Post/Author/DateTime	Post
3doorsfan 08-28-05, 09:43 PM	Ok it seems the consensus that the problem with the fighter is lack of feats exclusive to him, also lack of feat tree depth but how do we fix that? i mean anyone have good house feats or house tree feats?
RadicalTaoist 08-28-05, 10:10 PM	It's all in the feats. For starters, try feat synergies - say, you have Clever Wrestling and Giantbane, that gives you an additional cumulative +2 bonus to grapple for every size category your foe is larger than you. Stuff like that. Also, high level feats that are just that uber. For example: Combat Mastery You can fight as easily as walking. Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +16 Benefit: Once per round, you can forgo an attack roll for one attack you make and instead automatically treat the result as though you had rolled a 10. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Every time beyond the first you take this feat allows you to forgo a d20 roll for an automatic 10 once more per round. Flawless Combat Even your clumsiest strikes are shockingly accurate. Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +18 Benefit: Whenever you make a full attack, your attack with the lowest attack bonus (for example, the +5 attack out of a +20/+15/+10/+5 base attack bonus routine) gains a +5 bonus to hit. For example: If Regdar the 18th level fighter took this feat, and had a +10 to hit bonus to all his attacks from Strength and other such bonuses, his full attack routine would go like this: +28/+23/+18/+18 for to hit bonuses. If he had not taken the Flawless Combat feat, that last attack would have been made at a +13 bonus. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Every time you do, your lowest-bonus attack gains an additional +5. If you have two attacks at effectively the same attack bonus (such as if Regdar took the feat twice) then you choose which attack is affected (giving Regdar an attack routine of +28/+23/+23/+18). The bonus to hit from Flawless Combat stacks with itself. You may only take the Flawless Combat feat once for every six class levels you have. If you are a monster with no class levels, you may only take Flawless Combat once. If you are fighting with multiple weapons or have a natural attack routine, and you have two or more different weapons or natural attacks that share your lowest attack bonus, you may choose which weapon or natural attack gets the bonus from Flawless Combat. Stuff like that.
kalstrand 08-28-05, 11:21 PM	Those are quite nice but nothing prevents my Ranger/Barbarian/Paladin/Any full BAB Prc from taking it as written. Rather than BAB requirement make it 16 and 18 levels of fighter respectively.
Thorak 08-28-05, 11:58 PM	Any character can master a feat tree. Only the Fighter can master multiple trees with ease. The Fighter's strength isn't just feats. It's how the feats work with each other. The Fighter is capable of things that other classes simply, for the most part, are not.
RadicalTaoist 08-29-05, 09:05 AM	Those are quite nice but nothing prevents my Ranger/Barbarian/Paladin/Any full BAB Prc from taking it as written. Rather than BAB requirement make it 16 and 18 levels of fighter respectively. Note the Special section for each one. How many times can those other classes take those feats? How many times can the fighter? The Fighter's strength isn't just feats. It's how the feats work with each other. The Fighter is capable of things that other classes simply, for the most part, are not. We need more uber feat trees, because these feat combos do not give the fighter enough in the way of viable combat options. The fighter will not be able to bull rush the dragon. Neither will the barbarian. Neither will the mounted paladin. Taking feats for combat options that your foes can effectively ignore is not a good investment. This is why Complete Warrior and Races of Stone were such a kick in the pants for melee characters - they let us do new tricks and do it well. It doesn't start to even the balance vs. casters, and only helps a bit against the huge monsters, but you gotta begin somewhere.
q'afuu 08-29-05, 12:24 PM	Ok it seems the consensus that the problem with the fighter is lack of feats exclusive to him, also lack of feat tree depth. There's not even a consensus that the fighter has a problem to begin with, and I'd say that what most of those that do feel that way complain about most is that the fighter can't do a whole lot aside from fighting - IOW, it's the fighter's lack of skills. Personally, I find exclusive feats a dumb concept. If they're exclusive to a class, they should be class abilities. WotC realized as much when it comes to skills, feats are really the same in that regard. The fighter will not be able to bull rush the dragon. Neither will the barbarian. Neither will the mounted paladin. Taking feats for combat options that your foes can effectively ignore is not a good investment. Sucks for the barb and pally to have invested in improved bullrush then, doesn't it? If the fighter did so as well, he'll still have had plenty of feats left to improve his skills as an archer and maybe get something like Close-Quarters Fighting for when that dragon tries to gobble him up. That's the point Thorak is making above: depending on their own qualities, many foes can effectively ignore certain options a character may have thanks to his feat choices, but a decent-level fighter can have too many such options for the foe to be able to ignore them all. Not so for the non-fighter combat classes, who are usually much more specialized.
Thorak 08-29-05, 12:41 PM	We need more uber feat trees, because these feat combos do not give the fighter enough in the way of viable combat options. The fighter will not be able to bull rush the dragon. Neither will the barbarian. Neither will the mounted paladin. Taking feats for combat options that your foes can effectively ignore is not a good investment. This is why Complete Warrior and Races of Stone were such a kick in the pants for melee characters - they let us do new tricks and do it well. It doesn't start to even the balance vs. casters, and only helps a bit against the huge monsters, but you gotta begin somewhere. Actually, if I were a high-Strength Goliath fighter, enlarged, with improved bull rush, I'd have a good shot at bull rushing a large-huge dragon. If I were Enlarged, the huge dragon becomes relatively easy. Remember; the improved feats act like effective size increases. A +4 to trip is the same bonus you get for being Large.
Maraxus 08-29-05, 01:52 PM	Combat mastery seems to good, but I really like the concept of Flawess combat. Might be a question, if the bonus should be +3, +4 or +5, but I really like it. :) Other things: Superior Weapon focus: Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 16th. Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from (greater) Weapon Focus. Superior Weapon Specialization Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Superior Weapon focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 20th. Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls, including the one from Weapon Specialization (see below). Improved Spring attack Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, base attack bonus +11. Benefit: When making a spring attack, you can move up to your full movement both befor and after the attack. Normal: You have to split your movement on before and after the attack. Improved Whirlwind attack Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Improved Spring attack, Whirlwind attack, base attack bonus +11. Benefit: You can make a whirlwind attack as a standart action. Double Whirlwind attack Prerequisites: Dex 19, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind attack, base attack bonus +14. Benefit: You can make a whirlwind attack with both weapons, attacking ever target in reach with both weapons. Special: A character who has both Improved Whirlwind attack and Double Whirlwind attack can not use them at once. ... For now. There should also be some advanced feats at the end of the unarmed stuff, the power attack stuff and maybe one or two high level archery feats.
SauroGrenom 08-29-05, 03:48 PM	New more powerful feats, longer feat trees, and synergistic bonuses between feat trees are all well and good, but in my opinion complicated and rife with the possibility for munchkinship. What the really needs is class features that are unique and intrinsically unavailable to other classes. Some sort of armor or shield utilization that is a class feature would nicely compliment the flavor of the fighter. Also a bump un the BAB progression would do the trick, give the fighter +1.2BAB/level would make the fighters BAB progression unmatched by any other class of creature. Such a BAB increase is a simple modification and would give the fighter a real edge with increased number of attacks at earlier levels, and the fighter would finish with 5 attacks per round.
Maraxus 08-29-05, 03:59 PM	Then go ahad and make that class. But don't call it fighter, to avoid confusion. Seriously, did you know, that you don't need a single fighter in your game? There is a barbarien, a paladin, a swashbuckler (or what the name was) etc. There is a lot of prestige classes, for every flavor. The fighter is basicly good for the following thinks: -Base to build new (prestige) classes on. -PrC aspirant, get into your PrC as soon as possible. -Class for those who don't want to choose a more narrow concept. So basicly, the fighter is the fighter because he has no special abilities. If you build fighters with abilities, don't name them fighters.
kalstrand 08-29-05, 05:46 PM	Note the Special section for each one. How many times can those other classes take those feats? How many times can the fighter? Any of them can take one or the other once while the fighter can have Combat mastery up to 3 times or Combat Mastery and Flawless Combat up to twice or some combination of the 2 but Flawless Combat no more than twice.
RadicalTaoist 08-29-05, 11:02 PM	Sucks for the barb and pally to have invested in improved bullrush then, doesn't it? If the fighter did so as well, he'll still have had plenty of feats left to improve his skills as an archer and maybe get something like Close-Quarters Fighting for when that dragon tries to gobble him up. That's the point Thorak is making above: depending on their own qualities, many foes can effectively ignore certain options a character may have thanks to his feat choices, but a decent-level fighter can have too many such options for the foe to be able to ignore them all. Not so for the non-fighter combat classes, who are usually much more specialized. Leaving the fighter with options that are only slightly more useless then they are in the hands of his specialized melee comrades. Unless they, like the fighter, had the sense to take useful melee feats like Close-Quarters Fighting. Note to everyone: more feats like CQF and the Expanded Psionics Handbook's Stand Still, which have bonuses and effects dependent on the amount of damage you do, are wicked useful in helping melee characters and badly needed. I understand Thorak's point. Yes the fighter has options. A lot of those options are like a lot of the options of many of the other fighter classes: at the mid to high levels, a waste of time except in specific situations. I ask for stronger options. That's all. BTW: A barb with Improved Bull Rush can take Shock Trooper. I love that feat. Actually, if I were a high-Strength Goliath fighter, enlarged, with improved bull rush, I'd have a good shot at bull rushing a large-huge dragon. If I were Enlarged, the huge dragon becomes relatively easy. Remember; the improved feats act like effective size increases. A +4 to trip is the same bonus you get for being Large. What you say about being a Goliath reminds me of what I've said about melee characters' dependence on form. Why not Polymorph the human fighter? Oh wait, that reminds me of what I've said about melee characters being a drain on the rest of the party at mid-to-high levels. That still doesn't leave the Goliath Fighter much ahead of the Goliath Barbarian, and leaves them both behind the Marrusault Fighter and the Psychic Warrior of any race (who, due to his self-sufficiency, is what I consider to be the best-balanced melee class the game knows right now). Combat mastery seems to good, but I really like the concept of Flawess combat. Might be a question, if the bonus should be +3, +4 or +5, but I really like it. :) Hey, I said the feats really had to be that uber to pull the fighter's bacon out of the fire. I like your Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack feats, I don't really think better Weapon Specializations are needed though. No point in making the fighter even more dependent on his weapon - why not give him stuff like the fighting style feats in Complete Warrior? Any of them can take one or the other once while the fighter can have Combat mastery up to 3 times or Combat Mastery and Flawless Combat up to twice or some combination of the 2 but Flawless Combat no more than twice. Precisely my point. Advantage: Fighter.
seng3 08-30-05, 01:53 AM	Just some thoughts... to make Fighter more able to contribute to a party as compare to a Wiz, make some feats with progression. Spells have progression, why not feats? But not at the per level like spells... Eg.. Weapon focus, change bonus to +1 at bab 1, +2 at bab7, +3 at bab 11. Gr Weapon Focus, +1 at bab 8, +2 at bab13, +3 at bab17 This would give some bonus to allow them to better able to do Trip, disarm, sunder, grapple.. Also, give a straight weapon bonus to damage, instead of weapon spec.. say +1 dmg/2 Fighter level (to any weapon including unarmed strike) this would make fighter able to deal some damage vs those high HD creature, even for a Dex base built. Of course, to do that , you must also boost the damage of the barbarian and ranger to match. (something which I am working on in my campaign. I am matching the Fighters and other non-casters against the Full casters, not among themselves). Saving throw should not be changed. All classes have weak saves except the monk. The Paladin's divine grace is the exception rather than the norm, so is the Barbarian's rage bonus to Will save. Wiz and even Cleric have weak saves. If the weak saves is really that bad, it should be addressed as an issue for all classes and not just the Fighter. Spot and Listen is something everyone have. A Fighter should be alert, but even more so for a Wizard for him to survive.So Ranger is the exceptional alert among the other classes, not that the other classes are weak at it. If everyone have it as a class skills, Rogue and Ranger would have their stealth crippled.. They will need to have super hide and move silently bonus to balance and we will be back to square one...
Nyferto 08-30-05, 04:53 AM	Who wants to compare to an overpowered peice of trash like the Wizard? You want to fix the fighter, learn to understand and use the existing one. You don't add longer chains, you make better combinations. You don't add more combat power, you round them out. You don't add more skills for them to use, you make their existing skills more useful.
runestar 08-30-05, 07:09 AM	It it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Thorak 08-30-05, 08:09 AM	What you say about being a Goliath reminds me of what I've said about melee characters' dependence on form. Why not Polymorph the human fighter? Oh wait, that reminds me of what I've said about melee characters being a drain on the rest of the party at mid-to-high levels. That still doesn't leave the Goliath Fighter much ahead of the Goliath Barbarian, and leaves them both behind the Marrusault Fighter and the Psychic Warrior of any race (who, due to his self-sufficiency, is what I consider to be the best-balanced melee class the game knows right now). The Fighter is still a vastly different class than the Barbarian, and while melee characters are dependent on other classes, so are the other classes dependent on having a meat shield to protect them, especially wizards and sorcerors. That's called being in a party. Heaven forbid you work together.
Far_Traveler 08-30-05, 08:23 AM	I made a thread that might adress this situation http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=485695
RadicalTaoist 08-30-05, 07:46 PM	You don't add longer chains, you make better combinations. You don't add more combat power, you round them out. You don't add more skills for them to use, you make their existing skills more useful. Yes, yes, and yes! Although I like to make Fighter feats that add skills to the Fighter class list. If they want more skill points, I point them to Nymph's Kiss and Open Minded. The Fighter is still a vastly different class than the Barbarian, and while melee characters are dependent on other classes, so are the other classes dependent on having a meat shield to protect them, especially wizards and sorcerors. That's called being in a party. Heaven forbid you work together. There's working together and then there's lugging dead weight. There is no specific point in play where the melee characters become dead weight. It is a gradual process. But it happens eventually.
Lawrence 08-30-05, 09:52 PM	You remind me of a frind of mine Tao, hehe. What we wanted (and personally found worthwhile) was a way to make it so the fighter can impress in as much of a way as a wizard or sorcerer or any other full blooded caster could. This didn't involve comparing to their damage, but comparing in way a spell makes a wizard/sorcerer flashy: the 'fireball' for fighters. (or in this case - the meteorswarm for fighters). It's not so much fixing as it is balancing. Remember what happened to the ranger? 3.0 it made people cry. 3.5 most people cried from a sword or an arrow in the crotch since the ranger can now learn one of two styles AND choose feats of their choice. (or learn both styles). Not to mention a few extra perks the ranger got to go for their flavor. Fighter-wise, since they focus in feats, the ideal way of giving them more flourish was with feats they could take more easily than others. In a way it makes them fighter friendly (though some things could still be taken by other classes - it would just take longer). For example: (our version of combat mastery, sotospeak) Weapon Mastery req: character lvl 15 OR Fighter 10 Bene:You gain a special effect related to the weapon (s) of your profession as feats. additionally, +2 to attack with chosen weapon Achilles Heel req: Sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish OR equivalent of related. power attack, improved sunder. bene: A Rogue/whatever may make an sneak attack/etc against those normally immune to such attacks. By making a sundering attempt, you can attempt to cause the desired by 'breaking' through the object. Apply a sunder as you would against a weapon or shield (even if its armor, a construct, undead, etc). This is a touch attack. Roll damage against the hardness with sneak attack, etc, etc. If you suceed in beating the hardness, then a) If used on fortified armor or similar, you can reduce the fortified ability by one step per successful strike. (note you can simply repair the armor to return the fortified without renchanting. Alternatively, you can damage the armor outright until you destroy it. b) If used on undead or constructs, the damage applied (after the construct/undead hardness and DR (if relevant)) goes towards heir HP. Note this does not atually make them vulnerable to such attacks, simply to do so through a sunder. c) if weapons or shields, treat as a normal sunder plus the usual benefits from improved sunder, etc. No sneak attack damage applied. Traumatizing Blow note: rogues or others with a sneak attack ability of at least 6d6 may take this without the weapon mastery feat. req: improved initiative, death blow bene: You can lower the massive damage requirement for making a fortitude save against larger creatures. For every -2 penalty you take to your attack, the massive damage threshold of your opponent decreases by 5. You can only take take them down to your threshhold limit (50 for medium, 40 for small), and you can't use this ability on creatures your size or smaller. Additionally, a creature struck by a traumatizing that makes their massive damage save may become shakened. the DC is half the damage dealt. If they are within your level + 3 the effect kicks in. Otherwise it does not apply. This is mind affecting fear, so immunity to fear still applies. special: those with Frightful Presence may reuse the ability on those who saved against it earlier if they survive the massive damage. Normal Frightful Presence rules still apply. Heavy Arms req: Close-quarter fighting, monkey grip, endurance, bene: you can use large weapons one handed without penalty (provided you have exotic proficiency). Additionally, you wield even larger weapons as if you were one size larger at a -2 penalty. THe Monkey Grip feat applies in this instance as well, so you could, in theory, use a huge weapon two handed (at a -4 penalty). Finding a scabbard that fits on your back is your own problem. special: this stacks with oversized weapon fighting epic feat. - - - Mind you - these are heavily rough draft and we haven't worked on them in ages. The Achilles Heel feat should probably be modified in a way so that fighters or fighter types can critical certain ones immune, or else a fighter versions made. But nyeh, that's just 2 silver coins from me *puts them in the tin*
seng3 08-31-05, 02:25 AM	What we wanted (and personally found worthwhile) was a way to make it so the fighter can impress in as much of a way as a wizard or sorcerer or any other full blooded caster could. This didn't involve comparing to their damage, but comparing in way a spell makes a wizard/sorcerer flashy: the 'fireball' for fighters. (or in this case - the meteorswarm for fighters). Thats a very nice way of putting it! :w00t: I guess the problem with fighter fixing threads is we all have different ideas of fixing it. To make fighter impressive, they would have to do things like those you see in anime or at least Street FIghter! To me I break the problem into the following: lack of effective abilty to handle single or few powerful(and usu really big) monsters as compare to casters with save or die spells which suceed more than 50% of the time. Poor crowd control the best and only good one is a super size spike chain with 60' reach... Spike chain should not be the one and only option... Enlarge and shapechange to bigger size should not be mandatory for Fighters to be effective.... Colossal fighter should not be the only solution... Even then, a colossal Fighter can only cover 30', unlike spells which affects area by level like Wind Wall, control Wind 40 ft./level, Control Weather (2 mile), all the Walls, FireStorm 2x10' /level, Horrid Wilting(creatures within 60'), Meteor Swarm, Repulsion (up to 10' per level), Reverse Gravity 10' cube /level, Spike Growth and Spike Stone 20' sq /level, Sunburst 80' rad, Rock to Mud 2x10/level, I am not saying that Fighters should have these type of coverage, but there is plenty of room to give more... Poor save all classes have it. not exactly a Fighter issue. should be done as its own thread. Bad skill list While I agree that Fighters have bad skill list, spot and listen should not be available to everyone. The Wiz and worldly Sor would need them for their very survival... Priest who meditates should be alert, so are Druid who are one with nature.... the list would not end. This will need a skill revamp... I am not going to touch on this.... My suggestions: inabilty to handle single or few powerful(and usu really big) monsters Increase the damage of Fighters (include Ranger, Barbarian. Paladin is enuff with smite) If a Wizard can take care of 1 in 1-2 round, Warrior should not take more than 3-5 rounds. Give some huge bonus to bab or oppose roll to handle the super strength monsters are having ... Crowd control Fighters can be nowhere near that of casters, but shoul be able to have some and should be better at it since the area of influence is smaller... Higher Feat chains that allow better crowd control... Imp multiple shot is a good exaple Ki reach(increase reach without increasing size) More area effects like the whirlwind feat... Feats should scale with level or bab, if a level one magic missile can deal 5d4 at level 10, some low level feats should have better benefits at higher levels. This is esp. for higher level feats which are accessible by few.. Of course not all feats should scale, just like not all spells scales. Since most would agree that Fighters are falling behind from about level 9-12 onwards, scaling will help preserve the low level balance which everyone already agrees and fill up the gap at higher levels. Feats should be weaker than spells, since spells got limited use. However, the gap should not be that big. Although feats are unlimited, its usually the first couple of rounds of encounters that determines the outcome. we also have the guideline of 4 encounter per day of equal CR. Feats should be about 1/4 to 1/8 the power of some spells. Furthermore, casters at high level don't really run out of spells. Not to forget, even with all these boost, casters still have utility, divination and other magic which make them always important and more versatile than the Fighters. I am only trying to let Fighters make his days abit more often. Casters will always dominate, maybe just not all the time in battle. PEACE