Can a Large druid only turn into Small and Medium at lvl 5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a Large druid only turn into Small and Medium at lvl 5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
catzo
08-04-07, 03:18 PM I was wondering if the druid Wild shape ability is somehow linked to the Druids size. so a Large druid can only turn into Medium or Large animals at lvl 5 and not small.
This makes sense to me also because large races often have racial HD and so they can even at lvl 5 turn into creature with more HD than a normal human or elf level 5 druid can.

Will it be unbalancing to let a player do this?
JadeSpider9643
08-04-07, 03:58 PM sadly while it would make good sense that a large druid can turn into medium or large sizes at lvl 5, it would certainly be unbalanced. while a large druid's natural size is factored and balanced in possibly an LA or racial penaltys, I don't think it is factored into the balance of the wildshape ability. Oddly enough as this seems to screw over the large druid, it would also be a huge benefit to the tiny or smaller druid.
Treantmonklvl20
08-04-07, 04:22 PM Any player suggesting this to me would be sending Large sized alarm bells through my head.

Thankfully, the answer is no according to RAW. Whew!
Jaxgaret
08-04-07, 05:21 PM Since the lowest LA one can have with a Large-sized PC is +2, this means that a Large Druid using this variant houserule could be getting Large Wildshape a level earlier than normal.

A better houserule might be to set the Wildshape progression for starting ECL>0 PCs to minimum ECL levels rather than as a straight class level dependent features; i.e. an ECL8 straight Druid can do Large Wildshape, and an ECL12 straight Druid can do Plant Wildshapes, regardless of the number of HD they have.

However, Druids as is are generally considered powerful enough, so this is not really necessary.
Arcane Guyver
08-04-07, 05:30 PM Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better.
Jaxgaret
08-04-07, 05:40 PM Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better.

Ooh, I missed that one. I'll have to check it out.
Fireclave
08-04-07, 05:50 PM I was wondering if the druid Wild shape ability is somehow linked to the Druids size. so a Large druid can only turn into Medium or Large animals at lvl 5 and not small.
Nope. Wildshape is not linked to the creature's size.

This makes sense to me also because large races often have racial HD and so they can even at lvl 5 turn into creature with more HD than a normal human or elf level 5 druid can.
Not correct. In fact, the opposite is true. Creatures with racial HD, reguardless of size, will actually be able to assume forms with fewer HD than races with no HD. This is because the number of HD you can assume with wildshape is capped by your druid levels and not your ECL.

Compare, for example, two ECL 7 Druids: A human druid will have 7 levels of druid. A gnoll druid of the same level will have only 5 levels of druid and 2 racial HD. The human druid will be able to assume forms of up to 7 HD, while the gnoll will only be able to assume forms up to 5 HD.

Will it be unbalancing to let a player do this?
Yes it would. Very much so. Druids having access to large-sized forms that much earlier, and by logical extension, huge and gargantuan-sized forms can be very game breaking.
catzo
08-05-07, 01:16 AM Ok, thanks for the awnsers :)

Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better.
I gotta read up on that one as well.

[...] Creatures with racial HD, reguardless of size, will actually be able to assume forms with fewer HD than races with no HD. This is because the number of HD you can assume with wildshape is capped by your druid levels and not your ECL.

This just seems broken to me. Casters already gets penalised pretty steeply as is it with racial HD. I think I would allow it to be effective HD and not Caster-level that determines max HD of creature. But not allow Large unless your high enough level.
Fireclave
08-05-07, 02:18 AM This just seems broken to me. Casters already gets penalised pretty steeply as is it with racial HD. I think I would allow it to be effective HD and not Caster-level that determines max HD of creature. But not allow Large unless your high enough level.

Quick correction. Wildshape is based on your druid level, not your caster level. This is an important distinction because prestige class that advance your spell casting, or abilities that increase your druid caster level, will not increase your wildshape HD cap.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catzo 08-04-07, 03:18 PM	I was wondering if the druid Wild shape ability is somehow linked to the Druids size. so a Large druid can only turn into Medium or Large animals at lvl 5 and not small. This makes sense to me also because large races often have racial HD and so they can even at lvl 5 turn into creature with more HD than a normal human or elf level 5 druid can. Will it be unbalancing to let a player do this?
JadeSpider9643 08-04-07, 03:58 PM	sadly while it would make good sense that a large druid can turn into medium or large sizes at lvl 5, it would certainly be unbalanced. while a large druid's natural size is factored and balanced in possibly an LA or racial penaltys, I don't think it is factored into the balance of the wildshape ability. Oddly enough as this seems to screw over the large druid, it would also be a huge benefit to the tiny or smaller druid.
Treantmonklvl20 08-04-07, 04:22 PM	Any player suggesting this to me would be sending Large sized alarm bells through my head. Thankfully, the answer is no according to RAW. Whew!
Jaxgaret 08-04-07, 05:21 PM	Since the lowest LA one can have with a Large-sized PC is +2, this means that a Large Druid using this variant houserule could be getting Large Wildshape a level earlier than normal. A better houserule might be to set the Wildshape progression for starting ECL>0 PCs to minimum ECL levels rather than as a straight class level dependent features; i.e. an ECL8 straight Druid can do Large Wildshape, and an ECL12 straight Druid can do Plant Wildshapes, regardless of the number of HD they have. However, Druids as is are generally considered powerful enough, so this is not really necessary.
Arcane Guyver 08-04-07, 05:30 PM	Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better.
Jaxgaret 08-04-07, 05:40 PM	Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better. Ooh, I missed that one. I'll have to check it out.
Fireclave 08-04-07, 05:50 PM	I was wondering if the druid Wild shape ability is somehow linked to the Druids size. so a Large druid can only turn into Medium or Large animals at lvl 5 and not small. Nope. Wildshape is not linked to the creature's size. This makes sense to me also because large races often have racial HD and so they can even at lvl 5 turn into creature with more HD than a normal human or elf level 5 druid can. Not correct. In fact, the opposite is true. Creatures with racial HD, reguardless of size, will actually be able to assume forms with fewer HD than races with no HD. This is because the number of HD you can assume with wildshape is capped by your druid levels and not your ECL. Compare, for example, two ECL 7 Druids: A human druid will have 7 levels of druid. A gnoll druid of the same level will have only 5 levels of druid and 2 racial HD. The human druid will be able to assume forms of up to 7 HD, while the gnoll will only be able to assume forms up to 5 HD. Will it be unbalancing to let a player do this? Yes it would. Very much so. Druids having access to large-sized forms that much earlier, and by logical extension, huge and gargantuan-sized forms can be very game breaking.
catzo 08-05-07, 01:16 AM	Ok, thanks for the awnsers :) Use the PHB2 variant for Large druids. It just works better. I gotta read up on that one as well. [...] Creatures with racial HD, reguardless of size, will actually be able to assume forms with fewer HD than races with no HD. This is because the number of HD you can assume with wildshape is capped by your druid levels and not your ECL. This just seems broken to me. Casters already gets penalised pretty steeply as is it with racial HD. I think I would allow it to be effective HD and not Caster-level that determines max HD of creature. But not allow Large unless your high enough level.
Fireclave 08-05-07, 02:18 AM	This just seems broken to me. Casters already gets penalised pretty steeply as is it with racial HD. I think I would allow it to be effective HD and not Caster-level that determines max HD of creature. But not allow Large unless your high enough level. Quick correction. Wildshape is based on your druid level, not your caster level. This is an important distinction because prestige class that advance your spell casting, or abilities that increase your druid caster level, will not increase your wildshape HD cap.