Post/Author/DateTime	Post
koiulpoi 08-13-07, 08:55 PM	Well, can he? I believe so, as the action just says "melee attack" and not "standard action". If he's got enough smite attempts and attacks per round, why not? And, if not for Paladin, how about Soulborn?
OneWinged4ngel 08-13-07, 08:56 PM	Well, can he? Yes.
koiulpoi 08-13-07, 08:58 PM	Yes. :ayyyy!: Thanks!
zephyrTR 08-13-07, 08:59 PM	really? I gotta check this. Coulda sworn that smite worked like back stab.
Treantmonklvl20 08-13-07, 09:19 PM	really? I gotta check this. Coulda sworn that smite worked like back stab. Back stab? That was a thief ability in 1E and 2E. As for Sneak Attack - you can use that with a full attack as well (and you should whenever possible).
Crimson_Concerto 08-13-07, 09:24 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure a Smite is a standard action, as it's a supernatural ability that doesn't specify an action. The text seems to insinuate that as well, though it wouldn't have to for that to be the RAW answer... EDIT: Oh, sorry, to more directly answer the topic title: No.
koiulpoi 08-13-07, 09:38 PM	Smite Evil (Su) Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level. The rules lawyers can bicker over the meaning of that phrase. I'm going with "yes".
Mouseferatu 08-13-07, 09:40 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure a Smite is a standard action, as it's a supernatural ability that doesn't specify an action. Except that it does. The game is very consistent about what "a normal attack" means. It means an attack--not a standard action. Thus, if the paladin has multiple smites available, and has iterative attacks, he may make more than one smite per round.
OneWinged4ngel 08-13-07, 09:47 PM	The rules lawyers can bicker over the meaning of that phrase. I'm going with "yes". No, they can't, because of the way one normal melee attack is defined. It's an attack action. A full attack can make multiple attack actions. If smiting is part of an attack action, you can make multiple smites. There's no ifs ands or buts. Any "rules lawyers" that are claiming otherwise are WRONG. The rules are extremely consistent about this, and it means the same thing for *every other ability* that works like this. Except that it does. The game is very consistent about what "a normal attack" means. It means an attack--not a standard action. Thus, if the paladin has multiple smites available, and has iterative attacks, he may make more than one smite per round. Mouseferatu is correct. And of course, he's a WotC employee, if that has any more weight for you, since you seem reluctant to listen to a "normal" player who's very experienced with the rules. Actually, I'm pretty sure a Smite is a standard action, as it's a supernatural ability that doesn't specify an action. The text seems to insinuate that as well, though it wouldn't have to for that to be the RAW answer... EDIT: Oh, sorry, to more directly answer the topic title: No. Well you're wrong. Sorry. It actually does specify an ATTACK action when it says that you smite with a normal melee attack. :ayyyy!: Thanks! Glad to help.
Crimson_Concerto 08-13-07, 09:48 PM	Yes, the "bickering rule lawyer" is always the bad guy. :rolleyes: Listen, hun, I'm not saying I agree with the rules, and I don't care if you house rule it. Hell, I'll probably house rule it myself to be used in a full attack, because I think it's more useful that way. I'm just answering the topic title, and by RAW, it would appear that you cannot, because Smite Evil is a standard action that happens to include a normal melee attack within it, the same way ToB maneuvers include normal melee attacks within them but are never attack actions, the same way a lot of spells include attacks within them even though they might be standard actions to cast.
OneWinged4ngel 08-13-07, 10:02 PM	because Smite Evil is a standard action No, it's not.
koiulpoi 08-13-07, 10:18 PM	Mouseferatu is correct. And of course, he's a WotC employee, if that has any more weight for you, since you seem reluctant to listen to a "normal" player who's very experienced with the rules. If I cared that much I would've just sent the question to custserv instead of posting here. But nevermind that, not only do I have no idea how experienced people are on the boards, but that I got two conflicting answers. How silly of me to be at all confused. Yes, I checked a few other examples, and there is a clear difference between "melee attack" and "standard action". I found out this way that you can replace trip/disarm/grapple/etc attempts for any attack in a full-round attack, as long as they use the "attack action". So, Smite Evil falls into this. Personally, I find the rules a bit unclear on this point, but the FAQ has an entry or two about it. So, thank you for your help. Crimson_Concerto, it's been a while since I looked in the Tome of Battle, but I believe most maneuvers are specifically called out as Standard Actions, not melee attacks. (PS: The "Rules Lawyer" line wasn't an "attack" at anyone; it was actually somewhat facetious.)
Crimson_Concerto 08-13-07, 10:27 PM	No, it's not.Okay, I understand why you're interpreting it the way you are, but let me see if I can explain my stance a little better. You see, the way I'm reading it, nowhere does it say "attack action" or anything of the sort. What it does say is the the Smite include a "normal melee attack," which is not enough to qualify the ability as an "attack action," otherwise, half of the ToB maneuvers would be attack actions (and I don't remember any of them being). Without specifying any action and only stating that it includes an attack as part of the Smite, the only thing to fall back on is the basic rule for Supernatural abilities, which says they're all Standard actions unless otherwise noted. Crimson_Concerto, it's been a while since I looked in the Tome of Battle, but I believe most maneuvers are specifically called out as Standard Actions, not melee attacks.Yes, I know. That's what I said. :) (PS: The "Rules Lawyer" line wasn't an "attack" at anyone; it was actually somewhat facetious.)Ah, my apologies for the misinterpretations. :)
zephyrTR 08-13-07, 11:04 PM	well... the book claims Smite to be a supernatural ability. Table 8-2 of the PHB states using supernatural abilities are standard actions. Page 44 states a pally smites "with one normal melee attack" which further suggests a limitation to one smite per round. I might rule if the pally really wanted to he could use up multiple smite attempts with a full round attack as this isn't really making the pally all that more powerful, and most players would suggest the pally forfeit a bit of speed for accuracy on his smites so they're not wasted anyway. What I thought was originally being asked was if one smite/day could affect a full round attack, which is a definite no.
Rebel581 08-13-07, 11:08 PM	Okay, I understand why you're interpreting it the way you are, but let me see if I can explain my stance a little better. You see, the way I'm reading it, nowhere does it say "attack action" or anything of the sort. What it does say is the the Smite include a "normal melee attack," which is not enough to qualify the ability as an "attack action," otherwise, half of the ToB maneuvers would be attack actions (and I don't remember any of them being). Without specifying any action any only stating that it includes an attack as part of the Smite, the only thing to fall back on is the basic rule for Supernatural abilities, which says they're all Standard actions unless otherwise noted. Yes, I know. That's what I said. :) Ah, my apologies for the misinterpretations. :) ToB specifically states all strike maneuvers as 1 standard action. Thus they are not attack actions, they are standard actions. You have no case. The guy who said it was a supernatural ability and that supernatural abilities has a case though. That proves that it's a standard action. I'd probably rule that it would be an attack action. The paladin is gimped enough as it is. Don't need to nerf it more.
OneWinged4ngel 08-13-07, 11:12 PM	well... the book claims Smite to be a supernatural ability. Table 8-2 of the PHB states using supernatural abilities are standard actions. Actually, it says they are standard actions unless noted otherwise. That basically means that if WotC totally whiffed and said "something happens" with no reference to any sort of action, such as "with one normal attack," then it's a standard.
runestar 08-13-07, 11:13 PM	Smite was probably listed as a SU ability as a reminder of its limitations and benefits (penetrates sr, does not work in an AMF etc). I believe it was the intent that it be activated as part of the attack it was "attached to". Thus, if you can make 4 attacks/round, you can smite 4 times (assuming you have enough uses). At least, that is my take on it.
Crimson_Concerto 08-13-07, 11:13 PM	ToB specifically states all strike maneuvers as 1 standard action. Thus they are not attack actions, they are standard actions.Yes, I know. That's what I said. :) The guy who said it was a supernatural ability and that supernatural abilities has a case though. That proves that it's a standard action.Yes, hun, that was me in post #6. :D I'd probably rule that it would be an attack action. The paladin is gimped enough as it is. Don't need to nerf it more.I agree. I like that house rule much better than the RAW.
Rebel581 08-13-07, 11:20 PM	Yes, I know. That's what I said. :) Yes, hun, that was me in post #6. :D I agree. I like that house rule much better than the RAW. Ah, sorry. Misread your last post. I didn't see that you pointed out the supernatural ability thing.
Mojo_Rat 08-14-07, 12:09 AM	Generaly speaking I always interpeted Smite evil as being something you can do on any one of your attacks. Its a nice ability but to be honest It would be rather useless at higher levels if it was a standard action. Since by the time you get multiple attacks expecially 3 or for hitting multiple times would do more damage than smiting.
Mouseferatu 08-14-07, 12:24 AM	Mouseferatu is correct. And of course, he's a WotC employee Well, a freelancer, not quite an employee. But I appreciate the vote of confidence. ;) Page 44 states a pally smites "with one normal melee attack" which further suggests a limitation to one smite per round. I don't think it suggests anything of the sort. It suggests that one smite = one attack, which is true. But it doesn't imply anything about the number of times the smite power can be activated in a given time frame. And as others have pointed out, the "SU ability = standard action" rule is modified by an "unless stated otherwise" caveat.
kalstrand 08-14-07, 11:07 PM	I think some of you are misusing the term Attack Action. The Attack Action is a specific standard action with which you can make a single melee attack. You can't take an Attack Action and a Full Attack Action. A full attack lets you make multiple attacks not multiple attack actions.
koiulpoi 08-15-07, 01:54 AM	I think some of you are misusing the term Attack Action. The Attack Action is a specific standard action with which you can make a single melee attack. You can't take an Attack Action and a Full Attack Action. A full attack lets you make multiple attacks not multiple attack actions. Completely wrong. A full attack lets you take several actions defined as "attacks". You can make a full attack of grapples, trips, disarms, and sunders, and never actually "attack" someone.
Tempest Stormwind 08-15-07, 01:59 AM	To me it's always been clear: Yes, you can. "Smite evil on one normal melee attack" = if you spend the smite (an attack action), you get the benefit once. You can spend it more than once and get a full attack of smites. I've run it this way in the past without any problems. Oh, and to add *more* weight to this behind OW4, Mouseferartu, and my own, the entirety of the CO board regulars have had a saying for a while -- in core, "a paladin is the strongest melee class, for one round per day." That round refers to the round you spend full-attacking and blowing all your smites for the day. (The paladin -- the core-only nova character.) It *has* shown up on a few record threads, but those are all extremely theoretical builds and all of them, to my knowledge, have long since been outdone. Also, koiulpoi's correct. You can make multiple attack actions on a full attack, and in fact it's assumed you do for balancing tricks like grapples (you use one attack to establish the grapple and the next to do a grapple action, typically pinning the opponent). Things like Disarm, Grapple, and so on have similar wording to the paladin's smite, in fact -- "as a normal attack" or "with a normal attack", if I recall correctly.
kalstrand 08-15-07, 05:44 PM	Completely wrong. A full attack lets you take several actions defined as "attacks". You can make a full attack of grapples, trips, disarms, and sunders, and never actually "attack" someone. Look at page 139 of your PHB. You will notice the first action described under Standard actions is the Attack Action. Using the Attack Action allows you to make 1 attack, which can be switched for a trip, disarm, grapple, etc. A full attack lets you make multiple attacks but not multiple Attack Actions as an Attack Action is a specifically defined standard action.
Tempest Stormwind 08-15-07, 05:57 PM	Ahem. Many of these maneuvers take the place of an attack (rather than being standard actions or move actions). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these maneuvers in place of each of your attacks, but you use successively lower attack bonuses to resolve any required opposed grapple checks. Each of those uses the same terminology as disarm, sunder, etc. Thus, if I'm next to your evil archer and have three attacks, I can trip him, sunder his quiver, and then stab his prone arse all in the same round. If I were a grappler, I could grab him, knee him in the gut, and pin him. If I were a paladin... I could smite him, smite him again, and smite him a third time for good measure. However, since the melee attack has to be a "normal" melee attack, I can't smite him on a trip (since a trip isn't a normal melee attack). This is the same reasoning as to why you can't use a Tome of Battle strike on nonstandard attacks, actually, just with a different activation action.
Treantmonklvl20 08-15-07, 06:00 PM	Look at page 139 of your PHB. You will notice the first action described under Standard actions is the Attack Action. Using the Attack Action allows you to make 1 attack, which can be switched for a trip, disarm, grapple, etc. A full attack lets you make multiple attacks but not multiple Attack Actions as an Attack Action is a specifically defined standard action. I'm not sure where you are getting that "One melee attack" = "One attack action". If the smite were intended to take one attack action, they might have suggested it took "one attack action", instead they suggested it took "one melee attack" A full attack action contains several melee attacks.
koiulpoi 08-15-07, 06:04 PM	Look at page 139 of your PHB. You will notice the first action described under Standard actions is the Attack Action. Using the Attack Action allows you to make 1 attack, which can be switched for a trip, disarm, grapple, etc. A full attack lets you make multiple attacks but not multiple Attack Actions as an Attack Action is a specifically defined standard action. I don't see what you're saying. Are you saying you cannot replace the attacks in a full attack with Grapples, Trips, Disarms, and Sunders? If I wanted to, I could full attack with all four of those and never "Attack". Yes, the rules are unclear about this. However, this is clearly the way it works. Look right above your post, to TSw's, and read the last paragraph. If you don't believe me, check the 3.5 FAQ, page 66. I'll even copy/paste it here for you so you don't have to: Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack? Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says). If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering. Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat). You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity). EDIT: Wow, I got double-ninja'd.