Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mondreyes 09-24-04, 10:13 PM	Would you allow a Sorcerer the ability to know more spells using Wish or Limted Wish and if so, how many would each spell grant?
Steelborn86 09-24-04, 10:59 PM	Most dm's probably wouldn't allow it. After all, one of wish's abilities is to basically duplicate a spell. So you have to wonder why a player would cast it to emulate a spell if they could just cast it to learn the spell. However, being a lenient I would allow one wish to let a sorcerer learn an addition spell of 0 or 1st level. 2 consecutive castings for a 2nd or 3rd level spell, 3 consecutive castings for a 4th or 5th level spell, 4 consecutive castings for a 6th or 7th circle, 5 consecutive castings for an 8th circle. Or something to that effect. It also might have been better to put this in the magic and spells forum.
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 12:05 AM	Steelborn86-- My question is really how many you would let them know. To select from.
markhaus 09-25-04, 09:57 AM	Steelbourne has a good idea. Remember wish can give you attribute points. I think to a maximum of 5. allowing repeated wishes to know another spells per level wouldnt be too terrible (1 wish for 0th, 1 wish for 1st, 2 wishes for 2nd, 2 for third as Steelbourne suggested up to 8th.) For a total of 25 wishes to know one more spell per level (or 5 wishes for a 8th level spell) Or did you mean just 5 wishes distributed amongst them? cause 30 wishes can bring up all attributes by 5.
Masker 09-25-04, 10:14 AM	I think that in the forgotten realms campaing setting says that the simbul had use a wish to gain one extra spell known of 9 level. Maybe that could serve as a guideline
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 10:47 AM	markhaus-- No, it takes 15 Wishes to increase a single attribute 5 places. Not 30 wishes for 5 places on all attributes. 1 Wish = +1 It takes two wishes to get to +2 (That is three wishes so far.) It takes three wishes to get to +3 (That is six wishes so far) It takes four wishes to get to +4 (That is 10 wishes so far) Etc...
sparkster4242 09-25-04, 11:11 AM	mondreyes: yes, it works that way - if you stop casting every time you gain a point, and start again later on. the easier way to do it would be to Wish 5 times in rapid succession, for a total of +5 to a single ability score. oh yes, dont forget - the score doesnt actually increase, you just gain an inherent bonus to the score.
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 11:16 AM	sparkster4242-- Yeah, I know. Most players must not be paying the cost for a Wish.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 09-25-04, 12:32 PM	And remember, wishing to increase attributes pretty much eliminates spells like Bull's Strength, and items like Cloaks of Charisma. Also, someone mentioned the Simbul. I wouldn't exactly take info from the Simbul's stats to heart. It says in the PHB that spells known can't be increased.
ElvenEnigma 09-25-04, 01:58 PM	And remember, wishing to increase attributes pretty much eliminates spells like Bull's Strength, and items like Cloaks of Charisma. I have to disagree. Remember that consecutive wishes grant you an inherent bonus to your ability scores while stat boosting items/spells grant you an enhancement bonus. Since these are two different types of bonuses they STACK:D Peace
EvilVegan 09-25-04, 02:27 PM	Inherent and Enhancement bonuses totally stack so bull's strength and cloaks of Cha are still good with wished on bonuses. Thats how you get a score of 34 starting with an 18. 5 inherent, 6 item, 5 level. It takes 5 wishes in a row to get +5 to a stat, this is the maximum. So it would take only 30 wishes to get +5 Inherent to all your stats, not 90. I'd make it 1 wish per spell level and a limited wish for a 0th level spell, cast in rapid succession like the ability boost. So 9 wishes in a row for a 9th level spell. But I think wish sucks and I usually don't allow it IMC.
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 03:29 PM	EvilVegan-- 30 wishes in a row... you are right. You know a lot of Wizard's packing 30 wishes?
Garith Dragonborn 09-25-04, 04:30 PM	mine does
Kvantum 09-25-04, 04:36 PM	IIRC, the FRCS also says that the Simbul uses an occasional wish to swap out one of her spells known for another one. You might use this as an example, too.
markhaus 09-25-04, 04:43 PM	A sorceror can cast 5 spells per day. 6 days=6 stats. 30 wishes for 30 stat points
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 05:04 PM	30 wishes in 6 days and you just lost a minimum of 150,000XP. This is assuming there are no other costs to be paid and you play with a DM that will tolerate this type of abuse. This is why the spell Wish is not handed out reguaurly. If you have +5 to all your stats, then assume that all your opponents have the same ability.
Sensei Gith 09-25-04, 09:31 PM	30 wishes in 6 days and you just lost a minimum of 150,000XP. This is assuming there are no other costs to be paid and you play with a DM that will tolerate this type of abuse. This is why the spell Wish is not handed out reguaurly. If you have +5 to all your stats, then assume that all your opponents have the same ability. If the player wants to spend the xp, why not let him? As you said, that is 150,000 xp. He's not getting it for free. Giving that bonus to opponents for free is blatant DM cheating. The wizard paid for it in class levels and xp. Since the fighter spent his gold on a +5 keen speed falchion, why not give all opponents equivalent +10 weapons? Since the cleric dedicated 20 levels to divine casting, why not give all opponents maximized divine casting? And the spell is handed out regularly. The player can choose up to eight free ninth-level spells from the PHB to put in their spellbook. Further restrictions are house rules. Finally, what wizard would pay 25,000 xp for a higher strength score?
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 09-25-04, 09:44 PM	I have to disagree. Remember that consecutive wishes grant you an inherent bonus to your ability scores while stat boosting items/spells grant you an enhancement bonus. Since these are two different types of bonuses they STACK:D Peace Thats right, it's the tomes that don't stack with wishes, and the say cloak of charisma doesn't stack with the Eagle's Splendor spell.
BlaineTog 09-25-04, 09:59 PM	If you use the XPH and the Psionic-Magic Transparency, then limited wish can be used to emulate Psychic Reformation (a power that I personally feel is overpowered): Psychic Reformation Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 4 Display: Auditory, mental, and visual Manifesting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7, XP; see text When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level. The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly. But can you use a Wish spell to add spells known? No, don't be silly. Thats totally out of line of the examples given.
the Horc 09-25-04, 11:31 PM	I think some good houserules would be the following: For Limited Wish: In addition to Limited Wish's normal powers, a prepared caster can, as a 15 minute ritual, change all spells selected for a single spell level (even more houseruling would allow for some maximum, but I can't think of anything right now). He can affect it upon himself, or a free-willed and willing individual (cannot be under the effects of charm or dominate, or any similar compulsion, or mind affecting power). This individual can accept the XP costs if used for his benefit. So if Wiz Zumwalt wants to change his selections for his 7th level spells, he can, as a 15 minute ritual, use a limited wish to change his spells for seventh level. He cannot, in addition, change his third level spells, unless he casts an extra Limited Wish. A :cookie: for whoever gets the above reference. A spontaneous caster (otherwise known as a spellcaster that does not cast prepared spells, and such a caster will be known as such for all my posts in this thread assuming I ever post here again), can also use the 15-minute ritual to change a spell that he can cast into another spell. This costs 25*(minimum caster level for that spell that you are getting). You are still limited by the spells known table, though you can swap out a higher level spell know for a lower level spell known, or a lower level spell know for a higher level spell known (in the latter case, the Sorcerer must still adhere to the maximum spells known listed on the Sorcerer table. The only time this option is available is if he has learned lower level spells in place of higher level spells earlier) This does not replace the 300 XP minimum of Limited Wish. However, this cannot be used to change fixed class features (like spontaneous Cure/Inflict Spells of Clerics, or a Druid's summon Nature's Ally), nor abilities granted by a feat (Signature Spell, Spontaneous Domain Access). He can affect it upon himself, or a free-willed and willing individual (cannot be under the effects of charm or dominate, or any similar compulsion, or mind affecting power). This individual can accept the XP costs if used for his benefit. So, Sorcerer Jerry wants to swap out his Dimension Door for a Lower Spell Resistance. It costs 300 XP, since that is the minimum XP cost of Limited Wish. If he then wants to change his Gate spell for a Time Stop, it would cost him 450 XP (18*25). And for Wish: In addition to Wish's normal abilities, a caster can use Wish to expand his or her spell repetoire, adding a spell known. This is an extra spell for a spontaneous caster, or a spell that does not need a spellbook (like affected by the spell mastery feat). A Wish used in this manner cannot be used on other individuals, nor does it come without cost. To use this ability, a spellcaster must burn 1000*spell level, in addition to the normal cost of casting Wish. So, for example, if a caster wants to add a ninth-level spell to his or her spells known, or spells that don't require preparation, it would cost 9000 XP, plus the cost of a Wish (whether a scroll can be used to get around 5000 XP worth of the cost is up to the GM. I personally would disallow such abuse, except for the purposes of acquiring Wish). This is probably a little powerful, but I am too tired to go into extreme analysis.
Mondreyes 09-25-04, 11:50 PM	Sensei Gith-- Why not just give everyone the same stats then, since everyone can do something that is equivalent. Rule zero. The DM can't cheat. A Wish should be the rarest spell in the game so it prevents abuse and allows for great things to happen when one rarley does find one. the Horc-- I agree, there should be a lot of house rules for Wish and Limited Wish. Rule one should be that you do not get instant access to it. You should have to research or find that spell. It's as potent as any magi item available. As I have said before, If you were the first arcane spell caster to discover Wish, would you give it away at any cots and if you did, don't you think other spell casters would hang onto spells like Wish and Time Stop?
Mondreyes 09-26-04, 12:13 AM	Trying to avoid getting dragged into the fight that a Wish should be allowed to any spellcaster and that it does just about anything. I think I answered my own question. You can get a Feat that allows you extra spell slots, so the question then becomes-- How many additional spells can tyou learn with a Wish?
BlaineTog 09-26-04, 12:26 AM	In addition to Wish's normal abilities, a caster can use Wish to expand his or her spell repetoire, adding a spell known. This is an extra spell for a spontaneous caster, or a spell that does not need a spellbook (like affected by the spell mastery feat). A Wish used in this manner cannot be used on other individuals, nor does it come without cost. To use this ability, a spellcaster must burn 1000*spell level, in addition to the normal cost of casting Wish. So, for example, if a caster wants to add a ninth-level spell to his or her spells known, or spells that don't require preparation, it would cost 9000 XP, plus the cost of a Wish I don't know. 9k XP is basically 2 wishes. My tif is that there's already a set costs for just casting a spell (5k XP) and that doesn't even count 9th level ones. Sp, spend 5,000 XP to cast an 8th level spell once, or 13,000 XP to be able to cast it until doomsday.... (whether a scroll can be used to get around 5000 XP worth of the cost is up to the GM. I personally would disallow such abuse, except for the purposes of acquiring Wish).Of course a scroll of wish doesn't cost the user 5k XP; it costs 25,000 GP more than any other 9th level scroll (Miracle excluded). Why not just give everyone the same stats then, since everyone can do something that is equivalent. Rule zero. The DM can't cheat.The DM most certainly can cheat. He just gets away with it (until, of course, his players all up and leave). Rule 0 is that you are allowed to change anything in the game to better fit your group's playing style, not that the DM is allowed to go on periodic power trips. A Wish should be the rarest spell in the game so it prevents abuse and allows for great things to happen when one rarley does find one.Whoa there, Tex. Be careful when throwing around words like "should."
Mondreyes 09-26-04, 12:42 AM	BlaineTog-- I said "should", not absolutely. I did not throw anything around. I did not speak in an absolute. Rule zero, which I do not agree with, is the DM is always right. Of course, this is not what this post is about.
The Simbul 09-26-04, 12:52 AM	I think that in the forgotten realms campaing setting says that the simbul had use a wish to gain one extra spell known of 9 level. Maybe that could serve as a guidelineNote that the Simbul's stats were written prior to the creation of the Epic Level Handbook, and subsequently before the creation of the Spell Knowledge feat. And while she still has more spells known than she should in her epic revision (i.e. a FRCS cut & paste with Delay Spell and Epic Spellcasting) the designers did specifically remove the line of text from her supernatural abilities that said she used Wishes for additional sorcerer spells known. Personally I dont think it was a very good idea for them to make her a Sorcerer to begin with, given that she has more spells named after her in 3rd edition sourcebooks than any other named FR Spellcaster, yet with a Sorcerer's limited spell knowledge she cant have them all in her repertoire at the same time (hence the reason the designers came up with the overcompensating idea of using Wish spells to swap out spells...guess its a good thing that NPC's dont have to worry about XP). Wishes should never be used to grant class features, and if they do, there should be a flat limit upon it (like five such abilities/bonus features as an inherent limit, as with ability scores), since spending 5,000 XP is far less of an expenditure than gaining feats and HD.
Mondreyes 09-26-04, 01:11 AM	A Wish in my opinion is fine when it costs 15 Wishes to raise an attribute 5 points but not when it is 5 Wishes in a row for 5 attribute points. A Wish probably should be able to add bonus spells for a Sorcerer to know but other than cantrips you should never be allowed to knwo more than the level below you. To gain an additional 9th level spell for a Sorecer to know, there should be some added penalty. I;m not sure what that penalty should be. We don't give out Wish as a standard spell when someone reaches that level. First, it is the most powerful and diverse spell in the game and most arcane casters would guard it with their life. Second, it feels better and makes for better character tales when you have to quest for a Wish.
the Horc 09-26-04, 11:59 PM	Sp, spend 5,000 XP to cast an 8th level spell once, or 13,000 XP to be able to cast it until doomsday.... " Well, we could, say, increase the XP cost, making it 10000*Spell level.