C-Zilla questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

C-Zilla questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dannar
02-15-08, 02:51 PM 1.) Campaign is Undead Heavy, so are there any tweaks I should make to the standard build

2.) Is there any point taking any feats other than Divine metamagic, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, and a whole bunch of Extra Turning Feats?
Sinfire Titan
02-15-08, 03:01 PM 1: Radiant Servant of Pelor.

2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half.
LSMFT
02-15-08, 03:11 PM Answer 1: Against undead, you have powerful tools like your spells and Turning, so, you can do quite well without doing much.

Answer 2: That is a very powerful way to go, but if it is undead heavy, you might gain more from your Turn attempts by using them as they were intended.
dman11235
02-15-08, 03:13 PM Nightsticks are your friend (LM). They can also replace the need for Extra Turning.

Other than that, just go with your gut. Touch of Healing (CChamp) would also be nice to have, to extend your healing. Some domain feats are also nice, in particular Animal Devotion (strength boost!), Knowledge (damage and attack), Protection, Sun. Travel is all around nice. Augment Healing also extends your healing. As Sinfire said, RSoP kills undead. It also gets you more turn attempts to use.

EDIT: Dang it LSMFT, now you're ninja'ing me! I wouldn't use turning as intended after the early levels. Undead HD scale too fast for it to be of use.

EDIT take 2: Sunburst and Sunbeam are great spells to use against undead.
LSMFT
02-15-08, 03:35 PM :D

When I think “undead heavy” it is along the lines of a lich-king with masses of animated, created, and summoned undead. Things like Turn attempts tend to cut through all those lower level minions pretty easily, and as such, everyone, including the cleric, spends fewer resources trying to wade through them all.

Against your BBEG, no, turning is probably not going to work.
dman11235
02-15-08, 03:39 PM Even the "low level" minions can have high HD. My party (in an undead heavy campaign: I was a RSoP) was facing "the blighter" (he's really annoying in that he just doesn't die) and he had a couple of skeletons. Was I able to turn them? No, not really. Even with a 20 followed by 3 6s, I wouldn't have been able to. BTW, I believe they were polar bear skeletons. They managed to kill me. They needed to roll a 17 or higher to hit, and it rended me. I had 100 HP left. Only took one of them, the other had died.
Sinfire Titan
02-15-08, 03:42 PM :D

When I think “undead heavy” it is along the lines of a lich-king with masses of animated, created, and summoned undead. Things like Turn attempts tend to cut through all those lower level minions pretty easily, and as such, everyone, including the cleric, spends fewer resources trying to wade through them all.

Against your BBEG, no, turning is probably not going to work.

I hear undead, and I think Zombies.

And when I think Zombies, I think about my friend, Mark. And his greatest pet peeve.

"You mean like the zombies from 28 Days Later?"

THEY'RE NOT ZOMBIES! THEY'RE RAGE-INFECTED PEOPLE!

Makes me laugh every time.
Dannar
02-15-08, 03:50 PM When I say "Undead Heavy" I mean Ravenloft, preferring to avoid metagaming, without being set up for killing demons specifically (or some other great but useless cleric setup that would be worthless against undead)
JamesMaissen
02-15-08, 05:46 PM Nightsticks are your friend (LM). They can also replace the need for Extra Turning.

Nightsticks don't stack. Nor do they give you extra turns, but rather raise the number of turn attempts a day that you have.. much like an eagle's splendor spell does when cast upon you. The number of turn attempts that you have used for the day still accrue.

There are a few feats from Libris Mortis you might be interested in that delay the effects of negative levels. Could be quite useful for a cleric who's likely to be seen as the biggest threat.

-James
dman11235
02-15-08, 05:51 PM They give you four more turn attempts per day. Nothing saying that it is a bonus of some sort, so it's like getting a platinum piece and then another. It just gives you more turn attempts.
archerpwr
02-15-08, 05:53 PM 2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half.

Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire!
dman11235
02-15-08, 05:55 PM You know, never stated that it was a good catch either Sinfire. Good job.
Jaxgaret
02-15-08, 05:58 PM Yeah, Residual Magic is an awesome feat for metamagics with large spell level adjustments.
StevenO
02-15-08, 06:25 PM In addition to the Radiant Servant of Pelor I also like the Sacred Exorcist PrC although getting it may be difficult in Ravenloft. It is anti-possession which can be important against certain types of undead plus it can gain combat bonuses against undead and a Consecreated Presence which can be very nice against undead.
dman11235
02-15-08, 06:28 PM Doesn't it also have full casting? That's the important thing right there.
Dannar
02-15-08, 06:33 PM Nightsticks don't stack. Nor do they give you extra turns, but rather raise the number of turn attempts a day that you have.. much like an eagle's splendor spell does when cast upon you. The number of turn attempts that you have used for the day still accrue.

There are a few feats from Libris Mortis you might be interested in that delay the effects of negative levels. Could be quite useful for a cleric who's likely to be seen as the biggest threat.

-James

I already know my DM will only allow a single Nightstick.

*Edit* What's more useful: 2 levels of Paladin, before heading into Cleric, or just straight cleric?

At 6th Level, stated out on 4d6 rolls:

Human

STR 11
DEX 17(+1 level bump 18)
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 20
CHA 18

I like having the two levels of Paladin for the soul benefit of getting a boost to my saves.

Starting Gold 13,000

Armor: +1 Chain Shirt of Negative Energy Protection (+1 bonus, Magic of Faerun) (can't get Death Ward because max gold on a single item is 5k starting out)
Shield: +1 Heavy Steel Shield
Weapons: Heavy Mace +1, Silvered Heavy Mace
Head: Phylactery of Faithfulness ("Necessary" According to my DM)
Neck: Periapt of Wisdom +2
StevenO
02-15-08, 08:17 PM Doesn't it also have full casting? That's the important thing right there.
The Sacred Exorcist? Of course it has full spellcasting increases for EITHER type of spellcasting. It is one of those classes I'd almost alway consider for my LG spellcasters.

Stats of 11,17,13,14,20,18? Those certainly don't look like your standard 4d6 drop lowest. Perhaps somebody forgot about the "drop lowest" part as dropping three points off of each of those would look a lot closer to what one should get.

Although a couple levels of Paladin leading into cleric can work a straight Cleric 6 should be more powerful. With a CHA 18 AND WIS 20 it may not be such a bad idea although the delay is spellcasting still hurts.
JamesMaissen
02-15-08, 09:04 PM *Edit* What's more useful: 2 levels of Paladin, before heading into Cleric, or just straight cleric?

Straight cleric. Consider full spell casting PrCs.

As to gear, consider consumables over a magic weapon or shield. Pick those up later.

Also note that with weapon and shield you can't cast spells with somatic components (there is a feat that obviates this).

-James
Dannar
02-15-08, 09:57 PM The Sacred Exorcist? Of course it has full spellcasting increases for EITHER type of spellcasting. It is one of those classes I'd almost alway consider for my LG spellcasters.

Stats of 11,17,13,14,20,18? Those certainly don't look like your standard 4d6 drop lowest. Perhaps somebody forgot about the "drop lowest" part as dropping three points off of each of those would look a lot closer to what one should get.

Although a couple levels of Paladin leading into cleric can work a straight Cleric 6 should be more powerful. With a CHA 18 AND WIS 20 it may not be such a bad idea although the delay is spellcasting still hurts.

The Rolls were 11,13,14,17,18,18 It was a good set.

I was planning on doing 3d6 until DM said that we were going with standard 3.5 4d6 drop lowest.

3d6 set was pretty standard fare: 8,9,11,12,13,15

then there was my 3d6 reroll 1's set: 15,15,15,18,13,15 that one was amusing...
Dannar
02-15-08, 10:00 PM Straight cleric. Consider full spell casting PrCs.

As to gear, consider consumables over a magic weapon or shield. Pick those up later.

Also note that with weapon and shield you can't cast spells with somatic components (there is a feat that obviates this).

-James

I'm fairly sure the "somatic component" for most divine spells is holding up your deities symbol and invoking her name to get her blessing in the form of the spell... certainly for forgotten realms it is that way...
dman11235
02-15-08, 10:16 PM And you can make your shield a holy symbol. Now, why the high dex score? You should be focusing on wisdom, strength, con, and cha. C-Zilla is a melee powerhouse. Hard to do without strength.
Dannar
02-15-08, 10:47 PM And you can make your shield a holy symbol. Now, why the high dex score? You should be focusing on wisdom, strength, con, and cha. C-Zilla is a melee powerhouse. Hard to do without strength.

can always flip flop my Dex and Strength scores, though I was going to be more of a Dex Melee Fighter than a Strength Based... besides, can't buy a +1 Full Plate of Negative Energy Protection right off the bat because of the 5000gp per item limit.

I suppose that's not a great reason to not do it, but hey, w/e :-P

more later...
dman11235
02-15-08, 11:09 PM But you can buy the full plate right off the bat. And that's a much bigger AC right there. And higher damage output. Use things pesides dex to get a respectable AC. Granted no armor builds are the highest ACs, but generally those are insane, and not necessary. At level 6, you can have 10+9 (+1 full plate)+3 (+1 heavy shield)+whatever spell you put up. That's 22+ right there. That's pretty good for that level. Even pick up +1 from dex.
Sinfire Titan
02-15-08, 11:51 PM Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire!

:D

Wait, I have two DMMs in my campaigns. And I just told Archer how to make it more cost-effective. Oh. Crap!
JamesMaissen
02-15-08, 11:56 PM I'm fairly sure the "somatic component" for most divine spells is holding up your deities symbol and invoking her name to get her blessing in the form of the spell... certainly for forgotten realms it is that way...

Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast.

And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol.

-James
Sinfire Titan
02-16-08, 12:27 AM Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire!

Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast.

And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol.

-James

Somatic Weaponry (CM) takes care of that problem.
archerpwr
02-16-08, 12:53 AM :D

Wait, I have two DMMs in my campaigns. And I just told Archer how to make it more cost-effective. Oh. Crap!

Requires 12 ranks, so you're pretty safe right now.
Dannar
02-16-08, 01:12 AM But you can buy the full plate right off the bat. And that's a much bigger AC right there. And higher damage output. Use things pesides dex to get a respectable AC. Granted no armor builds are the highest ACs, but generally those are insane, and not necessary. At level 6, you can have 10+9 (+1 full plate)+3 (+1 heavy shield)+whatever spell you put up. That's 22+ right there. That's pretty good for that level. Even pick up +1 from dex.

So far, I haven't lost any AC, moving from Full Plate +1 to Chain Shirt +1...

The upside is I have less armor check penalty, so I can move more quietly (the party will love a not so noisy cleric...)

I get a higher reflex save, higher initiative bonus, higher flat footed ac, all in trade for 1300 gold and not quite as good of a flat-footed ac, and doing 3 fewer points of damage per hit, and having an attack bonus 3 points lower (easilly rectified with a weapon finesse, and using light maces instead of heavy maces
Sinfire Titan
02-16-08, 01:24 AM (the party will love a not so noisy cleric...)

I'm sorry, I have to say this:

Everything is noisy when it shoved off a cliff!
InkBlot
02-16-08, 01:37 AM Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast.

And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol.

With a light shield, you can still hold things in your shield hand. When you need to cast, put the mace in your shield hand for a couple seconds and then put it back.

Put your holy symbol on everything. Put it on the plates of your armor. Put it on the palms of your gauntlets. Put it on your shield. Put it on your helmet. Paint it on if you have to. It won't help for somatic components, but it should work for turning undead.

edit: And carry some spare holy symbols (of the amulet-type) in your pocket or on your belt or something.
JamesMaissen
02-16-08, 08:25 AM With a light shield, you can still hold things in your shield hand. When you need to cast, put the mace in your shield hand for a couple seconds and then put it back.

Unless you are planning on shield bashing with the light shield I would suggest a buckler.

And yeah Somatic Casting was the feat I was thinking of in obviating the need. It's pricey as a feat to accomplish is all.

Towards the STR over DEX, you're forgetting the +3 to hit, carrying capacity, grapple checks and how it will scale for later levels. A high strength like that will give you options to be a more martial cleric in the low (~1st-4th) and higher (~12th-15th) levels.

You are also putting your stat bump into DEX rather than WIS, which is a strong investment.

-James
EvilVegan
02-16-08, 10:00 AM I'm sorry, I have to say this:

Everything is noisy when it shoved off a cliff!

If a whisper gnome falls in the forest does it make a sound?
Grod_The_Giant
02-16-08, 12:01 PM I'd recommend seeing if your DM will allow the alternate turning rules from CDiv- the ones that let you do damage instead of making undead run away. It's something like 1d6/level (will 1/2, turn resistance is DR) in a 60' radius, so you'll blow the weak stuff away and weaken the strong stuff. Otherwise radient servant of pelor is good. I don't know about the paladin levels- you don't seem to be to melee-focused. I will second the suggestion of swapping Dex and Str- all you need is a +1 in dex to max out the bonus for full plate, and it beats just about any other armor for max possible AC bonus.
dman11235
02-16-08, 12:05 PM Mechanus Gear. That beats out Full Plate. And I think Mountain Plate is a little worse than Mechanus Gear due to Exotic Armor Proficiency being required.
Sinfire Titan
02-16-08, 02:03 PM If a whisper gnome falls in the forest does it make a sound?

Depends on how hard it got hit to make it drop to -10.

Or what kind of mallet you used.
LordTarmos
02-16-08, 02:13 PM 1: Radiant Servant of Pelor.
excellent Prc for undead and healing awesome choice.

2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half.

I have never thought of using to cut turn costs in half (have always loved using residual metamagic) nice touch sinfire.
dman11235
02-16-08, 02:16 PM The only problem with Residual Metamagic (not by that name of course: it's a tactical feat) is that you can't apply the metamagic to a different spell: it has to be the same spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dannar 02-15-08, 02:51 PM	1.) Campaign is Undead Heavy, so are there any tweaks I should make to the standard build 2.) Is there any point taking any feats other than Divine metamagic, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, and a whole bunch of Extra Turning Feats?
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 03:01 PM	1: Radiant Servant of Pelor. 2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half.
LSMFT 02-15-08, 03:11 PM	Answer 1: Against undead, you have powerful tools like your spells and Turning, so, you can do quite well without doing much. Answer 2: That is a very powerful way to go, but if it is undead heavy, you might gain more from your Turn attempts by using them as they were intended.
dman11235 02-15-08, 03:13 PM	Nightsticks are your friend (LM). They can also replace the need for Extra Turning. Other than that, just go with your gut. Touch of Healing (CChamp) would also be nice to have, to extend your healing. Some domain feats are also nice, in particular Animal Devotion (strength boost!), Knowledge (damage and attack), Protection, Sun. Travel is all around nice. Augment Healing also extends your healing. As Sinfire said, RSoP kills undead. It also gets you more turn attempts to use. EDIT: Dang it LSMFT, now you're ninja'ing me! I wouldn't use turning as intended after the early levels. Undead HD scale too fast for it to be of use. EDIT take 2: Sunburst and Sunbeam are great spells to use against undead.
LSMFT 02-15-08, 03:35 PM	:D When I think “undead heavy” it is along the lines of a lich-king with masses of animated, created, and summoned undead. Things like Turn attempts tend to cut through all those lower level minions pretty easily, and as such, everyone, including the cleric, spends fewer resources trying to wade through them all. Against your BBEG, no, turning is probably not going to work.
dman11235 02-15-08, 03:39 PM	Even the "low level" minions can have high HD. My party (in an undead heavy campaign: I was a RSoP) was facing "the blighter" (he's really annoying in that he just doesn't die) and he had a couple of skeletons. Was I able to turn them? No, not really. Even with a 20 followed by 3 6s, I wouldn't have been able to. BTW, I believe they were polar bear skeletons. They managed to kill me. They needed to roll a 17 or higher to hit, and it rended me. I had 100 HP left. Only took one of them, the other had died.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 03:42 PM	:D When I think “undead heavy” it is along the lines of a lich-king with masses of animated, created, and summoned undead. Things like Turn attempts tend to cut through all those lower level minions pretty easily, and as such, everyone, including the cleric, spends fewer resources trying to wade through them all. Against your BBEG, no, turning is probably not going to work. I hear undead, and I think Zombies. And when I think Zombies, I think about my friend, Mark. And his greatest pet peeve. "You mean like the zombies from 28 Days Later?" THEY'RE NOT ZOMBIES! THEY'RE RAGE-INFECTED PEOPLE! Makes me laugh every time.
Dannar 02-15-08, 03:50 PM	When I say "Undead Heavy" I mean Ravenloft, preferring to avoid metagaming, without being set up for killing demons specifically (or some other great but useless cleric setup that would be worthless against undead)
JamesMaissen 02-15-08, 05:46 PM	Nightsticks are your friend (LM). They can also replace the need for Extra Turning. Nightsticks don't stack. Nor do they give you extra turns, but rather raise the number of turn attempts a day that you have.. much like an eagle's splendor spell does when cast upon you. The number of turn attempts that you have used for the day still accrue. There are a few feats from Libris Mortis you might be interested in that delay the effects of negative levels. Could be quite useful for a cleric who's likely to be seen as the biggest threat. -James
dman11235 02-15-08, 05:51 PM	They give you four more turn attempts per day. Nothing saying that it is a bonus of some sort, so it's like getting a platinum piece and then another. It just gives you more turn attempts.
archerpwr 02-15-08, 05:53 PM	2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half. Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire!
dman11235 02-15-08, 05:55 PM	You know, never stated that it was a good catch either Sinfire. Good job.
Jaxgaret 02-15-08, 05:58 PM	Yeah, Residual Magic is an awesome feat for metamagics with large spell level adjustments.
StevenO 02-15-08, 06:25 PM	In addition to the Radiant Servant of Pelor I also like the Sacred Exorcist PrC although getting it may be difficult in Ravenloft. It is anti-possession which can be important against certain types of undead plus it can gain combat bonuses against undead and a Consecreated Presence which can be very nice against undead.
dman11235 02-15-08, 06:28 PM	Doesn't it also have full casting? That's the important thing right there.
Dannar 02-15-08, 06:33 PM	Nightsticks don't stack. Nor do they give you extra turns, but rather raise the number of turn attempts a day that you have.. much like an eagle's splendor spell does when cast upon you. The number of turn attempts that you have used for the day still accrue. There are a few feats from Libris Mortis you might be interested in that delay the effects of negative levels. Could be quite useful for a cleric who's likely to be seen as the biggest threat. -James I already know my DM will only allow a single Nightstick. Edit What's more useful: 2 levels of Paladin, before heading into Cleric, or just straight cleric? At 6th Level, stated out on 4d6 rolls: Human STR 11 DEX 17(+1 level bump 18) CON 14 INT 13 WIS 20 CHA 18 I like having the two levels of Paladin for the soul benefit of getting a boost to my saves. Starting Gold 13,000 Armor: +1 Chain Shirt of Negative Energy Protection (+1 bonus, Magic of Faerun) (can't get Death Ward because max gold on a single item is 5k starting out) Shield: +1 Heavy Steel Shield Weapons: Heavy Mace +1, Silvered Heavy Mace Head: Phylactery of Faithfulness ("Necessary" According to my DM) Neck: Periapt of Wisdom +2
StevenO 02-15-08, 08:17 PM	Doesn't it also have full casting? That's the important thing right there. The Sacred Exorcist? Of course it has full spellcasting increases for EITHER type of spellcasting. It is one of those classes I'd almost alway consider for my LG spellcasters. Stats of 11,17,13,14,20,18? Those certainly don't look like your standard 4d6 drop lowest. Perhaps somebody forgot about the "drop lowest" part as dropping three points off of each of those would look a lot closer to what one should get. Although a couple levels of Paladin leading into cleric can work a straight Cleric 6 should be more powerful. With a CHA 18 AND WIS 20 it may not be such a bad idea although the delay is spellcasting still hurts.
JamesMaissen 02-15-08, 09:04 PM	Edit What's more useful: 2 levels of Paladin, before heading into Cleric, or just straight cleric? Straight cleric. Consider full spell casting PrCs. As to gear, consider consumables over a magic weapon or shield. Pick those up later. Also note that with weapon and shield you can't cast spells with somatic components (there is a feat that obviates this). -James
Dannar 02-15-08, 09:57 PM	The Sacred Exorcist? Of course it has full spellcasting increases for EITHER type of spellcasting. It is one of those classes I'd almost alway consider for my LG spellcasters. Stats of 11,17,13,14,20,18? Those certainly don't look like your standard 4d6 drop lowest. Perhaps somebody forgot about the "drop lowest" part as dropping three points off of each of those would look a lot closer to what one should get. Although a couple levels of Paladin leading into cleric can work a straight Cleric 6 should be more powerful. With a CHA 18 AND WIS 20 it may not be such a bad idea although the delay is spellcasting still hurts. The Rolls were 11,13,14,17,18,18 It was a good set. I was planning on doing 3d6 until DM said that we were going with standard 3.5 4d6 drop lowest. 3d6 set was pretty standard fare: 8,9,11,12,13,15 then there was my 3d6 reroll 1's set: 15,15,15,18,13,15 that one was amusing...
Dannar 02-15-08, 10:00 PM	Straight cleric. Consider full spell casting PrCs. As to gear, consider consumables over a magic weapon or shield. Pick those up later. Also note that with weapon and shield you can't cast spells with somatic components (there is a feat that obviates this). -James I'm fairly sure the "somatic component" for most divine spells is holding up your deities symbol and invoking her name to get her blessing in the form of the spell... certainly for forgotten realms it is that way...
dman11235 02-15-08, 10:16 PM	And you can make your shield a holy symbol. Now, why the high dex score? You should be focusing on wisdom, strength, con, and cha. C-Zilla is a melee powerhouse. Hard to do without strength.
Dannar 02-15-08, 10:47 PM	And you can make your shield a holy symbol. Now, why the high dex score? You should be focusing on wisdom, strength, con, and cha. C-Zilla is a melee powerhouse. Hard to do without strength. can always flip flop my Dex and Strength scores, though I was going to be more of a Dex Melee Fighter than a Strength Based... besides, can't buy a +1 Full Plate of Negative Energy Protection right off the bat because of the 5000gp per item limit. I suppose that's not a great reason to not do it, but hey, w/e :-P more later...
dman11235 02-15-08, 11:09 PM	But you can buy the full plate right off the bat. And that's a much bigger AC right there. And higher damage output. Use things pesides dex to get a respectable AC. Granted no armor builds are the highest ACs, but generally those are insane, and not necessary. At level 6, you can have 10+9 (+1 full plate)+3 (+1 heavy shield)+whatever spell you put up. That's 22+ right there. That's pretty good for that level. Even pick up +1 from dex.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 11:51 PM	Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire! :D Wait, I have two DMMs in my campaigns. And I just told Archer how to make it more cost-effective. Oh. Crap!
JamesMaissen 02-15-08, 11:56 PM	I'm fairly sure the "somatic component" for most divine spells is holding up your deities symbol and invoking her name to get her blessing in the form of the spell... certainly for forgotten realms it is that way... Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast. And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol. -James
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 12:27 AM	Crap. I never thought of that. Nice catch/find Sinfire! Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast. And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol. -James Somatic Weaponry (CM) takes care of that problem.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 12:53 AM	:D Wait, I have two DMMs in my campaigns. And I just told Archer how to make it more cost-effective. Oh. Crap! Requires 12 ranks, so you're pretty safe right now.
Dannar 02-16-08, 01:12 AM	But you can buy the full plate right off the bat. And that's a much bigger AC right there. And higher damage output. Use things pesides dex to get a respectable AC. Granted no armor builds are the highest ACs, but generally those are insane, and not necessary. At level 6, you can have 10+9 (+1 full plate)+3 (+1 heavy shield)+whatever spell you put up. That's 22+ right there. That's pretty good for that level. Even pick up +1 from dex. So far, I haven't lost any AC, moving from Full Plate +1 to Chain Shirt +1... The upside is I have less armor check penalty, so I can move more quietly (the party will love a not so noisy cleric...) I get a higher reflex save, higher initiative bonus, higher flat footed ac, all in trade for 1300 gold and not quite as good of a flat-footed ac, and doing 3 fewer points of damage per hit, and having an attack bonus 3 points lower (easilly rectified with a weapon finesse, and using light maces instead of heavy maces
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 01:24 AM	(the party will love a not so noisy cleric...) I'm sorry, I have to say this: Everything is noisy when it shoved off a cliff!
InkBlot 02-16-08, 01:37 AM	Well with shield taking up one hand and a mace in another you don't have the hand free to cast. And a locked gauntlet prevents somatic casting with that hand, so I would guess it requires more movement than simply holding up a symbol. With a light shield, you can still hold things in your shield hand. When you need to cast, put the mace in your shield hand for a couple seconds and then put it back. Put your holy symbol on everything. Put it on the plates of your armor. Put it on the palms of your gauntlets. Put it on your shield. Put it on your helmet. Paint it on if you have to. It won't help for somatic components, but it should work for turning undead. edit: And carry some spare holy symbols (of the amulet-type) in your pocket or on your belt or something.
JamesMaissen 02-16-08, 08:25 AM	With a light shield, you can still hold things in your shield hand. When you need to cast, put the mace in your shield hand for a couple seconds and then put it back. Unless you are planning on shield bashing with the light shield I would suggest a buckler. And yeah Somatic Casting was the feat I was thinking of in obviating the need. It's pricey as a feat to accomplish is all. Towards the STR over DEX, you're forgetting the +3 to hit, carrying capacity, grapple checks and how it will scale for later levels. A high strength like that will give you options to be a more martial cleric in the low (~1st-4th) and higher (~12th-15th) levels. You are also putting your stat bump into DEX rather than WIS, which is a strong investment. -James
EvilVegan 02-16-08, 10:00 AM	I'm sorry, I have to say this: Everything is noisy when it shoved off a cliff! If a whisper gnome falls in the forest does it make a sound?
Grod_The_Giant 02-16-08, 12:01 PM	I'd recommend seeing if your DM will allow the alternate turning rules from CDiv- the ones that let you do damage instead of making undead run away. It's something like 1d6/level (will 1/2, turn resistance is DR) in a 60' radius, so you'll blow the weak stuff away and weaken the strong stuff. Otherwise radient servant of pelor is good. I don't know about the paladin levels- you don't seem to be to melee-focused. I will second the suggestion of swapping Dex and Str- all you need is a +1 in dex to max out the bonus for full plate, and it beats just about any other armor for max possible AC bonus.
dman11235 02-16-08, 12:05 PM	Mechanus Gear. That beats out Full Plate. And I think Mountain Plate is a little worse than Mechanus Gear due to Exotic Armor Proficiency being required.
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 02:03 PM	If a whisper gnome falls in the forest does it make a sound? Depends on how hard it got hit to make it drop to -10. Or what kind of mallet you used.
LordTarmos 02-16-08, 02:13 PM	1: Radiant Servant of Pelor. excellent Prc for undead and healing awesome choice. 2: Some more DMM (Twin or Repeat) will be nice. Residual Metamagic (Comp Mage) will cut your turn costs in half. I have never thought of using to cut turn costs in half (have always loved using residual metamagic) nice touch sinfire.
dman11235 02-16-08, 02:16 PM	The only problem with Residual Metamagic (not by that name of course: it's a tactical feat) is that you can't apply the metamagic to a different spell: it has to be the same spell.