Building a Decent Monk - Help! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Decent Monk - Help! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stormonu
05-01-07, 01:59 AM First of all, I'm DMing. I'm not so much looking for uber-optimization as for making a monk character that can hold its own. The party I'm playing has recently found themselves at odds with the Scarlett Brotherhood, and I don't seem to be doing a very good job at putting together monk opponents. (I've tried a monk tripper and a spring-attack monk; the damage output was poor on both at best, and they seemed to have an enormously hard time hitting).

Using primarily the PHB, PHB2 and Complete Warrior (and any other Complete books), what would be a good build for enemy monks of about 3rd level (generic "elite guards"), 5th level (minor masters) and 9th level (a major master). I also could use some help coming up with an interesting 15th level monk (The High Master/BBEG). I don't need complete stat write-outs, just a string of feats and/or tactics to make the monks decent in a combat against the group.

The monks, being from the Scarlett Brotherhood, all have to be human, of course.
Rerecros
05-01-07, 02:23 AM general monk tip: monks are not tanks.

The most obvious monk tactic is useing their speed and AC to single out the arcane spell caster.
Unless your enemy monks have non-monk support, they should stick to skirmish tactics (attack, retreat, attack, retreat...).
runestar
05-01-07, 02:35 AM Well, you will want to boost your AC first and foremost. Using the elite array gives you just AC:14(with 14dex and 15wis), and even a potion of mage armour boosts that to only 18. So you should favour hit-and-run tactics, since standing toe to toe with fighters is courting death.

Poison could work. Hit them, then run away. Let the poison do their work, then return when they are weaker.

I suppose you could give your monks a guisarme. Though they are not proficient, it at least lets them make an AoO against fighters moving in to hit them, and they can always drop it as a free action on their round to attack.

I was wondering about splashing 1 lv of other classes. Maybe sorc for spells like shield, ray of enfeeblement or chill touch? Cleric brings bless and divine favour. Rogue has sneak attack.
Guy42
05-01-07, 03:00 AM I suppose you could give your monks a guisarme. Though they are not proficient, it at least lets them make an AoO against fighters moving in to hit them, and they can always drop it as a free action on their round to attack.

Definitely go with this, they can still use kicks and such as unarmed attacks so you don't even need to drop it, and Guisarme tripping is nice if you are high enough to get improved trip.
The_Shaman
05-01-07, 03:02 AM Yes, a ninja-ish monk who stays hidden and attack with surprise might have the best chances. Barring that, they could try to go for acrobatics or skirmishing (possibly with the bounding assault feat for the BBEG), but they will have to be very careful with the terrain, else the warriors can attack or charge them. For evil monks, I wonder if some rogue levels aren't a good idea - even the much-maligned shuriken are good for sneak attack.
Gnarl
05-01-07, 03:11 AM You could try using non human monks too. Maybe a Harssaf or something like that (MM3).

What level are your PCs by the way? NPCs make very poor opponents after level 5-7.
Crispy_Spellthief
05-01-07, 04:30 AM Since hit and run attacks are a monk's best friend, the Spring Attack series is a good feat tree to consider, as is Versatile Unarmed Strike in the PB2, good for weapon type based DR. Dont forget, Bracers of Armor can help a monk's flagging AC, as pretty much the only AC item they can use.
tetebetson
05-01-07, 06:39 AM Race'sthe clasic Human, Elf or Halfling or go for Drow or Githzarai
Go for a grappling type monk,
Get wepon finnese so you can concentrate on dex and wis

Good feats, I think are superior unarmed strike and snap kick both from tomb of battle.
Skills , max out move silently ,tumble ,ballence and hide
Equipment, monk belt , gloves of dex.
Prestige class, Fist of Zouken (EPH) but you will need to max out concentration for this.
Ogg
05-01-07, 10:00 AM Yeah, AC is a monks friend. Yes, I've found their damage output is generally bad & they don't have the fighter's to hit so.

1) Weapon focus, unarmed combat. You're now +1.

2) Superior Unarmed Combat. You're damage dice go up in unarmed combat.

3) Make them work as a group. Most people forget to do this & hit them with a group of work alone guys.

That doesn't work.
Have a buffer with them who buffs them before combat. Some mage armor potions. Maybe a potion of protection from fire. A cat's grace & bull's endurace right before combat go a long way.

Have a combat expertise, dodge build guy. Look at the quarterstaff tree in Complete Warrior. Ok this is you're AC guy. His job is to tie up the tank. Give him a Protection from Fire if that's what the heros have been using mostly to take these guys down. Heck give one to all of them. Make the heroes have to change their strategy. If the players complain point out to them that the Brotherhood has ample oppotunity to see the damage after previous combats & are learning. This guy for sure should get the Bear's Endurance. Maybe a haste (+4 more AC).

Then you stick Leap Attack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus on another guy. He gets a potion of Improved Magic Fang before combat (or has someone cast it on him) so his unarmed weapons are like +5. His job is to do damage. Go get spellcasters. Want to make him even more killer? Multi-class in ranger (Feat in Complete Scoundrel to stack) favored enemy (fill in character race here) & give him Favored Power Attack too (CW). You combine that with Power Attack, Leap build you got a nuts damage output). This guy knows to avoid the guys in armor. Go for the softies.

Have him work with a multiclass rogue/monk or ninja who's job it is, is to sneak out of the shadows & flank whoever the damage dealer is fighting, tumble out of combat if he gets picked then hide & come back again.

Main thing is to work your guys like a team. A couple defensive blockers to step out first. Then your attackers hit. Have some healers in the eve's waiting, even if it's multi-class rogue/monks with cleric scrolls or wands (Use Magical Device is fun).

If you want to really make them work for it don't let them rest. That's when players have a tough time. Hit them & hit them again. Wear them down.
GreyEagle
05-01-07, 11:24 AM dodge, mobility and spring attack are your friends. Use your speed to get in, hit hard, and get back out before anyone knows whats going on. Also, stunning fist will save your life. Improved initiative also will help. Any item that boosts either your AC or your strength is good as well, but if you use spring attack AC isnt as big a problem. Strength should be your main concern. Improved Disarm and Trip, both monk bonus feats, are also extremely handy. If they cant hit you, they cant hurt you. As I said before, Strength should be primary since the more damage you deal the smaller the timeframe they have to be alive and hurting you.
Stormonu
05-01-07, 03:46 PM Thanks, most of the suggestions should really help. Don't know why I didn't think of splashing non-monks into the group; it doesn't make sense that EVERY member of the scarlet brotherhood would be monk-only, and it makes sense they would hire rogues, clerics and the likes (or take non-monk classes) to fill out their ranks.

One thing I do want to emphasis - the Scarlett Brotherhood is a racist group in that they seek the advancement of Suel humans and tend to be human-only. Going with non-human races for the actual (monk) members is out of the question, though I'm sure they wouldn't mind using other races as fodder.

P.S.: I've found Stunning Fist has a pathetic DC with NPCs and there's too much MAD going on to give them high Strength worth dealing out heavy damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stormonu 05-01-07, 01:59 AM	First of all, I'm DMing. I'm not so much looking for uber-optimization as for making a monk character that can hold its own. The party I'm playing has recently found themselves at odds with the Scarlett Brotherhood, and I don't seem to be doing a very good job at putting together monk opponents. (I've tried a monk tripper and a spring-attack monk; the damage output was poor on both at best, and they seemed to have an enormously hard time hitting). Using primarily the PHB, PHB2 and Complete Warrior (and any other Complete books), what would be a good build for enemy monks of about 3rd level (generic "elite guards"), 5th level (minor masters) and 9th level (a major master). I also could use some help coming up with an interesting 15th level monk (The High Master/BBEG). I don't need complete stat write-outs, just a string of feats and/or tactics to make the monks decent in a combat against the group. The monks, being from the Scarlett Brotherhood, all have to be human, of course.
Rerecros 05-01-07, 02:23 AM	general monk tip: monks are not tanks. The most obvious monk tactic is useing their speed and AC to single out the arcane spell caster. Unless your enemy monks have non-monk support, they should stick to skirmish tactics (attack, retreat, attack, retreat...).
runestar 05-01-07, 02:35 AM	Well, you will want to boost your AC first and foremost. Using the elite array gives you just AC:14(with 14dex and 15wis), and even a potion of mage armour boosts that to only 18. So you should favour hit-and-run tactics, since standing toe to toe with fighters is courting death. Poison could work. Hit them, then run away. Let the poison do their work, then return when they are weaker. I suppose you could give your monks a guisarme. Though they are not proficient, it at least lets them make an AoO against fighters moving in to hit them, and they can always drop it as a free action on their round to attack. I was wondering about splashing 1 lv of other classes. Maybe sorc for spells like shield, ray of enfeeblement or chill touch? Cleric brings bless and divine favour. Rogue has sneak attack.
Guy42 05-01-07, 03:00 AM	I suppose you could give your monks a guisarme. Though they are not proficient, it at least lets them make an AoO against fighters moving in to hit them, and they can always drop it as a free action on their round to attack. Definitely go with this, they can still use kicks and such as unarmed attacks so you don't even need to drop it, and Guisarme tripping is nice if you are high enough to get improved trip.
The_Shaman 05-01-07, 03:02 AM	Yes, a ninja-ish monk who stays hidden and attack with surprise might have the best chances. Barring that, they could try to go for acrobatics or skirmishing (possibly with the bounding assault feat for the BBEG), but they will have to be very careful with the terrain, else the warriors can attack or charge them. For evil monks, I wonder if some rogue levels aren't a good idea - even the much-maligned shuriken are good for sneak attack.
Gnarl 05-01-07, 03:11 AM	You could try using non human monks too. Maybe a Harssaf or something like that (MM3). What level are your PCs by the way? NPCs make very poor opponents after level 5-7.
Crispy_Spellthief 05-01-07, 04:30 AM	Since hit and run attacks are a monk's best friend, the Spring Attack series is a good feat tree to consider, as is Versatile Unarmed Strike in the PB2, good for weapon type based DR. Dont forget, Bracers of Armor can help a monk's flagging AC, as pretty much the only AC item they can use.
tetebetson 05-01-07, 06:39 AM	Race'sthe clasic Human, Elf or Halfling or go for Drow or Githzarai Go for a grappling type monk, Get wepon finnese so you can concentrate on dex and wis Good feats, I think are superior unarmed strike and snap kick both from tomb of battle. Skills , max out move silently ,tumble ,ballence and hide Equipment, monk belt , gloves of dex. Prestige class, Fist of Zouken (EPH) but you will need to max out concentration for this.
Ogg 05-01-07, 10:00 AM	Yeah, AC is a monks friend. Yes, I've found their damage output is generally bad & they don't have the fighter's to hit so. 1) Weapon focus, unarmed combat. You're now +1. 2) Superior Unarmed Combat. You're damage dice go up in unarmed combat. 3) Make them work as a group. Most people forget to do this & hit them with a group of work alone guys. That doesn't work. Have a buffer with them who buffs them before combat. Some mage armor potions. Maybe a potion of protection from fire. A cat's grace & bull's endurace right before combat go a long way. Have a combat expertise, dodge build guy. Look at the quarterstaff tree in Complete Warrior. Ok this is you're AC guy. His job is to tie up the tank. Give him a Protection from Fire if that's what the heros have been using mostly to take these guys down. Heck give one to all of them. Make the heroes have to change their strategy. If the players complain point out to them that the Brotherhood has ample oppotunity to see the damage after previous combats & are learning. This guy for sure should get the Bear's Endurance. Maybe a haste (+4 more AC). Then you stick Leap Attack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus on another guy. He gets a potion of Improved Magic Fang before combat (or has someone cast it on him) so his unarmed weapons are like +5. His job is to do damage. Go get spellcasters. Want to make him even more killer? Multi-class in ranger (Feat in Complete Scoundrel to stack) favored enemy (fill in character race here) & give him Favored Power Attack too (CW). You combine that with Power Attack, Leap build you got a nuts damage output). This guy knows to avoid the guys in armor. Go for the softies. Have him work with a multiclass rogue/monk or ninja who's job it is, is to sneak out of the shadows & flank whoever the damage dealer is fighting, tumble out of combat if he gets picked then hide & come back again. Main thing is to work your guys like a team. A couple defensive blockers to step out first. Then your attackers hit. Have some healers in the eve's waiting, even if it's multi-class rogue/monks with cleric scrolls or wands (Use Magical Device is fun). If you want to really make them work for it don't let them rest. That's when players have a tough time. Hit them & hit them again. Wear them down.
GreyEagle 05-01-07, 11:24 AM	dodge, mobility and spring attack are your friends. Use your speed to get in, hit hard, and get back out before anyone knows whats going on. Also, stunning fist will save your life. Improved initiative also will help. Any item that boosts either your AC or your strength is good as well, but if you use spring attack AC isnt as big a problem. Strength should be your main concern. Improved Disarm and Trip, both monk bonus feats, are also extremely handy. If they cant hit you, they cant hurt you. As I said before, Strength should be primary since the more damage you deal the smaller the timeframe they have to be alive and hurting you.
Stormonu 05-01-07, 03:46 PM	Thanks, most of the suggestions should really help. Don't know why I didn't think of splashing non-monks into the group; it doesn't make sense that EVERY member of the scarlet brotherhood would be monk-only, and it makes sense they would hire rogues, clerics and the likes (or take non-monk classes) to fill out their ranks. One thing I do want to emphasis - the Scarlett Brotherhood is a racist group in that they seek the advancement of Suel humans and tend to be human-only. Going with non-human races for the actual (monk) members is out of the question, though I'm sure they wouldn't mind using other races as fodder. P.S.: I've found Stunning Fist has a pathetic DC with NPCs and there's too much MAD going on to give them high Strength worth dealing out heavy damage.