can i change into an air weird with druid wilshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can i change into an air weird with druid wilshape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChaozWarior
05-16-04, 09:29 AM hi

in druids wild shape 3.5 it says i can take the form of small medium large elemental (air, fire, earth, water) at 16th lvl

can i change into an air weird? it says air elemantal in there.
so i can cast spells as 17th lvl sorc.

lol
Dartanel
05-16-04, 09:47 AM No, the elemental wild shape only allows the forms of the four basic elementals in the MM. I believe there's an epic feat which allows you to choose the form of any creature with the type [elemental] though.
ChaozWarior
05-16-04, 11:15 AM where does it say only basic elementals?
it says small medium large elemental (air, earth, fire, water)
an air weird is it says large elemental (air)

why would the phb mention about gaining spell like abilities of the elementals, since the basic ones have no sp abilities.
Thorak
05-16-04, 01:56 PM A question; does the Air Weird cast spells as a 17th level sorceror as a spell-like ability, or does it just have the ability to cast? For instance; the Aboleth has an Aboleth Mage variant, that can cast as a 10th level wizard. But that's because the Aboleth has 10 levels of Wizard; it's not a spell-like or supernatural ability of the base creature.
ChaozWarior
05-17-04, 01:57 AM no they don't have class levels..
and oops it was 18th lvl sorc.
but you can only cast spells from the Air, Travel, Earth, Destruction, Fire, Sun, Water and Healing Domains.
but the Druid can do this at 16th lvl..

Obscuring mist, Wind wall, Gaseous Form, Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Control Weather, Whirlwind, Elemental Swarm,
Inflict Light Wounds (mass), Shatter, Contagion, Inflict Critical Wounds, Harm, Disintigrate, Earthquake, Implosion,
Magic Stone, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Shape, Spike Stones, Wall of Stone, Stoneskin, Iron Body,
Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Resist Energy, Wall of FIre, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Fire Strom, Incendiary Cloud,
Cure Wounds (any), Heal (mass) , Regenerate,
Endure Elements, Heat Metal, Searing Light, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Prismatic Sphere
Longstrider, Locate Object, Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Find the Path, Greater Teleport, Phase Door, Astral Projection,
Fog Cloud, Water Breathing, Control Water, Ice STrom, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, Horrid WIlting

+ analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing and vision, at will.
SmallPumpkinMan
05-17-04, 03:19 AM It's "as polymorph".
Polymorph doesn't give you spellcasting.
Gilhaelith
05-17-04, 03:26 AM Originally posted by SmallPumpkinMan
It's "as polymorph".
Polymorph doesn't give you spellcasting.

For normal wild shape you follow the polymorph rules, but not for elemental shaping.

Quote for the SRD:
"At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and pell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type."

EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms.
SmallPumpkinMan
05-17-04, 03:53 AM Originally posted by Gilhaelith
For normal wild shape you follow the polymorph rules, but not for elemental shaping.

Quote for the SRD:
"At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and pell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type."

EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms.

spell-like is different to spellcasting.

eg, you polymorph to turn yourself into a Solar (I know a solar has too many HD, I just can't think of another example off the top of my head.) you get it's constant magic circle vs evil and umn, whatever other spell-like's it gets, but you can't cast as a 20th lvl Cleric.
bitnine
05-17-04, 04:21 AM Originally posted by Gilhaelith
EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms. If you take the "small, medium, and large" to mean sizes instead of the specific types of elementals in the elemental entry of the DMG, then that opens up a whole lot of neat stuff you can do, particularly given templates that you can slap on to varied critters to make 'em typed elementals.
Gilhaelith
05-17-04, 04:41 AM Originally posted by SmallPumpkinMan
spell-like is different to spellcasting.

I agree that's why I highlighted part of the SRD, but your (1st) agrument was that its like polymorph. In that case you wouldn't get extraord. special qualities, SU and spell-like. However as I quoted before in the case of elementals (which this threads is about) it states you DO get to use this.
Gilhaelith
05-17-04, 04:46 AM Originally posted by bitnine
If you take the "small, medium, and large" to mean sizes instead of the specific types of elementals in the elemental entry of the DMG, then that opens up a whole lot of neat stuff you can do, particularly given templates that you can slap on to varied critters to make 'em typed elementals.

A druid can only change into 'normal' elemental (Note; I don't mean mean the 4 'basic' elemental). Meaning the average stats as stated in the elemental description. Templates are not considered 'normal' elemental (or anything else).
bitnine
05-17-04, 04:53 AM Originally posted by Gilhaelith
A druid can only change into 'normal' elemental (Note; I don't mean mean the 4 'basic' elemental).Really, now? That's very interesting, as I don't myself recall any mention of the 'normal' type or non-templated restrictions in the druid's ability block or in the spell to which it refers. Perhaps I just missed it, though.

However, that's not to say that there isn't enough power to be had in reading that ability as granting the druid to turn into any creature of the elemental type with a size of small, medium, or large (and eventually huge), regardless of HD or CR/ECL. That's really quite handy in itself.
keith187
05-17-04, 07:00 AM Re-read the entries for the elemental weirds. Sure you can argue that you can change into one but first you'll need a pool of the same element that you're changing into that you can't leave.
Gilhaelith
05-17-04, 02:39 PM Read my next post.
Gilhaelith
05-17-04, 02:52 PM Originally posted by bitnine
Really, now? That's very interesting, as I don't myself recall any mention of the 'normal' type or non-templated restrictions in the druid's ability block or in the spell to which it refers. Perhaps I just missed it, though.

If your looking in the PHB 3.0 or 3.5 then its no wonder you can't find it. Its in the Masters of the Wild. On the bottom of page 10 it says "The following version of this ability (wild shape) supersedes the one presented in the Player's Handbook" refering to the 3.0 PHB although i'd say it also count for 3.5. On page 11 1 column last paragraph "The druid's new scrores and faculties are average ones for the species into which she has transformed." Considering templates aren't average for a species they fall under the same rule.

However, that's not to say that there isn't enough power to be had in reading that ability as granting the druid to turn into any creature of the elemental type with a size of small, medium, or large (and eventually huge), regardless of HD or CR/ECL. That's really quite handy in itself.

Note I never said anything about disregarding HD. "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." from the SRD also applies to elemental forms. Sorry if i wasn't clear on this before.

Re-read the entries for the elemental weirds. Sure you can argue that you can change into one but first you'll need a pool of the same element that you're changing into that you can't leave.

True, but this just an example. He could've said Belker or Magmin it doesn't change the question.
Krelios
05-17-04, 03:05 PM where does it say only basic elementals?
it says small medium large elemental (air, earth, fire, water)
an air weird is it says large elemental (air) The wording for the Druid's wildshape is somewhat vague here. There are essentially two camps on this argument, and I think I understand the reasoning for each...

1) Druids can wildshape into any creature with the Elemental type. This is because the previous ability of wildshape was to change into any creature with the animal type (and eventually the plant type). This seems logically consistent, but it makes Elemental wildshape drastically more powerful than Animal (or plant) wildshape.

OR

2) Druids can wildshape into only the "basic" elementals (i.e. water, earth, air or fire). This reasoning is based on the name. If someone says "a fire elemental," there's a common understanding of what creature that is.

Unfortunately, Wizards made the mistake of giving a creature and a type the exact same name. That means that you can literally interpret this ability either way. It also says "Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water)" in an attempt to clarify, but technically a "fire wierd" is a medium fire elemental. In the same way that a "goblin" is small humanoid.

What they need to do is either rename the creatures, or clarify the ability. As it stands, Druids don't get this ability until after a wizard could cast a spell that does the same thing, so I don't see it as a problem to allow elemental types rather than just elemental creatures, but that's completely discretionary.

Of course, someone will say, "That's because Dr00ds r0xx0r!" But I'll roll my eyes at them as I always do and try to err on the side of generosity as long as it doesn't overpower the abilities of other characters of the same level--in this case, it doesn't.
SmallPumpkinMan
05-17-04, 09:50 PM Originally posted by Gilhaelith
I agree that's why I highlighted part of the SRD, but your (1st) agrument was that its like polymorph. In that case you wouldn't get extraord. special qualities, SU and spell-like. However as I quoted before in the case of elementals (which this threads is about) it states you DO get to use this.

well, Yes.

Umn, think this argument just came about because of my surlyness :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaozWarior 05-16-04, 09:29 AM	hi in druids wild shape 3.5 it says i can take the form of small medium large elemental (air, fire, earth, water) at 16th lvl can i change into an air weird? it says air elemantal in there. so i can cast spells as 17th lvl sorc. lol
Dartanel 05-16-04, 09:47 AM	No, the elemental wild shape only allows the forms of the four basic elementals in the MM. I believe there's an epic feat which allows you to choose the form of any creature with the type [elemental] though.
ChaozWarior 05-16-04, 11:15 AM	where does it say only basic elementals? it says small medium large elemental (air, earth, fire, water) an air weird is it says large elemental (air) why would the phb mention about gaining spell like abilities of the elementals, since the basic ones have no sp abilities.
Thorak 05-16-04, 01:56 PM	A question; does the Air Weird cast spells as a 17th level sorceror as a spell-like ability, or does it just have the ability to cast? For instance; the Aboleth has an Aboleth Mage variant, that can cast as a 10th level wizard. But that's because the Aboleth has 10 levels of Wizard; it's not a spell-like or supernatural ability of the base creature.
ChaozWarior 05-17-04, 01:57 AM	no they don't have class levels.. and oops it was 18th lvl sorc. but you can only cast spells from the Air, Travel, Earth, Destruction, Fire, Sun, Water and Healing Domains. but the Druid can do this at 16th lvl.. Obscuring mist, Wind wall, Gaseous Form, Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Control Weather, Whirlwind, Elemental Swarm, Inflict Light Wounds (mass), Shatter, Contagion, Inflict Critical Wounds, Harm, Disintigrate, Earthquake, Implosion, Magic Stone, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Shape, Spike Stones, Wall of Stone, Stoneskin, Iron Body, Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Resist Energy, Wall of FIre, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Fire Strom, Incendiary Cloud, Cure Wounds (any), Heal (mass) , Regenerate, Endure Elements, Heat Metal, Searing Light, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Prismatic Sphere Longstrider, Locate Object, Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Find the Path, Greater Teleport, Phase Door, Astral Projection, Fog Cloud, Water Breathing, Control Water, Ice STrom, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, Horrid WIlting + analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing and vision, at will.
SmallPumpkinMan 05-17-04, 03:19 AM	It's "as polymorph". Polymorph doesn't give you spellcasting.
Gilhaelith 05-17-04, 03:26 AM	Originally posted by SmallPumpkinMan It's "as polymorph". Polymorph doesn't give you spellcasting. For normal wild shape you follow the polymorph rules, but not for elemental shaping. Quote for the SRD: "At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and pell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type." EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms.
SmallPumpkinMan 05-17-04, 03:53 AM	Originally posted by Gilhaelith For normal wild shape you follow the polymorph rules, but not for elemental shaping. Quote for the SRD: "At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and pell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type." EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms. spell-like is different to spellcasting. eg, you polymorph to turn yourself into a Solar (I know a solar has too many HD, I just can't think of another example off the top of my head.) you get it's constant magic circle vs evil and umn, whatever other spell-like's it gets, but you can't cast as a 20th lvl Cleric.
bitnine 05-17-04, 04:21 AM	Originally posted by Gilhaelith EDIT: I agree with ChoazWarior. No where does it say that that druids can only change into the 'basic' elemental forms. If you take the "small, medium, and large" to mean sizes instead of the specific types of elementals in the elemental entry of the DMG, then that opens up a whole lot of neat stuff you can do, particularly given templates that you can slap on to varied critters to make 'em typed elementals.
Gilhaelith 05-17-04, 04:41 AM	Originally posted by SmallPumpkinMan spell-like is different to spellcasting. I agree that's why I highlighted part of the SRD, but your (1st) agrument was that its like polymorph. In that case you wouldn't get extraord. special qualities, SU and spell-like. However as I quoted before in the case of elementals (which this threads is about) it states you DO get to use this.
Gilhaelith 05-17-04, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by bitnine If you take the "small, medium, and large" to mean sizes instead of the specific types of elementals in the elemental entry of the DMG, then that opens up a whole lot of neat stuff you can do, particularly given templates that you can slap on to varied critters to make 'em typed elementals. A druid can only change into 'normal' elemental (Note; I don't mean mean the 4 'basic' elemental). Meaning the average stats as stated in the elemental description. Templates are not considered 'normal' elemental (or anything else).
bitnine 05-17-04, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by Gilhaelith A druid can only change into 'normal' elemental (Note; I don't mean mean the 4 'basic' elemental).Really, now? That's very interesting, as I don't myself recall any mention of the 'normal' type or non-templated restrictions in the druid's ability block or in the spell to which it refers. Perhaps I just missed it, though. However, that's not to say that there isn't enough power to be had in reading that ability as granting the druid to turn into any creature of the elemental type with a size of small, medium, or large (and eventually huge), regardless of HD or CR/ECL. That's really quite handy in itself.
keith187 05-17-04, 07:00 AM	Re-read the entries for the elemental weirds. Sure you can argue that you can change into one but first you'll need a pool of the same element that you're changing into that you can't leave.
Gilhaelith 05-17-04, 02:39 PM	Read my next post.
Gilhaelith 05-17-04, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Really, now? That's very interesting, as I don't myself recall any mention of the 'normal' type or non-templated restrictions in the druid's ability block or in the spell to which it refers. Perhaps I just missed it, though. If your looking in the PHB 3.0 or 3.5 then its no wonder you can't find it. Its in the Masters of the Wild. On the bottom of page 10 it says "The following version of this ability (wild shape) supersedes the one presented in the Player's Handbook" refering to the 3.0 PHB although i'd say it also count for 3.5. On page 11 1 column last paragraph "The druid's new scrores and faculties are average ones for the species into which she has transformed." Considering templates aren't average for a species they fall under the same rule. However, that's not to say that there isn't enough power to be had in reading that ability as granting the druid to turn into any creature of the elemental type with a size of small, medium, or large (and eventually huge), regardless of HD or CR/ECL. That's really quite handy in itself. Note I never said anything about disregarding HD. "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." from the SRD also applies to elemental forms. Sorry if i wasn't clear on this before. Re-read the entries for the elemental weirds. Sure you can argue that you can change into one but first you'll need a pool of the same element that you're changing into that you can't leave. True, but this just an example. He could've said Belker or Magmin it doesn't change the question.
Krelios 05-17-04, 03:05 PM	where does it say only basic elementals? it says small medium large elemental (air, earth, fire, water) an air weird is it says large elemental (air) The wording for the Druid's wildshape is somewhat vague here. There are essentially two camps on this argument, and I think I understand the reasoning for each... 1) Druids can wildshape into any creature with the Elemental type. This is because the previous ability of wildshape was to change into any creature with the animal type (and eventually the plant type). This seems logically consistent, but it makes Elemental wildshape drastically more powerful than Animal (or plant) wildshape. OR 2) Druids can wildshape into only the "basic" elementals (i.e. water, earth, air or fire). This reasoning is based on the name. If someone says "a fire elemental," there's a common understanding of what creature that is. Unfortunately, Wizards made the mistake of giving a creature and a type the exact same name. That means that you can literally interpret this ability either way. It also says "Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water)" in an attempt to clarify, but technically a "fire wierd" is a medium fire elemental. In the same way that a "goblin" is small humanoid. What they need to do is either rename the creatures, or clarify the ability. As it stands, Druids don't get this ability until after a wizard could cast a spell that does the same thing, so I don't see it as a problem to allow elemental types rather than just elemental creatures, but that's completely discretionary. Of course, someone will say, "That's because Dr00ds r0xx0r!" But I'll roll my eyes at them as I always do and try to err on the side of generosity as long as it doesn't overpower the abilities of other characters of the same level--in this case, it doesn't.
SmallPumpkinMan 05-17-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by Gilhaelith I agree that's why I highlighted part of the SRD, but your (1st) agrument was that its like polymorph. In that case you wouldn't get extraord. special qualities, SU and spell-like. However as I quoted before in the case of elementals (which this threads is about) it states you DO get to use this. well, Yes. Umn, think this argument just came about because of my surlyness :)