Can a cleric change his God? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a cleric change his God? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gruffmug
02-20-06, 11:23 PM What happens to a cleric who shitches gods? In our campaign we had a cleric of pelor get hit with an alignment change. He is no longer able to reciece the blessings of pelor and is seeking a diety to follow. I can not find a reference for this situation. I know there is one out there. Can anyone help with this one? Or is simply an ex-cleric?
BlaineTog
02-20-06, 11:25 PM As far as I know, there are no in-game mechanics to deal with something like this. You're probably going to have to make up something yourself, like some sort of ritual a cleric of the new god can perform. I suggest making it a little bit more difficult to switch than that, though, as one would presume the god would want to test the loyalty of the new cleric.

PS: I personally think effects that force an alighmnent change should be removed from the game post haste.
serow_#R
02-20-06, 11:38 PM there's the spell atonement...
i suppose u could use it together with a small sidequest to either get back in favour with pelor, or with the new church
Wharin
02-20-06, 11:48 PM Well, technically using the rules presented in the PHB, there are no rules for switching gods, either for doing it without ceremony, or being able to do it at all. In fact you don't even have to worship a god.

Now, that said, there is a presedence how to handle it given in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When a cleric switches gods, be it because he was cast down by his god or because he refuses to worship him/her anymore, he first looses his powers, then he has Atonement cast on him by a cleric or some other divine agent of their new god.
Feor
02-20-06, 11:53 PM You could also abandone your regular clerical abilities and go the way of the Ur-Priest.

Other than that, you could probably find a newly appropriate diety and pledge alleigance to them. You'd probably have to switch Domains, and if I was DM I'd have you start out oy able to cast spells as a 1st Level cleric, granting you some more spells for every fraction of a level, and then giving you full casting back when you leveled.
fishtailsam
02-20-06, 11:55 PM Now this is totally My campaign spesific, but, if a cleric in my game wanted to change Gods he would have to START OVER in the class, he retains HP, saves etc. but looses class abilitys and spellcasting.
Seerow
02-21-06, 12:34 AM Well note that his alignment change wasn't of his volition, so that seems really unfair to the player in question.

Albeit it makes sense, I'd rather get an atonement spell as suggested above.
Gruffmug
02-21-06, 01:14 AM Was there a level loss involed in the discription in the forgotten realms source book or another book in the setting? Also what page would I find that on? My DM would really like this info. We tend to be fairly by the book in our campaign. The PC alignment was caused by magic but he did had a chance to retain his old alignment. It (the fix) was a strechening on realism so he said he would live with it. Now we are kinda at a loss of what to do. I figure there has to be something after all part of "Ciricks" The Mad gods theme was converting other priest. I just need to find rules for it. There had to be something for Liera's, baul's, Bane's and Merkul's priests.

gruffmug
Vikjunk
02-21-06, 02:14 AM Was there a level loss involed in the discription in the forgotten realms source book or another book in the setting? Also what page would I find that on? My DM would really like this info. We tend to be fairly by the book in our campaign. The PC alignment was caused by magic but he did had a chance to retain his old alignment. It (the fix) was a strechening on realism so he said he would live with it. Now we are kinda at a loss of what to do. I figure there has to be something after all part of "Ciricks" The Mad gods theme was converting other priest. I just need to find rules for it. There had to be something for Liera's, baul's, Bane's and Merkul's priests.

gruffmug

There is no loss of level in of the paragraph on Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting pg. 233 about Changing Deities. You do have to go through a quest and have Atonement by a representative of the faith to change Deities for a divine spellcaster though.

I think the thing with fishtailsam is that most likely he feels that changing deities is a major thing and shouldn't be taken lightly. But I like the quest thing since it doesn't totally gimp a player that wants to change is character in the middle of a campaign, but it lets the DM set the quest for a character he feels that is appropriate. Like a Cleric of St. Cuthbert should be able to change into a Cleric of Heironeous fairly easily and the quest to change should be that difficult since both religions put great emphasis chivalry but differ how they enforce the Law so it shouldn’t take that much to gain the trust of the other god. But if a former Cleric of Mystra wanted to become a Cleric of Shar it should be a major quest since they are rivals so it would take a major effort for a character to gain the trust of Shar.
kraegor
02-21-06, 03:51 PM Now this is totally My campaign spesific, but, if a cleric in my game wanted to change Gods he would have to START OVER in the class, he retains HP, saves etc. but looses class abilitys and spellcasting.

Unfortunately most players switch God's because the DM stuck them with something crappy like an alignment change, or lycanthropy, or some roleplaying reason. Something this harsh as a punishment for changing Gods is a roleplaying killer. No character would ever switch thier God due to a roleplaying reason if they knew that 7 levels of thier class would just go "poof".
SiouLubb
02-21-06, 04:31 PM What's the new alignment? What happens from here kind of depends on the DM and the player. They should get together and talk about what they both want out of this. There's a great roleplaying experience to be had out of this.

I'll assume that the alignment change was away from Lawful Good and towards something either evil or much more selfish, something like CN.

How would the cleric react? Remember, he's been worshipping Pelor for years, devoting himself and his efforts to the God. in the PC's eyes, just as he had a revelation about the world and how the world works (his alignment change), the God he worshipped turned away from him. Let's assume the alignment change was to evil- The source of his POWER turned away from him, abandoned him and left him to die as a normal, unspectacular commoner. (Admittedly with higher saves, HP, BAB, etc) Pretty good odds that the PC might turn very, very angry against Pelor. "Why have you rejected me, the one who was devoted to you?!? WHY?!? Reference Anakin Skywalker for ideas....

So at that point, perhaps the PC decides to seek out Pelor's nemesis and offer his worship, hoping to be accepted, swearing revenge on Pelor "I will worship your dark majesty for all eternity with my immortal soul if you channel through me your dark power so that I may destroy Pelor and his works...."

Or, perhaps the Dark Gods already have their eye on the PC and send a representative to make him an offer he can't refuse. If you really want to mix things up, you could have the PC become a Warlock instead of a cleric of a Dark God. Perhaps there's some sort of dark equivalent to the Dragonborn process that the PC could undergo. Imagine the dialogue you could have between the PC and a representative of the dark powers. Perhaps the representative doesn't explain who he represents, but just vaguely refers to being aware of the betrayal the PC has jjust suffered. There are others who have suffered from Pelor's trechery....we know what it is to lose everything you lived for, just because you questioned your lord's edicts. There is a way to make Pelor pay attention to you again, to bask in his radiance- as you assert the power that he tried to take away from you...... Yes. There are powers who know that you are worthy, that you should be raised up above the masses. The price of such power is harsh- but the power is greater than that which you have been wrongly stripped of. To prove that you wish this power, here is what you must do....

The road to evil clericdom/warlockdom is then either short or long at the DM's choice.

Now if the alignment change is non-evil, another path which could be taken is the PC tryiing to come back to Pelor. Trying to understand why the deity cut him off. Basically, you'd have to quest to regain Pelor's favour, questing to do deeds which would naturally shift your alignment back to LG, or remove your curse.
mrurbanitesmiley
02-21-06, 05:57 PM There were rules for this in Defenders of the Faith, the old 3.0 cleric/pally splatbook, but I don't remember what they are.
How I would rule it: Cleric loses all spellcasting/class abilities until he finds a new god and completes an atonement and possibly a quest.
Forcing the character to start over is cruel and non-logical. Do you think Pelor is going to punish a convert from an evil god to Pelor by stunting his spellcasting abilities? No. He'll give the convert as much power as he can, to keep him in the fold, and to make him serve as a shining example to other evildoers.
Feor
02-21-06, 08:24 PM There were rules for this in Defenders of the Faith, the old 3.0 cleric/pally splatbook, but I don't remember what they are.
How I would rule it: Cleric loses all spellcasting/class abilities until he finds a new god and completes an atonement and possibly a quest.
Forcing the character to start over is cruel and non-logical. Do you think Pelor is going to punish a convert from an evil god to Pelor by stunting his spellcasting abilities? No. He'll give the convert as much power as he can, to keep him in the fold, and to make him serve as a shining example to other evildoers.

I doubt he'd give him as power as he could. The guy is still a traitor. He might give him some power, then as he proved his loyalty give him more and more power. Hence my incremental return to his old power level.
Darth Sephiroth
02-21-06, 09:57 PM I doubt he'd give him as power as he could. The guy is still a traitor. He might give him some power, then as he proved his loyalty give him more and more power. Hence my incremental return to his old power level.

I've had it happen in both directions, one player was basically redeemed when some thing happened and he switched gods. In another I had one who fell to the darkness and turned on his former god. But the situation doesn't always make them a traitor, in fact in some situations, he leaves one diety because the diety betrayed him.
Feor
02-21-06, 10:25 PM Regardless of how he found his new god, I'd imagine there's still be a degree of mistrust at first. Simply heaping every power & secret you can spare on him could just be giving him all your knowledge for him to take back to his temple. Something especially undesirable if it was, say, an Elf betrayingto Grummsh or some such unlikely switch.
Macgyver
02-21-06, 10:39 PM A cleric need not have a patron diety in order to recieve spells in the first place. I just had a great idea while reading this topic.

Allow him all of his regular abilities, except for his domain spells, which he will have to find a new diety/aligned power in order to recieve, along with, most likely, a change of domains.

This is rational so long as the cleric in question aligns himself with his new alignment, which I assume was brought about by character action.

This is what I would do, as a DM. Of course, it would also make sense to revoke all of his spellcasting powers and have the slowly return to him, level by level, at your discretion (a single level of spellcasting per day, per week, per well roleplayed situation in context, et cetera).
Darth Sephiroth
02-21-06, 11:12 PM I wouldn't allow them to go to a diety who hates their race. Gruumish would dislike elves, but Hextor would probably enjoy having a fallen cleric of Heironeous serving him. It just sort of makes sense
Feor
02-21-06, 11:44 PM Yeah, Heironeous to Hextor is a good example. If such a cleric were to make the switch, and Hextor heaped everything he could on him, then it turns out it was a trick, and the extended Morality Undone wears off, the Cleric goes back to his own temple, Atones, and has all teh secrets of the Temple of Hextor with him.
mrurbanitesmiley
02-22-06, 12:06 AM Two things. 1: Gods don't need to trust people. They're gods.
Elaborating: I see no problem in allowing convicted criminals to buy guns, assuming you could monitor them every second of every day and know exactly what they are doing. people can't do this, so we don't allow convicted criminals to buy guns. Gods can do this. The "once-evil-cleric-but-now-converted-to-pelor-but-secretly-still-evil" cleric isn't going to be able to finish the evil cackle before burning down that orphanage with Pelor's magic before he either loses his magic or get's smitten. The god's aren't pointlessly trusting the new converts, they're giving them a longer rope so it's easier to hang themselves.
2: Since when are they traitors? Converting an evil deity to a good one isn't traitorious: It's repentance. and vice versa, good-to-evil might be a traitor's act, but evil doesn't really mind traitors.
Going good to good might be a little difficult, but really, as long as your new god isn't contradictory to your old one, it shouldn't be a problem. Would the british army really care if one of their top soldiers became an american halfway through world war II? Not really, they're still on the same side.
Feor
02-22-06, 01:59 AM See, I prefer to think of the D&D gods similarly to the old Olypian Gods. Omnipotent, but not Omniscient. If they want to know what going on with the guy they would have to watch him 24/7, ignoring everything else. Also, presumably, if he fled back to his own temple with his secrets, he'd get the protection of his old god to prevent himself being smitten out of hand like that. Not that I think the gods would smite him out of hand, tht's just rediculous and would make the game unplayable if it was possible. They could certainly tell their actual loyal followers what was happening, but hed be taken down by mortal means, possibly mortals channelling the god's power.
Macgyver
02-22-06, 02:41 AM After all, Dnd gods are neither omnipotent or omniscient. They are mighty and immortal, but they have limitations (just like the gods from the Olympian or Asgardian panthenon).

Powerful, spell bestowing gods are likely to have excellent methods of information gathering (scrying, informants, clergy, et cetera), and won't miss much about such a matter of particular interest as say, a clerical conversion to a diametrically opposite alignment.
Lina_Inverse
02-22-06, 03:49 AM Your charecter gets an atonement by a fellow priest of his new deity after proveing his changed faith. And thats that. No reason to ruin a good roleplaying thread with screwy mechanics. Haveing to go though an adventure as an expert sucks enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gruffmug 02-20-06, 11:23 PM	What happens to a cleric who shitches gods? In our campaign we had a cleric of pelor get hit with an alignment change. He is no longer able to reciece the blessings of pelor and is seeking a diety to follow. I can not find a reference for this situation. I know there is one out there. Can anyone help with this one? Or is simply an ex-cleric?
BlaineTog 02-20-06, 11:25 PM	As far as I know, there are no in-game mechanics to deal with something like this. You're probably going to have to make up something yourself, like some sort of ritual a cleric of the new god can perform. I suggest making it a little bit more difficult to switch than that, though, as one would presume the god would want to test the loyalty of the new cleric. PS: I personally think effects that force an alighmnent change should be removed from the game post haste.
serow_#R 02-20-06, 11:38 PM	there's the spell atonement... i suppose u could use it together with a small sidequest to either get back in favour with pelor, or with the new church
Wharin 02-20-06, 11:48 PM	Well, technically using the rules presented in the PHB, there are no rules for switching gods, either for doing it without ceremony, or being able to do it at all. In fact you don't even have to worship a god. Now, that said, there is a presedence how to handle it given in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When a cleric switches gods, be it because he was cast down by his god or because he refuses to worship him/her anymore, he first looses his powers, then he has Atonement cast on him by a cleric or some other divine agent of their new god.
Feor 02-20-06, 11:53 PM	You could also abandone your regular clerical abilities and go the way of the Ur-Priest. Other than that, you could probably find a newly appropriate diety and pledge alleigance to them. You'd probably have to switch Domains, and if I was DM I'd have you start out oy able to cast spells as a 1st Level cleric, granting you some more spells for every fraction of a level, and then giving you full casting back when you leveled.
fishtailsam 02-20-06, 11:55 PM	Now this is totally My campaign spesific, but, if a cleric in my game wanted to change Gods he would have to START OVER in the class, he retains HP, saves etc. but looses class abilitys and spellcasting.
Seerow 02-21-06, 12:34 AM	Well note that his alignment change wasn't of his volition, so that seems really unfair to the player in question. Albeit it makes sense, I'd rather get an atonement spell as suggested above.
Gruffmug 02-21-06, 01:14 AM	Was there a level loss involed in the discription in the forgotten realms source book or another book in the setting? Also what page would I find that on? My DM would really like this info. We tend to be fairly by the book in our campaign. The PC alignment was caused by magic but he did had a chance to retain his old alignment. It (the fix) was a strechening on realism so he said he would live with it. Now we are kinda at a loss of what to do. I figure there has to be something after all part of "Ciricks" The Mad gods theme was converting other priest. I just need to find rules for it. There had to be something for Liera's, baul's, Bane's and Merkul's priests. gruffmug
Vikjunk 02-21-06, 02:14 AM	Was there a level loss involed in the discription in the forgotten realms source book or another book in the setting? Also what page would I find that on? My DM would really like this info. We tend to be fairly by the book in our campaign. The PC alignment was caused by magic but he did had a chance to retain his old alignment. It (the fix) was a strechening on realism so he said he would live with it. Now we are kinda at a loss of what to do. I figure there has to be something after all part of "Ciricks" The Mad gods theme was converting other priest. I just need to find rules for it. There had to be something for Liera's, baul's, Bane's and Merkul's priests. gruffmug There is no loss of level in of the paragraph on Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting pg. 233 about Changing Deities. You do have to go through a quest and have Atonement by a representative of the faith to change Deities for a divine spellcaster though. I think the thing with fishtailsam is that most likely he feels that changing deities is a major thing and shouldn't be taken lightly. But I like the quest thing since it doesn't totally gimp a player that wants to change is character in the middle of a campaign, but it lets the DM set the quest for a character he feels that is appropriate. Like a Cleric of St. Cuthbert should be able to change into a Cleric of Heironeous fairly easily and the quest to change should be that difficult since both religions put great emphasis chivalry but differ how they enforce the Law so it shouldn’t take that much to gain the trust of the other god. But if a former Cleric of Mystra wanted to become a Cleric of Shar it should be a major quest since they are rivals so it would take a major effort for a character to gain the trust of Shar.
kraegor 02-21-06, 03:51 PM	Now this is totally My campaign spesific, but, if a cleric in my game wanted to change Gods he would have to START OVER in the class, he retains HP, saves etc. but looses class abilitys and spellcasting. Unfortunately most players switch God's because the DM stuck them with something crappy like an alignment change, or lycanthropy, or some roleplaying reason. Something this harsh as a punishment for changing Gods is a roleplaying killer. No character would ever switch thier God due to a roleplaying reason if they knew that 7 levels of thier class would just go "poof".
SiouLubb 02-21-06, 04:31 PM	What's the new alignment? What happens from here kind of depends on the DM and the player. They should get together and talk about what they both want out of this. There's a great roleplaying experience to be had out of this. I'll assume that the alignment change was away from Lawful Good and towards something either evil or much more selfish, something like CN. How would the cleric react? Remember, he's been worshipping Pelor for years, devoting himself and his efforts to the God. in the PC's eyes, just as he had a revelation about the world and how the world works (his alignment change), the God he worshipped turned away from him. Let's assume the alignment change was to evil- The source of his POWER turned away from him, abandoned him and left him to die as a normal, unspectacular commoner. (Admittedly with higher saves, HP, BAB, etc) Pretty good odds that the PC might turn very, very angry against Pelor. "Why have you rejected me, the one who was devoted to you?!? WHY?!? Reference Anakin Skywalker for ideas.... So at that point, perhaps the PC decides to seek out Pelor's nemesis and offer his worship, hoping to be accepted, swearing revenge on Pelor "I will worship your dark majesty for all eternity with my immortal soul if you channel through me your dark power so that I may destroy Pelor and his works...." Or, perhaps the Dark Gods already have their eye on the PC and send a representative to make him an offer he can't refuse. If you really want to mix things up, you could have the PC become a Warlock instead of a cleric of a Dark God. Perhaps there's some sort of dark equivalent to the Dragonborn process that the PC could undergo. Imagine the dialogue you could have between the PC and a representative of the dark powers. Perhaps the representative doesn't explain who he represents, but just vaguely refers to being aware of the betrayal the PC has jjust suffered. There are others who have suffered from Pelor's trechery....we know what it is to lose everything you lived for, just because you questioned your lord's edicts. There is a way to make Pelor pay attention to you again, to bask in his radiance- as you assert the power that he tried to take away from you...... Yes. There are powers who know that you are worthy, that you should be raised up above the masses. The price of such power is harsh- but the power is greater than that which you have been wrongly stripped of. To prove that you wish this power, here is what you must do.... The road to evil clericdom/warlockdom is then either short or long at the DM's choice. Now if the alignment change is non-evil, another path which could be taken is the PC tryiing to come back to Pelor. Trying to understand why the deity cut him off. Basically, you'd have to quest to regain Pelor's favour, questing to do deeds which would naturally shift your alignment back to LG, or remove your curse.
mrurbanitesmiley 02-21-06, 05:57 PM	There were rules for this in Defenders of the Faith, the old 3.0 cleric/pally splatbook, but I don't remember what they are. How I would rule it: Cleric loses all spellcasting/class abilities until he finds a new god and completes an atonement and possibly a quest. Forcing the character to start over is cruel and non-logical. Do you think Pelor is going to punish a convert from an evil god to Pelor by stunting his spellcasting abilities? No. He'll give the convert as much power as he can, to keep him in the fold, and to make him serve as a shining example to other evildoers.
Feor 02-21-06, 08:24 PM	There were rules for this in Defenders of the Faith, the old 3.0 cleric/pally splatbook, but I don't remember what they are. How I would rule it: Cleric loses all spellcasting/class abilities until he finds a new god and completes an atonement and possibly a quest. Forcing the character to start over is cruel and non-logical. Do you think Pelor is going to punish a convert from an evil god to Pelor by stunting his spellcasting abilities? No. He'll give the convert as much power as he can, to keep him in the fold, and to make him serve as a shining example to other evildoers. I doubt he'd give him as power as he could. The guy is still a traitor. He might give him some power, then as he proved his loyalty give him more and more power. Hence my incremental return to his old power level.
Darth Sephiroth 02-21-06, 09:57 PM	I doubt he'd give him as power as he could. The guy is still a traitor. He might give him some power, then as he proved his loyalty give him more and more power. Hence my incremental return to his old power level. I've had it happen in both directions, one player was basically redeemed when some thing happened and he switched gods. In another I had one who fell to the darkness and turned on his former god. But the situation doesn't always make them a traitor, in fact in some situations, he leaves one diety because the diety betrayed him.
Feor 02-21-06, 10:25 PM	Regardless of how he found his new god, I'd imagine there's still be a degree of mistrust at first. Simply heaping every power & secret you can spare on him could just be giving him all your knowledge for him to take back to his temple. Something especially undesirable if it was, say, an Elf betrayingto Grummsh or some such unlikely switch.
Macgyver 02-21-06, 10:39 PM	A cleric need not have a patron diety in order to recieve spells in the first place. I just had a great idea while reading this topic. Allow him all of his regular abilities, except for his domain spells, which he will have to find a new diety/aligned power in order to recieve, along with, most likely, a change of domains. This is rational so long as the cleric in question aligns himself with his new alignment, which I assume was brought about by character action. This is what I would do, as a DM. Of course, it would also make sense to revoke all of his spellcasting powers and have the slowly return to him, level by level, at your discretion (a single level of spellcasting per day, per week, per well roleplayed situation in context, et cetera).
Darth Sephiroth 02-21-06, 11:12 PM	I wouldn't allow them to go to a diety who hates their race. Gruumish would dislike elves, but Hextor would probably enjoy having a fallen cleric of Heironeous serving him. It just sort of makes sense
Feor 02-21-06, 11:44 PM	Yeah, Heironeous to Hextor is a good example. If such a cleric were to make the switch, and Hextor heaped everything he could on him, then it turns out it was a trick, and the extended Morality Undone wears off, the Cleric goes back to his own temple, Atones, and has all teh secrets of the Temple of Hextor with him.
mrurbanitesmiley 02-22-06, 12:06 AM	Two things. 1: Gods don't need to trust people. They're gods. Elaborating: I see no problem in allowing convicted criminals to buy guns, assuming you could monitor them every second of every day and know exactly what they are doing. people can't do this, so we don't allow convicted criminals to buy guns. Gods can do this. The "once-evil-cleric-but-now-converted-to-pelor-but-secretly-still-evil" cleric isn't going to be able to finish the evil cackle before burning down that orphanage with Pelor's magic before he either loses his magic or get's smitten. The god's aren't pointlessly trusting the new converts, they're giving them a longer rope so it's easier to hang themselves. 2: Since when are they traitors? Converting an evil deity to a good one isn't traitorious: It's repentance. and vice versa, good-to-evil might be a traitor's act, but evil doesn't really mind traitors. Going good to good might be a little difficult, but really, as long as your new god isn't contradictory to your old one, it shouldn't be a problem. Would the british army really care if one of their top soldiers became an american halfway through world war II? Not really, they're still on the same side.
Feor 02-22-06, 01:59 AM	See, I prefer to think of the D&D gods similarly to the old Olypian Gods. Omnipotent, but not Omniscient. If they want to know what going on with the guy they would have to watch him 24/7, ignoring everything else. Also, presumably, if he fled back to his own temple with his secrets, he'd get the protection of his old god to prevent himself being smitten out of hand like that. Not that I think the gods would smite him out of hand, tht's just rediculous and would make the game unplayable if it was possible. They could certainly tell their actual loyal followers what was happening, but hed be taken down by mortal means, possibly mortals channelling the god's power.
Macgyver 02-22-06, 02:41 AM	After all, Dnd gods are neither omnipotent or omniscient. They are mighty and immortal, but they have limitations (just like the gods from the Olympian or Asgardian panthenon). Powerful, spell bestowing gods are likely to have excellent methods of information gathering (scrying, informants, clergy, et cetera), and won't miss much about such a matter of particular interest as say, a clerical conversion to a diametrically opposite alignment.
Lina_Inverse 02-22-06, 03:49 AM	Your charecter gets an atonement by a fellow priest of his new deity after proveing his changed faith. And thats that. No reason to ruin a good roleplaying thread with screwy mechanics. Haveing to go though an adventure as an expert sucks enough.