Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 09-04-04, 09:27 AM	Maybe this is a houserule, but is there any reason why you can't substitute Imporved Toughness wherever Toughness is required? Example: Dwarven Defender uses Toughness...can I substitute Improved Toughness for its requirement?
Lady Ishtar 09-04-04, 09:35 AM	i would say no, as the two feats are significantly different. toughness you just take and regret wasting a feat afterwards. improved toughness is a git that keeps on giving. but i suppose you could substitute toughness for one of the toughness feats from Masters of the Wild, as they are more similar to the standard toughness.
Frank the Vandal 09-04-04, 10:28 AM	I wouldn't allow it. Toughness is a pretty weak feat (except maybe at very low levels), and that's the reason why it acts as a balancing factor if a powerful PrC uses it as a prerequisite. If you allow players to take a better feat instead of toughness, you're basically making the costs of taking that PrC lower.
Deladrion Garthin 09-04-04, 12:10 PM	In my games, we allow generally allow Improved Toughness and the other 'Toughness' feats to be used in place of Toughness. My reasoning is that I don't look at feats as a 'cost' you pay to recieve the benefits of a PrC. I look at feats more as a guideline that tells me what kind of characters can take the PrC. To me, Toughness just means that a character has to be tougher (have more HP) than average. If the character has Improved Toughness or Dragon's Toughness or something similar, then by all means, they've met that requirement.
Shadowfoot 09-04-04, 12:15 PM	I was going to say yes, but Lady Ishtar is right. Toughness is one of those feats that, in the large run, has minimum impact. Which, like Skill Focus and some other feats, makes it a more costly/less valuable feat to take. Which is computed into the requirements of prestige classes. You sacrifice one of your feats to a degree when you take Toughness, and that cost becomes null and void in you substitute the more powerful Toughness.
Xeven the Mighty 09-04-04, 12:18 PM	What exactly do Improved Toughness and Dragon's Toughness do?
Shadowfoot 09-04-04, 12:23 PM	Improved Toughness grants +1hp/level; strangely (and wrongly, imo) it doesn't require Toughness as a prerequisite. It does have a minimal Fortitude save requirement. Can't imagine why you'd take Toughness when Improved Toughness exists. Dragon's Toughness is 3E and grants +12hp; you need a very high Fortitude modifier (over +10) to take it.
Xeven the Mighty 09-04-04, 12:29 PM	Wow. Those are nice. I would say that neither should be a substitute for the Toughness requirement, as they are both a whole lot better than normal Toughness. In fact, both of those feats should require toughness... Oh, wait... Forgot another form of Toughness: Dwarve's Toughness... What exactly does that do?
Shadowfoot 09-04-04, 12:32 PM	Oh, wait... Forgot another form of Toughness: Dwarve's Toughness... What exactly does that do? It grants +6hp. There are three or four X'S Toughness feats from Masters of the Wild, each granting +3hp more and each requiring a higher Fortitude save.
Stuntman 09-04-04, 12:44 PM	You cannot use other feats to replace Toughness as a prerequesite. The reason is that PrC's have this as a cost to qualify. The cost is that you need to take the Toughness feat instead of a feat that you may find more useful. If you allow replacement of feats as prerequesites, you end up making the class more powerful.
Wolf72 09-04-04, 03:39 PM	Oh, wait... Forgot another form of Toughness: Dwarve's Toughness... What exactly does that do? don't forget Giant's Toughness ... which gives +9 hp (dwarf's = +6, and dragon's = +12) not sure of the fort saves for each though.