Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnonymousInternets 09-23-07, 02:36 PM	I've had Complete Divine and Complete Arcane for some time, but never played most of their base classes (save Warlock). In general, they never seemed as good as their counterparts (Favored Soul < Cleric, Wu Jen < Wizard, Spirit Shaman < Druid, Warmage < Sorcerer, Shugenja just looks bad). How close to the mark am I on this? Admittedly, I haven't had a chance to test them out, but based on class entries I don't feel like any of them are worth it, unless you really want the minor flavor differences that you could just as easily roleplay/setup with their counterparts.
StevenO 09-23-07, 02:51 PM	The Warmage and Warlock from Complete Arcane have their uses. The Warlock is probably the first really "new" base class so it is playable. The Warmage would be ok when compared to a Sorcerer focusing on similiar spells except that multiclassing away from it takes away much of what makes the class different. With the Complete Divine the Favored Soul is to the Cleric what a Sorcerer is to a Wizard, at least almost. If fits an occasional need but that is about all. The other CD base classes I hardly remember and honestly that may be the worst book in the Complete series.
AnonymousInternets 09-23-07, 03:03 PM	The Warmage and Warlock from Complete Arcane have their uses. The Warlock is probably the first really "new" base class so it is playable. The Warmage would be ok when compared to a Sorcerer focusing on similiar spells except that multiclassing away from it takes away much of what makes the class different. With the Complete Divine the Favored Soul is to the Cleric what a Sorcerer is to a Wizard, at least almost. If fits an occasional need but that is about all. The other CD base classes I hardly remember and honestly that may be the worst book in the Complete series. I've played Warlock, and it was pretty fun. He wasn't incredibly powerful, but flight and invisibility at will were tremendously helpful and meta-Sp feats were able to buff his blast to be on par with even some of the higher-end damagers in my party a few times per day (and entropic warding was outright convenient). He's probably not as effective as a wizard or sorcerer, but I found him just as fun to play. Warmage is just so typecasted, and its abilities aren't unique. All you can do is nuke, which is a function nearly every other caster can also perform. Why bother when the other casters can do what you do and countless other things? CD wasn't that bad, I thought. I liked it more than Complete Psionic and Complete Champion.
Salla 09-23-07, 03:27 PM	I tend to think of the Favored Soul and the Sorcerer as the 'beginner' versions of the Cleric and Wizard. The Wu Jen is definitely inferior to the Wizard, with a smaller spell list and ways of losing their spells for the day (but at least taking Spell Secret is optional). The Spirit Shaman is weaker than the Druid, but the Druid is hopelessly broken, so that's hardly surprising. The Warmage is useless past level 6 or so, because all it does is blast. Blasting is weak, evocation is pretty much useless. The Shugenja just stinks on ice, yes.
navar100 09-23-07, 03:29 PM	Just because class A < class B doesn't mean class A is not worth playing. It is not necessarily so that all classes are to be used, not even core. Some DMs and players find cleric, druid, and wizard to be too powerful for their tastes. While they don't want to ban magic use outright and let player casters do wonderful and "powerful" things with magic, they also don't want magic power to monopolize the game as they feel these core classes do. Favored Soul, Shaman, and Wujen are alternatives, that while they can co-exist with Core, they are good enough on their own for less powerful yet still potent magic classes. The designers didn't necessarily "screw up" when they create a 'less than optimal' class. Such classes could be intended for those who want the lower power game feel, even among non-casters such as samurai and swashbuckler. Perhaps not the designers were so enlightened, but a happy accident can result in a fun game.
AnonymousInternets 09-23-07, 03:56 PM	Just because class A < class B doesn't mean class A is not worth playing. The thing is, those classes provide less options to the player, and their flavors can be done with their counterpart classes just fine: you can roleplay a Wu Jen with a wizard with no problems at all, and functionally, Wu Jen has very little unique traits, which brings me back to, "Why play them at all?". To limit yourself? Do you need actual mechanical restrictions to do that? There's nothing stopping you from playing a sub-par cleric, wizard, or druid. I find those classes not only worse mechanically, but also more restricted in roleplaying and purpose. I think they screwed up in the sense that they spent so much time and pagespace on classes that aren't unique enough to warrant such when they could've been used for something else. Most of those classes seem hardly distinct enough to be more than just class variants. I'd rather they spend the time and space on more unique classes (like they did for Warlock, which I thought was a successful new class within those books). Maybe I'm just being picky...
ark7 09-23-07, 04:00 PM	I personally find the Shugenja to be quite playable. They are spontaneous casters, which I find good for divine magic, and get a good number of spells per day. Also, the element you choose can add a good deal of versatility, since each element has some spells not available to standard clerics. However, you shouldn't treat a Shugenja as a cleric, they are way too different.
Jaxgaret 09-23-07, 05:20 PM	Compared to the Big Four, those classes do not stack up. But then again, no classes do. It would actually be a more balanced campaign decision to adopt those as the "true" classes in a campaign - i.e. replace Druid with Spirit Shaman or Shapeshift variant, replace Cleric with Favored Soul (possibly adding Turning/Rebuking to it and perhaps allow domains to be taken at first level as feats) or Shugenja or Cloistered Cleric, and replace Wizard with Wu Jen - and ban the originals.
DM Zoc 09-23-07, 05:38 PM	The classes in Complete Divine and Complete Arcane are all very useful, and in many ways they are more powerful than the core classes. The appeal of the warlock is obvious. The wujen has a list of spells that doesn't heavily overlap with the wizard; wizards are more powerful because they have more support in various supplements, but wujen can usually pull off the element of surprise. The flavor also limits the class in many campaigns. The warmage is a better damage dealer than the sorcerer. In my experience, this is a very useful class to have around, but I suppose that might be different if you play exclusively at high levels. Nevertheless, it's very powerful, offering more combat options than a sorcerer can provide and with quite a few other class features. The favored soul is arguably the "best" of the lot. I have played a few of these, though I would never touch the cleric. As someone who has played a good amount of second edition AD&D, I will never volunteer to play a prepared caster. The favored soul not only solves the problem of what spells to prepare, but also gives you an excuse to not be "just a walking band-aid" and it shores up your defenses with the good reflex save. The spirit shaman is like a spontaneous druid, so bonus points there (but the system is slightly more complicated than that, unfortunately). The lack of wild shape makes for a lot less bookkeeping (by which I mean, searching through several books for appropriate forms and keeping all of their stats straight). The ability to blast spirits and immunity to mind control are also situationally incredibly useful, though they can be worthless depending on the game. The shugenja is the class I most want to play, but unfortunately the forced-flavor of the class doesn't fit into many campaigns. It's essentially three classes in one, as a fire shugenja plays nothing like a water shugenja, though I suppose an earth or air shegunja are both equally moderate at healing and dealing.
AllisterH 09-23-07, 06:07 PM	Compared to the Big Four, those classes do not stack up. But then again, no classes do. It would actually be a more balanced campaign decision to adopt those as the "true" classes in a campaign - i.e. replace Druid with Spirit Shaman or Shapeshift variant, replace Cleric with Favored Soul (possibly adding Turning/Rebuking to it and perhaps allow domains to be taken at first level as feats) or Shugenja or Cloistered Cleric, and replace Wizard with Wu Jen - and ban the originals. Agreed. A party consisting of a crusader, rogue, favoured soul and beguiler won't have as wide a disparity in power as compared to the classic 4 combo of fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard. I've known a few DMs that have banned the original PHB magic classes and only allowed the new ones and apparently, EVERYONE benefits.
Treantmonklvl20 09-23-07, 07:18 PM	The Spirit Shaman is actually a very strong class. Yeah - it's probably not as tough as a Druid, It is however, a MUCH better caster.
navar100 09-23-07, 09:10 PM	The thing is, those classes provide less options to the player, and their flavors can be done with their counterpart classes just fine: you can roleplay a Wu Jen with a wizard with no problems at all, and functionally, Wu Jen has very little unique traits, which brings me back to, "Why play them at all?". To limit yourself? Do you need actual mechanical restrictions to do that? There's nothing stopping you from playing a sub-par cleric, wizard, or druid. I find those classes not only worse mechanically, but also more restricted in roleplaying and purpose. I think they screwed up in the sense that they spent so much time and pagespace on classes that aren't unique enough to warrant such when they could've been used for something else. Most of those classes seem hardly distinct enough to be more than just class variants. I'd rather they spend the time and space on more unique classes (like they did for Warlock, which I thought was a successful new class within those books). Maybe I'm just being picky... Keep in mind that Wujen, Shujenga, and Shaman were originally made for Oriental Adventures. They are magic classes for a different feel to the game that fits the setting for which they were designed. Wizards, clerics, and druids were discouraged in such campaigns. The Favored Soul was created just to have a spontaneous divine caster as sorcerer is to wizard. Whether it's better than Mystic from 3E Dragonlance which gets a Domain but nothing else aside from sells is a personal preference, but Mystic is more setting limited. As for why someone would play a Wu-Jen instead of a Wizard, given both were available, is just a player's personal choice. Just because you'd never play a Wujen doesn't mean it's your perogotive to say another player should not. Another class being "better" is irrelevant. The question is whether the chosen class can function well enough for that campaign. It's the same thing with the monk sucks threads and the fighter sucks threads. The power of another class is always irrelevant. What you'd like to play is irrelevant to what someone else would like to play.