Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rumple_Cragstan 05-28-06, 03:27 PM	I just got around to taking a look at the PHBII and I came upon the duskblade. This class seems like the most broken thing I've ever seen. Full BAB, 2 good saves, up to 5th level spells, the ability to add touch spells to thier attacks, Quick Cast is ridiculous. But my friend, who owns the book, and whose balance oppinion I sincerely respect, continually argues against my cries of "MUNCHKIN" whenever the class is brought up in conversation. *sigh* can someone explain to me, please, how this isn't better than most other classes out there? (and though this does seem to be a very oppinionated post, I will seriously consider anything you guys say about the balance issue. This isn't just going to be me refusing to hear you out) Thanks everyone, I hope.
Memnoch138 05-28-06, 03:34 PM	I seem to remember them having an EXTREMELY limited list of spells. I don't have my PHBII in front of me, but something about them was unattractive to me.
Thorak 05-28-06, 03:35 PM	Full BAB, but that's it as far as martial ability goes. A Ranger is more melee-oriented. Only up to 5th level spells. That's your answer right there. Limited spell list, missing most of the spells that would make them a nightmare. There's a reason it doesn't get them. It's not broken. It's a good fighter/mage archetype, but I absolutely guarantee you can do much more powerful things with an Eldritch Knight past about level 7 or 8. The ED only loses 2 casting levels, so by 20, when the Duskblade has 5th level spells in his limited spell list, the ED has 9th level spells in his full spell list. The Duskblade isn't in any way broken. Strong, unlike say the Hexblade, but not broken.
Gleddon 05-28-06, 03:37 PM	While I do believe that it is a considerably powerful class, it's built in such a way that you need to go almost all 20 levels in it to get everything it has to offer. You can prestige and keep getting spell casting, but none of the other abilities go up or are gained. Likewise you can keep leveling as a Duskblade and get the great abilities, but you may end up waiting a long time to dip into any prestige classes to gain added functionality. It's honestly a base class that I would take twenty levels in, but that means you're entirely dependent on spell and feat selection to make yourself unique. I do believe it's pretty powerful, but it's not the worst thing out there. It's also possible (but certainly not guaranteed) that an errata or rules clarification in the future may help to even out some of the things that make it seem so powerful.
Nephlite 05-28-06, 03:40 PM	I just got around to taking a look at the PHBII and I came upon the duskblade. This class seems like the most broken thing I've ever seen. Full BAB, 2 good saves, up to 5th level spells, the ability to add touch spells to thier attacks, Quick Cast is ridiculous. But my friend, who owns the book, and whose balance oppinion I sincerely respect, continually argues against my cries of "MUNCHKIN" whenever the class is brought up in conversation. *sigh* can someone explain to me, please, how this isn't better than most other classes out there? (and though this does seem to be a very oppinionated post, I will seriously consider anything you guys say about the balance issue. This isn't just going to be me refusing to hear you out) Thanks everyone, I hope. Whether not it matters; they are not proficiency with simple weapons. So they can't fight unarmed (at all). First, they can't cast in very heavy armor (light at begining) at first. They can't cast in shields heavier than light (due to they will most likely be using a weapon just like a cleric). All their spells are attack spells that are touch/ranged touch. They aren't blasters like fireball . They get on Area spell: as a 5th level spell theyget Chain Lightning. They do deal decent damage with their spells. They have ranger-like hps. Whoalso have full bab and up to 4th spells (rangers can also heal). If against a Wizard/Sorceror: all of their spells can be beaten by a Globe of Invulnerability (lesser for most of them). The ability to add Touch spells is great: it is like a spell storing device. Though, first it is a standard action to do so (so only 1 attack) As they level, a full attack possible (but it ends spells effect that turn). I'd say they are good, but no better than a barbarian in dealing damage (assuming they don't run out of spells),
Rumple_Cragstan 05-28-06, 03:59 PM	Ok, after reading these few posts, I realist my mistake. I looked at the class, looked at all the other core classes, and went "WOAHOMG THIS IS TEH BROKEN!". Because honestly, when placed like that, it IS broken. But I completely forgot that NOBODY plays 20 level core classes anymore. Everybody PrCs and many people multiclass. When placed against a 20th level fighter, Duskblade looks like GOD. But when placed against a Ftr4/Rog6/Kensai10, it dosn't look so bad. Same goes for Eldrich Knights. I also forgot that this game gives benefits for specialization. If you want to excell at something, you have to give everything else up. Blaster Mages tend not to be able to have too many divinations. Fighters who can PUMP out damage don't have AC through the roof. Duskblade dosn't specialize, and thus while its good at everything, it can be outdone in all of thier skills by another class. They are, essentially, a slightly more powerful Bard - a jack of all trades. And thus, masters of none.
Witch 05-28-06, 04:02 PM	But I completely forgot that NOBODY plays 20 level core classes anymore. Everybody PrCs and many people multiclass. When placed against a 20th level fighter, Duskblade looks like GOD. But when placed against a Ftr4/Rog6/Kensai10, it dosn't look so bad. Same goes for Eldrich Knights. That's what Wizards is trying to correct - they're trying to create classes now that reward staying in it for 20 levels, by special abilities. The Fighter gets a crappy 20 levels. There's no reason to take more than a dip. The newer classes get good abilities at higher levels.
Witch 05-28-06, 04:03 PM	Whether not it matters; they are not proficiency with simple weapons. So they can't fight unarmed (at all). That's just a silly oversight.
Cadfan 05-28-06, 04:26 PM	They've got some limits. They have stat spread because they need dexterity to make up for their lighter armor, constitution to make up for their lower hit points, and intelligence to cast their spells. This means they won't attack as effectively as a comparable fighter who will probably only have a 12 in dex, and no particular int bonus. If they want to use shields, they have to deal with the same difficulties when casting spells with somatic components as a cleric or a paladin. That is, they can't use a heavy shield and cast a spell with a somatic component unless they drop their weapon. I don't agree with the assertion that the core classes aren't worth taking to 20 levels, in fact, I think that a standard fighter is easily a better front line combatant than a duskblade. The duskblade has other abilities (skills, ranged spells, etc) that compensate, but I hardly think the core classes are obsolete as 20 level progressions. But that's not really the point of this thread.
Toxic_Shaman 05-28-06, 04:34 PM	But I completely forgot that NOBODY plays 20 level core classes anymore. Everybody PrCs and many people multiclass. When placed against a 20th level fighter, Duskblade looks like GOD. But when placed against a Ftr4/Rog6/Kensai10, it dosn't look so bad. Same goes for Eldrich Knights. I also forgot that this game gives benefits for specialization. If you want to excell at something, you have to give everything else up. Blaster Mages tend not to be able to have too many divinations. Fighters who can PUMP out damage don't have AC through the roof. Duskblade dosn't specialize, and thus while its good at everything, it can be outdone in all of thier skills by another class. They are, essentially, a slightly more powerful Bard - a jack of all trades. And thus, masters of none. There are classes that are quite potent to 20 levels. Druid 20 is probably the most obvious example. Of course there are also classes that don't give you any incentive to stay with, Sorceror being one of the worst offenders. I like seeing classes come out that remain effective through 20 levels. I haven't played a Duskblade yet, but I really doubt it would be overpowered.
Todd 05-28-06, 04:40 PM	Just about all of the core classes have gotten upgrades of one sort of anther over time too from the new class options in the PHB II, the new fighter feats, new ranger spells, etc. With the PHB II a Fighter 20 build seems reasonable to me. Druid 20 has always seemed great. I'm still not sold on Wizard 20 or Sorcerer 20 ... these classes have so many good PrCs that it seems a no-brainer to branch out.
hryggur 05-28-06, 07:46 PM	There's a feat from Complete Arcane that let's you use armor one step heavier than you can usually wear without arcane spell failure. I have it on my lvl 12 Warmage and when ppl say that nobody goes all the way to lvl 20 as a core class they're wrong, I do so the statement that nobody does it is wrong, although ppl tell me that I'm a nobody so perhaps he's referring to me :) lvl 12 Warmage in Adamantium Fullplate is a cool thing to me, sure he can't do much on hiw own, that's why I have my über friends around me for support :)
Kuraito 05-28-06, 07:49 PM	Uh, personally, I think this class actualy encourages you to munchkin. Its abilitys seem to say "Hey, fnd a way to do the most damage as humanly possible with me!" Basically, its all Impact, I'm curently in a game with a Duskblade, Beguiler and Spirit Shamen, all of us veterns, and while we're all pretty good, the duskblade is just LOADED with loop holes to crank out that damage. Channel+Spell Storing+Quick Cast True Strike+Power Attack, yea, you've just expended alot, but the thing you were fighting? Dead. REALLY dead. You can even do this more then once a day at the lower levels, replacing quick cast true strike with Blade of Blood. The class itself is VERY powerful, as to broken, eh, not sure. It does seem to encourage players to twink though.
Rumple_Cragstan 05-28-06, 08:36 PM	It does seem to encourage players to twink though. Dudeman, everything in the current state of things encourages players to min/max. There's entire books about different ways to twink your character (Unearthed Arcana). Prestige Classes have become nutty powerful. Everything is twinked, and thus, everything is on the same level.
Father Dale 05-28-06, 09:59 PM	I dont' think its overpowered eithe. Its a real good blend of fighter/mage with some serious limitations. The few buff spells it gets aren't that great. Basically you have your simple stat buffs and energy resistance spells. Doesn't even have mirror image or invisibility (has swift invisibility, thats it). An equal level cleric will be able to easily protect against almost all of the duskblades spells. (with the possible exception of disintigrate.) An equal level wizard would decimate a duskblade, especially at higher levels. A fighter or barbarian would probably have trouble without appropriate protections against the spells, although a fighter with reach and Mage Slayer would be a tough combatant. An Eldritch Knight would have much better spells than the duskblade. Even a simple build, such as Fighter 4/Wizard 6/EK 10 would give 8th lvl spells and only be 3 behind on BAB. The Duskblade would have a +3 advantage on will saves, but the EK would have a +1 advantage on fort saves. (Plus the EK would have access to Mindblank anyways.). The biggest drawback for the Duskblade? No Greater Dispell. In fact, he can't get dispell magic until 13th lvl anyways, so at that point hes got a +10 to beat an equal level casters DC=24. And it only gets worse. No access to Assay Restistance either, so against high SR enemies hes got problems. Dragons particularly will be difficult, especially if the Dragon has decent spellcasting. The duskblade is also feat hungry; they will have a hard balancing act between taking spell focused feats or melee feats. Plus they can't make good use of metamagic, which severaly weakens a lot of there attack spells. All in all though, I think this is a well balanced class allowing a character to play a mage/fighter without complicated PRC builds. I'd still rather play a EK, but the duskblade can jump right into the mage/fighter mix while the EK won't really come together until about lvl 10.
Father Dale 05-28-06, 10:06 PM	Dudeman, everything in the current state of things encourages players to min/max. There's entire books about different ways to twink your character (Unearthed Arcana). Prestige Classes have become nutty powerful. Everything is twinked, and thus, everything is on the same level. So true. And I don't think there is a thing wrong with that. I love playing a character. Building up his personality and his history. How he interacts with his party members, NPCs, villians, deities, etc.. Making him into a true personality and then acting it out. Imagining it all taking place on a movie screen. But I also love designing a character. Mixing abilities from different classes, synergizing abilities with feats. Wathcing him grow in power. It almost like a puzzle in this sense sometimes; getting everything to fit together just right. And best of all is mixing both sides together. Understanding why the personality has these sets of abilities. Why the Elven Archer can slip through the woods unnoticed. Why the Nomad wanderer is such a good tracker. Why the Archmage has such a fascination with the Outer planes. Its whats so great about this game. So many enjoyable aspects of it all coming together.
Thorak 05-28-06, 10:37 PM	Dudeman, everything in the current state of things encourages players to min/max. There's entire books about different ways to twink your character (Unearthed Arcana). Prestige Classes have become nutty powerful. Everything is twinked, and thus, everything is on the same level. Not only that, but the Duskblade is finally a workable arcane fighter core class. We've got two divine fighters in the PHB, the ranger and the paladin, though they're even more warrior-oriented than the duskblade. And the hexblade was a sad attempt, since its actual abilities weren't what most people wanted. And while there are PrCs like Eldritch Knight and Spellsword, they meant you had to multiclass nice and early and generally gimp your lower levels just to start playing the character you wanted. The Duskblade gives us a nice basic template for the arcane fighter, and while it's a strong, good class, it's no stronger than any of the other casters, and I would argue significantly weaker than they. I'd also put long odds on a Barbarian taking one down. Their job won't be as the main damage dealer; they can't afford to take the hits. It'll be as a support and skirmishing warrior, hitting vulnerable targets and helping the main melee types do their job. Not that you couldn't use one as the main melee in a group, but then you won't be doing as well, in all likelihood, as you would with a pure melee class. If anything, the duskblade isn't a min/max choice, because it's mediocre at two things, rather than excellent at one.
Vaelan 05-29-06, 12:13 AM	There's entire books about different ways to twink your character (Unearthed Arcana). It is a book of variants for DMs. It was not published with the intention that you ascribe to it.
Rumple_Cragstan 05-29-06, 12:48 AM	It is a book of variants for DMs. It was not published with the intention that you ascribe to it. Players read books, and they ask if they can use things out of them. Alot of the variants in the book make the PCs even more powerful than they already are. Some of them don't change anything balance-wise, but most things give the party more power than before. Most notably, Flaws. They're something that almost every DM I know uses, and something that every player I know likes. I *am* a DM, but its not hard to see what the book really does - makes the PCs just that much more hard to kill.
Thelon Fairblade 05-30-06, 11:11 AM	What is the comparison of Duskblades to BattleSorcerers (UA)? Apples to oranges, perhaps, since the BS is a full caster? What about twinking options with Duskblade and Eldritch Knight?
eggplantm 05-30-06, 11:59 AM	The thing that makes the duskblade look very attractive and powerful is that all of its abilities are so OBVIOUS. It is a simple effort to make a decent duskblade as the duskblade is designed to throw around damage so you can see how great he is right up front. Characters like the fighter and others are not so obvious. With the right selection of feats, a fighter can do amazing things. Let's look at the duskblade another way, this specialized character is meant to throw damaging spells and channel those spells through his weapon to do some impressive damage. How often can he do this? The duskblade has a lot of spells per day for a reason, he will need them as he will be using one for every combat action. First round will involve using a ranged spell, upon closing with the enemy he will use another with channel spell. Throughout the day, he is using one spell every action he takes and he may be having a little bit of a hard time when he comes across SR opponents (maybe). The fighter goes a bit longer and most other classes have either more defenses or defensive and buff spells that last an entire encounter. I will concede that the duskblade is quite good but I do not think they are "broken" in any fashion. The duskblade is a weapon to be sure but one that is really only good at dealing damage via spells. At this, they excell but there is not too much farther for them to go than this. We need some specific examples of what this character can do and then compare that to other classes. Also, consider that not all classes are created equal. It has been long accepted that the cleric and druid are at the top of the heap for classes. Some class has to take that position. They are there not just because they can do one thing very well but because they can do most anything very well. The cleric has the best armor and it does not hinder him at all, he has the best spellcasting selection and a spell for every situation including some for big damage. He has good hit points and good saves. He does all things very well and with the right selection of spells and feats and items he can do anything. The druid enjoys similar benefits and can be even more effective in melee and is a potentially more damaging spellcaster, he just lacks the incredible versatility of the cleric but he comes very close.He also has more skill points and other options from animal companion and wildshape. The duskblade does one thing very well, he does damage through spells and weapons. His weaknesses are many compared to the other two. He cannot heal, his armor progression is restricted at first and can never become the best without feats, spells options are very limited as he has little method of dealing with something without causing damage so his versatility is lacking. A golem or a high SR creature could really ruin a duskblade's day. So, I'll say that is my final arguement. It is a very strong, straighforward class. Interesting? If you like attacking the same way with spells all the time. Versatile? No. Options are not that many as are different paths to take your character on as you are already so specialized in what your character can do. The duskblade may be able to throw down some of the ugliest damage in one round but there are many things that will thwart them.