Can a Core Class stay good through all levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a Core Class stay good through all levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Verdauga
05-22-06, 10:03 PM Hey all,

Background for me, I'm a 1st ed DM and Player, and I am now involved in a 3.5 game. I am a cleric of the 6th lvl, straight up, and looking through all the books, it seems like if you don't multi-class or especially go to a prestige class you become a rather poor character.

Now I want to know

a) If most people agree that multi-classing and/or prestige classes are always better then staying core.

b) If so, what things would a cleric desire in a prestige class, and I have looked at every single one and don't like any. I am trying to think of some way to make me able to stay Cleric through 20 and after. Maybe make an Archcleric prestige class or somesuch.

TY Much,
Verdauga

Hardcore Core Classer
Kresalak
05-22-06, 10:08 PM Cleric 20 is very viable. Not as good as using some PrCs that give full spellcasting, but few to no PrC abilities are as powerful as your cleric casting. Honestly, I too have found few good cleric PrCs that I want to take. Except Bone Knight, from Five Nations. Bone Knight is awesome in a bag.

Druid 20 is, in fact, the most powerful druid build.

With the advent of the PHB II, fighter 20 is sorta viable.

After you have your 20 cleric caster levels, taking Heirophant is good, since you don't get increased spellcasting after level 20. However, the bonus to caster level each level is still good.
Verdauga
05-22-06, 10:18 PM I'm not to fond of Heirophant either actually. My cleric's ambition is besically to become the Archcleric of his own temple, very dedicated to his deity however, and won't be doing it for any of HIS selfish reasons (Maybe my selfish reasons, I wanna build a stronghold :D ) Hard to find anything that fits in with that, so I may try to come up with a PrC on my own (Assuming here that PrC means Prestige Class)
Fuzzy_Logic
05-22-06, 10:23 PM It all depends on the power level your group is aiming for. most classes are viable to level 20, and many strongly reward staying with them, either because of awesome high-level perks or lots level-based class features. finally, the mroe compelx and multifaceted a class is, the fewer good PrCs tned ot be available and the mroe you're rewarded for keeping it simple.

Ranger's, for instance. I almost always see single-classed rnagers. they already have so many different abilities, it's not owrth multilcassing. plus, rpetty much only prue ranger gives you full baba, all those juicy skills and continued spellcasting, and with ther gith supplements, rangers have some VEYRY ncie high-level spells.

Classes that I usually lookf ro PrCs for

Fighter: actually, usually I see a PrC I like and use fighter to get there

Bard: Because there's NO reason not to go Sublime Chord

Rogue: I don't play these single-classed. sure, they're perfectl playable and have sweet high-level abilities, but I like a little more combat ability.

Classes i often play straight/recommend people play straight:
Wizard: I always did in 3.0, but nowadays full casting PrCs are rare, and there are many more good feats avialable, making the bonus feats good and pre-reqs bad.

Sorcerer: same, plus they have a hard time qualifying

Paladin, Druid, and Ranger: because they are already interesting enough and reward single-classing

Most Supplementla classes: becaus ethey're more focused than core classes, have fewer PrC options, and usually better high-level abilities.
AZNsupermarket
05-22-06, 10:28 PM shifter druid prc in races of eberron is more rewarding than druid 20 (so says my powergaming friend)
serow_#R
05-22-06, 10:36 PM i'd say the ONLY reasons to stay cleric 20 are:
- useful domain powers dependent on cleric level eg. travel, magic, destruction
- turn undead
- feat dependent style you have in mind

most of the time, if a prestige class advances full spellcasting, it's just as good to hop in, since it'll grants you additional class features. if it advances turn undead as well, then it's all the better.
MayhemST
05-23-06, 01:00 AM Every one of the core classes can be played through 20 and stay viable. Some offer better higher end abilities than others though. It's really just what you want to look for in the character.

Multiclassing can be a way to get abit more powerful, but it's not always recommended as sometimes it can just hurt you in the long run (Eg: Fighter/Barbarian = weaker than normal high end Refl/Will Saves).

I dont know what to say other than that...but i dont have access to all the splatbooks around either...i tend to do my gaming online where only the 3 core books are allowed..
GalaGalaxia
05-23-06, 01:23 AM Fighters = low level damage dealers. High levels = You keep the enemies off your parties casters so they can do the work. If you dont like that, go play a caster.

... and if I don't want to be a caster, then what? :plotting:
NightScreamer20
05-23-06, 01:36 AM Honestly my Group today is kinda shunning PrCs for the first time and have come out with wonderful results. We're all ECL 10 atm

I play a Human Cleric of Pipenbotle (Think a Halfling version of Dionysus), we have a Tiefling Fighter who specializes in Wielding a larger than normal Cleaver, a Gloaming Sorcerer who specializes in Illusion and deceit, and finally a Skarn (Magic of Incarnum Race) Rogue, who focuses upon his combat abilities a little more than his actual Rogue-ness.

None of us have ever fallen below -9 hp in battle, we have never come across a creature we needed to defeat, nor have we ever came to a situation in which one of us couldn't obtain the answer too.

Shows us that there is life without PrCs, and it is good.
DarknessEternal
05-23-06, 01:41 AM The only class that's absolutely unreasonable to take all the way to 20 is Sorcerer. They get nothing. In fact, if there were some way to only ever take one level of Sorcerer, everyone who wanted to be one should do that.

No other base class gets a goose egg for going up levels.
belthazzar1113
05-23-06, 01:55 AM for almost every class going up as a PrC focusing on what you end up doing is the best option. Casters can find full spell casting progression classes.

Most of the classes will have a few abilities that you will like and you end up sticking with one that you really like. Take barbarian. they have rage, fast move, uncanny dodge, and DR. Now you might like the idea of being a real tough tank with high hp little armor but the ability to ingore hits. well there is a PrC for that. Or you might like the going crazy and letting it all hang out in a rage, well you have a PrC for that too. Or mabey you like the idea of a feral warrior born in the wilderness fighting with savage power, there is a PrC for that too. If you want to be ok at all three thing stick with core otherwize pick something and specilize.

Most PrCs are either story/world specific or a specilization in a core class or core mechanic. Or they are a gish of two opposed mechanics (armored mages, rageing wizards, ect) so if you like your character and no PrC really fits and you don't feel the need to specilize ten don't. But if you want to eek out all the power you can from a particular ability there is a PrC that does exactly that... or if it fits storyline wize then take the PrC that makes most sense.

From a numbers perspective each class has its highs and lows, every number monky can point out power levels and gaps in each class. So some classes get more out of hiting a PrC for those "gap" levels, and end up a more powerful (numerically) character.

it all works, but in general, yes, a PrC or multiclass combo will net more power though increased diversification and synergy or though extream specilization and stacking. either way works.
Ghostwheel
05-23-06, 02:11 AM I'm not to fond of Heirophant either actually. My cleric's ambition is besically to become the Archcleric of his own temple, very dedicated to his deity however, and won't be doing it for any of HIS selfish reasons (Maybe my selfish reasons, I wanna build a stronghold :D ) Hard to find anything that fits in with that, so I may try to come up with a PrC on my own (Assuming here that PrC means Prestige Class)

I cannot see why you would be looking beyond Cleric if you want to be the "Archcleric" of a temple. There are some positives to be gained from certain PrC's, but that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for.

Depending on the nature of the campaign, and Dm's rulings, some PrC's might make some sense. For instance, if you are in an Undead-heavy campaign, the Radiant Servant of Pelor could help in both a game-play and a role-play sense. Of course, it can be "Radiant Servant of..." whatever Diety your DM allows.

But from what you have stated, Cleric seems to be the best way to go.
tiercel
05-23-06, 02:27 AM Bard: Because there's NO reason not to go Sublime ChordI hear this a lot and I disagree.

Advantage, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10
Skills: Search and Spot become class skills

Bardsong: boost your caster level, freeze enemies in time, and cast, uh, bardic fireball

9th level spells. Yeah, OK, that's pretty big -- but note that you don't get them until character level 19, and you have mini-sorcerer spell progression. (Also the sublime chord spell list is bigger, meaning fewer UMD checks needed -- which is good since UMD isn't a class skill once you go SC.)

Advantage, Bard 20
2 more Reflex save, 3 more BAB

20 more skill points. Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, and UMD remain class skills (unlike with Sublime Chord). Also not restricted to skill choices to qualify for Sublime Chord, particularly those 6 ranks in Profession (astrologer), but also 19 ranks between Knowl (arcana) [which a normal bard might be happy to let the wizard cover] and Spellcraft [ditto].

Bardsong: Inspire Courage increases from +2 to +4, Song of Freedom, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Heroics, 5 more uses of bardic music per day (particularly useful if you have a bardic music using feat from CAdv)

OK, yeah, getting higher level spells is pretty big -- but you get them slower than the sorcerer and at the expense of your skills and your moderate fighting ability (especially when bolstered by bardsong buffs), and you swap your social/buffing bardsong progression for spellcasting bardsong. Sublime Chord is sort of "half bard half sorcerer."

It's certainly not a bad choice, it is very viable. It is just not obviously superior to bard, to me. In particular, I'd say that if you think that getting eventual access to 9th level spells is worth giving up the upper half of bard for, why not just play a Sor/Wiz and get full-on arcane power from Day 1?
Lotus Crane
05-23-06, 02:44 AM It's certainly not a bad choice, it is very viable. It is just not obviously superior to bard, to me. In particular, I'd say that if you think that getting eventual access to 9th level spells is worth giving up the upper half of bard for, why not just play a Sor/Wiz and get full-on arcane power from Day 1?
Because a bard is more likely to survive from day 1, and in many ways, a Sublime Chord actually has more "full-on" arcane power than a sorcerer? A Sublime Chord who uses song of arcane power is effectively 4 caster levels higher than a sorcerer, and has a lot more spell options. A SC doesn't just get 9th level spells (and only 1 level behind a sorcerer), but he also gets to choose from two spell lists. Don't underestimate the power of getting greater dispel magic as a 5th level spell (instead of 6th), or otto's irresistable dance as a 6th level spell (instead of 8th). And what sorcerer wouldn't love to be able to learn glibness, song of discord, improvisation, and cure wounds?

A particularly potent combination is a bard/SC with Song of the Heart and Practiced Spellcaster. By inspiring greatness in yourself and gaining 3 more HD, you also gain 3 more caster levels. With a relatively easy Perform check with song of arcane power, you're a 12th level character with 19th caster level (or 20th if you throw in an orange ioun stone). That's more spellcasting potency than an Archmage or Red Wizard, at that level.

More importantly, you've already received most of the big benefits from being a bard. You already have your maxed out d6 instead of d4 HD at first level, you already have 4 x 6 +Int skill points instead of 4 x 2 + Int skill points at first level, the biggest benefit of having that extra good save was the +2 at 1st level anyway, and you already have the ability to wear a mithral chain shirt (or even a mithral breastplate if you like). The ability to go from that to eventually getting 9th level spells (again, chosen from two spell lists) seems almost brokenly good, even at the cost of losing 20 skill points, 2-3 points each of BAB and Ref save, and never gaining access to song of freedom, inspire heroics, and mass suggesstion. After all, most of the spells you gain can more than make up for that (a SC is one of the few non-suicidal candidates for Tenser's transformation).

In a lot of ways, a bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is probably what the 3.5 sorcerer should have been, with some flavor re-write. While you're right in that a SC is not 100% automatically a better bard (because indeed, he falls behind in some of his bard-ier abilities), I would wager that 75% of the time, he's an overall stronger character. But yes, a pure bard is perfectly viable, at least compared to a pure sorcerer or pure fighter.
NineInchNall
05-23-06, 02:58 AM ... and if I don't want to be a caster, then what? :plotting:

Then either
1) make some house rules to change that dynamic, or
2) accept that the caster/warrior dynamic is inherent to the D&D shtick and go play something else.

You knew the score when you started. The caster/warrior relationship is a major part of what makes the game D&D.
Bob Loblaw
05-23-06, 11:19 AM I have to disagree that the fighter's job is to support the casters. I have seen and played fighters at nearly every level of play and I have to say that the casters do not outshine the fighters in our games. There are a couple of us who really know how to play spellcasters and can show up the other players. We do the same thing when we play fighters though also. It all depends on the group, the players, and the game. Casters are not the absolute power in the game. While it may be different in your games, it most certainly is not the accepted standard in all games.

As for what classes are best for all levels of play, that question can't really be answered without knowing what type of campaign world you will be running. Every class has the potential to be viable or worthless. It just depends on what they have to deal with.
simon_tage
05-23-06, 11:29 AM I have to disagree that the fighter's job is to support the casters. I have seen and played fighters at nearly every level of play and I have to say that the casters do not outshine the fighters in our games. There are a couple of us who really know how to play spellcasters and can show up the other players. We do the same thing when we play fighters though also. It all depends on the group, the players, and the game. Casters are not the absolute power in the game. While it may be different in your games, it most certainly is not the accepted standard in all games.

As for what classes are best for all levels of play, that question can't really be answered without knowing what type of campaign world you will be running. Every class has the potential to be viable or worthless. It just depends on what they have to deal with.

I agree, it is all in how it's played. Every core class is very viable all the way to 20th. Few of my players take PRCs, even fewer multiclass.
NineInchNall
05-23-06, 12:02 PM I agree, it is all in how it's played. Every core class is very viable all the way to 20th. Few of my players take PRCs, even fewer multiclass.

Strike that; reverse it. "Few of my players multiclass; even fewer take PrCs."
eggplantm
05-23-06, 12:21 PM All classes are viable to 20th level. There are some trades for both multiclassing and prestigeclassing.

Multiclassing gives you more options and that is fun and nice but you generally do not get the high end abilities of your class as often as you'd like.

Prestige classing can be a very mixed bag. If the prestige class is well made you will get more powerful in one area at the expense of others and again you get the additional options for multiclassing. In most cases, you will not end up that much more powerful, just powerful in different ways. The bard who prc's into sublime chord becomes a very powerful spellcaster but at the expense of being a better bard and support character. Everything is a trade off.
supadupaman
05-26-06, 08:09 PM I think that most core classes are perfectly playable until lvl 20.
And if they aren't, then they should be.

I've been using this idea when making all of my new or modified classes for my homebrew CS. Unfortunately it doesn't have much stuff here and none of my classes exist on these boards yet, since i do most of my stuff now over at the CBG forums site.
I plan to port some of my classes over here in a bit, and to update the version of my CS i have here, but i just haven't done it yet.
If you want to see them, they're all over at the CBG boards (link in my sig). Just check the Age of Kings CS.
Toxic_Shaman
05-26-06, 08:39 PM Druid is a great class over twenty levels. Clerics have reason to multi-class but still are extrmely powerful over twenty levels even without multi-class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Verdauga 05-22-06, 10:03 PM	Hey all, Background for me, I'm a 1st ed DM and Player, and I am now involved in a 3.5 game. I am a cleric of the 6th lvl, straight up, and looking through all the books, it seems like if you don't multi-class or especially go to a prestige class you become a rather poor character. Now I want to know a) If most people agree that multi-classing and/or prestige classes are always better then staying core. b) If so, what things would a cleric desire in a prestige class, and I have looked at every single one and don't like any. I am trying to think of some way to make me able to stay Cleric through 20 and after. Maybe make an Archcleric prestige class or somesuch. TY Much, Verdauga Hardcore Core Classer
Kresalak 05-22-06, 10:08 PM	Cleric 20 is very viable. Not as good as using some PrCs that give full spellcasting, but few to no PrC abilities are as powerful as your cleric casting. Honestly, I too have found few good cleric PrCs that I want to take. Except Bone Knight, from Five Nations. Bone Knight is awesome in a bag. Druid 20 is, in fact, the most powerful druid build. With the advent of the PHB II, fighter 20 is sorta viable. After you have your 20 cleric caster levels, taking Heirophant is good, since you don't get increased spellcasting after level 20. However, the bonus to caster level each level is still good.
Verdauga 05-22-06, 10:18 PM	I'm not to fond of Heirophant either actually. My cleric's ambition is besically to become the Archcleric of his own temple, very dedicated to his deity however, and won't be doing it for any of HIS selfish reasons (Maybe my selfish reasons, I wanna build a stronghold :D ) Hard to find anything that fits in with that, so I may try to come up with a PrC on my own (Assuming here that PrC means Prestige Class)
Fuzzy_Logic 05-22-06, 10:23 PM	It all depends on the power level your group is aiming for. most classes are viable to level 20, and many strongly reward staying with them, either because of awesome high-level perks or lots level-based class features. finally, the mroe compelx and multifaceted a class is, the fewer good PrCs tned ot be available and the mroe you're rewarded for keeping it simple. Ranger's, for instance. I almost always see single-classed rnagers. they already have so many different abilities, it's not owrth multilcassing. plus, rpetty much only prue ranger gives you full baba, all those juicy skills and continued spellcasting, and with ther gith supplements, rangers have some VEYRY ncie high-level spells. Classes that I usually lookf ro PrCs for Fighter: actually, usually I see a PrC I like and use fighter to get there Bard: Because there's NO reason not to go Sublime Chord Rogue: I don't play these single-classed. sure, they're perfectl playable and have sweet high-level abilities, but I like a little more combat ability. Classes i often play straight/recommend people play straight: Wizard: I always did in 3.0, but nowadays full casting PrCs are rare, and there are many more good feats avialable, making the bonus feats good and pre-reqs bad. Sorcerer: same, plus they have a hard time qualifying Paladin, Druid, and Ranger: because they are already interesting enough and reward single-classing Most Supplementla classes: becaus ethey're more focused than core classes, have fewer PrC options, and usually better high-level abilities.
AZNsupermarket 05-22-06, 10:28 PM	shifter druid prc in races of eberron is more rewarding than druid 20 (so says my powergaming friend)
serow_#R 05-22-06, 10:36 PM	i'd say the ONLY reasons to stay cleric 20 are: - useful domain powers dependent on cleric level eg. travel, magic, destruction - turn undead - feat dependent style you have in mind most of the time, if a prestige class advances full spellcasting, it's just as good to hop in, since it'll grants you additional class features. if it advances turn undead as well, then it's all the better.
MayhemST 05-23-06, 01:00 AM	Every one of the core classes can be played through 20 and stay viable. Some offer better higher end abilities than others though. It's really just what you want to look for in the character. Multiclassing can be a way to get abit more powerful, but it's not always recommended as sometimes it can just hurt you in the long run (Eg: Fighter/Barbarian = weaker than normal high end Refl/Will Saves). I dont know what to say other than that...but i dont have access to all the splatbooks around either...i tend to do my gaming online where only the 3 core books are allowed..
GalaGalaxia 05-23-06, 01:23 AM	Fighters = low level damage dealers. High levels = You keep the enemies off your parties casters so they can do the work. If you dont like that, go play a caster. ... and if I don't want to be a caster, then what? :plotting:
NightScreamer20 05-23-06, 01:36 AM	Honestly my Group today is kinda shunning PrCs for the first time and have come out with wonderful results. We're all ECL 10 atm I play a Human Cleric of Pipenbotle (Think a Halfling version of Dionysus), we have a Tiefling Fighter who specializes in Wielding a larger than normal Cleaver, a Gloaming Sorcerer who specializes in Illusion and deceit, and finally a Skarn (Magic of Incarnum Race) Rogue, who focuses upon his combat abilities a little more than his actual Rogue-ness. None of us have ever fallen below -9 hp in battle, we have never come across a creature we needed to defeat, nor have we ever came to a situation in which one of us couldn't obtain the answer too. Shows us that there is life without PrCs, and it is good.
DarknessEternal 05-23-06, 01:41 AM	The only class that's absolutely unreasonable to take all the way to 20 is Sorcerer. They get nothing. In fact, if there were some way to only ever take one level of Sorcerer, everyone who wanted to be one should do that. No other base class gets a goose egg for going up levels.
belthazzar1113 05-23-06, 01:55 AM	for almost every class going up as a PrC focusing on what you end up doing is the best option. Casters can find full spell casting progression classes. Most of the classes will have a few abilities that you will like and you end up sticking with one that you really like. Take barbarian. they have rage, fast move, uncanny dodge, and DR. Now you might like the idea of being a real tough tank with high hp little armor but the ability to ingore hits. well there is a PrC for that. Or you might like the going crazy and letting it all hang out in a rage, well you have a PrC for that too. Or mabey you like the idea of a feral warrior born in the wilderness fighting with savage power, there is a PrC for that too. If you want to be ok at all three thing stick with core otherwize pick something and specilize. Most PrCs are either story/world specific or a specilization in a core class or core mechanic. Or they are a gish of two opposed mechanics (armored mages, rageing wizards, ect) so if you like your character and no PrC really fits and you don't feel the need to specilize ten don't. But if you want to eek out all the power you can from a particular ability there is a PrC that does exactly that... or if it fits storyline wize then take the PrC that makes most sense. From a numbers perspective each class has its highs and lows, every number monky can point out power levels and gaps in each class. So some classes get more out of hiting a PrC for those "gap" levels, and end up a more powerful (numerically) character. it all works, but in general, yes, a PrC or multiclass combo will net more power though increased diversification and synergy or though extream specilization and stacking. either way works.
Ghostwheel 05-23-06, 02:11 AM	I'm not to fond of Heirophant either actually. My cleric's ambition is besically to become the Archcleric of his own temple, very dedicated to his deity however, and won't be doing it for any of HIS selfish reasons (Maybe my selfish reasons, I wanna build a stronghold :D ) Hard to find anything that fits in with that, so I may try to come up with a PrC on my own (Assuming here that PrC means Prestige Class) I cannot see why you would be looking beyond Cleric if you want to be the "Archcleric" of a temple. There are some positives to be gained from certain PrC's, but that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for. Depending on the nature of the campaign, and Dm's rulings, some PrC's might make some sense. For instance, if you are in an Undead-heavy campaign, the Radiant Servant of Pelor could help in both a game-play and a role-play sense. Of course, it can be "Radiant Servant of..." whatever Diety your DM allows. But from what you have stated, Cleric seems to be the best way to go.
tiercel 05-23-06, 02:27 AM	Bard: Because there's NO reason not to go Sublime ChordI hear this a lot and I disagree. Advantage, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 Skills: Search and Spot become class skills Bardsong: boost your caster level, freeze enemies in time, and cast, uh, bardic fireball 9th level spells. Yeah, OK, that's pretty big -- but note that you don't get them until character level 19, and you have mini-sorcerer spell progression. (Also the sublime chord spell list is bigger, meaning fewer UMD checks needed -- which is good since UMD isn't a class skill once you go SC.) Advantage, Bard 20 2 more Reflex save, 3 more BAB 20 more skill points. Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Info, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, and UMD remain class skills (unlike with Sublime Chord). Also not restricted to skill choices to qualify for Sublime Chord, particularly those 6 ranks in Profession (astrologer), but also 19 ranks between Knowl (arcana) [which a normal bard might be happy to let the wizard cover] and Spellcraft [ditto]. Bardsong: Inspire Courage increases from +2 to +4, Song of Freedom, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Heroics, 5 more uses of bardic music per day (particularly useful if you have a bardic music using feat from CAdv) OK, yeah, getting higher level spells is pretty big -- but you get them slower than the sorcerer and at the expense of your skills and your moderate fighting ability (especially when bolstered by bardsong buffs), and you swap your social/buffing bardsong progression for spellcasting bardsong. Sublime Chord is sort of "half bard half sorcerer." It's certainly not a bad choice, it is very viable. It is just not obviously superior to bard, to me. In particular, I'd say that if you think that getting eventual access to 9th level spells is worth giving up the upper half of bard for, why not just play a Sor/Wiz and get full-on arcane power from Day 1?
Lotus Crane 05-23-06, 02:44 AM	It's certainly not a bad choice, it is very viable. It is just not obviously superior to bard, to me. In particular, I'd say that if you think that getting eventual access to 9th level spells is worth giving up the upper half of bard for, why not just play a Sor/Wiz and get full-on arcane power from Day 1? Because a bard is more likely to survive from day 1, and in many ways, a Sublime Chord actually has more "full-on" arcane power than a sorcerer? A Sublime Chord who uses song of arcane power is effectively 4 caster levels higher than a sorcerer, and has a lot more spell options. A SC doesn't just get 9th level spells (and only 1 level behind a sorcerer), but he also gets to choose from two spell lists. Don't underestimate the power of getting greater dispel magic as a 5th level spell (instead of 6th), or otto's irresistable dance as a 6th level spell (instead of 8th). And what sorcerer wouldn't love to be able to learn glibness, song of discord, improvisation, and cure wounds? A particularly potent combination is a bard/SC with Song of the Heart and Practiced Spellcaster. By inspiring greatness in yourself and gaining 3 more HD, you also gain 3 more caster levels. With a relatively easy Perform check with song of arcane power, you're a 12th level character with 19th caster level (or 20th if you throw in an orange ioun stone). That's more spellcasting potency than an Archmage or Red Wizard, at that level. More importantly, you've already received most of the big benefits from being a bard. You already have your maxed out d6 instead of d4 HD at first level, you already have 4 x 6 +Int skill points instead of 4 x 2 + Int skill points at first level, the biggest benefit of having that extra good save was the +2 at 1st level anyway, and you already have the ability to wear a mithral chain shirt (or even a mithral breastplate if you like). The ability to go from that to eventually getting 9th level spells (again, chosen from two spell lists) seems almost brokenly good, even at the cost of losing 20 skill points, 2-3 points each of BAB and Ref save, and never gaining access to song of freedom, inspire heroics, and mass suggesstion. After all, most of the spells you gain can more than make up for that (a SC is one of the few non-suicidal candidates for Tenser's transformation). In a lot of ways, a bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is probably what the 3.5 sorcerer should have been, with some flavor re-write. While you're right in that a SC is not 100% automatically a better bard (because indeed, he falls behind in some of his bard-ier abilities), I would wager that 75% of the time, he's an overall stronger character. But yes, a pure bard is perfectly viable, at least compared to a pure sorcerer or pure fighter.
NineInchNall 05-23-06, 02:58 AM	... and if I don't want to be a caster, then what? :plotting: Then either 1) make some house rules to change that dynamic, or 2) accept that the caster/warrior dynamic is inherent to the D&D shtick and go play something else. You knew the score when you started. The caster/warrior relationship is a major part of what makes the game D&D.
Bob Loblaw 05-23-06, 11:19 AM	I have to disagree that the fighter's job is to support the casters. I have seen and played fighters at nearly every level of play and I have to say that the casters do not outshine the fighters in our games. There are a couple of us who really know how to play spellcasters and can show up the other players. We do the same thing when we play fighters though also. It all depends on the group, the players, and the game. Casters are not the absolute power in the game. While it may be different in your games, it most certainly is not the accepted standard in all games. As for what classes are best for all levels of play, that question can't really be answered without knowing what type of campaign world you will be running. Every class has the potential to be viable or worthless. It just depends on what they have to deal with.
simon_tage 05-23-06, 11:29 AM	I have to disagree that the fighter's job is to support the casters. I have seen and played fighters at nearly every level of play and I have to say that the casters do not outshine the fighters in our games. There are a couple of us who really know how to play spellcasters and can show up the other players. We do the same thing when we play fighters though also. It all depends on the group, the players, and the game. Casters are not the absolute power in the game. While it may be different in your games, it most certainly is not the accepted standard in all games. As for what classes are best for all levels of play, that question can't really be answered without knowing what type of campaign world you will be running. Every class has the potential to be viable or worthless. It just depends on what they have to deal with. I agree, it is all in how it's played. Every core class is very viable all the way to 20th. Few of my players take PRCs, even fewer multiclass.
NineInchNall 05-23-06, 12:02 PM	I agree, it is all in how it's played. Every core class is very viable all the way to 20th. Few of my players take PRCs, even fewer multiclass. Strike that; reverse it. "Few of my players multiclass; even fewer take PrCs."
eggplantm 05-23-06, 12:21 PM	All classes are viable to 20th level. There are some trades for both multiclassing and prestigeclassing. Multiclassing gives you more options and that is fun and nice but you generally do not get the high end abilities of your class as often as you'd like. Prestige classing can be a very mixed bag. If the prestige class is well made you will get more powerful in one area at the expense of others and again you get the additional options for multiclassing. In most cases, you will not end up that much more powerful, just powerful in different ways. The bard who prc's into sublime chord becomes a very powerful spellcaster but at the expense of being a better bard and support character. Everything is a trade off.
supadupaman 05-26-06, 08:09 PM	I think that most core classes are perfectly playable until lvl 20. And if they aren't, then they should be. I've been using this idea when making all of my new or modified classes for my homebrew CS. Unfortunately it doesn't have much stuff here and none of my classes exist on these boards yet, since i do most of my stuff now over at the CBG forums site. I plan to port some of my classes over here in a bit, and to update the version of my CS i have here, but i just haven't done it yet. If you want to see them, they're all over at the CBG boards (link in my sig). Just check the Age of Kings CS.
Toxic_Shaman 05-26-06, 08:39 PM	Druid is a great class over twenty levels. Clerics have reason to multi-class but still are extrmely powerful over twenty levels even without multi-class.