Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Redding MTG Player 08-07-04, 03:53 AM	can you wildshape into an advanced form of a creature, like a 5HD leopard.
q'afuu 08-07-04, 06:38 AM	IMO, no. You change into a 'typical' specimen, which means the standard entry.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-07-04, 08:51 AM	The rules-as-written would seem to imply that no, you can't. However, I've never seen any reason why not.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 08-07-04, 01:46 PM	q'affu - you need to back that up with a PHB or SRD quote. Otherwise, you are incorrect. khaibit - the same with you. nowhere does it state that you only can be a normal, typical, or standard specimen of an animal.. i'll be interested to see if anyone can quote a 3.5 rule stating that a druid CANNOT wildshape into an advanced animal
deathmaster35 08-07-04, 01:48 PM	Where do the rules use the word "typical"? From the way it is writen you can change into any animal within the size limations and HD limations given, it doesnt use the word "typical: or "specimen" for that matter.
Thorak 08-07-04, 01:51 PM	Originally posted by q'afuu IMO, no. You change into a 'typical' specimen, which means the standard entry. Source? I just re-read the Wildshape, Polymorph, and Alter Self text, and can't find anything like that. The Alter Self text says you can't have any templates, but that may be overruled by Polymorph, and Advancement isn't a template in any case. However, if it is possible to Wildshape into an Advanced creature, you as a druid would also have to be familiar with the advanced form, and given the rarity, that wouldn't be something you'd innately have at level 1 IMHO. You'd have to find and become familiar with the creature at some point during the adventure. So if you befriend that Advanced 5hd Leopard, then you can Wildshape into it's form. But not before.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-07-04, 02:00 PM	y'know...you're right, that isn't actually in the spell. I don't know why I thought it was. This is what I get for trying to post ANYTHING before noon. I should be aware by now that I don't fully wake up until 6pm, and I'm totally useless before 12. Of course, the benefits of advanced hit dice are rather limited, since you retain your own hitpoints, BAB, and Saves. Though the size increases and whatnot can be quite handy, especially considering the increased nat-weapon damage. Hmm. Question: If you polymorph an advanced form, with enough extra HD that it would have an ability increase or two, do you get to decide where those ability increases go? Also, when you advance into a larger size category, do you get all the ability increases/decreases that go with size increase?
q'afuu 08-07-04, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man q'affu - you need to back that up with a PHB or SRD quote. Otherwise, you are incorrect. Will a quote from Masters of the Wild do (MotW specifically says the rules therein supercede the ones in the PHB)? "The druids new scores and faculties are average ones for the species into which she has transformed. She cannot, for example, turn herself into a wolf with a Str of 20. Likewise, she cannot change into a bigger or more powerful version of a creature (or a smaller or weaker version)." Granted, that's 3.0 but considering it neatly solves all the questions otherwise raised (see Khaibit_Ema_Neteru's post above), I'd say it equally applies to 3.5 Wildshape. I repeat, IMO.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-07-04, 03:08 PM	You're right, it is 3.0, so it doesn't necessarily apply. And actually, having gone back and read my MM, you DO get the ability benefits of size increase (I don't know why I even asked, since I knew it was listed in the "advancing monsters" section), so that's cool, so the only real question is where the ability increases go. Honestly, I'm all in favor of being able to use advanced versions of monsters. It makes it easier for a druid to stick with a few "Signature" forms that fit his personality, rather than always trying to find the most effective form he can once he gains a new level, or else be left in the dust. I'd rather that a druid with a big lion affinity that often wildshapes a dire lion (8HD) not feel like, at later levels, he has to seek out a stronger animal that isn't as well suited to his character. Instead, it's better if he can just Wildshape a Huge Dire Lion at 17th.
Egres 08-07-04, 03:16 PM	Originally posted by Thorak Source? I just re-read the Wildshape, Polymorph, and Alter Self text, and can't find anything like that. The Alter Self text says you can't have any templates, but that may be overruled by Polymorph, and Advancement isn't a template in any case. However, if it is possible to Wildshape into an Advanced creature, you as a druid would also have to be familiar with the advanced form, and given the rarity, that wouldn't be something you'd innately have at level 1 IMHO. You'd have to find and become familiar with the creature at some point during the adventure. So if you befriend that Advanced 5hd Leopard, then you can Wildshape into it's form. But not before. Well,i don't know the answer to the question,but the Alter Self spell textes: From the SRD: The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. And this comes from the "Rules of the Game": The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll.
q'afuu 08-07-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru ... so the only real question is where the ability increases go. And extra skill points, and possible extra feats. Besides, going by what Egres posted it's clearly settled: average, not advanced.
Snow Savant 08-07-04, 04:25 PM	From the SRD: The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. And this comes from the "Rules of the Game": The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll. Correct. So when your Druid wildshapes into an Advanced Black Bear for example, she gets the average characteristics of the average Advanced Black Bear. The SRD statement quoted by Egres adds confirmation that assuming the Advanced animal forms are legal.
q'afuu 08-07-04, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant Correct. So when your Druid wildshapes into an Advanced Black Bear for example, she gets the average characteristics of the average Advanced Black Bear. So an advanced black bear is a different kind of creature than a non-advanced one? I don't think so. ;) Oh, and could you give me the official characteristics for an average 12 HD advanced polar bear? Specifically the extra stat increase?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-07-04, 05:09 PM	And extra skill points, and possible extra feats. Umm. No. When you polymorph, alter self, or wildshape, you do NOT get the creature's skills or feats, unless they're racial bonus feats or skill modifiers, both of which are constant between basic and advanced creatures. THe stat points are the ONLY issue So when your Druid wildshapes into an Advanced Black Bear for example, she gets the average characteristics of the average Advanced Black Bear Agreed. I think that clause was in there more because there ARE variations in stats between one creature and another. It's possible to find a wolf with the same number of hit dice as a normal one, and yet a strength 2 pts higher. There is variation. However, you're not allowed to polymorph those creatures. However, an advanced version of the basic wolf is a different issue from an abnormally strong basic wolf
AngryMonkey 08-07-04, 07:11 PM	Correct. So when your Druid wildshapes into an Advanced Black Bear for example, she gets the average characteristics of the average Advanced Black Bear. The SRD statement quoted by Egres adds confirmation that assuming the Advanced animal forms are legal. Sorry Snow, but to me that sounds like saying you can turn into a wolf with 20 Str because its an average Uncommonly Strong Wolf. I doubt that you would consider this legal though. I believe that you should not be able to Wildshape into an advanced HD form, as per the Alter Self text already qouted earlier in this thread. I've also had this debate in another thread some time ago, and I think the truth is that there will be no conclusive consesus on the issue.I predict that the two main points of view will eventually become prominent is that.... 1)The Advanced Animal counts as a race seperate from its Normal Animal relation (this is, I belive, Snows interpritation) and that therefore they are a legitimate form for a Wild Shaped Druid. 2) An Advanced Animal is just an exceptionally large or powerful member of the standard race. With emphises on the word exceptional, and with reference to the use of the words average and norms in the root Alter Self text. Personally, I hold with option 2 but I will concede that it is very difficult to back up conclusively. Fortunately (or perhaps not...) it is equally difficult to back up the first option conclusively as well. For those who care, I did ask this exact same question of Cust Serv not that long ago. I was curious about what they would say. I do not consider their replys as anything more than the opinion of one person who didnt think about the problem for more than 30 seconds before getting onto the next email, but it is interesting to see what they say about complex issues. 2 The Alter Self description in the SRD has this to say about the nature of the availabe forms: You can freely designate the new forms minor physical qualities such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new forms significant physical qualities such as height, weight, and gender are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new forms kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new forms race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a 10 bonus on your Disguise check. Because you are disguised as an average member of the race, does this mean that with a druids wildshape they may not shift into the form of an animal with advanced HD? It seems to me that an animal with advanced HD is not an average animal at all. - A druid can shift into any animal, including one that is advanced by Hit Dice as long as it has the same number of hit dice that he does. So this might be the end of discussion if that was the sort of ruling you were looking for. I can't say I'm that keen on getting involved in all this again but I am curious about what gets said with a new group of debaters ;)
Thorak 08-07-04, 07:19 PM	I was always of the opinion that Advanced animals were, indeed, separate breeds from the 'standard' types. Like in the real world, we have Grey Wolves, Red Wolves, and Timber Wolves. They're all wolves, though. And a 6HD, Advanced Wolf would be size Large, making it bigger than any wolf has ever been in the real world, which pretty firmly IMHO makes it a separate species. A sub-species of the 'standard' animal, but separate nonetheless. Which is also why I made my point of being familiar with the new species; if you aren't familiar with the 6HD Advanced Wolf subspecies, you can't Wildshape into them.
deathmaster35 08-07-04, 08:29 PM	Technicly the book are the correct source, not the SRD. Does the book use the word "average" ?
Redding MTG Player 08-07-04, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by Thorak I was always of the opinion that Advanced animals were, indeed, separate breeds from the 'standard' types. Like in the real world, we have Grey Wolves, Red Wolves, and Timber Wolves. They're all wolves, though. And a 6HD, Advanced Wolf would be size Large, making it bigger than any wolf has ever been in the real world, which pretty firmly IMHO makes it a separate species. A sub-species of the 'standard' animal, but separate nonetheless. Which is also why I made my point of being familiar with the new species; if you aren't familiar with the 6HD Advanced Wolf subspecies, you can't Wildshape into them. I think of advancement as being older more experienced, such as an alpha male in a pack.
The Ferryman 08-07-04, 11:57 PM	I haven't formed an opinion either way yet, but I thought that I would throw this out there: An advanced animal is considered to be an atypical member of it's species. Per the SRD: Advancement: The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Per the SRD: Improving Monsters: Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels. Adding hit dice or class levels do not change the creature's type or name (some classes change the type, but it's rare). Many templates do change the type. I'd say unless the name or type changes, it's the same creature; just a rare specimen.
Thorak 08-08-04, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by Redding MTG Player I think of advancement as being older more experienced, such as an alpha male in a pack. I understand the possibility, but point out that it's impossible. An alpha wolf might be the biggest in his back, but there's no way he's going to be twice as big as the rest, which is what would be the case roughly if he were Advanced to size Large, and the rest were still Medium. Regardless of how much older he gets. He's either a mutant, possibly due to magical 'radiation', which I admit is a possibility, or he's a completely different subspecies, like how African elephants tend to be bigger, overall, than Asiatic ones, though obviously on a much larger scale. Either one of those makes sense, but I see absolutely no reason why being older or more experienced would make a creature grow to twice it's normal size, which is what a size change boils down to.
toomre 08-08-04, 03:26 AM	I also think advanced animals are fair game for wildshape. The 20 str wolf which the MotW says is not permitted is not talking about an advanced wolf, an advanced wolf has 21 str, so the 20 str example is not saying in any way anything about advanced wolves. Regarding the troll example from Rules of the Game: trolls are all large and they advance by character classes, huge trolls don't exist. So this example is also not dismissing the possibility of becoming an advanced animal. The spells in question use the words form and kind with consistency, they use the words average and race only once in the alter self section about the disguise modifer, which if you notice in the Rules of the Game is its own seperate bullet (ie pulled away from the rest of its paragraph in the alter self spell desciption), and I think that seperation was intentional. Emphasizing this idea of average or standard, and references to species, breed, or race lead to many difficult to resolve scenarios: Dragons, Tojanidas, Xorns, Bhargest/Grtr Bhargest, Wraith/Dread Wraith, Slaads: which HD/age/size is average and hence an assumable form? Duergar, Drow, Aquatic Elves, etc: they are subraces, not their own seperate race, the most common dwarves are the hill dwarf so only that dwarven form could be assumed? Formians, Giant Ants: most common are workers, are they the average hence only assumable formian and giant ant forms? Horses (War, Heavy, or Light) and Dogs (Riding or not): totally different stat blocks though inarguably the same species, which one would be assumable via wildshape? Elementals of different HD: same species? if so which is average? Hydras with different # of heads: same species? if so which is average?If the advanced animal opponents can come up with a coherent, consistent, and playable rule interpretation that addresses all of these cases and still leaves out advanced animals, then power to you. The advanced animal proponents don't have any homework to do, they can sleep easy knowing that as per their straight forward interpretation all the above forms can legally be assumed. ps. I realize that the examples above aren't about wildshape, but whatever ruling you decide to come to on wildshape must surely apply to all the spells in the alter self spell chain, up to good ol' shapechange.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 04:19 AM	Originally posted by Thorak I understand the possibility, but point out that it's impossible. An alpha wolf might be the biggest in his back, but there's no way he's going to be twice as big as the rest, which is what would be the case roughly if he were Advanced to size Large, and the rest were still Medium. Nope. Size categories don't bestow a specific size.Dwarves and Half-Orcs are both Medium, but it's well within parameters for the latter to be twice as big as the former. Hence, size categories are ranges of size. A Medium wolf close to large (3 HD) will be smaller than a Large wolf (4 HD), but not by half.
Thorak 08-08-04, 05:46 AM	Originally posted by q'afuu Nope. Size categories don't bestow a specific size.Dwarves and Half-Orcs are both Medium, but it's well within parameters for the latter to be twice as big as the former. Hence, size categories are ranges of size. A Medium wolf close to large (3 HD) will be smaller than a Large wolf (4 HD), but not by half. But a standard wolf at 2HD will be half, or less, the size of a 6HD wolf. And considering a 'standard' wolf is probably about 4 feet long, that means you've got a wolf the size of a lion. Which is impossible, barring mutation, or a new species.
Egres 08-08-04, 06:35 AM	I still don't have a clear position about the matter,but i tend to agree with Thorak,at least about the Size matter. This is from the Rules of the Game: Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk. Note also that: To any casual viewer, you are a typical specimen of the kind of creature whose form you have assumed. It would be hard to appear as a tipical wolf,if you are 2 times larger than the average.Emphasizing this idea of average or standard, and references to species, breed, or race lead to many difficult to resolve scenarios: From the Rules of the Game: As with alter self, there's no limit to the subtypes the subject can assume, so long as the base type is on the list given above. However: You can freely designate the assumed form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind, just as with the alter self spell. The subject is effectively disguised as an average member of the assumed form's race, as noted in Part Two. Well,i can't become a human with blue hair and red eyes,but i can become a wolf 2 times bigger than the average? And can we consider this wolf an average one in order to being disguised as an average wolf?
q'afuu 08-08-04, 09:48 AM	Originally posted by Thorak But a standard wolf at 2HD will be half, or less, the size of a 6HD wolf. And considering a 'standard' wolf is probably about 4 feet long, that means you've got a wolf the size of a lion. Nope. If you double a creature's dimensions (length, height, width all times 2), you've multiplied it's size by 8 - to use your example, a typical lion is about 8 times as big as a typical wolf. If you want to double a creature's size, you multiply each dimension by the cube root of 2, which is less than 1.3. A wolf's length (tip of the nose to tip of the tail) varies between 3'11" and 6'7" (that alone is a length increase of 65%) normally, with extreme values going up to 7'10" (twice the lowest normal length). Taking the average of the normal values and comparing that to the most extreme length, we find you need a factor 1.5 to multiply the average with. That gives values well within range for the 1.3 factor found above.
toomre 08-08-04, 12:36 PM	Originally posted by Egres Well,i can't become a human with blue hair and red eyes,but i can become a wolf 2 times bigger than the average? I think you're unnecessarily getting stuck on the sentences from alter self which are describing the spell's effect on disguise, and yes, a size L wolf is average in the sense that such creatures do exist in the D&D world (ie if you see one you don't automatically assume it's an animal growthed medium wolf), having pink fur however would not be average for that animal and hence you can't choose to have pink fur when you become an advanced or regular wolf. The HD, size and type limitations were defind in the very first paragraph of the spell. Still, if people insist on assigning any significance (beyond the disguise factor) to those sentences, then I challenge them to resolve the examples I had listed in my previous post and stop worrying about this wolf example, you've got much bigger problems.
Thorak 08-08-04, 01:03 PM	Originally posted by q'afuu Nope. If you double a creature's dimensions (length, height, width all times 2), you've multiplied it's size by 8 - to use your example, a typical lion is about 8 times as big as a typical wolf. If you want to double a creature's size, you multiply each dimension by the cube root of 2, which is less than 1.3. A wolf's length (tip of the nose to tip of the tail) varies between 3'11" and 6'7" (that alone is a length increase of 65%) normally, with extreme values going up to 7'10" (twice the lowest normal length). Taking the average of the normal values and comparing that to the most extreme length, we find you need a factor 1.5 to multiply the average with. That gives values well within range for the 1.3 factor found above. You've doubled it's volume by 8. By D&D terms, you've increased it's size by one level. D&D sizes double in size with each category, roughly. A Large creature is roughly twice as big as a Medium one, in general. A Large wolf, we can assume, is going to be roughly the size of a horse, which is also size Large. Note that the largest Wolf value falls (barely) within the Medium size category assigned to wolves. A Large wolf, by definition, is going to be bigger than that. Probably in the region of 12-13 feet long, at a guess, because that's average for a Large creature. Which is why I said it's far beyond the normal range, far enough that it's either a magical mutation, or an entirely separate species that doesn't exist in the real world.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 01:04 PM	Originally posted by toomre 1 Dragons, Tojanidas, Xorns, Bhargest/Grtr Bhargest, Wraith/Dread Wraith, Slaads: which HD/age/size is average and hence an assumable form? 2 Duergar, Drow, Aquatic Elves, etc: they are subraces, not their own seperate race, the most common dwarves are the hill dwarf so only that dwarven form could be assumed? 3 Formians, Giant Ants: most common are workers, are they the average hence only assumable formian and giant ant forms? 4 Horses (War, Heavy, or Light) and Dogs (Riding or not): totally different stat blocks though inarguably the same species, which one would be assumable via wildshape? 5 Elementals of different HD: same species? if so which is average? 6 Hydras with different # of heads: same species? if so which is average? 1) Druids can only shapechange into animals, plant creatures or elementals. The ones you mention are dragons, outsiders (*3), undead and outsider again respectively, and consequently not an issue. 2) humanoids. Not an issue either. 3) Formians are outsiders, giant ants vermin. Not an issue. 4) Same species, obviously not the same breed or race though. You can pick the one you want. 5) The Wildshape description says which sizes are acceptable, hence you get to pick the one you want. 6) Magical beast. Not an issue.
toomre 08-08-04, 01:13 PM	Come on q'afuu, try harder, and read to the end of my email before responding. This discussion is not limited to wildshape or alter self, it equally applies to shapechange and polymorph.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by Thorak 1) You've doubled it's volume by 8. By D&D terms, you've increased it's size by one level. D&D sizes double in size with each category, roughly. 2) Note that the largest Wolf value falls (barely) within the Medium size category assigned to wolves. A Large wolf, by definition, is going to be bigger than that. Probably in the region of 12-13 feet long, at a guess, because that's average for a Large creature. Which is why I said it's far beyond the normal range, far enough that it's either a magical mutation, or an entirely separate species that doesn't exist in the real world. 1) Only if you go up a category through an Enlarge spell or something. Nothing in the rules says that something in one category is always roughly twice as big in all three dimensions as something of a similar species one size category smaller. 2) Large also starts at 500 lbs. If a 4 HD wolf is the largest still somewhat average wolf, that'll correspond to about 200 lbs IRL. A 5 HD one should be 500 lbs or more? A weight increase to 250% of the starting weight with the addition of 1 hit die? Those values are an indication, so you have a decent guideline when creating a monster. They do contradict themselves if you want to compare them consistently to RL creatures.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 01:42 PM	Originally posted by toomre This discussion is not limited to wildshape or alter self, it equally applies to shapechange and polymorph. To me it is, since I go by the MotW explanation of Wildshape. The Shapechange spell is problematic on so many levels that I'm not going to worry overly much about how it's supposed to work, I'm houseruling it anyway.
Egres 08-08-04, 02:43 PM	I think you're unnecessarily getting stuck on the sentences from alter self which are describing the spell's effect on disguise, and yes, a size L wolf is average in the sense that such creatures do exist in the D&D world (ie if you see one you don't automatically assume it's an animal growthed medium wolf), having pink fur however would not be average for that animal and hence you can't choose to have pink fur when you become an advanced or regular wolf. 1)The sentence is taken by the Polimorph part of the article,not Alter self. 2)Ah,then a large wolf is the "average" because they exist in the D&D world? Then,cause there are people so tall that they can enter in the Guinness records,this means they are the "average" for them,even if they are always human?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-08-04, 04:58 PM	To me it is, since I go by the MotW explanation of Wildshape. The Shapechange spell is problematic on so many levels that I'm not going to worry overly much about how it's supposed to work, I'm houseruling it anyway. Then, no offense intended, your arguments are completely irrelevant because most of us aren't talking about an outdated 3.0 supplement, and are instead discussing the more recent CORE BOOK which gives rules for this sort of stuff.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 05:20 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru Then, no offense intended, your arguments are completely irrelevant because most of us aren't talking about an outdated 3.0 supplement, and are instead discussing the more recent CORE BOOK which gives rules for this sort of stuff. Oh, it gives rules, does it? It's exactly those rules that are under question. All my post says is that for me, the scope of the problem is limited to Wildshape. Any issues with underlying spells like Shapechange or Polymorph don't interest me insofar as they don't apply to Wildshape. I mentioned MotW and what it says, I mentioned it's 3.0 and not 3.5 and haven't argued from it since.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-08-04, 06:43 PM	our point is that wildshape in 3.5 is phrased "as Polymorph, except...." Therefore, principles that pertain to polymorph pertain to wildshape, as long as they don't step on the differences. And in order to figure out how things relate to wildshape, one has to figure out how they relate to polymorph, so toomre's arguments still stand.
q'afuu 08-08-04, 06:59 PM	Hey, I commented specifically on 2 of his 6 points already. Feel free to do your part as well. ;)
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-08-04, 08:04 PM	Except I agree with him. If polymorphing advanced forms isn't possible, then all of those things require answers. If polymorphing advanced forms IS possible, then the only thing that needs answering is "Where do the stat increases go?" Therefore, allowing advanced forms is less problematic. Done.
Egres 08-08-04, 08:35 PM	Originally posted by toomre I also think advanced animals are fair game for wildshape. The 20 str wolf which the MotW says is not permitted is not talking about an advanced wolf, an advanced wolf has 21 str, so the 20 str example is not saying in any way anything about advanced wolves. Regarding the troll example from Rules of the Game: trolls are all large and they advance by character classes, huge trolls don't exist. So this example is also not dismissing the possibility of becoming an advanced animal. The spells in question use the words form and kind with consistency, they use the words average and race only once in the alter self section about the disguise modifer, which if you notice in the Rules of the Game is its own seperate bullet (ie pulled away from the rest of its paragraph in the alter self spell desciption), and I think that seperation was intentional. Emphasizing this idea of average or standard, and references to species, breed, or race lead to many difficult to resolve scenarios: Dragons, Tojanidas, Xorns, Bhargest/Grtr Bhargest, Wraith/Dread Wraith, Slaads: which HD/age/size is average and hence an assumable form? Duergar, Drow, Aquatic Elves, etc: they are subraces, not their own seperate race, the most common dwarves are the hill dwarf so only that dwarven form could be assumed? Formians, Giant Ants: most common are workers, are they the average hence only assumable formian and giant ant forms? Horses (War, Heavy, or Light) and Dogs (Riding or not): totally different stat blocks though inarguably the same species, which one would be assumable via wildshape? Elementals of different HD: same species? if so which is average? Hydras with different # of heads: same species? if so which is average?If the advanced animal opponents can come up with a coherent, consistent, and playable rule interpretation that addresses all of these cases and still leaves out advanced animals, then power to you. The advanced animal proponents don't have any homework to do, they can sleep easy knowing that as per their straight forward interpretation all the above forms can legally be assumed. ps. I realize that the examples above aren't about wildshape, but whatever ruling you decide to come to on wildshape must surely apply to all the spells in the alter self spell chain, up to good ol' shapechange. I think there's a simple answer to all of this examples:you must treat all of them as separate creatures,cause they are listed separately. And i'm still waiting for a reply for my previous post.
toomre 08-09-04, 01:47 AM	Originally posted by Egres I think there's a simple answer to all of this examples:you must treat all of them as separate creatures,cause they are listed separately.That's very arbitrary. Seperate listings have nothing to do with anything. Nowhere does it mention that the orgnization and layout of a creature's stats in the MM have any significance. Deep dwarves don't have their own entry, neither do humingbirds: so not allowed, yet you can select the age of the xorn to polymorph into since they have seperate entries? Originally posted by Egres 1)The sentence is taken by the Polimorph part of the article,not Alter self. 2)Ah,then a large wolf is the "average" because they exist in the D&D world? Then,cause there are people so tall that they can enter in the Guinness records,this means they are the "average" for them,even if they are always human? 1)It is in the alter self section of the article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a), and also in the PHB it's only mentioned in the disguise-related paragraph of the alter self spell. 2) That's a good point there. A human male can be 5' to 6'6" (PHB pg. 109), so if you become one via one of these spells that's the range your new form's height must fall into, the fact that the actual height range of real world humans is far greater is not reflected in D&D, so irrelevant. In any case, I believe this "average" stuff has a much narrower context. It's saying that you can't become a stone giant with an afro or a blue unicorn. It is true that if you take the "average" reference in alter self out of the disguise context to which I think it strictly belongs, and if you let it dictate which creatures are allowed, then you'll end up deciding that addvanced forms aren't, since MM specifically says that the extra HD versions of the listed entries are "superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows", hence not average. But if you do decide to put emphasis on the "average" reference, then you must decide somehow which arrwhawk, black dragon, hydra, and so on, is the "average". Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru If polymorphing advanced forms IS possible, then the only thing that needs answering is "Where do the stat increases go?"Hmm.. that is an issue. Okay, so maybe allowing advanced creatures isn't fully fleshed out either, but this is a much simpler to tackle problem than trying to define which are the "average" type for many different creatures in the MM. I haven't found a ruling on this one. I'd think the best houserule would be to not even add these additional ability scores to the base creature's stats when assuming the advanced forms.
q'afuu 08-09-04, 05:12 AM	MM p. 290, Chapter 4: Improving monsters, first line: "Each of the monster entries in chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical creature of its kind". Alter Self mentions that the norms for physical qualities are determined by a form's kind. Hence, since every entry is a different kind, every entry in the MM at least qualifies as an option for Alter Self and similar spells. Subraces do get separate entries (by my reckoning at least), even if not separate stat blocks. Different kinds of Formians or Giant Ants get separate entries, complete with separate stat blocks. Tojanidas, Xorns, Barghest, Wraiths, Slaadi, Elementals, Hydras: same thing - they may all be the same respective species, there are different kinds described within those. The only problem I see is with Dragons. But IMO it's easier to decide that a wyrmling is a different kind of red dragon than a great wyrm (for instance) than it is to have to decide what to do with ability increases.
Egres 08-09-04, 07:15 AM	1)It is in the alter self section of the article, and also in the PHB it's only mentioned in the disguise-related paragraph of the alter self spell. Nope. This is from the Alter self part: You can freely designate the new form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form's significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form's kind. and THIS comes from the Polymorph part: You can freely designate the assumed form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind, just as with the alter self spell.
toomre 08-09-04, 09:06 AM	Egres, I apologize, you are right, it does show up as you have quoted in the polymorph section of the article too. Nonetheless, note that it's again in reference to how it affects disguise ("hair color, hair texture, and skin color"). If you want to be that adamant about it, then you should note that the significant qualities such as "height, weight, and gender" are said to have to fall "within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind." No mention of typical or average, just normal ranges. So since an advanced wolf is still normal as opposed to abnormal (ie. if you see one you won't automatically assume it's a medium wolf enlarged via some magic), then it is legal. I think both you and q'afuu are now grasping at straws, all of sudden the layout in the MM is the significant indicator. This was never mentioned in your earlier posts, then it was about race and species. To attribute significance and meaning to the layout is arbitrary, for instance the Drow have an entry, but the Aquatic Elves don't, juvenile xorns has an entry, but juvenile dogs (puppies) don't. And let's be specific about it: the MM quote "Each of the monster entries in chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical creature of its kind" doesn't mean that the entry is the normal creature of its kind, which would be a much stronger statement, and what it would have to say for this entryology to have the slightest RAW backing.
Egres 08-09-04, 09:15 AM	So since an advanced wolf is still normal as opposed to abnormal (ie. if you see one you won't automatically assume it's a medium wolf enlarged via some magic), then it is legal. IMHO opinion,if i see a wolf 2 times larger than the average,i would think that something strange is going on...and i would never think that that wolf is of average size.
toomre 08-09-04, 09:23 AM	Yes, not average, and you could also say that it's not typical, but could you say that it's not normal? I think we're going in circles. It's apparent that we're not going to convince each other. I guess we will have to wait for a FAQ or a sage answer to put this one to bed, like that uncanny dodge vs feint question.
q'afuu 08-09-04, 09:39 AM	Originally posted by toomre I think both you and q'afuu are now grasping at straws, all of sudden the layout in the MM is the significant indicator. This was never mentioned in your earlier posts, then it was about race and species. Heh. As if the correct use of 'race' and 'species' is even a given in a D&D rulebook. I'm trying to find a rule that works easily. It doesn't have to be completely logical or obvious, just something that fits within what we do know the rules say and is easy to use. The MotW Wildshape explanation is exactly that. IMO, nothing in 3.5 overrules it, so it's good enough for me. Apparently, others feel differently - to each their own.
Egres 08-09-04, 09:41 AM	Originally posted by toomre Yes, not average, and you could also say that it's not typical, but could you say that it's not normal? I think we're going in circles. It's apparent that we're not going to convince each other. I guess we will have to wait for a FAQ or a sage answer to put this one to bed, like that uncanny dodge vs feint question. But the spells talk about "normal range". And yes,i wouldn't think of it as a "normal" wolf. Would you?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-09-04, 10:43 AM	Anything within the range of sizes in the "Advancement" list can be considered normal, because they occur naturally, and presumably often. They mention that anything BEYOND that advancement is more a freak-occurence, but anything within that range is just...a bigger wolf. So yeah, it is normal, and anyone who knows anything about nature (druid perhaps?) would find it to be a completely natural occurence.
Egres 08-09-04, 10:57 AM	http://www.jeffchang.com/anothersocalledblog/archives/yaoming.jpg Well,this chinese guy is "bigger" than many of us. He's tall 7,41506 feet. Not bad for a chinese man. But he's still human. A Druid would consider him "normal":he's not an aberration.:D But would you allow your players to cast Alter Self to become so tall,cause it's "normal" for humans?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-09-04, 12:13 PM	He would fall into the same category as a wolf with more HD than the highest advancement listing. Still "Natural", but incredibly unusual. Anything within the normal advancement is at least ostensibly within the norms.
Thorak 08-09-04, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by q'afuu 1) Only if you go up a category through an Enlarge spell or something. Nothing in the rules says that something in one category is always roughly twice as big in all three dimensions as something of a similar species one size category smaller. 2) Large also starts at 500 lbs. If a 4 HD wolf is the largest still somewhat average wolf, that'll correspond to about 200 lbs IRL. A 5 HD one should be 500 lbs or more? A weight increase to 250% of the starting weight with the addition of 1 hit die? Those values are an indication, so you have a decent guideline when creating a monster. They do contradict themselves if you want to compare them consistently to RL creatures. 1> Since, by Advancing, a creature gets larger, we can assume a 6HD wolf is noticeably bigger than a 4HD wolf. And the 4HD wolf is size Large, and therefore at least 8 feet long. The 6HD wolf would be significantly bigger, probably at least double a normal wolf, if not more. 2> A 4HD wolf is Large, and thus 8 feet long at the minimum. And also 500lbs at the minimum. The largest wolf you mentioned ever existing is still size Medium, and apparently was relatively skinny for it's size. So no, there's no necessary contradiction with anything in reality; the biggest real wolves are probably the 3HD equivalents in the MM. And the 4-6HD ones are bigger than anything the real world has ever seen. By definition. The MM is pretty clear about what sizes are what. Anything between 8-16 feet is Large. Anything between 4 and 8 feet is Medium.
Egres 08-09-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru He would fall into the same category as a wolf with more HD than the highest advancement listing. Still "Natural", but incredibly unusual. Anything within the normal advancement is at least ostensibly within the norms. Are you comparing this guy,that,even being so tall is still an existing creature,to a Large wolf.something you could never see? Then i couldn't become a human so tall,but i can become a Large wolf:the first exists,the second doesn't.
Thorak 08-09-04, 03:30 PM	Originally posted by Egres Are you comparing this guy,that,even being so tall is still an existing creature,to a Large wolf.something you could never see? Entirely irrelevantly, that guy is still within the mechanics for Medium critters, so if he were an Advanced human, he's not advanced far enough to be a size class bigger. And I again point out that the 4-6HD wolves are all larger than anything seen on Earth. This, however, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they exist as a breed in a magical world. We don't have any Dire creatures, either, but they exist in D&D. Just as easily, a 6HD wolf that's 12 feet long could exist, as a species. Using real-world examples to disprove the possibilities of fantastic ones doesn't work. Then i couldn't become a human so tall,but i can become a Large wolf:the first exists,the second doesn't. You couldn't become a human that tall, in theory, because he exceeds the norm for his race. If there were a subrace of humans that were, on average, 7-7.5 feet tall, you could easily take their form. And that's a valid interpretation of Advanced animals, and by biology a better one; these creatures that are larger by orders of magnitude are entirely different breeds, not single mutations. When you get into size differences that large because of genetic mutation, the creature dies because it's genetics can't handle being that big; the lungs and heart aren't relatively large enough to handle it. That's why people with Gigantism die of heart attacks early; their hearts are not large enough to handle being so big. But, if there were a breed of 12 foot long wolves, they've obviously evolved larger hearts to be healthy at that size. So you can't become the first because it's an unusual mutation. You can become the latter because it exists as a separate breed. The various bears are a good example; brown bears are relatively tiny compared to, say, polar bears or kodiaks. Does this mean kodiaks are single mutants? No. It just means their specific breed is bigger.
q'afuu 08-09-04, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Thorak 2> A 4HD wolf is Large, and thus 8 feet long at the minimum. And also 500lbs at the minimum. The largest wolf you mentioned ever existing is still size Medium, and apparently was relatively skinny for it's size. So no, there's no necessary contradiction with anything in reality; the biggest real wolves are probably the 3HD equivalents in the MM. And the 4-6HD ones are bigger than anything the real world has ever seen. By definition. The MM is pretty clear about what sizes are what. Anything between 8-16 feet is Large. Anything between 4 and 8 feet is Medium. The MM doesn't say length is more important than weight when it comes to size category - hence, they're equally correct as measuring stick. A wolf weighing 300 lbs is incredibly fat (not a natural occurence for a predator that habitually travels long distances on foot - or paw, in this case). If that corresponds with a 3 HD wolf, I still don't see how a 4 HD one would correspond with a 500+ lbs specimen. Hence, I can only conclude the values the MM indicates for each size category are merely guidelines, not set in stone, or they don't correspond well with RL.
Egres 08-09-04, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by Thorak Entirely irrelevantly, that guy is still within the mechanics for Medium critters, so if he were an Advanced human, he's not advanced far enough to be a size class bigger. And I again point out that the 4-6HD wolves are all larger than anything seen on Earth. This, however, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they exist as a breed in a magical world. We don't have any Dire creatures, either, but they exist in D&D. Just as easily, a 6HD wolf that's 12 feet long could exist, as a species. Using real-world examples to disprove the possibilities of fantastic ones doesn't work. [b] You couldn't become a human that tall, in theory, because he exceeds the norm for his race. If there were a subrace of humans that were, on average, 7-7.5 feet tall, you could easily take their form. And that's a valid interpretation of Advanced animals, and by biology a better one; these creatures that are larger by orders of magnitude are entirely different breeds, not single mutations. When you get into size differences that large because of genetic mutation, the creature dies because it's genetics can't handle being that big; the lungs and heart aren't relatively large enough to handle it. That's why people with Gigantism die of heart attacks early; their hearts are not large enough to handle being so big. But, if there were a breed of 12 foot long wolves, they've obviously evolved larger hearts to be healthy at that size. So you can't become the first because it's an unusual mutation. You can become the latter because it exists as a separate breed. The various bears are a good example; brown bears are relatively tiny compared to, say, polar bears or kodiaks. Does this mean kodiaks are single mutants? No. It just means their specific breed is bigger. Well,in the forst answer you say that using RL examples doesn't help,than,for the second answer,you talk about "by biology a better one"....
Thorak 08-09-04, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by Egres Well,in the forst answer you say that using RL examples doesn't help,than,for the second answer,you talk about "by biology a better one".... In the former, I was pointing out that real world examples don't necessarily apply. In the latter, I was pointing out that even by the real world, it's incorrect, if someone were to choose to base their arguments on it. Not to mention, the first was pointing out that no wolf in the real world would ever have been considered size Large by D&D terms, and therefore anything that is that large in D&D is obviously outside real-world occurrences. And q'afuu; as earlier pointed out in this thread, volume and therefore weight increases exponentially with linear increases in size. A googled average weight for Grey Wolves, as a standard, gives about 105 lbs as an average weight, and 65 inches in length, including tail, as average length. 65 inches is 5'5". If there were a wolf roughly twice as big in all directions, so almost 11 feet long, it would weigh 8 times as much, so 840lbs. And if we make it half again as much, instead of twice, to approach 8 feet, the weight would be 350lbs. A bit short of the 500lbs for Large critters, admittedly, but not too too far off. And I would say that the size increments should be done by length primarily, not by weight. There've been humans who weighed more than 500lbs, but that's just because they're incredibly fat, not because they're Large. Or, if you think they're equally relevant, then perhaps the theoretical 8-foot long wolf I provided above is the 3HD equivalent; it's long enough to be Large, but not quite burly enough. If it were a foot longer and heavy enough to be 500lbs, then it would be one of the 4HD breed, though it's likely either a really really big 3HD wolf, or a juvenile 4HD wolf, if it's crossing the lines in some way.
Egres 08-09-04, 05:21 PM	or a juvenile 4HD wolf, if it's crossing the lines in some way. Ah,now i see your point of view! You treat the advanced wolves not as advanced wolves! They are a totally different thing for you! But there are no raw supporting your view,are they?
q'afuu 08-09-04, 06:00 PM	Originally posted by Thorak 1) And if we make it half again as much, instead of twice, to approach 8 feet, the weight would be 350lbs. A bit short of the 500lbs for Large critters, admittedly, but not too too far off. 2) And I would say that the size increments should be done by length primarily, not by weight. There've been humans who weighed more than 500lbs, but that's just because they're incredibly fat, not because they're Large. 1) A difference of 30% is 'not too far off'? 2) Did those 500 lb. humans come close to other normal characteristics for medium-sized D&D Humans? Like being able to run at a speed of 120 ft./round, for instance? The system breaks down when considering extremes, it's a simple as that.
Redding MTG Player 08-10-04, 02:37 AM	where does it say a 4 HD wolf is twice as big as a 2 HD one because my 8 HD human druid is the same size as it was at 1 HD, just stronger.
Egres 08-10-04, 03:02 AM	Originally posted by Redding MTG Player where does it say a 4 HD wolf is twice as big as a 2 HD one because my 8 HD human druid is the same size as it was at 1 HD, just stronger. From the SRD: Wolf[...] Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large) Humans don't get larger with more HD.
Thorak 08-10-04, 07:50 AM	Originally posted by q'afuu 1) A difference of 30% is 'not too far off'? 2) Did those 500 lb. humans come close to other normal characteristics for medium-sized D&D Humans? Like being able to run at a speed of 120 ft./round, for instance? The system breaks down when considering extremes, it's a simple as that. 1> Compared to the 200lb 7'+ wolf mentioned earlier as actually existing, yes. Note that I did state later that it didn't fit the bill, and gave two possible ways to rule it. Besides, I was wrong on further inspection. My numbers included the tail, and the Length stat is from nose to the base of the tail. New numbers below. 2> Hence my point. And, if we properly remove the tail length, the average length for a Grey or Timber wolf is 49 inches, just over 4 feet. So, doubling it would make it roughly 8 feet, which would give us the 840 pound weight I gave earlier, making the weight requirement for Large in spades. If you want to reduce the weight slightly to make up for the extra 2 inches, feel free. And that's for a wolf that's double the average size and weight, not any extremes. And Egres; if you'd perhaps thought for two seconds about my post, you'd have realized I meant a juvenile of the 4HD breed of wolf. Which, as I've shown, is at least twice as big as a timber wolf, and my point was irrelevant anyway because I miscalculated. I wasn't treating the advanced critter as not advanced, but as an advanced critter that hadn't reached it's full adult weight.
Egres 08-10-04, 08:48 AM	Originally posted by Thorak And Egres; if you'd perhaps thought for two seconds about my post, you'd have realized I meant a juvenile of the 4HD breed of wolf. Which, as I've shown, is at least twice as big as a timber wolf, and my point was irrelevant anyway because I miscalculated. I wasn't treating the advanced critter as not advanced, but as an advanced critter that hadn't reached it's full adult weight. I think i have understood well your point(but i always could be wrong anyway). You say that a thing like a 4HD juvenile wolf could exist. I don't think so,that's the point. I think there are no rules that can support your view. A Wolf with 4hd is an advanced animal. And since the normal 2hd wolf is an adult,i can't see any rules supporting your view. I could agree with you by a mere logical viewpoint,but according to the RAW,i can't.
Thorak 08-10-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by Egres I think i have understood well your point(but i always could be wrong anyway). You say that a thing like a 4HD juvenile wolf could exist. I don't think so,that's the point. I think there are no rules that can support your view. A Wolf with 4hd is an advanced animal. And since the normal 2hd wolf is an adult,i can't see any rules supporting your view. I could agree with you by a mere logical viewpoint,but according to the RAW,i can't. So when a 4HD Advanced wolf breeds, and has it's Advanced puppies, they start with 4HD at birth? My entire point has been that being Advanced cannot, by any interpretation of the RAW, have to do with age or experience. It's simply not possible for experience (which translates into class levels) to lead to massive growth to twice normal size. Which is what happens with any 4HD plus wolf; Timber Wolves are the biggest 'normal' breed, and they average out to 4 feet long. So double that is the minimum for being Large, which 4HD is. It's simply not possible through normal means. The only reasons for a critter to be Advanced are if it's been mutated, probably through magic, or if it's a separate new breed of Wolf, that really is twice as big as a normal wolf. And either of those make for the possibility of having a 4HD juvenile, especially if it's the 6HD variety of wolf. The RAW doesn't explain what causes Advancement. Therefore we have to interpret the causes based on the rest of the RAW. Age and experience don't cause massive growth, for any creature anywhere. An 80-year old level 30 Epic Wizard isn't size Large, unless he started that way at level 1, or he's been magically mutated along the way. In the same way, a Wolf that starts out medium will always be medium, unless he's magically mutated. Or, he could be Large if he started out as a breed of wolf that gets that big naturally. What you propose is a creation completely outside the RAW, and in defiance of what the RAW has to say about every other creature's aging and gaining experience.
Will Brandiman 08-10-04, 10:55 AM	I would definitely rule that you can only use polymorph, wildshape etc to change into a standard version of a creature, ie the one statted out in the MM. No advanced versions. This was IIRC the way it worked in 3.0 and until such time as someone shows me a specific rule in 3.5 that supercedes this, that's the way I'll carry on playing. In fact, come to think of it, even if someone does show me the relevant rule I'll still carry on playing the same way. As 3.5 itself shows, just because the rules have changed, doesn't mean they have improved.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-10-04, 10:54 PM	I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd prefer that a druid in one of my games that had a tiger companion and thought like a cat be able to turn into a tiger for combat, and advance it as he goes up in levels until he can get dire tiger, rather than be forced to take some other, less fitting form during that time when tiger is no longer that effective and dire tiger isn't available, or else be completely useless. Since the rules are muddy either way, I'm going to make my ruling based on that.
Egres 08-11-04, 01:29 AM	Originally posted by Thorak So when a 4HD Advanced wolf breeds, and has it's Advanced puppies, they start with 4HD at birth? My entire point has been that being Advanced cannot, by any interpretation of the RAW, have to do with age or experience. It's simply not possible for experience (which translates into class levels) to lead to massive growth to twice normal size. Which is what happens with any 4HD plus wolf; Timber Wolves are the biggest 'normal' breed, and they average out to 4 feet long. So double that is the minimum for being Large, which 4HD is. It's simply not possible through normal means. The only reasons for a critter to be Advanced are if it's been mutated, probably through magic, or if it's a separate new breed of Wolf, that really is twice as big as a normal wolf. And either of those make for the possibility of having a 4HD juvenile, especially if it's the 6HD variety of wolf. The RAW doesn't explain what causes Advancement. Therefore we have to interpret the causes based on the rest of the RAW. Age and experience don't cause massive growth, for any creature anywhere. An 80-year old level 30 Epic Wizard isn't size Large, unless he started that way at level 1, or he's been magically mutated along the way. In the same way, a Wolf that starts out medium will always be medium, unless he's magically mutated. Or, he could be Large if he started out as a breed of wolf that gets that big naturally. What you propose is a creation completely outside the RAW, and in defiance of what the RAW has to say about every other creature's aging and gaining experience. I can't understand why you can't simply consider them as i consider that basketball player:these large wolves are simply advanced wolves:in other words,they are wolves,that,for natural reasons,are bigger than the average,as the basketball player is,but they can't be considered as average wolves.Period. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd prefer that a druid in one of my games that had a tiger companion and thought like a cat be able to turn into a tiger for combat, and advance it as he goes up in levels until he can get dire tiger, rather than be forced to take some other, less fitting form during that time when tiger is no longer that effective and dire tiger isn't available, or else be completely useless. I would agree with you,and in fact i'm here playing devil's advocate to find a rule that support this way of playing it.:D
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-11-04, 02:18 AM	For that basketball player to be considered large size category, he would need to be about 4 feet taller and weigh about 2 or 3 hundred pounds heavier. So the example really doesn't stand. The large wolf and the medium wolf are well outside the variance parameters for most mammalian species from each other. In order to be THAT different from each other, they would have to be either mutants (which would be a rather strange thing to list as a common encounter), different species (which would make a good case for being able to polymorph them), or at the very least, different breeds, like domesticated dogs (which would make a good, but not AS good case for being able to polymorph them.) Also, keep in mind that dogs are NOT normal. The only reason they have as much size and breed variance as they do is that we selectively bred them over thousands of years. That would've never happened naturally.
Redding MTG Player 08-11-04, 02:52 AM	wizards said there are no rules for this and it is completely up to DM; I don't really see this as being that big of a deal seeing as you can become a 5 HD something else instead of a wolf. oh and in MM 2 it says that the listed creatures are the weakest or most common form and that they should be able to advance to 3 times the minimum hit die amout. This makes me think that the entries are not fully matured and that they can easily become much larger than the listed version.
Egres 08-11-04, 03:58 AM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru For that basketball player to be considered large size category, he would need to be about 4 feet taller and weigh about 2 or 3 hundred pounds heavier. So the example really doesn't stand. The large wolf and the medium wolf are well outside the variance parameters for most mammalian species from each other. In order to be THAT different from each other, they would have to be either mutants (which would be a rather strange thing to list as a common encounter), different species (which would make a good case for being able to polymorph them), or at the very least, different breeds, like domesticated dogs (which would make a good, but not AS good case for being able to polymorph them.) Also, keep in mind that dogs are NOT normal. The only reason they have as much size and breed variance as they do is that we selectively bred them over thousands of years. That would've never happened naturally. Actually,in the Italian PHB glossary,a large creature starts from 7,8440 feet,and then that Basket ball player is VERY near to be of large size,he wouldn't need to be "about 4 feet taller".
Egres 08-11-04, 04:00 AM	Originally posted by Redding MTG Player wizards said there are no rules for this and it is completely up to DM; I don't really see this as being that big of a deal seeing as you can become a 5 HD something else instead of a wolf. oh and in MM 2 it says that the listed creatures are the weakest or most common form and that they should be able to advance to 3 times the minimum hit die amout. This makes me think that the entries are not fully matured and that they can easily become much larger than the listed version. Right.the most common.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-11-04, 10:04 AM	Actually,in the Italian PHB glossary,a large creature starts from 7,8440 feet,and then that Basket ball player is VERY near to be of large size,he wouldn't need to be "about 4 feet taller". Umm...I realize that english is not your first language, but you just said that large creatures are over a MILE AND A HALF tall. So I have no idea where you were going with that. Right.the most common. Well, for 20 minutes or so in summer, the most common form of sea turtle is the size of my hand. Because they've all just hatched, and there are a million of them. During that 20 minutes, should anyone attempting to polymorph a sea turtle turn into a baby? Edit: Another thread just reminded me of another good argument for the idea that advanced animals are separate species. When advancing an animal companion, and adding animal hit dice to it, which equate to experience, druid animal companions do NOT gain size categories. This implies that no matter how experienced an animal gets, he doesn't grow beyond the parameters for his species. This makes perfect sense because if one became freakishly large for one's species, one's constitution would actually DECREASE, because one's internal organs would start to fail. However, if your species is NATURALLY that size, then no problem.
Thorak 08-11-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru Umm...I realize that english is not your first language, but you just said that large creatures are over a MILE AND A HALF tall. So I have no idea where you were going with that. IIRC, some of the European conventions for numbers use commas instead of periods to represent fractional numbers. He meant a number just short of 8 feet, 7.8440 feet by American convention. Likely because his PHB is done in metric, again due to different conventions. Well, for 20 minutes or so in summer, the most common form of sea turtle is the size of my hand. Because they've all just hatched, and there are a million of them. During that 20 minutes, should anyone attempting to polymorph a sea turtle turn into a baby? Edit: Another thread just reminded me of another good argument for the idea that advanced animals are separate species. When advancing an animal companion, and adding animal hit dice to it, which equate to experience, druid animal companions do NOT gain size categories. This implies that no matter how experienced an animal gets, he doesn't grow beyond the parameters for his species. This makes perfect sense because if one became freakishly large for one's species, one's constitution would actually DECREASE, because one's internal organs would start to fail. However, if your species is NATURALLY that size, then no problem. Exactly my point. The 4-6HD Advanced Wolves in the PHB are larger than any wolf has ever been in the real world. There are only two valid explanations; magical mutations, making them unique and theoretically not available as druid wildshape forms, or they're separate species. And I favor the separate species explanation, because it seems too common, as rare as it is, to just be magical mutation. Think of them as the stages of evolution between normal, real-world-type wolves, and Dire Wolves. Or at least different evolutionary paths along that same route.
Egres 08-11-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Thorak IIRC, some of the European conventions for numbers use commas instead of periods to represent fractional numbers. He meant a number just short of 8 feet, 7.8440 feet by American convention. Likely because his PHB is done in metric, again due to different conventions. Right. Exactly my point. The 4-6HD Advanced Wolves in the PHB are larger than any wolf has ever been in the real world. There are only two valid explanations; magical mutations, making them unique and theoretically not available as druid wildshape forms, or they're separate species. And I favor the separate species explanation, because it seems too common, as rare as it is, to just be magical mutation. Think of them as the stages of evolution between normal, real-world-type wolves, and Dire Wolves. Or at least different evolutionary paths along that same route. I simply see them like very rare wolves:is this view so difficult to accept? Rare,obviously in D&D terms:they can't exist in real life,but can exist in D&D,however being rare.
toomre 08-11-04, 04:38 PM	I had promised myself to stay out of this thread, but I had to jump in to add something that should wrap it up. I wonder how we all missed this clear position taken by Skip in his article after so many readings, unless the article changed on us between the time this thread began and now. From the second page of Skip's article: "Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk." The bolding is mine. The lizardfolk exmaple doesn't add any value since lizardfolk like most humanoids advace by class, not by HD/size, but I included it since it was part of the same paragraph. I dislike this ruling from both a mechanical and roleplaying perspective, I've been in agreement with the allow-advanced-animals camp all along, and had it been just for core WotC material I would not relinquish that position as I still believe that RAW leans more toward that position. It makes more sense to me, and it's not like it opens up the door to any new abuse. However, when RAW is ambiguous it's common practice to accept Skip's emails/articles as the tie-breaker. Let's not turn this thread into one about house-rules, we have the RAW-light answer.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-11-04, 05:16 PM	Right. So there the ruling is. If you listen really closely, you can actually HEAR me disregarding that and houseruling it. But that is neither here nor there.
Thorak 08-11-04, 08:09 PM	Originally posted by Egres I simply see them like very rare wolves:is this view so difficult to accept? Rare,obviously in D&D terms:they can't exist in real life,but can exist in D&D,however being rare. I liken your "rare" argument to my "magical mutation" argument. I never said it wasn't a valid interpretation, just that I personally preferred the species one. Though in light of toomre's post, I may have to revise my opinion regarding the official opinion, and as Khaibit implied, houserule around it. But I'll be arguing based on the official position when discussing it here on the boards.
iN.fuSioN 08-14-04, 05:15 PM	I won't delve into rules on this, as i never thought of that possibility (wildshaping into advanced animals) so i've never really looked for anything to back it up. Using common sense, there is no reason why it shouldn't be allowed (i am considering this to be a gray area, therefore not clearly covered by RAW). Wildshaping into advanced versions would usually result in worst results, as the special abilities of the creatures are just weaker when compared to those of a biger animal. So there is nothing unbalanced as far as i can see. And Snow Savant said you can, so i always stick to what she defends unless it is something really over the top. She REALLY knows the rules. I would even dare to say she knows a lot more than all of us togheter easily.
Egres 08-14-04, 05:54 PM	Originally posted by iN.fuSioN And Snow Savant said you can, so i always stick to what she defends unless it is something really over the top. She REALLY knows the rules. I would even dare to say she knows a lot more than all of us togheter easily. Who?:confused:
deathmaster35 08-15-04, 12:56 AM	Being large doesnt mean you are twice the size of something medim. A gnoll is a 7 foot tall medium creture and a minotaur is a 7 foot tall large creature... You can also have a 4'7'' 82 lb elf that is medium and a 6'10'' 420 lb half-orc that is medium. This half orc is sure twice the size of the elf, but is still medium. As far as we know the wolves are borderline large already, so when they get a little bigger they cross into large. Then again, maybe the higher hit die wolves are just larger breeds. Using real world wolves as examples wont really work, what if these wolves are based on breeds that dont exsist today? remember that wolves are virtually extinct in Europe due to humans killing them off, many breeds were wiped out. If you take a look at tiger, the base size is large and they advance into huge. In the real world, a bangle tiger is large and a full grown siberian tiger would be huge. So just ask yourself, would you not let a druid change into a huge tiger just because they didnt make a new entry in the monster manual for each breed of tiger when there are tigers in the real world that would classify as "huge"?
Egres 08-15-04, 04:33 AM	If you take a look at tiger, the base size is large and they advance into huge. In the real world, a bangle tiger is large and a full grown siberian tiger would be huge In this site (http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-tiger.html) ,the Siberian tiger,the larger among tigers,is far littler than a Huge creature. According to my PHB(the Italian edition) a Huge creature starts from 4.8 meters(15.74 feet) but the Siberian tiger is no larger than 3.3 meters.(10.82 feet).
Thorak 08-15-04, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by deathmaster35 Being large doesnt mean you are twice the size of something medim. A gnoll is a 7 foot tall medium creture and a minotaur is a 7 foot tall large creature... The minotaur also weighs more than twice as much as the Gnoll. The Gnoll is on the lanky tall side of Medium, and the Minotaur is on the short and stubby side of Large. And technically, Minotaurs aren't 7 feet tall. They're more than 7 feet tall, according to the MM. That could be 7'1", or that could be 15'11". And given that they weigh 700lbs, they're meeting the Large requirement in weight if not in height. But, on average, a Large creature is twice the size of a Medium creature. Because Medium is from 4-8 feet tall or long, and Large is from 8-16 feet. An average Medium creature is 6 feet, and an average Large creature is 12 feet; twice as big. You can also have a 4'7'' 82 lb elf that is medium and a 6'10'' 420 lb half-orc that is medium. This half orc is sure twice the size of the elf, but is still medium. No, he's about half again as big, height-wise. And again, you're comparing extremes within the size category. As far as we know the wolves are borderline large already, so when they get a little bigger they cross into large. Then again, maybe the higher hit die wolves are just larger breeds. Using real world wolves as examples wont really work, what if these wolves are based on breeds that dont exsist today? remember that wolves are virtually extinct in Europe due to humans killing them off, many breeds were wiped out. If you take a look at tiger, the base size is large and they advance into huge. In the real world, a bangle tiger is large and a full grown siberian tiger would be huge. It has to be assumed that the 'normal' animals are the same as earth-based animals. A Polar Bear in D&D is the same as a Polar Bear in the real world. Advanced versions, however, are not necessarily real creatures. And going by real-world sizes, a wolf is about 4 feet long, minus tail (which is how D&D sizes work; length is nose to base of tail). So they're Medium, but barely. And a Large wolf is going to be, by definition, twice that. And a 6HD wolf, since more HD means more size, is going to be even bigger. And as Egres said, Siberian Tigers in no way fit the requirements for being Huge. Not even close. They're middlin-sized Large. So just ask yourself, would you not let a druid change into a huge tiger just because they didnt make a new entry in the monster manual for each breed of tiger when there are tigers in the real world that would classify as "huge"? But there aren't breeds of tiger in the real world that would classify as Huge. Though I agree that, if it's a new breed in D&D, it should be an available option for Wildshape. But the argument could also be made that Advanced critters are unique mutations, probably due to accidental magical effects, or purposeful experimentation. I personally favour the former, but in the latter case, it could be argued that they are in no way 'normal' and thus not available as a wildshape form. If you want an example of a real-world big size differential, look at Chihuahuas and Saint Bernards. Chihuahuas would be size Diminutive or Tiny at most, and St Bernards would be Medium, that's 2-3 size categories of difference. But they're both Dogs. It's just that, in the real world, it's easier to breed smaller creatures than bigger ones, due to biological reasons (get too big, and the heart isn't big enough to handle the extra weight, for instance, and it's hard to breed for heart size). In D&D, that's not necessarily true, and thus we have Advanced animals.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-15-04, 05:50 PM	I'm guessing they're separate species. After all, if dire creatures are supposedly more primitive, prehistoric creatures, then there would need to be intermediate species. Not to mention crossbreeds. Because you can't say that a dire tiger and a normal tiger are so far apart genetically that they coudn't interbreed. Not necessarily fertile-ly, but there's nothing saying you can't wildshape mules, and they're the same deal.
deathmaster35 08-16-04, 01:00 AM	From the zoo webiste pointed out: Siberian or Amur tiger Panthera tigris altaica— The largest of the tiger subspecies, males can be as long as a station wagon! These tigers also have the palest orange coat and the fewest stripes. Now go look around at some care companies webistes for the length of a station wagon, they are around 15 feet long. Also, he length given is from front legs to back legs. Quadrapeds are messured from leg to leg, a large Siberian male would be 10.8 feet from leg to leg. This means in D&D terms he would take up more than 10 feet so would have to be large. ""No, he's about half again as big, height-wise. And again, you're comparing extremes within the size category."" The example is half again as tall, the half-orc is twice as big. We are talking about three dimentions, not two. As you pointed out, the minotaur is about the same height as a gnoll, but weighs alot more. Now take a look at a bugbear though, also about 7 feet tall, and now about twice as wide as a gnoll and yet still medium. A bugbear is probably about as big as you can get and still be medium, the smallest end of large is almost medium. ""But, on average, a Large creature is twice the size of a Medium creature. Because Medium is from 4-8 feet tall or long, and Large is from 8-16 feet. An average Medium creature is 6 feet, and an average Large creature is 12 feet; twice as big."" the 6 and 12 would be height, not length. A long creature will hit large before a tall creature would because it takes up more area on the ground. Something that is 7 feet tall can still be medium, something that is 7 feet long would be large. Then another point is that the wolves in europe were larger than the wolves of north america, with the exception of the "Dire wolf" which was a real wolf that is now extinct. It all comes down to the fact that animals have subspecies, and no one should expect game developers to give you the stats for every subspecies of an animal. They gave it for a few, like bears and horses though.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-16-04, 03:26 AM	What is with 3rd edition and players trying to abuse the hell out of any and every rule in the book. The answer as always is: it's legal if your DM is dumb enough to allow it. Come on people, like druids need a boost... :rolleyes:
Egres 08-16-04, 04:19 AM	Originally posted by deathmaster35 From the zoo webiste pointed out: Siberian or Amur tiger Panthera tigris altaica— The largest of the tiger subspecies, males can be as long as a station wagon! These tigers also have the palest orange coat and the fewest stripes. Now go look around at some care companies webistes for the length of a station wagon, they are around 15 feet long. Also, he length given is from front legs to back legs. Quadrapeds are messured from leg to leg, a large Siberian male would be 10.8 feet from leg to leg. This means in D&D terms he would take up more than 10 feet so would have to be large. From the Discovery Channel site (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tigers/plight/plight.html) : DESCRIPTION: Also known as the Siberian or Manchurian tiger, the Amur is the largest of the great cats. The least striped of all the subspecies. Males measure 8-feet-10-inches to 10-feet-10-inches long and weigh 419 to 675 pounds; females average 7-feet-11-inches to 9-feet long and weigh 221 to 368 pounds
Thorak 08-16-04, 06:25 AM	Originally posted by deathmaster35 ""But, on average, a Large creature is twice the size of a Medium creature. Because Medium is from 4-8 feet tall or long, and Large is from 8-16 feet. An average Medium creature is 6 feet, and an average Large creature is 12 feet; twice as big."" the 6 and 12 would be height, not length. A long creature will hit large before a tall creature would because it takes up more area on the ground. Something that is 7 feet tall can still be medium, something that is 7 feet long would be large. Nitpick. According to the MM, the sizes are listed according to Dimension, in the table on page 314. Dimension being Height for bipedal critters, and Length for quadrupeds. A critter 7 feet long and weighing, say, 400lbs is still clearly Medium by the chart, not Large. Long creatures and tall creatures change sizes at the exact same comparative height and length; the only caveat is that length doesn't include tail.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-16-04, 12:16 PM	What is with 3rd edition and players trying to abuse the hell out of any and every rule in the book. The answer as always is: it's legal if your DM is dumb enough to allow it. Come on people, like druids need a boost... And if you'd thought for three seconds, instead of just deciding we were all munchkins and power-gamers, you'd realize that the ability to do this is NOT a boost. It's the ability to keep the flavor of a particular favorite form through higher levels without becoming completely ineffective. If this isn't allowed, then one can always just us a different form every level as the HD and size cap goes up, in order to keep up with the curve, and creatures that naturally have higher HD usually have better ability scores and special abilities anyway, so THAT would be the munchkin thing to do. But where's the flavor in that?
fractal 08-16-04, 10:30 PM	I would assume that advanced creatures are uniquely strong/tough/big specimens of a species. We have analogues in the real world, for example, "the big one that got away". Since you can't Polymorph into unusual humans (for example, a weightlifter with 18 Str), why would you be able to become an unusual animal?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-16-04, 11:36 PM	you can find the arguments for both sides of that, fractal, by reading the thread you just posted on. I don't really feel like rehashing them again. Mind you, there's no sarcasm, ire, or bitterness in what I just said. I mean no offense. Just to say that your point has already been made, and is being argued. It's not quite as clear as you think it is.
fractal 08-17-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru you can find the arguments for both sides of that, fractal, by reading the thread you just posted on. I don't really feel like rehashing them again. Mind you, there's no sarcasm, ire, or bitterness in what I just said. I mean no offense. Just to say that your point has already been made, and is being argued. It's not quite as clear as you think it is. Fair enough, I'll do that. Normally I do read the entire thread first, this time I was lazy - perhaps a mistake. Apologies.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-17-04, 03:16 AM	hee hee. None needed. I was actually trying to be helpful, and lazy at the same time. But because tone doesn't get conveyed well in text, I had to write a small disclaimer for myself.