Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lago AM3P 11-07-03, 08:21 PM	Aside from the spell resistance, speed, saves, and higher-than-average touch attack. Which, I admit, is a pretty big deal on paper, but so what? Really. That's just not a big deal for the level when these things become relevant. Not even for the wizards, whom everyone says that they should fear the monks. I just don't see this happening, however. Monks are still as vulnerable to the tactics of non-nuke primary spellcasters as everyone else is.
ManTimeForgot 11-07-03, 09:07 PM	Ok. Maybe well built wizard should not fear a well built monk, but he definitely must be wary about him. Any 20th level fighter would give his soul over to an arch-demon to get the 30 SR the monk has at 20. The high will save (plus enchantment resist of +2) means that the traditional anti-fighter response of dominate does not work versus a monk. The speed means that a wizard cannot run away. Yes he can still teleport, but teleport is a no longer in combat ability. If you try to use teleport to just stay out of range, then you are going to run into problems. The monk is not easy to down between all of his abilities and he can catch up with you because of his abundant step ability. I would also suggest to you that stunning fist also makes for a nice means of stopping a caster cold. The spell caster at high levels can make a concentration check just fine, but how about a DC twenty something fortitude save? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
mercurywyrm 11-07-03, 10:40 PM	But the wizard never has to leave himself vulnerable, he can just spend his time in his Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion living the high life for the rest of his life once he gets to that level, of course he may wan't to be out there helping people but he can always go and do that every once in a while, if it suits him. The mansion is the ultimate infinite safe haven and lasts more than a day by the level you can cast it, and is has a focus not a material component. Imagine how much money you could make running a resort hotel that is a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion!:D The monk dosn't have to want to kill you. You can be his friend if you offer him free room and board in your manison!:D
Kzzk 11-07-03, 11:11 PM	Why should the wizard fear the monk when he is flying and invisible most of the time and there's no way to swat the bastard out of the air without the PC accusing you of picking on him. I hate I hate I HATE that damn wizard. Sorry my stuff.
Luminous Crayon 11-07-03, 11:11 PM	That's absolutely right: you never have to fear anyone or anything if you never leave the safety of your house. In other, unrelated news, I love my DSL.
q'afuu 11-07-03, 11:21 PM	Why does everrbody allows assume the moronic 'naked' Monk build when discussing Monk vs. Whatever? If your Wiz wants to be relatively safe from a well-equiped Monk who is prepped to deal with a Wiz, he'll have to compromize and shore up some of his weaknesses by accepting less offensive power than he might have had otherwise.
BW0222 11-08-03, 12:20 AM	SR 30 is nothing for a 20th level wizard. That's still a 50% of having it effect without considering spell penetration. Fly up and rain spells down until he eventually fails. There are also lots of spells available to spell casters which spell resistance down not apply to. Wall of thorns, wall of stone, transmute rock to mud, summoning creatures with missile weapons, gating in friends, flying away, shapechange, etc. If the wizard made it to those levels, he's likely familiar with ways of tackling drow, demons, and other spell resistant creatures. Thanks, Brett
Lago AM3P 11-08-03, 02:41 AM	Edit. NM.
sanishiver 11-08-03, 03:53 AM	The PC Monk IMC manages to Stun/Quivering Palm fairly well. He even caught a 20th level Githyanki Sorcerer this way. I think the trick is to not look at it from the “Optimal Build” perspective, but from the “What’s most likely to happen, given all the highly complex variables of the game?” perspective. :whatsthis
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-03, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Aside from the spell resistance, speed, saves, and higher-than-average touch attack. Let's quantify these: SR: at equal levels, the caster is 55% likely to win the check, or 65% likely if he's spent a feat on Spell Penetration. Call it 60% likely. Speed (SPD): note that a high-level monk with Airwalk moves 30-50% faster than a Flying wizard. Saves (SV): aside from 2+lvl/2 to all saves, the monk places high importance on all three save stats, meaning an eventual bonus from stats of about +5 to each, +5 resistance, and +1 luck. Call it 1+lvl/2, giving the monk saves of 3+lvl (approx). The wizard's DC gets +lvl/2 (spell level), eventual +8-10 from Int, and a few other misc. bonuses (SF/GSF); call it 10+lvl. In other words, at equal levels the monk has about a 70% chance of making his save. Touch AC (TAC): the wizard will gain an eventual +4 or so to touch attacks from Dex-adders, making his bonus about lvl*2/3. The monk will eventually have +5 deflection, +4 innate, and +10-12 Wis+Dex, for a touch AC of about 10+lvl. Accordingly, the wizard will succeed only about 35% of the time at 12th level, down to about 20% at level 20; call it 30% overall (without Truestrike). I just don't see this happening, however. Monks are still as vulnerable to the tactics of non-nuke primary spellcasters as everyone else is. Not quite as vulnerable. Let's look at some of the common wizard/sorcerer approaches to Bashing Things Real Good: 1) Direct damage (Scorching Ray): 18% chance of success due to SR and TAC, or nearly a 60% chance if burning a Quickened Truestrike every time. 2) Area damage (Cone of Cold): 18% chance of doing half damage due to SR, SV, and Improved Evasion. 3) No-Save Touches (Dance): 18% chance of success, or 60% with QT. 4) Mind Blasts (Dominate): 12% chance of success due to SR, SV, and Still Mind. 5) Body Blasts (some Fort save): 18% chance of success (SR, SV) Many common wizard/sorcerer attacks that work great on fighters and clerics are rendered very unreliable by the monk's abilities. Old standbyes that can still work are: 1) Invisibility 2) Fly 3) Teleport 4) No-SR attacks (walls) 5) Summon monsters #1 and #2 should be largely non-issues; any high-level character should be capable of dealing with flying and invisible creatures, or he's soon to be a high-level ex-character. Potions of See Invisibility are cheap, as are potions of Invisibility to even the scales. In fact, the monk arguably has an advantage here; since he's got Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, and Listen as class skills, the wizard will need to have a spell to figure out where the monk is, whereas the monk will likely be able to hear the wizard and determine his location from that. Moreover, a high-level monk with an Item of Airwalk is generally faster than a Fly spell, giving him a mobility advantage. #3 is also not so much of an issue; either one can teleport or planewalk to escape a losing situation, if given the chance. However, there will not always be such a chance; the wizard could get a save-or-die through the monk's defenses, or the monk could stun the wizard (DC ~10+lvl*5/6 vs. Fort ~lvl*2/3 --> ~50-60% chance of stun) and follow up with a punishing full-round attack that either downs him or stuns him again. The wizard comes out ahead with this point, since he may have a "teleport me to safety if I'm stunned or knocked out" Contingency (although it's likely to be used for something else). #4 may or may not be a sizeable issue, depending on what spells exist. Most wall spells shouldn't cause too much problem for a highly mobile character who can fly. #5 can certainly work, but is far from guaranteed. Especially if the wizard and monk are both invisible and stalking each other, the wizard runs the risk of the monk waiting out the durations of the summoning spells. Moreover, the noise of casting and the (visible) appearance of monsters gives away the wizard's location, setting him up for a long-range stunning/quivering charge out of cover. In practice, a well-equipped high-level monk does fairly well against a similarly-powerful wizard. The one time we tried it, the (20th level) monk and wizard were evenly matched over the combat, the wizard throwing summoned demons, prismatic walls, invisibility, flying, teleportation, ethereal travel, and more into the mix with the monk deftly avoiding or countering all of it. (FWIW, the wizard killed or rendered useless everyone else; we all learned that proper gear is exceedingly important to a high-level character). I would argue that spellcasters are much more powerful than non-spellcasters at high levels, but monks are likely to have a much better chance against them than most other non-casters. (Witness, for example, the poor fighter's susceptibility to a well-placed Dominate.)
Willie the Duck 11-08-03, 06:41 PM	Besides, It's not a question of can a monk insta-kill a wizard or not. It's the fact that monks are the most (of all standard classes) able to resist a wizard's ability, as well as have many attacks (fort based stun attack, grapple, high mobility) that are particularly effective against wizards. A well prepared wizard can do serious damage to any single enemy of any class, that's why people don't travel alone in D&D. But a monk is a good choice to use to put the wizard on the offensive. btw, talking about flying out of harms way while invisible is the most droning blahblahbah of all time. Yes, we get it! if you can't detect invisible and have flying yourself or excellent long-range, the wizard will beet you. Too bad virtually every monster and party is designed to beat this.
detectevil 11-08-03, 07:34 PM	It's not the SR, the high saves nor the uuntouchble touch AC alone. I'ts all those things togheter. The wizard has a good chance of passing the monks SR, the monk has a good chance of failing his saving throw, but the chance of both happening become much smaller. If you throw in the possibility that the monk may grapple the wizard, and them he will draw attacks of opportunity when casting (because he can no longer cast defensively, since you make your concentration check to be able to cast while grappled, and do it dedfensively would be, at least, much harder), the chance of the wizard actually suceeding in cast a spell becomes minimal.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-03, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by detectevil If you throw in the possibility that the monk may grapple the wizard, and them he will draw attacks of opportunity when casting But not from the monk - anyone in a grapple doesn't threaten anyone. (Don't have the page number, but it's under the 3.5 description of Grapple.)
detectevil 11-08-03, 07:51 PM	Seriously? Well, that's just rude... :sad:
PingGuy 11-08-03, 11:11 PM	Who cares about the lack of an AOO, the Wizard isn't gonna be able to cast much of anything anyway. From the 3.5 SRD: Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. The monk can still damage the caster each round on an attack roll at -4 or on an opposed grapple roll with no penalty, whichever the player chooses. Even a sorcerer can't use the Still Spell Metamagic Feat because it makes the spell a full round action. So basically only a wizard who has memmed a spell with the still spell feat or can cast a spell with no somatic component has a chance here. Even then they have to make a conc check at 20+spell level. Of course if they don't have the spell components in hand it will take a full round action to retrieve them and that's another round the monk can damage them. Throw in some stunning fists while the caster is grappled and things could be bad.
Zardnaar 11-08-03, 11:36 PM	Originally posted by PingGuy Who cares about the lack of an AOO, the Wizard isn't gonna be able to cast much of anything anyway. From the 3.5 SRD: Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. The monk can still damage the caster each round on an attack roll at -4 or on an opposed grapple roll with no penalty, whichever the player chooses. Even a sorcerer can't use the Still Spell Metamagic Feat because it makes the spell a full round action. So basically only a wizard who has memmed a spell with the still spell feat or can cast a spell with no somatic component has a chance here. Even then they have to make a conc check at 20+spell level. Of course if they don't have the spell components in hand it will take a full round action to retrieve them and that's another round the monk can damage them. Throw in some stunning fists while the caster is grappled and things could be bad. This is what happened yesterday with our PC monk. Utterly dorked a sorceror he managed to get close enough to.
mad mac 11-08-03, 11:58 PM	lol! I just got a mental image of a monk holding a mage in a headlock and thumping him on the head while saying stuff like "Watcha gonna do now poindexter? Huh, Huh?" All he needs to do now is take his lunch money and dump him in a latrine.:D Of course, I've thought for a while now that a high-level monk pretty much makes for the ultimate bully character. Good saves and SR, while annoying to equal level spellcasters, makes him nearly invulnerable to less worthy opponents-as does his super speed, touch AC, all around decency without gear, damage reduction, and nasty stun attacks.
A Man In Black 11-09-03, 01:20 AM	Freedom of Movement and Fly pretty much means that a monk is as much or more of a joke than a paladin or barbarian when it comes to hunting high-level spellcasters. Note that those two spells negate ALL of the monk's offensive advantages. Every single one of them. Speed, grapple, all of it. Even Stunning Fist, previously the exclusive domain of the monk, is now available to any PC that wants it (and it can be combined with Ki Focus weapons, which are now core and quite cheap.) The monk is questionably better at resisting magical attacks, but once you get to about 8-12th level, what can a mnok DO that nobody else can? Not what can a monk RESIST, but what can a monk CONTRIBUTE?
sanishiver 11-09-03, 04:09 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black Freedom of Movement and Fly ... Note that those two spells negate ALL of the monk's offensive advantages. And when you're adventuring in a dungeon? Let's get back to reality. As for my campaign, the PC Monk is quite capable of flying (via his Boots) and can look to either of the Party's Wizards for Targeted Dispels. Yes, Freedom of Movement is a headache spell for any Monk, but not insurmountable. Originally posted by A Man In Black Even Stunning Fist, previously the exclusive domain of the monk, is now available to any PC that wants it ... but once you get to about 8-12th level, what can a monk DO that nobody else can? ...but what can a monk CONTRIBUTE? A Monk is better at resisting magical attacks. The 18th level Monk IMC is quite adept at flanking foes, tripping foes, grappling and pinning foes (even big ones, thanks to Enlarge), attacking multiple foes at once, covering incredible distances to take the fight to the enemy, breaking things with his Adamantine-shattering fists and communicating with even the strangest and rarest creatures; all while adeptly evading attacks of opportunity, spells and physical attacks via his high Tumble Skill, SR and AC. That the other PCs IMC can do some of these things does not make the PC Monk any less useful. Remember, adventuring is a team sport. Discussions about one class not being able to "beat" another class shed little or no light on the topic of balance between the classes. All they really do is identify where a given class is weak; meaning we look to one or more of the other classes to fill the gap in game. :whatsthis
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-09-03, 04:13 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black Freedom of Movement and Fly pretty much means that a monk is as much or more of a joke than a paladin or barbarian when it comes to hunting high-level spellcasters. Note that those two spells negate ALL of the monk's offensive advantages. Every single one of them. Speed, grapple, all of it. Except for his greater speed and maneuverability (with Airwalk), his Stunning Fist that the wizard will have progressively less and less chance to resist, his Quivering Palm that's the same (but lethal), his stealth to sneak up on the wizard and his Listen to find him when invisible. Since Teleport can be cast while grappling, I'd been assuming grappling wasn't that useful anyway. Even Stunning Fist, previously the exclusive domain of the monk, is now available to any PC that wants it (and it can be combined with Ki Focus weapons, which are now core and quite cheap.) It's also a bad idea for anyone except a cleric or druid. Does a fighter want three or four low-DC Fort saves, or would he rather have another 10% damage per round from another +1 enhancement? (FWIW, Stunning Fist was also a general feat in 3.0.) The monk is questionably better at resisting magical attacks, but once you get to about 8-12th level, what can a mnok DO that nobody else can? Not what can a monk RESIST, but what can a monk CONTRIBUTE? What can a barbarian or fighter do that nobody else can? Very little, but they're still useful. A high-level monk can Tumble over, under, around, and through any wizard's defensive line with ease, landing a Stunning strike that'll let the rest of the party clear up the minions in safety. If he's got Spring Attack and is within about 30 feet, he can Stun the evil wizard and be back where he started from without breaking a sweat. Monks typically aren't power-characters, but they can be effective in disabling strikes against soft-but-protected targets (wizards behind a line), or at harrying because of their great ranged survivability.
General Dorsey 11-09-03, 09:36 AM	Aside from the spell resistance, speed, saves, and higher-than-average touch attack. Which, I admit, is a pretty big deal on paper, but so what? Really. On the flip side: Why should the monk fear the wizard, aside from all his spells and ability to make magic items, which is a pretty big deal, but so what, really? Your argument is invalid when you invalidate all the things that make the monk effective against spellcasters. I did notice that you didn't mention the stunning fist, which would cripple the spellcaster if he failed his save. Are there any classes you do like? I have never seen a post from you that states what's right with any of the classes. If they all suck, doesn't that make them equal in the long run?
Lago AM3P 11-09-03, 01:09 PM	Why should the monk fear the wizard, aside from all his spells and ability to make magic items, which is a pretty big deal, but so what, really? Okay, imagine, if you will, two opponents. One is the lowly CR 3 Shadow. The other is a paragon 17th level 3.0E monk troll, attacking with unarmed strikes. While the troll normally has absolutely nothing to fear from the shadow, the troll can never ever hope to damage the shadow. So on a huge combat scale of about hours, the troll will simply die and become shadow bait given the way auto-hits and auto-fails work in this edition, simply because of the way things work. The fact that our opponent is a paragon 17th level 3.0E monk troll as opposed to a regular troll doesn't scare the shadow anymore than not, because the troll can't reasonably hurt him. So, both the unstoppable troll and the normal troll are in the same boat. That's the kind of question I'm trying to bring up here. The monks have been billed as the unstoppable warrior trolls, but, what do they DO against primary spellcasters other than just show resistance? Because between illusions, transportation magic, conjurations, polymorphing, and defensive magic, the monk doesn't really DO anything, even if he lives a lot longer than the other character classes. Is that the situation we face? I think it is.
sanishiver 11-09-03, 03:31 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Okay, imagine, if you will, two opponents… All kinds of holes in this hypothetical situation. Now then, some questions: [list=1] How often will a Paragon Troll Monk be limited to just unarmed strikes? Why isn’t the Troll’s using equipment (say a magical Kama)? Is this Troll an NPC, or a PC? If a PC, what about his adventuring companions? Since a Paragon Troll Fighter (or Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Wizard) would be in a similar boat, are we supposed to conclude all these classes need fixing too? [/list=1] Originally posted by Lago AM3P That's the kind of question I'm trying to bring up here. The monks have been billed as the unstoppable warrior trolls, but, what do they DO against primary spellcasters other than just show resistance? Because between illusions, transportation magic, conjurations, polymorphing, and defensive magic, the monk doesn't really DO anything, even if he lives a lot longer than the other character classes. IMO Monks are not “unstoppable warrior trolls”, but neither are they “weak in the knees”. Illusions don’t shut a party down, so I don’t think they’ll shut a Monk down. For Transportation magic, the Monk counters with Dimension Door and movement. Conjurations can likely be stunned, made to fall prone via Trip or otherwise evaded via a Monks high move speed. A Monk can resist Polymorphs directed at him (via Saves or SR), and on and on… Remember: A Monk isn’t just the sum of his race and class abilities, but also his equipment and whatever other benefits he garners from his fellow party members. :whatsthis
ManTimeForgot 11-09-03, 04:47 PM	The monk, one level after a wizard can get teleport or the same level as a sorceror, does not really care if the wizard uses teleport. If the wizard teleports to some place miles away, then well the wizard has retreated and combat is over. But, if the wizard has decided to try and supplement his mobility with teleport then he is in for a rude awakening. The wizard will find out very quickly just how fast a monk is. The wizard will have to modify his tactics and start teleporting further away than usual. (one teleport used to figure this out) The monk, once the wizard uses a second teleport to get further away, uses abundant step to close the gap, much to the dismay of the wizard. Just how many teleports do you keep memorized anyway? The moment the monk gets in close without the wizard teleporting off its grapple time. The wizard had better have freedom of movement up or its snowball deluxe for the wizard. A 20th level monk is going to be able to deal with ethereal creatures and walk through walls all the same. So at this point: the magical transportation of the wizard is all but combat useless. Conjurations: What of them? Summon monster you mean? Polymorphing = useless. Assuming you get passed the SR you almost assuredly won't get passed the save. Unless by polymorphing you mean changing the environment in wacky ways. But then again you said you were flying so what are you going to do blow Polymorph any object and change air into something? Defensive spells: like what? Stoneskin doesn't help. Mirror image is nice. Displacement helps. But the little low level ones could be quaffed in potions by the monk too. Monk can't do anything to the wizard? If the monk gets in close then stunning fist and quivering palm generally count as stuff that can be done. Getting stunned sucks. Getting killed is worse. What is the wizard's fort save again? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Draco Argentum 11-09-03, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by sanishiver All kinds of holes in this hypothetical situation. Now then, some questions: [list=1] How often will a Paragon Troll Monk be limited to just unarmed strikes? Why isn’t the Troll’s using equipment (say a magical Kama)? Is this Troll an NPC, or a PC? If a PC, what about his adventuring companions? Since a Paragon Troll Fighter (or Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Wizard) would be in a similar boat, are we supposed to conclude all these classes need fixing too? [/list=1] A better example. The tarrasque. Once you can fly this thing has no way to hurt you. The instant you can't hurt someone who can hurt you, you loose. I think you guys will find Lago is polymorphing himself, not the monk.
RobTzu 11-09-03, 08:42 PM	We have a monk in our campaign and is definitly our anti-spellcaster specialist. That in of itself is a "contribution". Aside from that he is an excellent scout. The contest between a monk and a spellcaster of equal level and equipment comes down to who is taken unawares. I don't mean flatfooted, I mean whoever picks the fight and has ample time to prepare usually will win. A wizard or sorcerer can't afford to buff themselves for 2 rounds with a Monk on the prowl within 100 yards. But as was said earlier thats, why we play in groups.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-09-03, 09:10 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P That's the kind of question I'm trying to bring up here. The monks have been billed as the unstoppable warrior trolls, but, what do they DO against primary spellcasters other than just show resistance? Because between illusions, transportation magic, conjurations, polymorphing, and defensive magic, the monk doesn't really DO anything, even if he lives a lot longer than the other character classes. Is that the situation we face? I think it is. What sort of test would you consider convincing? Ponder, for example, how a monk might attack a wizard at high levels. The monk sneaks close, quaffs a potion of Invisibility, picks an opportune moment, and charges the wizard, landing a Stunning Quivering blow. ~95% chance the wizard is hit, ~60-70% chance the wizard dies, ~12% chance the wizard is neither dead nor stunned and can take some action in response. Bad news for the wizard, unless he pierces the monk's class-skill Sneak/Hide. Ponder, instead, how a wizard might attack a monk at high levels. Improvedly Invisible and flying, the wizard...does what? - comes in with a menangerie of summoned monsters and unleashes them on the monk while blasting him? Could do, but the monk's class-skill Listen might detect the creatures moving up to him. - save-or-dies the monk from a distance? Could do, but the monk's SR and saves make it a long shot, probably squandering the element of surprise. - something clever you come up with? I dunno - let's see what you think the wizard might do. 1) If a wizard were to attack a monk at a time of the wizard's choosing, how would he ensure victory? 2) If a wizard and monk were stalking each other, how would the wizard ensure victory? 3) If a monk were to attack a wizard at a time of the monk's choosing, how would the wizard ensure his safety? (Keep in mind that the monk will - like all high-level characters should - have ways of dealing with flying and invisible opponents, as well as ways of escaping traps, such as teleportation, plane-hopping, and invisibility.) It could be the wizard can trample all over every non-primary caster - I wouldn't be all that surprised. But it seems like a monk should have a better time of it than most.
khyron1144 11-09-03, 10:56 PM	The best wizard spell for this situation is Magic Missile. Direct damage, no save, and you can have about five of them in memory at high level. Then there's the metamagicked ones in higher level slots, maximized, empowered, and maximized and empowered. Yes, SR is still a factor, but even if your chances are only fifty-fifty or sixty-forty, they're still okay.
Lago AM3P 11-09-03, 11:02 PM	But, if the wizard has decided to try and supplement his mobility with teleport then he is in for a rude awakening. The wizard will find out very quickly just how fast a monk is. The wizard will have to modify his tactics and start teleporting further away than usual. (one teleport used to figure this out) The monk, once the wizard uses a second teleport to get further away, uses abundant step to close the gap, much to the dismay of the wizard. Just how many teleports do you keep memorized anyway? What? Didn't we go over how a standard teleport ambush works? You teleport way farther away than anyone without teleport can hope to catch you within a reasonable time frame, get yourself some allies, spend some time buffing and drinking some potions, and teleport your happy arse back in there when you feel like it. No one with teleport fears someone moving at a mere 90 ft on the attack OR defense. Teleport ambushes are so good that they're really the only way to adventure in higher levels; entire plots revolve around getting or avoiding scried and died. It's one of the reasons why you NEED transportation magic later in the game. something clever you come up with? I dunno - let's see what you think the wizard might do. If I was a high-level wizard? Shi'... I'm not a big fan of arena combat (especially within an unlimited timeframe, which is what the wizard wants), since I think it vastly favors the primary spellcasters. But, were I going to do it... First, I'd polymorph any object some stone golems out of statues. Then I'd gate or planar bind some big bad-ass monster and have him auto-fail a save for magic jar. Maybe make a simacrulum out of myself beforehand, and have the simacrulums cast magic jar into some mooks. Or create undead some undead flesh puppets, being careful to secure them beforehand. The simacrulums will cast charm monster incessantly until they tell them to accept this spell. Win a charisma check, which you will with moment of prescience, setting them up for an extended dominate monster. While having a devourers in a chain of command is normally bad stuff, they're only supposed to last for the next teleport ambush. Or I could just quicken some silent images, and cast those in addition to my regular spells. The monk needs to spend a standard action or an attack attack to interact and thus get a save against it, while I attack with regular spells. Probably telekinesis until one breaks through spell resistance. If the telekinesis manuever doesn't work, repeat with silent images. A robe of the archmage, greater spell penetration, and an orange ioun stone is vital for this, as it will reduce the chance of an equal-level monk making the SR roll at... 15%. Have a polymorphed goon crash through the gates when that happens. Or just shapechange into a demilich (epic-level monster) and have some fun. Or cast Astral Projection from the safety of home and do this without worrying if somehow the plans fail. Oh. And I'd work a teleport ambush somewhere in there. So. Shadow vs. Paragon Warrior Monk Troll? Shadow vs. Paragon Warrior Monk Troll.
ManTimeForgot 11-10-03, 12:17 AM	Astral projection? Ok but everyone and their brother knows this spell is ludicrously broken, so I won't consider it. Yes a wizard can do it, but with astral projection the wizard can beat any class not just a monk. Biased comparison tool if anything. Teleport ambush? Ok assuming the monk isn't in possession of whatever amulet it is that makes you immune to scrying, then all the monk has to do is outrun your summon monsters and survive your spells. Want to include robe, ioun stone, and spell penetration? Then my monk could conceivably have lightning reflexes, iron will, great fortitude, the run feat, and some various movement based items. Want to concede that the monk can outrun your summon monsters? I think you can safely say that a monk with a speed of 150 and the run feat can outrun any monster you can summon. So what exactly are you going to do on your teleport ambush? Mind that you have to overpower the monk in the first round or so. If you bring in a bazillion summons then the monk just runs away, and you are left powerless to continue adventuring for the day because you have wasted all your spells summoning stuff and powering up. Also I don't agree entirely with what you claim is the nature of one of your premises for your case. You are making a case for spellcasting being more powerful than fighting, not monk is incapable of being anti-spellcasting. A monk is a formiddable opponent for a spellcaster, but it is not so much as to be insurmountable. Do you really feel that there should exist a class to hose wizards entirely? I certainly don't feel that way, and I don't then see why this debate has to be about monks hosing wizards entirely. Monks are tough opponents for spellcasters, not insurmountable foes who cannot be defeated. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
mad mac 11-10-03, 12:26 AM	Well yes.......that's more or less why everyone likes to use archmagi as scary uberbadguys. A peturbed and focused wizard could more than likely whack any target, given time. I don't see that as a strike against the monk though. Most characters don't want to get into an inpromptu, intoxicated bar brawl with an angry half-ogre barbarian either, but the fact that Grog is really good at tossing people through walls doesn't make him the best guy around in every circumstance. So what is monks schtick? That's harder to pin down than most characters. I think the idea behind the monk is that he's capable of dealing with a wide range of dangers without all that careful preparation. Although he's not always optimal, and sometimes seriously in trouble(At least he's good at running:D ) monks can be kinda adaptable for warrior types. Well, aside from being tied to melee, but even that can be worked around somewhat. I think the current monk is more Jackie Chan than bruce lee, but I know some people really prefer Bruce. I like Chan myself, so I can't complain too much.:cool:
Zoloft 11-10-03, 01:06 AM	Here's how a high level sorc beats a high level monk: Otiluke's resilient sphere on either the monk or self, then Ice storm/Empowered Ice Storm/Maxxed Ice Storm, etc until dead monk Monk can't break sphere to get out/in, and Ice Storm has no save so its just SR until fail.
Zoloft 11-10-03, 01:18 AM	err, abundant step bypasses otilukes resilient sphere so that dosent work. NM... But otiluke's resilient sphere does work as a good defense against most other tanks imo; especially since the mage can cast out of it.
Zoloft 11-10-03, 01:26 AM	on second thought the monk can abundant step only once per day so two castings of arcane prepared quickened otilukes resilient sphere should completely immobilize a monk for a good blasting session of horrid wilting, Ice storm, mordenkainens swords And time stop to kick it all off just to make the whole thing spectacular of course. Yes, I just became a one man thread arguing with myself in my last 3 posts...
Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge 11-10-03, 01:39 AM	Ok, I didn't read all the posts, as I didn't have time, so, first, sorry to those who I skipped over. I'm going to assume the characters are built, the way I would build them, to survive the game. This is also based in D&D 3.0, as that's what I play, and the arena is 100'x100'x100' The wizard is a Human Wiz5/Red10/Acm5 (with a total of +11 spell power). Assuming his highest original stat was a 17, he has a base Int of 27, from a Tome of Clear Thought(?) and the five points from leveling. He also has Mastery of Shaping, and Mastery of Counterspelling. He has True Seeing, but not prepared, and he has one unused spell slot at each level. The monk is a Human Mnk10/NotCM10, and between items, skills, and stats, has a Hide bonus of +80 (Yes, I had a PC pull this off.) The monk hides, and the wizard flies up. Neither can see each other, so the Wiz creates a Tenser's Floating Disk (yes, I use this spell, it has come in very handy) and floats to the center of the arena, 50'x50'x50'. He prepares True Seeing to his empty spell slot, which takes several minutes. In the meanwhile, the monk, who has Boots of Striding and Springing, equips his Ring of Jump, and positions himself underneath the wizard. While the wiz prepares his spell, the monk leaps up, and begins a grapple. The Disk can support both of them, easily (2000 lbs), so they grapple right there. This is why wizards have to worry the most about monks: they can use their unarmed strikes while grappling. This means the Wiz risks taking BIG damage if the monk hits. On a more amusing note, if the monk is simply a Mnk20 build, then the Wiz can summon him with a summon spell!:D I don't know what's accepted, but in my world, this binds the summoned to obey the summoner for the duration of the spell, as long as a language is shared, no matter how much the creature doesn't want to. This would be, of course, if the monk failed his will save. But he IS an outsider, and thus can be summoned!:D :D :D
A Man In Black 11-10-03, 01:42 AM	Originally posted by sanishiver And when you're adventuring in a dungeon? Let's get back to reality. As for my campaign, the PC Monk is quite capable of flying (via his Boots) and can look to either of the Party's Wizards for Targeted Dispels. Yes, Freedom of Movement is a headache spell for any Monk, but not insurmountable. His speeded movement is utterly moot. EVERYONE can fly. Originally posted by sanishiver A Monk is better at resisting magical attacks. Okay. It's ALL he's good at. Originally posted by sanishiver The 18th level Monk IMC is quite adept at flanking foes, tripping foes, grappling and pinning foes (even big ones, thanks to Enlarge), attacking multiple foes at once, covering incredible distances to take the fight to the enemy, breaking things with his Adamantine-shattering fists and communicating with even the strangest and rarest creatures; all while adeptly evading attacks of opportunity, spells and physical attacks via his high Tumble Skill, SR and AC. All of which a fighter (or fighterX/rogue1) with a high dex and an adamantine sword can do, and probably better, what with higher BAB and more HP and probably better AC. Before you mention "wis to AC", a monk's belt can do that. A slap in the face, after "upgrading" the monk for 3.5. Originally posted by sanishiver That the other PCs IMC can do some of these things does not make the PC Monk any less useful. But if the monk player wanted to do those things, he could do them better with a non-monk. That's what this all comes down to. Monks aren't useless, but non-monks outperform them in ALL of their specialties other than resisting magic. And once a spellcaster with any intelligence sees his first spell bounce off, he'll target a more vulnerable party member. Originally posted by sanishiver Remember, adventuring is a team sport. Discussions about one class not being able to "beat" another class shed little or no light on the topic of balance between the classes. All they really do is identify where a given class is weak; meaning we look to one or more of the other classes to fill the gap in game. This IS being analyzed on a "what does this character contribute to the party" level. The problem is that the monk doesn't contribute anything that another class or combination of classes can't contribute just as well or better. Originally posted by Dire Celestial Bonobo Except for his greater speed and maneuverability (with Airwalk), Most of the flying will be done with Wings of Flying or Potions of Flight, since they actually let you fly directly up. Anyone with Flight can fly circles around ANY character with Airwalk. Originally posted by sanishiver his Stunning Fist that the wizard will have progressively less and less chance to resist, Who said other characters can't have high wis? A druid with Stunning Fist is SCARY, a fighter with Stunning Fight and a Monk's Belt gets as much benefit from Wis as a monk does. Originally posted by sanishiver his Quivering Palm that's the same (but lethal), ...and so limited as to be practically useless... Originally posted by sanishiver his stealth to sneak up on the wizard and his Listen to find him when invisible. Or the exceedingly cheap potions of see invisible to do the latter. Originally posted by sanishiver Since Teleport can be cast while grappling, I'd been assuming grappling wasn't that useful anyway. Eeeyup. Originally posted by sanishiver It's also a bad idea for anyone except a cleric or druid. Does a fighter want three or four low-DC Fort saves, or would he rather have another 10% damage per round from another +1 enhancement? Whoever said a fighter couldn't get high wis? Originally posted by sanishiver (FWIW, Stunning Fist was also a general feat in 3.0.) Now the DC is based on character level, rather than getting limited benefits from non-monk levels. Originally posted by sanishiver What can a barbarian or fighter do that nobody else can? Very little, but they're still useful. They can tank at all levels. A monk cannot. Originally posted by sanishiver A high-level monk can Tumble over, under, around, and through any wizard's defensive line with ease, landing a Stunning strike that'll let the rest of the party clear up the minions in safety. If he's got Spring Attack and is within about 30 feet, he can Stun the evil wizard and be back where he started from without breaking a sweat. Or a rogue can tumble back there and KILL the spellcaster. Oh, and the monk can only tumble once a turn, for a 20' stretch. Getting back to where he started is going to be a *****. Originally posted by sanishiver Monks typically aren't power-characters, but they can be effective in disabling strikes against soft-but-protected targets (wizards behind a line), or at harrying because of their great ranged survivability. Sadly, it's easy to make a character good at doing those things. Killing low-AC, low-HP foes or having high AC are hardly limited to the monk, and certainly not worth 3/4 BAB and low damage. Using only core, it's very easy to make a character who can tumble through the lines, kill soft targets, and tumble back, doing so as well as a monk could. Unfortunately, that character can do OTHER things, something the monk can't, and that character STILL can't deal with a high-level spellcaster, just like a monk still can't.
A Man In Black 11-10-03, 01:48 AM	Originally posted by Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge The monk hides, and the wizard flies up. Neither can see each other, so the Wiz creates a Tenser's Floating Disk (yes, I use this spell, it has come in very handy) and floats to the center of the arena, 50'x50'x50'. He prepares True Seeing to his empty spell slot, which takes several minutes. In the meanwhile, the monk, who has Boots of Striding and Springing, equips his Ring of Jump, and positions himself underneath the wizard. While the wiz prepares his spell, the monk leaps up, and begins a grapple. The Disk can support both of them, easily (2000 lbs), so they grapple right there. This is why wizards have to worry the most about monks: they can use their unarmed strikes while grappling. This means the Wiz risks taking BIG damage if the monk hits. No, the wizard teleports home. He casts whatever spells he likes to prepare, and drinks whatever potions he likes. Then he teleports back to the arena, with any number of spells active, plus a balor or two bound to his will with Planar Binding. The monk...twiddles his thumbs until a pair of balors teleport back and eat him alive. If the wizard is worried about hide scores, it's a fiendish red dragon, instead. There's no such thing as hiding from blindsight. At level 20, spellcasters WIN.
ManTimeForgot 11-10-03, 02:30 AM	Nice initial post man in black. A nice post which has nothing to do with the topic. I congratulate you on subtley...erm note subtley getting in a bunch of anti-monk statements into a thread that isn't about monk compared to other class. On your next post congratulations on stating just how magic is more powerful than fighting in D&D. Shapechanging into a dragon kills any class. Astral projection kills any class. Wanna bring up awaken cheese while we are discussing how magic casters can hose monks? Oh wait is that a "magic casters can hose any class" statement I just typed. I think it is. So lets get back to the topic at hand. How does a monk present a challenge to a spellcaster? By being resistant to magic. In answering this question does the "rest of the party" matter at all? No, because it is about the monk not the rest of the party. Can a spellcaster totally hose people through cheese? Sure. Getting infinite wishes through gate cheese certainly makes being a monk kinda irrelevant in power comparisons. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-10-03, 03:18 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black Most of the flying will be done with Wings of Flying or Potions of Flight, since they actually let you fly directly up. Anyone with Flight can fly circles around ANY character with Airwalk. Except a high-level monk. Fly can ascend at 30 ft/rnd. Airwalk + 80' movement (15th lvl) can ascend at 40' x 45 degrees, or 30 vertical ft/rnd. Accordingly, a high-level monk with Airwalk has the same vertical climb rate as a Flying character, but a better horizontal rate. Moreover, the monk can completely ignore flying maneuverability, and can Run, making his maximum speed 2-3 times that of a Fly spell. Oddly, though, while Airwalking up or down is considered like going up or down a hill, you can't go down any faster than you can go up. One wonders if you can voluntarily fall for a distance while Airwalking (since you can basically choose which air you find solid), raising your descent rate at the cost of a hard landing (which monks can deal with pretty well). A druid with Stunning Fist is SCARY, a fighter with Stunning Fight and a Monk's Belt gets as much benefit from Wis as a monk does. Arguable. The description says "If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus." The first sentence is unclear (the AC of a 5th-level monk? How about Bob The Clumbsy 5th-level Monk With AC 7? Do I suddenly have his AC, regardless of my +5 full plate?), but is clarified by the second sentence's reference to "this AC bonus" - a 5th-level monk gains a +1 AC bonus, which is, in context, (IMHO) clearly what's being referred to. Note that the Wis-to-AC ability does not come from any monk levels, but from having the Monk class, and is referred to separately in the monk class description of "AC Bonus". Moreover, the fighter would have to give up using armour and shield; since he doesn't get the higher-level bonuses to AC, he'll need quite a spiffy Wis to make up for losing the AC from a +5 large shield and +5 mithril breastplate. Add to that his much-lowered number of Stunning Fists (4-5 vs. 16 or so), and the +1 enchantment on his weapon he'll need to waste in order to use those Stuns (where getting +1 extra enhancement would give him +10% damage per round), and it's questionable why a fighter would want to spend two feats to do this, much less lower his primary abilities to pump up his Wisdom. As an aside, how many people would allow the monk to hold a sponge of Nasty Contact Poison in one hand in order to cause an additional save-vs-poison on his attacks with that hand? Since high-level monks are immune to poison, there's not too much downside beyond having to do your own laundry. Or the exceedingly cheap potions of see invisible to do the latter. True - you'll note I mentioned those as something every high-level character should have. However, they take an action to use, and you've got to know something's there before you bother drinking one. Listen +25 means you can typically get advance warning; without knowing where to look, all the vision-enhancers in the world won't help. They can tank at all levels. A monk cannot. True. However, a fighter, barbarian, druid, paladin, cleric, and ranger can all tank effectively, making that dismally fail the "what can they do _uniquely_???" test you'd set for monks. Which was rather my point. Fighters and barbarians can't do anything totally unique. Yet they can still do useful things. Similarly, whether or not monks can do anything totally unique is largely irrelevant to whether or not they can do useful things. You're trying to set those up as the same question, but they're really, really not. Or a rogue can tumble back there and KILL the spellcaster. How? A wizard in the back ranks isn't going to be flanked, so the rogue can only sneak attack once, on the first round, if he wins initiative. And, since he'll lack the speed to get back, he'll be hammered into paste by the entire enemy squad after delivering his one attack for 45 points of won't-stop-the-meteor-swarm-even-if-it-hits damage. Oh, and the monk can only tumble once a turn, for a 20' stretch. Getting back to where he started is going to be a *****. 3.5 Tumble skill says nothing about either limits on distance or limits on number of times per round, at least in the SRD (and I don't recall it in the PHB). It just says "tumble as part of normal movement". ('sides, even if that were true, the monk could just move away in a non-blocked direction; he's the only one with enough movement to avoid being jumped on by every enemy after doing this.) Using only core, it's very easy to make a character who can tumble through the lines, kill soft targets, and tumble back, doing so as well as a monk could. Unfortunately, that character can do OTHER things, something the monk can't, and that character STILL can't deal with a high-level spellcaster, just like a monk still can't. Not really. Using core, you can make a character who can tumble through lines, but probably lacks the speed to get away again, and will be jumped on by every enemy at once. That's usually bad. Using core, the ways to instantly incapacitate an enemy are removing all their hp (highly unlikely from a single tumbling attack at high levels without extreme luck), using a spell (although Spell Turning, Spell Resistance, and the like can mess that up), grappling (which would be suicide alone in the enemy ranks, and fails against Freedom of Movement), and something like Stunning Fist - mere damage will not stop the Spell of Biggie-Size Doom. Other classes which might have a powerful Stun (druid, cleric) are likely to lack the speed and mobility to penetrate defensive lines. Other classes which can penetrate defensive lines (rogue) are not likely to have a powerful Stun, or the speed to escape getting swarmed. Moreover, other classes are usually also easier for a BBEG wizard to _stop_ than a monk; while he can Dominate a rogue or fighter to stop them from interfering and Polymorph a wizard to stop him from doing the same back, there's no easy way for him to prevent a monk from attacking. Faced with SR and very high saves, the BBEG wizard is largely relying on minions to protect him from the monk, since his own abilities - his spells - can't reliably protect him. That's something monks can do well - they can force an enemy wizard onto the defensive. With an attack that can render him useless (high-DC Stun), the BBEG wizard can't afford to ignore the monk - when you're the main firepower on Evil Team, losing your actions for a round is devastating, and losing them for 70% of rounds is death. With all those defenses, the BBEG wizard can't reliably handle the monk himself - while he can eventually break the defenses, wasting that much time on a single PC will allow the rest of the party to crush the rest of the encounter. With all that mobility, the BBEG wizard can't rely on minions to stop the monk's attack - speed and Tumble means the monk's a danger anywhere within about 60 feet. Few classes have all three of these ingredients; the monk does. This, I suggest, is how the monk makes BBEG wizards worry, by this combination. The presence of a monk nearby means the BBEG wizard is in constant danger of losing his actions, but he can neither handle the threat himself nor rely on others to do it for him.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-10-03, 04:24 AM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P If I was a high-level wizard? Shi'... I'm not a big fan of arena combat Neither am I, so that's not what I asked for, per se. There were three meta-scenarios: 1) Monk attacks wizard 2) Wizard attacks monk 3) Wizard and monk are stalking each other, neither one willing to leave for a long time and convert to #1 or #2 (perhaps the monk's trying to kill the BBEG wizard before he invokes The Nebulous Doom, but the wizard's fortress defenses have tipped him off) I expect #1 and #2 to be very dangerous for their respective targets, since that's the way the game seems written. A monk sneaking up invisibly and landing Quivering Palm (probable kill instantly) and Stunning Fist (probable incapacitation for full-round smashing goodness) appears to make #1 unhappy for the wizard, for example. I'd like to see reasons why this is unlikely to work (for example, the monk should probably chug a Truestrike potion in case a Moment of Prescience is active), as well as reasonable (non-cheesy) core approaches to #2 and #3. As an aside, it's starting to look like a 1/day Extended Moment of Prescience device might be a new must-have for high-level characters. In many ways, it gives you a chance to ignore and respond to an ambush. First, I'd polymorph any object some stone golems out of statues. Interesting, but nothing says they pay any attention to your commands. Then I'd gate or planar bind some big bad-ass monster and have him auto-fail a save for magic jar. "unreasonable demands are never agreed to" (Planar Binding) "the service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favour or reward" (Gate) Neither of these will work. Maybe make a simacrulum out of myself beforehand, and have the simacrulums cast magic jar into some mooks. At 1000xp each, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish - there's cheaper ways to get mooks. Or create undead some undead flesh puppets, being careful to secure them beforehand. Great, but you can't Charm Monster anything you create (they're undead - all undead are immune to mind effects). All this does is give you undead to bargain with, much like Planar Binding gives you Outsiders to bargain with. Or I could just quicken some silent images, and cast those in addition to my regular spells. The monk needs to spend a standard action or an attack attack to interact and thus get a save against it Why's that? If there's a string of 10 Silent Images of poles in a row, I can run along and pass my arm through each one without expending a standard action. Or he may not have to, considering that Silent Image has a duration of Concentration. Moreover, the monk could just flee, costing you the element of surprise and pushing this into a #3 situation. A robe of the archmage, greater spell penetration, and an orange ioun stone is vital for this, as it will reduce the chance of an equal-level monk making the SR roll at... 15%. True; however, is that 100,000gp and 2 feats that many casters are going to spend? Highly focussed builds are much less interesting than reasonable and typical ones. Or cast Astral Projection from the safety of home and do this without worrying if somehow the plans fail. True; however, that (a) alerts the monk to your intentions, and (b) is cheesy. Cheesy things are not interesting for generalizations, and tend to get slapped with absurdly picky readings of the rules, such as "it doesn't specify that the new physical body and equipment you form on leaving the Astral Plane is the same as your original body and equipment, or even magical at all" and "it says you can travel to other planes from the Astral, meaning other than the Prime". Regardless of how you rule on picky interpretations like those, abusing rules is not at all useful when trying to understand classes in general. Accordingly, you've pointed out that a wizard can expend significant resources to lower the monk's SR (which is true, although probably only modestly common). Other than that, you've suggested "gather monsters as temporary allies" and "zap the monk". Neither one's likely to result in a quick kill, meaning there's a good chance the monk will escape and the ambush will fail, transitioning into a monk-and-wizard-stalking scenario.
wdarkk 11-10-03, 05:41 AM	If you're using non-core, there's an Avalanche spell in MoF - no save vs damage, 1d4/level level 9 spell. Greater Metamagic Rod it and it's 80+10d4 damage. My prefered weapon vs ubercheese like the void incarnate, let alone a monk. Empowered Maximized Ice Storm works too, but not as well. And if you're using items, screw the Stone. Gimme a cloak of permanent Freedom of Movement.
capt. narcissist 11-10-03, 09:17 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk If you're using non-core, there's an Avalanche spell in MoF - no save vs damage, 1d4/level level 9 spell. Greater Metamagic Rod it and it's 80+10d4 damage. My prefered weapon vs ubercheese like the void incarnate, let alone a monk. Empowered Maximized Ice Storm works too, but not as well. And if you're using items, screw the Stone. Gimme a cloak of permanent Freedom of Movement. I wouldnt even start the non-core. this opens up a whole differant can of worms for both sides and will eventually lead to tons of 2nd and 3rd party supplement discussions.
Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge 11-10-03, 01:19 PM	The monk...twiddles his thumbs until a pair of balors teleport back and eat him alive. Little problem with this... Balors are quite tough, and evil. A wizard at lvl20, with any PrC you want to give him that he can get, has no chance alone against one, let alone two. Then, you have to deal with the greatswords they wield... in one hand... magical abilities, SR, DR... A lvl20 character could spend every copper they own, and they still wouldn't have something a balor would both want, and give enough value to both spare the wizard's life, and aid him.
Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge 11-10-03, 01:20 PM	The monk...twiddles his thumbs until a pair of balors teleport back and eat him alive. Little problem with this... Balors are quite tough, and evil. A wizard at lvl20, with any PrC you want to give him that he can get, has no chance alone against one, let alone two. Then, you have to deal with the greatswords they wield... in one hand... magical abilities, SR, DR... A lvl20 character could spend every copper they own, and they still wouldn't have something a balor would both want, and give enough value to both spare the wizard's life, and aid him.
sanishiver 11-10-03, 01:49 PM	Hey MIB, I think you misquoted me. The last half of your first post has me saying a bunch of stuff that I did not. :whatsthis
JoeX 11-10-03, 01:52 PM	Originally posted by Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge Little problem with this... Balors are quite tough, and evil. A wizard at lvl20, with any PrC you want to give him that he can get, has no chance alone against one, let alone two. Then, you have to deal with the greatswords they wield... in one hand... magical abilities, SR, DR... A lvl20 character could spend every copper they own, and they still wouldn't have something a balor would both want, and give enough value to both spare the wizard's life, and aid him. litle problem here .. if the wiz GATE the Balor they are bound to follow his wishes
mad mac 11-10-03, 02:25 PM	I don't think it's very productive to focus on the more obscene abuses of wizardly might. Everyone knows the gate is bunk, Astral projection is abusable, and spell x in supplement z is the friggen bomb. Nor is it very important that a multi-classed character with levels in 7 different Prc's could kick any single classed character to the moon. At that point, you are essentially playing a very different game. Furthermore, arena battles always come down to tatics and equipment. The character with the spell or item the other guy wasn't prepared for wins. Not really exciting. Anyhow, I think the monk tends to be better off against a wizard than most fighter types. Obviously, it's not completely one sided, but who wants to play D&D like an RTS? "Ah crud, we got a bard bolstering the eastern flank, repeat, pretty-boy moving in fast" "We hear you, sending unholy-fiendish, music hating locathah barbarian to counter" "Heh, heh, that always works" *chuckle* "Yeah"
Monokip 11-10-03, 05:12 PM	Heh. That's awesome, I'm gonna convince my group to get walkie-talkies... "Big thingie, three o'clock! Initiate move twentyseven B!" "Acknowledged! Moving in..." :P
Quickbow 11-10-03, 05:37 PM	I think it boils down to the monk's ability to tumble up beside the wizard, grapple him and reduce his ability to cast most of his spells while slowing strangling the life force from him.
strockrow 11-10-03, 09:00 PM	Alot of it depends on if you use the book of vile darkness or not. Now I know what you're thinking "what does the book of vile darkness have to do with anything?" Well, in that book there are two spells, resonating resistance and abyssal might. One (abyssal) gives +2, among other things, to SR. The second, however, does so much more. This fifth level spell forces casters to roll twice against SR. HA! There also a vile feat that boosts SR by 2. Maybe not for your run of the mill good monk, but there's nothing particularily vile about the feat, so it could be easily changed. The Wiz could Mordakeins disjunction the whole thing, but then he'd have to prepare it, something for which he would most likely opt for things like meteor swarmor or gate or something. And if you mention having All these feats and items to lower SR, then you should also mention a monk "Mage slayer" prestige class. Anything can beat something if it is built to beat that thing.
Druid Roxors 11-10-03, 09:40 PM	Actually I can give you reasons why monks should fear casters. (not that it helps, but creates debate) Huge druid wildshape + improved grapple + (free) improved grab + Animal growth. OR Fire seeds (no SR no Save) OR shapechange Forcecage + Forcecage (because he used teleport) + Tons of summons. Clerics domains.. Timestop, horrid wilting, teleportation, fireseeds....
A Man In Black 11-11-03, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by strockrow Alot of it depends on if you use the book of vile darkness or not. Now I know what you're thinking "what does the book of vile darkness have to do with anything?" Well, in that book there are two spells, resonating resistance and abyssal might. One (abyssal) gives +2, among other things, to SR. The second, however, does so much more. This fifth level spell forces casters to roll twice against SR. HA! You mean, perhaps, Abyssal Might, a spell that can only be cast by demons, or Resonating Resistance, a personal-range spell that can only be cast by a fiendish caster? Right. Those are, you know, really unbalancing this discussion of why wizards should or should not fear monks.
urloki 11-12-03, 11:41 AM	A note about the freedom of movement spell: From the SRD: Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 So the wizard doesn't get this spell. I personally think mirror image is a pretty good defense against a lot of what the monk brings.
Lago AM3P 11-12-03, 04:53 PM	Interesting, but nothing says they pay any attention to your commands. Did I say statues? I meant a cadre of loyal, brainless followers. This pretty much wins the battle right here, as the limit to amount of golems or whatever is only limited by either your party's primary spellcaster throwing out a dispel magic or your DM hitting you over the head with a rulesbook. "unreasonable demands are never agreed to" (Planar Binding) "the service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favour or reward" (Gate) Neither of these will work. You don't really make any demands. The whole point of these spells is to bring the monster into your presence into a state where he won't immediately try to kill you, and then spring some new effect on it. If you want to 'seal the deal', you could throw up walls of force or stone or whatever. At 1000xp each, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish - there's cheaper ways to get mooks. I'm talking about things like making duplicate solars or pit fiends, which the spell still stupidly allows you to make (at admittedly no small cost). Why's that? If there's a string of 10 Silent Images of poles in a row, I can run along and pass my arm through each one without expending a standard action. Or he may not have to, considering that Silent Image has a duration of Concentration. Moreover, the monk could just flee, costing you the element of surprise and pushing this into a #3 situation. Illusions don't work like that, unfortunately. You have to spend a standard action at the very least 'carefully studying' EACH illusion. One action does not go through several. Since you've used up your attack action, all you can really do is move, whereupon the wizard follows up with another quickened silent image. Again, the only real defense for this is to play in a team game, where a wizard doing this will get promptly smacked down for wasting his time; it's why I don't approve of arena fights. Regardless, most people seem to send monks against primary spellcasters (always wizards, I've NEVER seen a monk duke it out successfully with a high-level cleric or a druid) the exact same way. Use their speed to get in close and wail on the enemy. Of course, since primary spellcasters can and do fly, along with everyone else, and they fly at the same speed, all that leaves are monks superior saving throws and improved evasion. Whereupon you can just get a drow paladin or whatever. I expect #1 and #2 to be very dangerous for their respective targets, since that's the way the game seems written. A monk sneaking up invisibly and landing Quivering Palm (probable kill instantly) and Stunning Fist (probable incapacitation for full-round smashing goodness) appears to make #1 unhappy for the wizard, for example. I'd like to see reasons why this is unlikely to work (for example, the monk should probably chug a Truestrike potion in case a Moment of Prescience is active), as well as reasonable (non-cheesy) core approaches to #2 and #3. But this is really no different from a fighter-type moving at high speed and beating the spoon out of the wizard. He doesn't even really need anything cool, just to land an improved trip (or a regular trip) and it's basically curtains for the poor wizard, as few MONSTERS withstand more than a couple of attacks from a high-level fighter-type. Since we're evaluating a character (a monk) who basically does the same thing that any fighter-type can do (rush in real fast and lay the big hurt before the wizard gets his groove on), only that they're doing it considerably worse in all categories except for, um, saves. So, what DOES a wizard (notice how I'm moving away from primary caster here :rolleyes:) have to fear more from a monk exclusively than any other character designed to rush in as fast as possible and lay the smack down?
Gold Dragon Of The Black Edge 11-13-03, 01:33 AM	Here's a simple and completely silly solution. Monk grabs Wiz. and grapples. Meanwhile, on the front of whatever shirt he's wearing, he has a lightly sewn-on pocket, one that'll break away with more than, say, a pound of weight on it. Behind it, a Quall's Feather Token (Anchor). He grapples the Wiz., gets a pin, and then speaks the command word... SPLAT. I think an anchor designed to moor large vessles will get a Wiz. Another interesting thought based on this: Archer-style build, with arrows that have these QFT (Anchor)'s on them... Hit, and then speak the command word... RIPPP... For larger prey, use a QFT (Tree) on the tip of that arrow!:D
wdarkk 11-13-03, 01:38 AM	About Gate: It says that the creature will fight for you in one battle without payment. Let's assume both characters are level 20. I still think that automatic metamagic rods can spam out the monk with empowered maximized (maybe even quickened) meteor swarms cast while wearing a permanent true strike item and shapechanged into a Choker. 3 maxed, empowered meteor swarms in one round might get the monk to feel it. Particularly if it's a sorcerer or Red Wizard, who would have more Meteor Swarms. The Monk's AC is 10+9(assuming 28 Wis)+4+4(Monk's Belt)=27. The Wizard has an attack bonus of 10(BAB)+3(assuming 16 Dex)=13 without a TS item, and needs a 14 or better to hit the Monk (7/20 chance). With the TS item, it becomes "everything but one". If you don't want to use permanent TS items, assume an item which lets you use TS once per day and that one of the meteors auto-hits. If 1/3 (by coincidence 7/21, slightly less than the wizard's chance of hitting per meteor) of the meteors hit, Monk=Dead. Even only 2 meteors hitting could kill the monk (assuming average damage and average HP and 18 Con, the monk would have 4HP left). That's not even taking into account meteors the monk must save vs. 12 saving throws vs DC 10+9+9(assuming 28 INT)+5(Spell Power)+2(Spell Focus and Greater SF)=30 made at 12+3(assuming again 16 dex)=15 requires 15 or better (6/20). A Red Wizard with Greater Spell Penetration would have a +9 bonus to the caster level check, and would never fail SR checks vs the Monk's 30 SR. Oh, and Magic Circle against Law ensures the Wizard gets to go first. So a prepared Red Wizard 10/Evoker 10 could kill a Monk in one round, improved evasion be hanged. Archmages could do it too. It's too bad Persistent Spell isn't core. You could use that and time stop to really, really screw the monk via massive Ice Storm stacking. Finally, as soon as Epic Levels start, the monk is screwed due to Slay Spam (imagine a spell that even if you save will still give you a bunch of negative levels, or just outright kill you at higher levels).
capt. narcissist 11-13-03, 08:34 AM	and they say Mages got a nerf:nonono: thing is the tactics people are using with huge empowered spells and gateing in epic creatures can crush just about any melee class. The Monk is the least of the crushed when it comes to magic. SR, evasion, Good saves and tumble is more then enough over other warrior classes for battling magic. as for Gate. you better kill that Solar when your done. In my game if you gate them just to force them to submit flesh so a duplicate of them can be used at your selfish expense then prepared to be destroyed by Celestial wrath.
split infinitude 11-13-03, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by urloki A note about the freedom of movement spell: From the SRD: Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 So the wizard doesn't get this spell. I personally think mirror image is a pretty good defense against a lot of what the monk brings. Ltd Wish . . .
Solidcobra 11-13-03, 03:10 PM	WHY in the name of pelor/loth/nerull/vecna/other god would mirror image and displace work on a monk? What are "goggles of true seeing+see invisibility"? They are the first part of the anti-cheapasswizard set The second one is a Cloak of Resistance Also, a pair of underwear of airwalk would be nice..... (Part three of the set) Part four? Oh, a little something i would like to call a stone of Discern Location (1/day) Part 5: X of teleport (2/day) Part 6: Stone of improved invisibility (1/day) There, now let's see how the puny wizard likes that! Oooh, the cheap fragger teleported away, at the moment of his defeat.... technically he lost, but the monk wants to pwnage him to hades anyway, so discern location, teleport, improved invisibility, make him eat that fort save vs. death, and then let him eat the fort save vs. stun, and that 5d20+25+STR mod x 5 OOhhh... no more cheap fraggin' wizard! Sucker...... The thing is: In a straight fight, the wizard looses if he teleports away, since he fled, if it ain't a duel to the death and the wizard teleports away (as the puny and pathetic loser he is) then the anti-wizard set above should help considerably......
Lago AM3P 11-13-03, 04:09 PM	I'd like to steer away from any discussion of homemade items in the rules, since you need explicit DM permission to create new items in almost all cases, and what a DM will allow in the campaign is really subjective. I'd also like to steer away from the silly 'if you teleport, you lose' caveat, as it's been my experience that you're REALLY screwed if a wizard decides to teleport away and come back when you least expect it with buffs and allies.
JoeX 11-13-03, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Solidcobra The thing is: In a straight fight, the wizard looses if he teleports away, since he fled, if it ain't a duel to the death and the wizard teleports away (as the puny and pathetic loser he is) then the anti-wizard set above should help considerably...... And an anti-monk set will easily counter it. Like a ring of mind blank who will screw bad the monk discern location stone.
Kolo 11-13-03, 05:42 PM	Just a quick hop in and out; Although monks aren't the end-all perfect anti-mage class, they're certainly better at attacking and disabling mages than the other melee classes. a LOT better, since he has the options to Stun (against a wizzy's and sorc's low fort save), use Quivering palm, grapple, resists magic, has high saves, can dimension door himself, can jump really high (useful in roomy buildings where the spellcaster can't simply fly away) and is incredibly fast- and that's not including the various magic items he very likely has, as well as skills. He's not perfect at killing mages, but if he was it would just be plain silly, not to mention broken. Actually, he's VERY good against the other spellcasters too, like sorcerers and clerics. (druids can wildshape, which ruins the grapple part at least...) I've also never seen any situation in which a monk was completely useless. The way my friend plays monks is that he always has something up his Gi, and if not he still does something- it just might work, after all. The primary spellcasters don't have a lot to FEAR per se from the monk, but he's definetly gonna cause them some wild headaches and distract them for the rest of the party to do their thing. And in D&D, that's what really counts.
wdarkk 11-13-03, 06:47 PM	Obviously, PCs are much more dangerous than NPCs of the appropriate level because they have a party backing them, more wealth, and the PC is much more likely to min/max. I think we've shown that if either preps for the other, they can win.
Dunelord 11-14-03, 04:55 PM	Has anyone ever seen a summon monster spell used to drop something on a monk?
Gondor 11-14-03, 07:20 PM	Every time I read one of these discussions, I can't help but wonder why the wizard is the smart one and the [insert compared class here] is always the dupe. If you are at a high level, it is far more important to be smart than to be fast, or powerful, or whatever. There is absolutely no reason that the monk can't dupe or trap the wizard and then kill him. The same can be said for any class, actually, though this thread is about monks. As an example: Have you ever looked at the stats of Drizz't DoUrden in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting? He is the most pathetic melee character I have ever seen at that level. His strength is 13. But, his intelligence, wisdom, and charisma are very high. This shows what is needed at high levels: Smart play. So, in response to the original question: The Monk presents a threat in the same way everyone else can: in the right situation, they can defeat a spellcaster. The key is creating this situation. This part requires skill. The Monk has a few other advantages that make creating this situation easier (than for a fighter, for example), such as speed, stunning attack, resistance, etc. However, the monk must still ultimately create a situation where the wizard is less effective. Of course, the wizard is trying to do the same thing... But that's why it's fun.
Dunelord 11-16-03, 12:18 AM	I would say the main reason a high level caster should fear a monk is that they can have Improved Grapple, and Quivering palm. A monk can proably make it to the caster. and if they can get them in a grapple it's unlikely they will get any other spells off. At that point it shouldn't be to hard to just beat them to death, or use Quivering palm on them.
Kem 11-16-03, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black The monk...twiddles his thumbs until a pair of balors teleport back and eat him alive. 1st Rule of Playing against yourself is assume that both sides have equal intelligence. You, however, believe that the monk will be an idiot and... Twiddle his thumbs?
wdarkk 11-16-03, 01:05 AM	I think we've proved that either can get a 1 round kill on the other. That's really all you can prove.
mean_liar 11-16-03, 11:18 AM	I think it was also proved that nothing substantial was elucidated besides the fact that an infinite number of wizards casting an infinite number of spells can indeed eventually kill a monk.
Don't Squeeze the Smitty 11-16-03, 11:54 AM	How about the DM sets up the adventure so the wizard has to save the princess in one 24 hour period. The wizard then goes through a bunch of encounters and when he finally confronts the monk who kidnapped the princess, the poor mage only has a magic missle spell left. The monk then gives the wizard a wedgie and makes him eat some dog poo. :P
Xavim 11-16-03, 03:42 PM	As opposed to the monk that arrives to combat the evil wizard that kidnapped the princess while only having 10hp left and suffering from poison and level drain? Seriously, if either class is played right it will be an interesting fight. conditions favour the wizard because magic is just that good. A wizard has a contingency DDoor that puts him 500 ft behind his attacker and fire's off his crazyness at monk. At 20th you can bet there will be a time stop, delayed blast fireball closerange prismatic sphere comb going off. I honestly think that the monk needs to play REALLY well. A straight up fight with a 20th level wizard is NEVER a good idea. Especially since Protection from evil can keep 'em from ever touching our wizard.
JoeX 11-16-03, 05:34 PM	Originally posted by Gondor However, the monk must still ultimately create a situation where the wizard is less effective. Of course, the wizard is trying to do the same thing... But that's why it's fun. Except a wiz in a bad situation can always use teleport to retreat while for the monk things are not so easy.
Mortoth 11-16-03, 08:52 PM	No chance will the monk have any shot at taking out a wizzy that has 9th lvl spells.... Xavim made a few good points! Moment of prescience will make sure the monk fails his first attack an the the wizard can play with him any way he see's fit.....
Druid Roxors 11-17-03, 02:42 AM	Round 1: Moment of Prescience Saves the wizard Round 2: Wizard casts Forcecage on the monk ---> Monk Escpes with Dimension Door Round 3: Wizard casts Forcecage again ---> Monk dies within the windowless (airless) cell within the next 40 hours.
Xavim 11-17-03, 02:46 AM	Then there's always prismatic sphere. Go ahead monky boy, do something. I dare ya. Gonna make 7 SR checks? I doubt it!
Druid Roxors 11-17-03, 02:55 AM	Remember etheiralness... monks can go throught the short lived sphere
Xavim 11-17-03, 03:12 AM	umm no they can't. Nothing can go through the sphere. Check the description. Violet: Energy field destroys all objects and effects. Thus ethreal boy's ethrealness is destroyed. And now has to worry about the 7 incoming caster level checks.
ManTimeForgot 11-17-03, 04:52 AM	"Destroys all objects and effects." Period. That is all there is to it. It does not stop anything. Anyone can walk through a prismatic wall normally. They suffer a huge chance of dying and sent to another dimension or whatever. But nothing stops a person from just walking through a prismatic wall. No etherealness necessary. If prismatic wall were solid how could a monster "use its spell resistance" to pierce the wall? The answer is the prismatic wall is not solid. Cape of mountebank helps in avoiding the force cage for a second time. (Dimension door once per day iirc.) And the sum of things is. The monk is better at combatting spell casters than other fighter types. This does not change the fact that magic in D&D is far too powerful for how common it is. Yes a 20th level wizard is a force to be reckoned with. A 20th level monk is a better opponent than a 20th level fighter hands down though. And realistically people why does this debate have to center around 20th level and 20th level only. The monk is a solid anti-mage character in early game. High saving throws plus evasion and stunning attack ensures that the monk can put down low level wizards no problem in most cases. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Xavim 11-17-03, 06:00 AM	Yeah good point. By nothing I meant no spells, powers, etc. Basically anything that isn't a creature. And I agree with the monk at lower level being an extremely effective anti-caster. It just makes sense.
wdarkk 11-17-03, 06:24 AM	Well, Arcane Casters are weaker at 1st level, so EVERYTHING's better against them.
ManTimeForgot 11-17-03, 06:57 AM	Not the point Wdarkk. The monk at level one has multiple advantages which could aid him in defeating a wizard type. Even at 7th level the advantages have continued to mount. It isn't until the wizard starts to get 6th and 7th level spells that the monk starts to lose his clear cut advantage over a wizard in opposed combat, and even then that is about when the monk starts gets his spell resistance. So yes a fighter stands a good chance of beating a wizard at level 1. The point here is that the monk stands a much better chance than the fighter does. Speed and high will save says it all when talking about fighters. That is to say: things fighters don't have. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Xavim 11-17-03, 07:06 AM	You read this thread and tell me that they're weaker. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114687
capt. narcissist 11-17-03, 08:48 AM	Round 3: Wizard casts Forcecage again ---> Monk dies within the windowless (airless) cell within the next 40 hours. he would be able to dimension door again in 24? what if he dimension dorred where the wizard couldnt see him? or is this the a typical "battle in an open field" example.
JoeX 11-17-03, 11:59 AM	Originally posted by capt. narcissist what if he dimension dorred where the wizard couldnt see him? or is this the a typical "battle in an open field" example. like behind an obstacle I suppose ? The Wiz will cast an invisibility type spell to hide himself from the monk.
capt. narcissist 11-17-03, 01:20 PM	that or into the next room, toward the stable, out of the tavern,castle, inn etc... The Wizard could turn invisible this is true but I was just countering the no save, no SR Forcecage trick of death.
Leonard da Quirm 11-17-03, 02:46 PM	"Can anyone give me a good reason why primary spellcasters should fear monks?" Because if one were to hit you, it would probably hurt? Is this a trick question?
Luminous Crayon 11-17-03, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Leonard da Quirm Because if one were to hit you, it would probably hurt? Is this a trick question? I want your autograph.
Druid Roxors 11-17-03, 06:21 PM	Originally posted by capt. narcissist he would be able to dimension door again in 24? what if he dimension dorred where the wizard couldnt see him? or is this the a typical "battle in an open field" example. 24 hours without air... I think 20 minutes is more than enough. He would be dead long before he can use DD again. If he dimensiondoor's far away you win, he was the one on the offensive. Maybe you want to really win, in that case... scry, teleport, forcecage.
Druid Roxors 11-17-03, 06:26 PM	By the way, prismatic wall/sphere does not extend to the etherial plane, because of that, a monk can just escape from it.
Rogue1stclass 11-17-03, 06:57 PM	Forcecage isn't as flawless as you think. It has a Range of 125ft at 20th level. At that level, a Monk can Charge 180ft without anything external enhancing his speed. Even he gets careless and gets trapped once, Abundant Step has a Range of 800ft at 20th. Monk 20 v. Wizard 20 is a much harder fight than people seem to think, even naked.
Xavim 11-17-03, 07:24 PM	I'd say it does since it stops all effects. And ethrealness is an effect. Thus the monk couldn't go ethreal, pass through the sphere and then attack our mage on the inside with no ill effects when he goes material.
DigitalSoul 11-18-03, 01:36 AM	Prismatic Sphere/Wall isn't a force effect so the effect doesn't cross into the EP.
JoeX 11-18-03, 07:45 AM	Originally posted by Rogue1stclass Forcecage isn't as flawless as you think. It has a Range of 125ft at 20th level. At that level, a Monk can Charge 180ft without anything external enhancing his speed. Even he gets careless and gets trapped once, Abundant Step has a Range of 800ft at 20th. If the Wiz wins the initiative he could simply ready an action against the charging monk. And you cannot act after using Abundant Step until next round so a monk would let himself open to at least one force cage spell