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Post/Author/DateTime Post
LoneFlame
08-02-07, 10:15 AM the varianted Rogue I use in place of the Fighter.

Lv BaB Fort Ref Will Special
1 0 0 2 0 Fighter Feat, Trapfinding
2 1 0 3 0 Fighter Feat, Evasion
3 2 1 3 1 Trapsense +1
4 3 1 4 1 Fighter Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5 3 1 4 1
6 4 2 5 2 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +2
7 5 2 5 2
8 6/1 2 6 2 Fighter Feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 6/1 3 6 3 Trapsense +3
10 7/2 3 7 3 Fighter Feat, Special Ability
11 8/3 3 7 3
12 9/4 4 8 4 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +4
13 9/4 4 8 4 Special Ability
14 10/5 4 9 4 Fighter Feat
15 11/6/1 5 9 5 Trapsense +5
16 12/7/2 5 10 5 Fighter Feat, Special Ability
17 12/7/2 5 10 5
18 13/8/3 6 11 6 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +6
19 14/9/4 6 11 6 Special Ability
20 15/10/5 6 12 6 Fighter Feat

Hit dice: d8
Skill Points: 6 + Int Mod
Weapons: Simple, Hand Crossbow, Longsword, Shortsword, Shortbow
Armor: Light Armor, no shields
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Nature, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform,
Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope

Fighter Feat: Gains a fighter Fighter feat at lv 1.
Then gains another fighter feat at every even class lv

Trapfinding: As the Rogue ability.

Evasion: As the Rogue/Monk ability

Trapsense: Gains pluses on Saves vs attacks and dodging attacks made by traps.
These bonuses increase as your class lv goes up.

Uncanny Dodge: Able to keep Dex bonus to AC when caught Flat-footed

Imp. Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue Ability

Special Ability: At lv 10 and every 3 lvs afterwards pick a special ability from the following List:
Camouflage: As the Ranger ability
Defense Roll: As the Rogue special ability
Feat: Pick a character feat you meet the requirements for
Hide in Plain Sight: As the Ranger ability.
Requires Camoflage
Improved Evasion: As the Rogue special ability
Mettle: On something that has a partial effect on a successful Fort or Will, ignore that
partial effect on a successful save(failure still causes you to take the full effect).
Requires: Slippery Mind
Opportunist: As the Rogue special ability
Skill Mastery: As the Rogue special ability
Slippery Mind: As the Rogue special ability
Woodland Stride: As the Ranger ability

How I did this...

1) Lower the Skill Points to 6 + Int Mod to get the d8 for Hit Dice(it is acceptable to instead lower it to 4 + Int mod to get a d10, but that really depends on your needs).

2) Fighter Feat variant in Unearthed Arcana to get the Fighter Feats.

3) Wilderness Rogue was thrown in for some different skills, but mostly for Woodland Stride, Camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight.

4) Lastly, for hell of it, I traded out Rapier(the Rogue's most powerful melee weapon) for Longsword(a weapon that is not as power as the Rapier with the right feats, but is a bit more common & has a little more punch to it than the Shortsword)

The end result is a melee class that, by the sum of its parts, is overall better than the Fighter. Better skills and better class features. Sure, doesn't have as good of a Base Attack Bonus, but it'll still bring on some hurt and is a lot more useful than a Fighter.

EDIT: I'm currently working on some ideas to get full base attack progression(of course sacrificing something for it). If I pull it off, then the need to revamp the Fighter will be undeniable.
Meyer_William
08-02-07, 12:16 PM the varianted Rogue I use in place of the Fighter.
How I did this...

1) Lower the Skill Points to 6 + Int Mod to get the d8 for Hit Dice(it is acceptable to instead lower it to 4 + Int mod to get a d10, but that really depends on your needs).

How are you trading skill points for HD? This is a house rule -- correct?
LoneFlame
08-02-07, 12:21 PM Afraid so. Not a book idea, but it isn't a broken concept.
Meyer_William
08-02-07, 12:26 PM Afraid so. Not a book idea, but it isn't a broken concept.

Unfortunately, using a house-ruled variant to prove lack-of-uniqueness isn't valid.
LoneFlame
08-02-07, 01:05 PM I don't recall saying anything about uniqueness in the first place. I was merely pointing out a substitute for the Fighter that has(in the few trial runs of it) out-matched the Fighter.

Though, that other classes can pick up the Fighter Feats(which is the only class feature of the Fighter) alone proves that the Fighter needs a little something extra(and that is of course, before you take into account the weakness of character feats being the only class feature of something).
Wraithwin
08-02-07, 01:25 PM Note that the variant says they "Gain feats as a Fighter" - not that they count as a Fighter for feat requirements. Meaning they couldn't get Weapon Specialization or any other thing that depended on an effective Fighter level. This is just by the variant itself.

If you're going to up the HD, I would tank the skills to 4+.
You're losing a lot of proficiencies, which are the bread-and-butter of the Fighter class... not to mention BAB. While this sounds sweet as a whole, and in fact is a great compromise between Fighter and Rogue, it is by no means a replacement for either of them.

If nobody else in the party want to play a Fighter or Rogue, this would be decent for one character to pick up both archetypes... But it will leave them wanting in either direction.

If you're simply trying to form a remake of Fighter, you're like person 100,000 in line. LOL - But this isn't a bad way of thinking about it, really.

Here's another way you could do it;
Keep the Fighter's skill list, but let them pick two physical skills (ones that use STR, DEX or CON) to symbolize their style, and add them to their class skill list. Perhaps increase their skill points to 4+Int at each level, which really isn't even a noteworthy improvement for a class like the Fighter - they're still limited in skills even with the above suggestion.

Granting them Evasion and Trap Sense wouldn't make sense for a Fighter (unless you weren't going for a variant fighter), but the thought behind special abilities is a good one. Perhaps come up with a list of "Fighter Special Abilities". Then for every level they would get a Bonus Feat, starting at 8th, change the entry to "Bonus Feat or Fighter Special Ability". If you want a really easy list for this, you can always go to CrystalKeep's class variant compilation and make each of the Fighter variant special abilities open to the fighter as a whole for this purpose. Maybe come up with a few others. :twocents:
LoneFlame
08-02-07, 02:29 PM If you're simply trying to form a remake of Fighter, you're like person 100,000 in line. LOL - But this isn't a bad way of thinking about it, really.
More like number 123,478.

Anywayz, this idea started out as a variant Rogue that could do more in combat against a larger variety of foes. For a while, I was using it as a stealth commando type class. After doing a bunch of stuff with trying to tweak the Fighter, it occurred to me that a few more tweaks to this idea would make it a good substitute for the Fighter(though I think that the reworked (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=887674) version I've thrown together is a good fix).

The lack of Base Attack is a problem that I'm working on. The AC weakness is a bit of a problem, but in the long run, some good light armor is ultimately better than heavy armor.

The real drawback is a lack of proficiencies. However, the really great weapons(like Fullblade, Orc Shotput, and Greatcrossbow) require special proficiencies anyway, so it's not that bad of a loss. So, your heavy damage damage guys will be spending the feats anyway.

Lack of shields kinda sucks, but a 2-handed weapon or 2-weapon fighting guy doesn't care too much about shields.

Essentially, most of the drawbacks to this class are either minimal or easily covered with taking a dip lv in one other class. By itself, though, it can replace the Fighter in every aspect except for being a heavy armor brick, but other classes already do that better anyway.

Though, I would honestly rather play this as a good compromise between Fighter and Rogue for a player that wants some more versatility than a replacement for the two.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LoneFlame 08-02-07, 10:15 AM	the varianted Rogue I use in place of the Fighter. Lv BaB Fort Ref Will Special 1 0 0 2 0 Fighter Feat, Trapfinding 2 1 0 3 0 Fighter Feat, Evasion 3 2 1 3 1 Trapsense +1 4 3 1 4 1 Fighter Feat, Uncanny Dodge 5 3 1 4 1 6 4 2 5 2 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +2 7 5 2 5 2 8 6/1 2 6 2 Fighter Feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge 9 6/1 3 6 3 Trapsense +3 10 7/2 3 7 3 Fighter Feat, Special Ability 11 8/3 3 7 3 12 9/4 4 8 4 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +4 13 9/4 4 8 4 Special Ability 14 10/5 4 9 4 Fighter Feat 15 11/6/1 5 9 5 Trapsense +5 16 12/7/2 5 10 5 Fighter Feat, Special Ability 17 12/7/2 5 10 5 18 13/8/3 6 11 6 Fighter Feat, Trapsense +6 19 14/9/4 6 11 6 Special Ability 20 15/10/5 6 12 6 Fighter Feat Hit dice: d8 Skill Points: 6 + Int Mod Weapons: Simple, Hand Crossbow, Longsword, Shortsword, Shortbow Armor: Light Armor, no shields Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Nature, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope Fighter Feat: Gains a fighter Fighter feat at lv 1. Then gains another fighter feat at every even class lv Trapfinding: As the Rogue ability. Evasion: As the Rogue/Monk ability Trapsense: Gains pluses on Saves vs attacks and dodging attacks made by traps. These bonuses increase as your class lv goes up. Uncanny Dodge: Able to keep Dex bonus to AC when caught Flat-footed Imp. Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue Ability Special Ability: At lv 10 and every 3 lvs afterwards pick a special ability from the following List: Camouflage: As the Ranger ability Defense Roll: As the Rogue special ability Feat: Pick a character feat you meet the requirements for Hide in Plain Sight: As the Ranger ability. Requires Camoflage Improved Evasion: As the Rogue special ability Mettle: On something that has a partial effect on a successful Fort or Will, ignore that partial effect on a successful save(failure still causes you to take the full effect). Requires: Slippery Mind Opportunist: As the Rogue special ability Skill Mastery: As the Rogue special ability Slippery Mind: As the Rogue special ability Woodland Stride: As the Ranger ability How I did this... 1) Lower the Skill Points to 6 + Int Mod to get the d8 for Hit Dice(it is acceptable to instead lower it to 4 + Int mod to get a d10, but that really depends on your needs). 2) Fighter Feat variant in Unearthed Arcana to get the Fighter Feats. 3) Wilderness Rogue was thrown in for some different skills, but mostly for Woodland Stride, Camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight. 4) Lastly, for hell of it, I traded out Rapier(the Rogue's most powerful melee weapon) for Longsword(a weapon that is not as power as the Rapier with the right feats, but is a bit more common & has a little more punch to it than the Shortsword) The end result is a melee class that, by the sum of its parts, is overall better than the Fighter. Better skills and better class features. Sure, doesn't have as good of a Base Attack Bonus, but it'll still bring on some hurt and is a lot more useful than a Fighter. EDIT: I'm currently working on some ideas to get full base attack progression(of course sacrificing something for it). If I pull it off, then the need to revamp the Fighter will be undeniable.
Meyer_William 08-02-07, 12:16 PM	the varianted Rogue I use in place of the Fighter. How I did this... 1) Lower the Skill Points to 6 + Int Mod to get the d8 for Hit Dice(it is acceptable to instead lower it to 4 + Int mod to get a d10, but that really depends on your needs). How are you trading skill points for HD? This is a house rule -- correct?
LoneFlame 08-02-07, 12:21 PM	Afraid so. Not a book idea, but it isn't a broken concept.
Meyer_William 08-02-07, 12:26 PM	Afraid so. Not a book idea, but it isn't a broken concept. Unfortunately, using a house-ruled variant to prove lack-of-uniqueness isn't valid.
LoneFlame 08-02-07, 01:05 PM	I don't recall saying anything about uniqueness in the first place. I was merely pointing out a substitute for the Fighter that has(in the few trial runs of it) out-matched the Fighter. Though, that other classes can pick up the Fighter Feats(which is the only class feature of the Fighter) alone proves that the Fighter needs a little something extra(and that is of course, before you take into account the weakness of character feats being the only class feature of something).
Wraithwin 08-02-07, 01:25 PM	Note that the variant says they "Gain feats as a Fighter" - not that they count as a Fighter for feat requirements. Meaning they couldn't get Weapon Specialization or any other thing that depended on an effective Fighter level. This is just by the variant itself. If you're going to up the HD, I would tank the skills to 4+. You're losing a lot of proficiencies, which are the bread-and-butter of the Fighter class... not to mention BAB. While this sounds sweet as a whole, and in fact is a great compromise between Fighter and Rogue, it is by no means a replacement for either of them. If nobody else in the party want to play a Fighter or Rogue, this would be decent for one character to pick up both archetypes... But it will leave them wanting in either direction. If you're simply trying to form a remake of Fighter, you're like person 100,000 in line. LOL - But this isn't a bad way of thinking about it, really. Here's another way you could do it; Keep the Fighter's skill list, but let them pick two physical skills (ones that use STR, DEX or CON) to symbolize their style, and add them to their class skill list. Perhaps increase their skill points to 4+Int at each level, which really isn't even a noteworthy improvement for a class like the Fighter - they're still limited in skills even with the above suggestion. Granting them Evasion and Trap Sense wouldn't make sense for a Fighter (unless you weren't going for a variant fighter), but the thought behind special abilities is a good one. Perhaps come up with a list of "Fighter Special Abilities". Then for every level they would get a Bonus Feat, starting at 8th, change the entry to "Bonus Feat or Fighter Special Ability". If you want a really easy list for this, you can always go to CrystalKeep's class variant compilation and make each of the Fighter variant special abilities open to the fighter as a whole for this purpose. Maybe come up with a few others. :twocents:
LoneFlame 08-02-07, 02:29 PM	If you're simply trying to form a remake of Fighter, you're like person 100,000 in line. LOL - But this isn't a bad way of thinking about it, really. More like number 123,478. Anywayz, this idea started out as a variant Rogue that could do more in combat against a larger variety of foes. For a while, I was using it as a stealth commando type class. After doing a bunch of stuff with trying to tweak the Fighter, it occurred to me that a few more tweaks to this idea would make it a good substitute for the Fighter(though I think that the reworked (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=887674) version I've thrown together is a good fix). The lack of Base Attack is a problem that I'm working on. The AC weakness is a bit of a problem, but in the long run, some good light armor is ultimately better than heavy armor. The real drawback is a lack of proficiencies. However, the really great weapons(like Fullblade, Orc Shotput, and Greatcrossbow) require special proficiencies anyway, so it's not that bad of a loss. So, your heavy damage damage guys will be spending the feats anyway. Lack of shields kinda sucks, but a 2-handed weapon or 2-weapon fighting guy doesn't care too much about shields. Essentially, most of the drawbacks to this class are either minimal or easily covered with taking a dip lv in one other class. By itself, though, it can replace the Fighter in every aspect except for being a heavy armor brick, but other classes already do that better anyway. Though, I would honestly rather play this as a good compromise between Fighter and Rogue for a player that wants some more versatility than a replacement for the two.