Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurstalk 05-24-05, 03:07 PM	I have a player with a dilemma. His druid, in order to escape some foes, wild shaped into an eagle (and got hurt). Now, he's in a predicament where his eagles doesn't really have a place to land (i.e., water), and if she resorts back to her original form, she'll fall unconscious. He wants to wild shape from an eagle into a crocodile. His rationale: Wild Shape is like Polymorph which is like Alter Self, which allows someone to keep their supernatural abilities and nothing suggests that you can't shape shift from one form in alter self to another. It's a good argument, but I don't think that the wild shape ability is that sophisticated. My position: Wild Shape allows you to shape shift and revert back. Polymorph allows you to shape shift and revert back. Alter self allows you to shape shift and revert back. Nothing suggests that you may shape shift from one form into another. This is the quagmire. If you have cast upon yourself alter self to assume the form of a dwarf. Then, while in the form of a dwarf, you decide to assume the form of an elf, do you need to cancel the "dwarf spell" before casting the "elf spell" or can you go straight from a dwarf to an elf? How do you read it. BTW - I want to stay away from a house rule on this. My player is a bit of a stickler for "the rules" and I want to keep to the same line on this matter.
Sinon 05-24-05, 03:36 PM	No, you cannot. I don't think that it explicitly says anywhere that you can't, but it is assumed. The closest thing I can think of as a rule is the fact that certain prestige classes, e.g. warshaper, have a class ability that allows then to do what your character is asking to do. It wouldn't be a class ability if they already had the ability.
Gingerbread Guy 05-24-05, 03:44 PM	The answer you're looking for is on page 172 of the PHB, under the section about "Combining Magical Effects". Here's the equivalent passage from the SRD: Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. As far as being physically able to use wildshape while in animal form, its a supernatural action, and thus it has no verbal or somatic components (and certainly no material components or foci), so you can use it so long as you're able to make standard actions, and you're not in an anti-magic field. So, yes, you can repeatedly wildshape yourself without returning to your human form, so long as you keep expending daily uses of your wildshape ability. The previous effects are not dispelled or canceled, but they're effectively useless. ~Ginger
Taliesin52 05-24-05, 03:44 PM	As long as he has an action to do it in, I don't see why not. You still have the ability to wildshape 1 (or more times) more time that day. Reading the description I don't see anything that says you must shape from human (or your base form) into something, just that you change your current shape. Elsewhere on this board you can find a debate about "stacking" wildshapes to gain powers. I can't say I agree with that particular line of thought, but I do agree with them that there's nothing preventing you from wildshaping from one form directly to another as long as you use another use of your ability that day. As for the warshaper, I don't know what ability Sinon's referring to.
Borris 05-24-05, 03:46 PM	So, as long as you have wild shape uses, polymorph spells, or whatever left, you can spend one use of your ability to take a new form without first reverting to your normal one.
Saurstalk 05-24-05, 03:51 PM	Reading the description I don't see anything that says you must shape from human (or your base form) into something, just that you change your current shape. [...] As for the warshaper, I don't know what ability Sinon's referring to. 1. The contradiction is that the wild shape ability reads that it allows a druid to assume a form of an animal and revert back. The presumption is that the druid is in her original state before changing to an animal form. Afterwards, she returns to her original form. Still, the stacking is an interesting analogy. That would suggest that the druid simply trumps her original wild shape with a new wild shape. 2. As for the Warshaper, the only reference I've found is on another website. It looks like its drawn from Eberron, but I can't find it in the campaign setting tome. Perhaps it's in another.
Lawrence 05-24-05, 03:52 PM	actually, in the case of polymorph and wildshape... Wildshape is simply a supernatural polymorph with special features. One use constitutes changing into a form and going back (it's worded this way so a player cannot claim they are stuck in a form, and so they Won't be stuck in a form). That said, the spell simply ends when you revert to human/whatever form. THe point, however, is that when you cast a spell multiple times, then either negate themselves, stack if they're different, overlap, or 'refresh' (in the case of temp HP spells and the like). Polymorph falls under the category of overlap I believe. You can use another wildshape to go from eagle/hawk to crocodile, and for all purposes and intents, the crocodile is the top spell. Now, if that were to be dispelled, you would technically go back to the eagle. (but it's supernatural, so that can't be done now). Going back to humanoid form cancels out all wildshapes active, since that's what ends them in the first place. (and since a 2nd wildshape will always have a longer duration than the first one, having it wear off and you going back to an earlier form doesn't come into play). I think that made sense. ^-^;
Gingerbread Guy 05-24-05, 03:54 PM	Just read my post up there. The question has been answered several times. ~Ginger
Lawrence 05-24-05, 03:57 PM	I was typing when everyone else was also answering at the same time, lol.
Gingerbread Guy 05-24-05, 04:38 PM	Heh, yeah, I hate it when that happens. ^_^ ~Ginger
Death Kitty 05-24-05, 05:39 PM	The 5th level Warshaper ability, Multimorph (I think that's what it's called...?), allows non-inherent-shapeshifters (those without the [shapechanger] subtype) to, when under the effects of a spell or ability that allows shapeshifting, to change forms (within the specs of the ability or spell) multiple times within the duration of said spell or ability. Wihout regards to the RAW (honestly, I don't know them and don't have my books with me right now), I don't see how changing from one shape to another using multiple uses of wildshape would make this ability underpowered. Multimorph just makes a druid able (let's say level 15 Druid/5 Warshaper for an example) to use one use of wildshape and, for the 15 hour duration, shift into multiple forms as allowed by the ability. It kinda makes having 5+ uses/day unecessary, but... :rolleyes: I don't think there'd be any reason why he shouldn't be able to shift in such a way (and even if he didn't, what could prevent him from flying high enough up to the point that he could shift out of his eagle form --and back into humanoid form-- and then into an aquatic animal?). Ultimately, however, it's your call. To quote (someone...I can't remember who said it first, but credit goes to them): "There are no rules as written, only rules as determined by the DM."...or something to that extent. :confused: