Can a cleric fill the rogue's role? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a cleric fill the rogue's role? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaim
02-07-08, 11:52 AM Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred fist to fill the role as good as possible for searching, trapfinding and disarming (or remote-triggering) traps.

So far i have, at level 5, a search bonus of +5 (cross class), as well as the detect secret doors and find traps spells.

Any other hints on how to improve on this without a level dip?
Books allowed: Core, Completes, Faerun stuff
Malchius
02-07-08, 12:06 PM This may not be helpful if you're midgame but if you're just creating the character it might be worth being kobold and taking the kobold domain, it grants search, disable device and trapfinding.

Kobolds-Playing to their strengths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

Scroll down to Kobold Religion and take a look.
copperwyrmling
02-07-08, 05:05 PM Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred fist to fill the role as good as possible for searching, trapfinding and disarming (or remote-triggering) traps.

So far i have, at level 5, a search bonus of +5 (cross class), as well as the detect secret doors and find traps spells.

Any other hints on how to improve on this without a level dip?
Books allowed: Core, Completes, Faerun stuff

Divine Insight, from Complete Adventurer. L2 cleric spell, personal, gives a large bonus to a skill check. However, it only works on a single skill check per casting, so it's better with Disable Device than with Search.
danielinthewolvesden
02-07-08, 09:19 PM No. You do not have enuf skill points. Sure with certain spells and some weird Web enhancements, you can be OK for one trap or so.

However, it is too late to take the Kobold Domain anyway (and likely you are not a Kobold).Nor is that Domain allowed by your DM according to the list.

Nor are you a Cloistered Cleric (which is NOT a "Cleric"- it is a different and optional class).

I wanted to make those very clear as soon some folks from the CO boards will come by and insist that by streching what is allowed and what is a "cleric" and by using every spell for trapfinding, then yes, a "cleric" "can" be a trapfinder. They are all highly debatable, and what is more importantly NONE of them apply in your case.

Who else is in your party?
Jaim
02-08-08, 03:32 AM There's a wizard, a warpriest and a spiked chain fighter in the group. As there seem not to be more options i'll just go for a good search check (maybe even take skill focus, and find traps gives a 1/2 caster level bonus too) and trigger found traps with some animated skeletons or summoned critters. Most important thing is finding those secrets caches and doors though as traps usually do not kill a party. Our Shackled City campaign came to a grinding halt at level 16 because the party couldn't find important hidden clues and treasures in the Fiery Sanctum.
Maybe i'll look into persisting find traps too, and if it doesn't work out the fighter will just have to take a rogue dip. Or maybe there are magic items that improve your search check?
Squaba
02-08-08, 03:37 AM Get a hireling, or a follower, who is a rogue. It's simple, and a lot more fun than trying to do a job your class just isnt cut out for.
Jaim
02-08-08, 03:57 AM Here's what i found in the SRD:

Goggles of Minute Seeing, +5 competence bonus on Search checks, Price 1,250 gp;
Elixir of Vision, +10 competence bonus on Search checks for 1 hour, Price 250 gp;
Lens of Detection, +5 unnamed bonus on Search checks, Price 3,500 gp;
Robe of Eyes; +10 competence bonus on Search checks and Spot checks, Price 120,000 gp;

One of those items, combined with my cross class ranks, the spell and maybe skill focus should provide enough search skill to make a rogue obsolete ?
JaronK
02-08-08, 03:58 AM It's very easy to be a skillmonkey as a cleric.

Guidance of the Avatar and similar spells let you hit skill checks at level 3 that a rogue at level 10 would be jealous of.

The Kobold Domain gives you Search as a class skill and trapfinding. Other domains can give you other skills.

Cloistered Cleric (UA) has 6 skill points per level, losing a few other things (including BAB). This is fine, just use Divine Favor/Might to fix the problem.

You may want to be human and take a one level dip in Rogue so you can take Able Learner and have all the class skills you might ever want.

JaronK
Jaim
02-08-08, 04:06 AM Sounds good but all that is not an option to my existing character, as danielinthewolvesden already said.

I don't like to have a hireling with me but it reminded me that other party members can help with the search check, giving another +2 bonus.

And i just found another tidbit: If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks to find secret doors or hidden compartments. As my cleric has the Knowledge (and Darkness) domain, knowledge skills are class skills, and i won't pass that up.

Btw, my Int is 13, race human, so i get 4 skill points per level as cleric and 6 skill points per monk and sacred fist level.
JaronK
02-08-08, 04:57 AM Then consider a dip into contemplative... which would let you snag the kobold domain if you're a cleric who doesn't follow a god and it's thematically appropriate. That would give you trapfinding and search.

JaronK
danielinthewolvesden
02-08-08, 09:10 PM Sounds good but all that is not an option to my existing character, as danielinthewolvesden already said.
.

I told you so.:P
Drackthor
02-08-08, 09:18 PM In the simplest of similes, I'd have to say a Cleric can find traps on about the same terms that an infant can fight Mike Tyson, the result in either situation, you're going to be kicked around pretty damn hard.
Erato
02-08-08, 09:54 PM Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred<snip>Is this your role, or your actual classes? And what's your character's race?
Krusk
02-08-08, 10:46 PM Start prepping summon monster 1.

Now instead of walking down coradors that are probably trapped, just have your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything.

Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset.
Squaba
02-08-08, 10:53 PM ....your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything.

Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset.

This is the second or third time this was suggested... there seems, to me at least, to be something fairly evil about summoning a creature from it's home plane and then using it as a meat shield in a situation where it's almost sure to die.
Jaim
02-09-08, 02:40 AM Is this your role, or your actual classes? And what's your character's race?
Those are the classes (well cleric4/monk1 as she is only level 5 by now) and race is human. And i know Sacred Fist is not the most powerful way to go but it fits the flavour so well and i have amazing stats (i rolled 17 17 14 13 17 9) so i chose something not too strong in order to not outshine the others who didn't roll so well.
This is the second or third time this was suggested... there seems, to me at least, to be something fairly evil about summoning a creature from it's home plane and then using it as a meat shield in a situation where it's almost sure to die.
That's fine, the character is a LE cleric of Shar (That's a little like Vecna but in Faerun), so i went for a knowledge and secrets theme. And i planned on using animated dead for this purpose instead of spell slots.
Lord Karsus
02-09-08, 09:33 AM -Clerics (in my mind) are very versatile, and depending on your deity, or whatever Domains you choose, can just about fill the niche of most core classes.
Mr_Teapot
02-09-08, 10:19 AM That's fine, the character is a LE cleric of Shar (That's a little like Vecna but in Faerun), so i went for a knowledge and secrets theme. And i planned on using animated dead for this purpose instead of spell slots.

You could pick up the Summon Elemental reserve from Complete Mage, to waste fewer spell slots on summoned things. But that requires 4th level spells, which you don't have yet.

Picking up the Leadership feat at 6th level and taking a rogue cohort would work just fine. It doesn't illustrate how a cleric can fulfill the rogue role, but there's only so much that can be done with a character already created.

Persisting Find Traps would work but requires spending two feats and a high level spell slot, or using Divine Metamagic cheese.

And since it seems like you are set on a PRC, you can't try for Black Flame Zealot.
danielinthewolvesden
02-09-08, 01:43 PM Start prepping summon monster 1.

Now instead of walking down coradors that are probably trapped, just have your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything.

Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset.

And then a 3rd, and 4th and forever on traps that do reset? Nor can summons animals open doors or chests. AND certain traps will not go off for summoned animals- Explosive runes for example. Finally, in most dungeons, you'd have to do this dozens of times a day, and so that would be all your spells. No Summoning for routine trap removal is a bad idea. It can work in some cases, so it's not bad to have one or two such spells on hand.
Krusk
02-09-08, 03:37 PM And then a 3rd, and 4th and forever on traps that do reset? Nor can summons animals open doors or chests. AND certain traps will not go off for summoned animals- Explosive runes for example. Finally, in most dungeons, you'd have to do this dozens of times a day, and so that would be all your spells. No Summoning for routine trap removal is a bad idea. It can work in some cases, so it's not bad to have one or two such spells on hand.

If they do reset, you resort to actually disableing them or simply going around. You know exactly where they are now.

Dont need to open doors or chests. Also summon something strong enough and it can break them down/open.

Why would an explosive rune not go off for a summoned dretch but it would go off on a player?

No it would be all of your level 1 spells. Or even just some of them.

I didnt mean best idea ever, but i did mean a useful idea.

As for evil, well hey do it to dretches. Now you can get by with the same logic of a malconvoker.
danielinthewolvesden
02-10-08, 01:59 AM If they do reset, you resort to actually disableing them or simply going around. You know exactly where they are now.

Dont need to open doors or chests. Also summon something strong enough and it can break them down/open.

Why would an explosive rune not go off for a summoned dretch but it would go off on a player?

How do you disable a trap without Disable Device? How do you "go around" a dungeon corridor? (Without T-port, etc).

Smash the chest and destroy some loot. Smash the door and you can not close it back, which you may very well want to do. And Summoned monstsrs attack your foes.They do not do chores.

You have to read Explosive Runes.
Krusk
02-10-08, 03:13 AM How do you disable a trap without Disable Device? How do you "go around" a dungeon corridor? (Without T-port, etc).

Smash the chest and destroy some loot. Smash the door and you can not close it back, which you may very well want to do. And Summoned monstsrs attack your foes.They do not do chores.

You have to read Explosive Runes.

With either find traps, or simply by walking around it. Oh my dretch fell through a trap door over there but then it reset? i cast fly.

-why not use t-port ect?-

Smash the chest and destroy loot how? chest is full of gold, somehow breaking the lock of the chest destroys the contents? play too many computer games?

Shut a door you can get over.

Summoned monsters can do chores if you tell them to.

so tell the dretch to read the paper/rune before you do. its not a barbarian.
danielinthewolvesden
02-10-08, 12:55 PM With either find traps, or simply by walking around it. Oh my dretch fell through a trap door over there but then it reset? i cast fly.

-why not use t-port ect?-

Smash the chest and destroy loot how? chest is full of gold, somehow breaking the lock of the chest destroys the contents? play too many computer games?

so tell the dretch to read the paper/rune before you do. its not a barbarian.

Sure, and that's a 3rd level spell gone.

Sure and that's 5th level spell gone.

Potions. Ointments. Artwork.

Only if you know there is a rune.
Squaba
02-10-08, 01:25 PM As an intelligent critter the gretch can inform you of the rune. I still stand by my previous post of "Get a hireling."
Krusk
02-10-08, 02:39 PM I still don't see how smashing a lock destroys anything that is inside the chest.
Nathreet
02-10-08, 02:50 PM ^ depends how carefully you smash the lock. Probably not very.

Summoned monsters don't die, they just wink back to their original plane. Send them into traps might hurt though. Also burns spell splots like mad to summon 2 monsters per corrider. And a find traps spell only lasts 1 min/level. So you're stuck in the same boat there.

Best bet is to take a 1 level dip into rogue. You get trapfinding and the same maximum ranks in search/etc. as a pure rogue. You just need to spend 2 skill points per rank in future (non-rogue) levels. But even if you don't max them out it's that trapfinding ability that's the bugger. You cannot find magical traps or traps with a DC higher than 20 no matter how high your search roll is, unless you have trapfinding. Or unless you cast find traps (which essential gives you trapfinding and a +10 for the duration of the spell).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaim 02-07-08, 11:52 AM	Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred fist to fill the role as good as possible for searching, trapfinding and disarming (or remote-triggering) traps. So far i have, at level 5, a search bonus of +5 (cross class), as well as the detect secret doors and find traps spells. Any other hints on how to improve on this without a level dip? Books allowed: Core, Completes, Faerun stuff
Malchius 02-07-08, 12:06 PM	This may not be helpful if you're midgame but if you're just creating the character it might be worth being kobold and taking the kobold domain, it grants search, disable device and trapfinding. Kobolds-Playing to their strengths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Scroll down to Kobold Religion and take a look.
copperwyrmling 02-07-08, 05:05 PM	Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred fist to fill the role as good as possible for searching, trapfinding and disarming (or remote-triggering) traps. So far i have, at level 5, a search bonus of +5 (cross class), as well as the detect secret doors and find traps spells. Any other hints on how to improve on this without a level dip? Books allowed: Core, Completes, Faerun stuff Divine Insight, from Complete Adventurer. L2 cleric spell, personal, gives a large bonus to a skill check. However, it only works on a single skill check per casting, so it's better with Disable Device than with Search.
danielinthewolvesden 02-07-08, 09:19 PM	No. You do not have enuf skill points. Sure with certain spells and some weird Web enhancements, you can be OK for one trap or so. However, it is too late to take the Kobold Domain anyway (and likely you are not a Kobold).Nor is that Domain allowed by your DM according to the list. Nor are you a Cloistered Cleric (which is NOT a "Cleric"- it is a different and optional class). I wanted to make those very clear as soon some folks from the CO boards will come by and insist that by streching what is allowed and what is a "cleric" and by using every spell for trapfinding, then yes, a "cleric" "can" be a trapfinder. They are all highly debatable, and what is more importantly NONE of them apply in your case. Who else is in your party?
Jaim 02-08-08, 03:32 AM	There's a wizard, a warpriest and a spiked chain fighter in the group. As there seem not to be more options i'll just go for a good search check (maybe even take skill focus, and find traps gives a 1/2 caster level bonus too) and trigger found traps with some animated skeletons or summoned critters. Most important thing is finding those secrets caches and doors though as traps usually do not kill a party. Our Shackled City campaign came to a grinding halt at level 16 because the party couldn't find important hidden clues and treasures in the Fiery Sanctum. Maybe i'll look into persisting find traps too, and if it doesn't work out the fighter will just have to take a rogue dip. Or maybe there are magic items that improve your search check?
Squaba 02-08-08, 03:37 AM	Get a hireling, or a follower, who is a rogue. It's simple, and a lot more fun than trying to do a job your class just isnt cut out for.
Jaim 02-08-08, 03:57 AM	Here's what i found in the SRD: Goggles of Minute Seeing, +5 competence bonus on Search checks, Price 1,250 gp; Elixir of Vision, +10 competence bonus on Search checks for 1 hour, Price 250 gp; Lens of Detection, +5 unnamed bonus on Search checks, Price 3,500 gp; Robe of Eyes; +10 competence bonus on Search checks and Spot checks, Price 120,000 gp; One of those items, combined with my cross class ranks, the spell and maybe skill focus should provide enough search skill to make a rogue obsolete ?
JaronK 02-08-08, 03:58 AM	It's very easy to be a skillmonkey as a cleric. Guidance of the Avatar and similar spells let you hit skill checks at level 3 that a rogue at level 10 would be jealous of. The Kobold Domain gives you Search as a class skill and trapfinding. Other domains can give you other skills. Cloistered Cleric (UA) has 6 skill points per level, losing a few other things (including BAB). This is fine, just use Divine Favor/Might to fix the problem. You may want to be human and take a one level dip in Rogue so you can take Able Learner and have all the class skills you might ever want. JaronK
Jaim 02-08-08, 04:06 AM	Sounds good but all that is not an option to my existing character, as danielinthewolvesden already said. I don't like to have a hireling with me but it reminded me that other party members can help with the search check, giving another +2 bonus. And i just found another tidbit: If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks to find secret doors or hidden compartments. As my cleric has the Knowledge (and Darkness) domain, knowledge skills are class skills, and i won't pass that up. Btw, my Int is 13, race human, so i get 4 skill points per level as cleric and 6 skill points per monk and sacred fist level.
JaronK 02-08-08, 04:57 AM	Then consider a dip into contemplative... which would let you snag the kobold domain if you're a cleric who doesn't follow a god and it's thematically appropriate. That would give you trapfinding and search. JaronK
danielinthewolvesden 02-08-08, 09:10 PM	Sounds good but all that is not an option to my existing character, as danielinthewolvesden already said. . I told you so.:P
Drackthor 02-08-08, 09:18 PM	In the simplest of similes, I'd have to say a Cleric can find traps on about the same terms that an infant can fight Mike Tyson, the result in either situation, you're going to be kicked around pretty damn hard.
Erato 02-08-08, 09:54 PM	Our party lacks a rogue and i want my cleric/monk/sacred<snip>Is this your role, or your actual classes? And what's your character's race?
Krusk 02-08-08, 10:46 PM	Start prepping summon monster 1. Now instead of walking down coradors that are probably trapped, just have your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything. Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset.
Squaba 02-08-08, 10:53 PM	....your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything. Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset. This is the second or third time this was suggested... there seems, to me at least, to be something fairly evil about summoning a creature from it's home plane and then using it as a meat shield in a situation where it's almost sure to die.
Jaim 02-09-08, 02:40 AM	Is this your role, or your actual classes? And what's your character's race? Those are the classes (well cleric4/monk1 as she is only level 5 by now) and race is human. And i know Sacred Fist is not the most powerful way to go but it fits the flavour so well and i have amazing stats (i rolled 17 17 14 13 17 9) so i chose something not too strong in order to not outshine the others who didn't roll so well. This is the second or third time this was suggested... there seems, to me at least, to be something fairly evil about summoning a creature from it's home plane and then using it as a meat shield in a situation where it's almost sure to die. That's fine, the character is a LE cleric of Shar (That's a little like Vecna but in Faerun), so i went for a knowledge and secrets theme. And i planned on using animated dead for this purpose instead of spell slots.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 09:33 AM	-Clerics (in my mind) are very versatile, and depending on your deity, or whatever Domains you choose, can just about fill the niche of most core classes.
Mr_Teapot 02-09-08, 10:19 AM	That's fine, the character is a LE cleric of Shar (That's a little like Vecna but in Faerun), so i went for a knowledge and secrets theme. And i planned on using animated dead for this purpose instead of spell slots. You could pick up the Summon Elemental reserve from Complete Mage, to waste fewer spell slots on summoned things. But that requires 4th level spells, which you don't have yet. Picking up the Leadership feat at 6th level and taking a rogue cohort would work just fine. It doesn't illustrate how a cleric can fulfill the rogue role, but there's only so much that can be done with a character already created. Persisting Find Traps would work but requires spending two feats and a high level spell slot, or using Divine Metamagic cheese. And since it seems like you are set on a PRC, you can't try for Black Flame Zealot.
danielinthewolvesden 02-09-08, 01:43 PM	Start prepping summon monster 1. Now instead of walking down coradors that are probably trapped, just have your summon make a mad dash. Triggering anything. Just be sure to send a second to make sure none reset. And then a 3rd, and 4th and forever on traps that do reset? Nor can summons animals open doors or chests. AND certain traps will not go off for summoned animals- Explosive runes for example. Finally, in most dungeons, you'd have to do this dozens of times a day, and so that would be all your spells. No Summoning for routine trap removal is a bad idea. It can work in some cases, so it's not bad to have one or two such spells on hand.
Krusk 02-09-08, 03:37 PM	And then a 3rd, and 4th and forever on traps that do reset? Nor can summons animals open doors or chests. AND certain traps will not go off for summoned animals- Explosive runes for example. Finally, in most dungeons, you'd have to do this dozens of times a day, and so that would be all your spells. No Summoning for routine trap removal is a bad idea. It can work in some cases, so it's not bad to have one or two such spells on hand. If they do reset, you resort to actually disableing them or simply going around. You know exactly where they are now. Dont need to open doors or chests. Also summon something strong enough and it can break them down/open. Why would an explosive rune not go off for a summoned dretch but it would go off on a player? No it would be all of your level 1 spells. Or even just some of them. I didnt mean best idea ever, but i did mean a useful idea. As for evil, well hey do it to dretches. Now you can get by with the same logic of a malconvoker.
danielinthewolvesden 02-10-08, 01:59 AM	If they do reset, you resort to actually disableing them or simply going around. You know exactly where they are now. Dont need to open doors or chests. Also summon something strong enough and it can break them down/open. Why would an explosive rune not go off for a summoned dretch but it would go off on a player? How do you disable a trap without Disable Device? How do you "go around" a dungeon corridor? (Without T-port, etc). Smash the chest and destroy some loot. Smash the door and you can not close it back, which you may very well want to do. And Summoned monstsrs attack your foes.They do not do chores. You have to read Explosive Runes.
Krusk 02-10-08, 03:13 AM	How do you disable a trap without Disable Device? How do you "go around" a dungeon corridor? (Without T-port, etc). Smash the chest and destroy some loot. Smash the door and you can not close it back, which you may very well want to do. And Summoned monstsrs attack your foes.They do not do chores. You have to read Explosive Runes. With either find traps, or simply by walking around it. Oh my dretch fell through a trap door over there but then it reset? i cast fly. -why not use t-port ect?- Smash the chest and destroy loot how? chest is full of gold, somehow breaking the lock of the chest destroys the contents? play too many computer games? Shut a door you can get over. Summoned monsters can do chores if you tell them to. so tell the dretch to read the paper/rune before you do. its not a barbarian.
danielinthewolvesden 02-10-08, 12:55 PM	With either find traps, or simply by walking around it. Oh my dretch fell through a trap door over there but then it reset? i cast fly. -why not use t-port ect?- Smash the chest and destroy loot how? chest is full of gold, somehow breaking the lock of the chest destroys the contents? play too many computer games? so tell the dretch to read the paper/rune before you do. its not a barbarian. Sure, and that's a 3rd level spell gone. Sure and that's 5th level spell gone. Potions. Ointments. Artwork. Only if you know there is a rune.
Squaba 02-10-08, 01:25 PM	As an intelligent critter the gretch can inform you of the rune. I still stand by my previous post of "Get a hireling."
Krusk 02-10-08, 02:39 PM	I still don't see how smashing a lock destroys anything that is inside the chest.
Nathreet 02-10-08, 02:50 PM	^ depends how carefully you smash the lock. Probably not very. Summoned monsters don't die, they just wink back to their original plane. Send them into traps might hurt though. Also burns spell splots like mad to summon 2 monsters per corrider. And a find traps spell only lasts 1 min/level. So you're stuck in the same boat there. Best bet is to take a 1 level dip into rogue. You get trapfinding and the same maximum ranks in search/etc. as a pure rogue. You just need to spend 2 skill points per rank in future (non-rogue) levels. But even if you don't max them out it's that trapfinding ability that's the bugger. You cannot find magical traps or traps with a DC higher than 20 no matter how high your search roll is, unless you have trapfinding. Or unless you cast find traps (which essential gives you trapfinding and a +10 for the duration of the spell).