Can prestige class prerequisites be met by spell effects? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can prestige class prerequisites be met by spell effects? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beware of Kobold
12-04-06, 03:17 PM My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect.
Lecen_of_Mitran
12-04-06, 03:19 PM No.

If you´re going to "cheat" the rules, much better to just ignore them.
Beware of Kobold
12-04-06, 03:25 PM is there a quote somewhere that can back up your answer? I don't have my DMG with me otherwise I wouldn't even be asking the original question.
Witch
12-04-06, 03:27 PM I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc.
Hit points, BAB and saves would be retained. As would skill points and feats gained (not bonus feats).

Aside from that: I would require a persistent version of the spell is cast on you for long periods of time (weeks, likely). Or you could use a magic item granting you that spell effect continuously. If the spell lasts for exampel 8 minutes, then no.
Beware of Kobold
12-04-06, 03:31 PM Hit points, BAB and saves would be retained. As would skill points and feats gained (not bonus feats).

Aside from that: I would require a persistent version of the spell is cast on you for long periods of time (weeks, likely). Or you could use a magic item granting you that spell effect continuously. If the spell lasts for exampel 8 minutes, then no.

Sorry, not that I don't appreciate your input, but I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking specifically for quotes from the DMG if there are any about whether this is legal or not. I'd check myself but i don't have my DMG with me.
Witch
12-04-06, 03:34 PM There are no explanations in the DMG about such things. Nothing prohibits it, but the fact remains that your character is not aware of when it levels, and hence cannot be aware of when to cast the spell.
Beware of Kobold
12-04-06, 03:38 PM isnt there a section in the DMG that talks about meeting the prerequisites of prestige classes and what happens when someone loses access to those prerequisites? Or is that a section from the PHB that talks about prerequisites of feats that I am thinking of?
Witch
12-04-06, 03:41 PM The SRD on Prestige Classes:
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

The only rule that even states that losing prerequisites means losing class abilities, is found in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. It states you lose any special abilities, but not anything derived from Hit Dice (such as hit points, saves, BAB and skill points)
Lecen_of_Mitran
12-04-06, 03:44 PM isnt there a section in the DMG that talks about meeting the prerequisites of prestige classes and what happens when someone loses access to those prerequisites? Or is that a section from the PHB that talks about prerequisites of feats that I am thinking of?

Yes, but that happens like, when you have a character with str 10, but wear a belt of giant strenght +4 and take Power Attack (that requires str 13). And later, for some reason, you lose the belt and return to str 10 again.

From now on, you won´t be able to fight with Power Attack until you raise your strenght to 13 again.

And you can only do that, because the belt gives a bonus that stays always active.

P.S.: I can´t imagine any decent DM allowing a character to get into a prestige class or taking a feat from temporary sources. But I can be wrong... after all, this is Dungeons & Munchk... er... I mean, Dungeons & Dragons!!
Pyke_Moonshadow
12-04-06, 03:54 PM Because of things just like the example above I do not allow magic items/spells to qualify for feats, PrCs etc. Nothing in the DMG/PHb says that you can so I rule you can't (yes, it doesn't say that you can't either). It is just easier to avoid abuse.
Witch
12-04-06, 03:59 PM If you don't allow magic items to help qualify for feats, you're going to have a hell of a lot of trouble qualifying for anything at Epic Levels.

Magic Items increase ability scores. You need a prerequisite height of an ability score for some feats. Nothing says anything about that score's origins :)
Beware of Kobold
12-04-06, 04:05 PM then couldnt you qualify for a feat that requires a certain ability score by using Bull's Strength or something similar? Sure its not permanent, but you have to take off that belt when you are sleeping or taking a bath etc. so its not truly a permanent bonus either
Pyke_Moonshadow
12-04-06, 04:06 PM If you don't allow magic items to help qualify for feats, you're going to have a hell of a lot of trouble qualifying for anything at Epic Levels.

Magic Items increase ability scores. You need a prerequisite height of an ability score for some feats. Nothing says anything about that score's origins :)

Hmm, never considered that. Then again no one in my group has ever played 3rd edition characters above 15th level.
Witch
12-04-06, 04:07 PM then couldnt you qualify for a feat that requires a certain ability score by using Bull's Strength or something similar? Sure its not permanent, but you have to take off that belt when you are sleeping or taking a bath etc. so its not truly a permanent bonus either

It's not truly permanent, but it's likely to be worn the majority of the time. Bull's Strength is 1min/level, as far as I know, and hence far less likely to influence your general behavior.
the_rooster
12-04-06, 04:51 PM My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect.

No. There is no quote that I know of, it is common sense. A class represents your characters studying and training to do a particular thing or set of things well. It isn't as if your character suddenly "knows" more things when he levels. The levelling up is a process that is represented by your experience points.

Look at it like this. Your character gains EXACTLY enough XP to go to level 2. Then something happens and you lose 1 experience point. Does it matter if that point was from your first orc or the last thing you killed? Nope. You are now 1st level again.

Gaining a level is a result of all of your experiences leading up to that point in time (all your XP) and not just the last bit (or the last experience point). So unless the character spent the vast majority of his time as a large creature, how could he train for a PrC that requires him to be large in order to learn its techniques, etc.?

As an example of why this is silly:

Would you let a man with no hands or voice take a level in wizard because he gained hands and a voice for 2 minutes? How would he ever learn to cast the spells? Surely he didn't learn in that mere 2 minutes what other wizards take years to learn.

In the same way simply being large for the right 2 minutes in time does not allow one to take a PrC requiring him to be large.
Pyke_Moonshadow
12-04-06, 04:57 PM Plus, for me anyway, leveling up does not happen in play as it were so temporary effects couldn't work.
Witch
12-04-06, 04:59 PM Myself, I generally go by common sense. That is, I'm neither overtly strict or overtly loose. In other words, if you're using the buff most of the time (including out of combat), then I'll allow you to use it to fit prerequisites. For example, if you cast a Persistent version Bull's Strength every day (or almost every day), and this raises your Strength from 9 tot 13, then I will allow you to qualify for Feats that have a requirement of Str 13. The same goes for requirement Large and Enlarge Person, if you manage to somehow persist it.
pheonixfrostmourn
12-06-06, 02:41 AM My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect.

not unless your DM allows enlarge person to be made permenant via the permenancy spell.
Red_Rabbit
12-06-06, 05:40 AM Unless you cast Permancy on the enlarge than "no" because the enlarge is not a permanent effect and than if the Enlarge gets Dispelled you'd no longer meet the preq's for your PrC so you'd lose all special abilities except BaB and saves.

The Rabbit
runestar
12-06-06, 05:52 AM I would say yes, but you loose the ability, you loose the prc's special abilities as well. If you want to use permanent enlarge to qualify for say, warhulk, go ahead by all means.:)

Permanent Enlarge person causes as many problems as it solves, so I say the inconvenience resulting from said spell balances it out. It has several drawbacks which may not be that readily apparent.

For example, you will need to reforge all your gear to be large size. While your eq is enlarged with you, they only remain this way for as long as you are holding onto them. The moment you let go of your weapon, or undress to sleep for the night, they shrink back to medium size, and holding them will not cause them to grow again.

Likewise, even with appropriately sized gear, the trouble does not end there. If you are subjected to a successful dispel magic, you revert back to medium size, and what size is your gear?;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beware of Kobold 12-04-06, 03:17 PM	My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect.
Lecen_of_Mitran 12-04-06, 03:19 PM	No. If you´re going to "cheat" the rules, much better to just ignore them.
Beware of Kobold 12-04-06, 03:25 PM	is there a quote somewhere that can back up your answer? I don't have my DMG with me otherwise I wouldn't even be asking the original question.
Witch 12-04-06, 03:27 PM	I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. Hit points, BAB and saves would be retained. As would skill points and feats gained (not bonus feats). Aside from that: I would require a persistent version of the spell is cast on you for long periods of time (weeks, likely). Or you could use a magic item granting you that spell effect continuously. If the spell lasts for exampel 8 minutes, then no.
Beware of Kobold 12-04-06, 03:31 PM	Hit points, BAB and saves would be retained. As would skill points and feats gained (not bonus feats). Aside from that: I would require a persistent version of the spell is cast on you for long periods of time (weeks, likely). Or you could use a magic item granting you that spell effect continuously. If the spell lasts for exampel 8 minutes, then no. Sorry, not that I don't appreciate your input, but I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking specifically for quotes from the DMG if there are any about whether this is legal or not. I'd check myself but i don't have my DMG with me.
Witch 12-04-06, 03:34 PM	There are no explanations in the DMG about such things. Nothing prohibits it, but the fact remains that your character is not aware of when it levels, and hence cannot be aware of when to cast the spell.
Beware of Kobold 12-04-06, 03:38 PM	isnt there a section in the DMG that talks about meeting the prerequisites of prestige classes and what happens when someone loses access to those prerequisites? Or is that a section from the PHB that talks about prerequisites of feats that I am thinking of?
Witch 12-04-06, 03:41 PM	The SRD on Prestige Classes: Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing. The only rule that even states that losing prerequisites means losing class abilities, is found in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. It states you lose any special abilities, but not anything derived from Hit Dice (such as hit points, saves, BAB and skill points)
Lecen_of_Mitran 12-04-06, 03:44 PM	isnt there a section in the DMG that talks about meeting the prerequisites of prestige classes and what happens when someone loses access to those prerequisites? Or is that a section from the PHB that talks about prerequisites of feats that I am thinking of? Yes, but that happens like, when you have a character with str 10, but wear a belt of giant strenght +4 and take Power Attack (that requires str 13). And later, for some reason, you lose the belt and return to str 10 again. From now on, you won´t be able to fight with Power Attack until you raise your strenght to 13 again. And you can only do that, because the belt gives a bonus that stays always active. P.S.: I can´t imagine any decent DM allowing a character to get into a prestige class or taking a feat from temporary sources. But I can be wrong... after all, this is Dungeons & Munchk... er... I mean, Dungeons & Dragons!!
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-04-06, 03:54 PM	Because of things just like the example above I do not allow magic items/spells to qualify for feats, PrCs etc. Nothing in the DMG/PHb says that you can so I rule you can't (yes, it doesn't say that you can't either). It is just easier to avoid abuse.
Witch 12-04-06, 03:59 PM	If you don't allow magic items to help qualify for feats, you're going to have a hell of a lot of trouble qualifying for anything at Epic Levels. Magic Items increase ability scores. You need a prerequisite height of an ability score for some feats. Nothing says anything about that score's origins :)
Beware of Kobold 12-04-06, 04:05 PM	then couldnt you qualify for a feat that requires a certain ability score by using Bull's Strength or something similar? Sure its not permanent, but you have to take off that belt when you are sleeping or taking a bath etc. so its not truly a permanent bonus either
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-04-06, 04:06 PM	If you don't allow magic items to help qualify for feats, you're going to have a hell of a lot of trouble qualifying for anything at Epic Levels. Magic Items increase ability scores. You need a prerequisite height of an ability score for some feats. Nothing says anything about that score's origins :) Hmm, never considered that. Then again no one in my group has ever played 3rd edition characters above 15th level.
Witch 12-04-06, 04:07 PM	then couldnt you qualify for a feat that requires a certain ability score by using Bull's Strength or something similar? Sure its not permanent, but you have to take off that belt when you are sleeping or taking a bath etc. so its not truly a permanent bonus either It's not truly permanent, but it's likely to be worn the majority of the time. Bull's Strength is 1min/level, as far as I know, and hence far less likely to influence your general behavior.
the_rooster 12-04-06, 04:51 PM	My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect. No. There is no quote that I know of, it is common sense. A class represents your characters studying and training to do a particular thing or set of things well. It isn't as if your character suddenly "knows" more things when he levels. The levelling up is a process that is represented by your experience points. Look at it like this. Your character gains EXACTLY enough XP to go to level 2. Then something happens and you lose 1 experience point. Does it matter if that point was from your first orc or the last thing you killed? Nope. You are now 1st level again. Gaining a level is a result of all of your experiences leading up to that point in time (all your XP) and not just the last bit (or the last experience point). So unless the character spent the vast majority of his time as a large creature, how could he train for a PrC that requires him to be large in order to learn its techniques, etc.? As an example of why this is silly: Would you let a man with no hands or voice take a level in wizard because he gained hands and a voice for 2 minutes? How would he ever learn to cast the spells? Surely he didn't learn in that mere 2 minutes what other wizards take years to learn. In the same way simply being large for the right 2 minutes in time does not allow one to take a PrC requiring him to be large.
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-04-06, 04:57 PM	Plus, for me anyway, leveling up does not happen in play as it were so temporary effects couldn't work.
Witch 12-04-06, 04:59 PM	Myself, I generally go by common sense. That is, I'm neither overtly strict or overtly loose. In other words, if you're using the buff most of the time (including out of combat), then I'll allow you to use it to fit prerequisites. For example, if you cast a Persistent version Bull's Strength every day (or almost every day), and this raises your Strength from 9 tot 13, then I will allow you to qualify for Feats that have a requirement of Str 13. The same goes for requirement Large and Enlarge Person, if you manage to somehow persist it.
pheonixfrostmourn 12-06-06, 02:41 AM	My question, more specifically, is can someone under the effects of enlarge person meet the prerequisites of the a prestige class that requires large size or larger? I already know that when this person isn't under the effects of the spell they will not gain any of the benefits of the pretige class, including hit points, base attack, special abilities etc. I am only interested in knowing if someone can qualify for the prestige class via a spell effect. not unless your DM allows enlarge person to be made permenant via the permenancy spell.
Red_Rabbit 12-06-06, 05:40 AM	Unless you cast Permancy on the enlarge than "no" because the enlarge is not a permanent effect and than if the Enlarge gets Dispelled you'd no longer meet the preq's for your PrC so you'd lose all special abilities except BaB and saves. The Rabbit
runestar 12-06-06, 05:52 AM	I would say yes, but you loose the ability, you loose the prc's special abilities as well. If you want to use permanent enlarge to qualify for say, warhulk, go ahead by all means.:) Permanent Enlarge person causes as many problems as it solves, so I say the inconvenience resulting from said spell balances it out. It has several drawbacks which may not be that readily apparent. For example, you will need to reforge all your gear to be large size. While your eq is enlarged with you, they only remain this way for as long as you are holding onto them. The moment you let go of your weapon, or undress to sleep for the night, they shrink back to medium size, and holding them will not cause them to grow again. Likewise, even with appropriately sized gear, the trouble does not end there. If you are subjected to a successful dispel magic, you revert back to medium size, and what size is your gear?;)