Canny/Unfettered Defense and Feint [Archive] - Wizards Community

Canny/Unfettered Defense and Feint [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lanoitakude
08-31-04, 02:01 PM This may have been discussed earlier, but the search option is still disabled.

Do the two stack (canny defense and unfettered defense)? As in, would you be allowed to add your Int bonus twice to your AC? Or would they just overlap? I believe the do not stack, but I'd like some clarification.

(Canny Defense is a Duelist class feature pg 185 DMG)
(Unfettered Defense is a Invisible Blade class feature pg 45 Complete Warrior)

Another related question:
With the Uncanny Feint (free action) class feature, could someone make a full attack with each attack catching your opponent flat-footed? As in, is it possible to make your feints inbetween each attack in a sequence?
Divel Unwin
08-31-04, 02:26 PM Well, according to the PHB when you fient, "your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it."

Since a full attack action is more then a single melee attack, you'd only get that small window to get one hit in, even though you are capable of more strikes in a round. The real benifit being, with Uncanny Fient, that you can now use a full attack action with your first melee attack treating your enemy as flat footed.

As for the other question, whether Canny Defense and Unfettered Defense stack, they seem to be the exact same extraordinary ability (except for requiring a small blade in hand for the Unfettered Def.). Now, I don't know what the rule exactly is on this, but as a DM I wouldn't allow it. But to each their own. ;)
Bantam
08-31-04, 06:05 PM I think he's asking if he can feint several times in a round: once before each attack of a full attack action so the target loses his Dex bonus for each attack. I'd allow it since you're usually able to do a free action between attacks (ie quick draw a weapon as per throwing daggers).
crow0495
08-31-04, 06:43 PM I remember this one. I had asked it myself once. The overwhelming response was that they do not stack. The reason given was because of the bonus type. ie, defense bonus, morale bonus, dodge bonus. Two different items or special abilities with the same bonus type do not stack. However, your gm does have final ruling. If for example your bonus came from Int and Wis, my gm said they could stack.
Lanoitakude
08-31-04, 10:47 PM Thanks for the responses.

I like the example Bantam gave on the Feint question, I think that justifies feinting inbetween attacks.

As for the double INT bonus to AC, I didn't think they stacked, infact, it doesn't make sense if they stacked, I just wanted some confirmation on it.

Thanks again.

*Raises mug* "Here's to the Rogue dealing 70d6 damage per round!"
(lvl 20 + two-weapon fighting feats + uncanny feint [free action])
Encard
08-31-04, 10:58 PM *Nod* Yeah, sounds about right... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use a free-action feint more than once a round.

Now, as for 70d6 damage... Well, just hope the character doesn't have Sadism spell (BoVD) affecting them at that point. Now that'd be nasty...
Lanoitakude
09-01-04, 01:17 AM Wow, just looked up Sadism. Boy, I may have to take levels in Assassin now (I'm playing as the Rogue in question).
fractal
09-01-04, 02:44 AM I remember this one. I had asked it myself once. The overwhelming response was that they do not stack. The reason given was because of the bonus type. ie, defense bonus, morale bonus, dodge bonus. Two different items or special abilities with the same bonus type do not stack. However, your gm does have final ruling. If for example your bonus came from Int and Wis, my gm said they could stack.
Actually, I recall reading a thread or two about this, and there was no overwhelming response at all. It was argued both ways.

Actually, come to think of it, that was Bladesinger vs Duelist. Bladesinger adds class level, limited by Int, Duelist adds Int, limited by class level. So, it's not quite the same situation.

However, Canny Defense and Unfettered Defense are different class abilities that grant bonuses without types. There's no reason to assume they wouldn't stack.
Ithilorien
09-01-04, 02:48 AM Bladesong, Canny Defense, Unfettered Defense, Apparent Defense, and even the Monk's wisdom to armor class bonus all are dodge bonuses.

This means they can all stack with each other.
fractal
09-01-04, 02:50 AM *Nod* Yeah, sounds about right... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use a free-action feint more than once a round.
Be careful. We discussed this with the designer of the class back on the Accessories board. If you don't institute some sort of limitation on the ability, then you may find players "taking 400" for each attack. That's pretty ridiculous.

The best limitations we could come up with were either, cap the number of attempts per round as equal to your Dex bonus, or else just get one feint attempt per individual attack.
Moxxin
09-01-04, 03:01 AM quick question about the unfettered defense bonuse dose it stack with bracers of armor bonuse or not?
Ithilorien
09-01-04, 03:05 AM Dodge bonuses always stack, even with each other. As bracers of armor provide an armor bonus to AC it would indeed stack with unfettered Defense.
Lanoitakude
09-01-04, 11:45 PM In response to Fractal, I completely agree about that limitation. I plan on allowing only one attempt per attack, if it fails, no sneak attack for that attack.

Oh yeah, let's boost that 70d6 to 90d6 (speed weapons).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanoitakude 08-31-04, 02:01 PM	This may have been discussed earlier, but the search option is still disabled. Do the two stack (canny defense and unfettered defense)? As in, would you be allowed to add your Int bonus twice to your AC? Or would they just overlap? I believe the do not stack, but I'd like some clarification. (Canny Defense is a Duelist class feature pg 185 DMG) (Unfettered Defense is a Invisible Blade class feature pg 45 Complete Warrior) Another related question: With the Uncanny Feint (free action) class feature, could someone make a full attack with each attack catching your opponent flat-footed? As in, is it possible to make your feints inbetween each attack in a sequence?
Divel Unwin 08-31-04, 02:26 PM	Well, according to the PHB when you fient, "your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it." Since a full attack action is more then a single melee attack, you'd only get that small window to get one hit in, even though you are capable of more strikes in a round. The real benifit being, with Uncanny Fient, that you can now use a full attack action with your first melee attack treating your enemy as flat footed. As for the other question, whether Canny Defense and Unfettered Defense stack, they seem to be the exact same extraordinary ability (except for requiring a small blade in hand for the Unfettered Def.). Now, I don't know what the rule exactly is on this, but as a DM I wouldn't allow it. But to each their own. ;)
Bantam 08-31-04, 06:05 PM	I think he's asking if he can feint several times in a round: once before each attack of a full attack action so the target loses his Dex bonus for each attack. I'd allow it since you're usually able to do a free action between attacks (ie quick draw a weapon as per throwing daggers).
crow0495 08-31-04, 06:43 PM	I remember this one. I had asked it myself once. The overwhelming response was that they do not stack. The reason given was because of the bonus type. ie, defense bonus, morale bonus, dodge bonus. Two different items or special abilities with the same bonus type do not stack. However, your gm does have final ruling. If for example your bonus came from Int and Wis, my gm said they could stack.
Lanoitakude 08-31-04, 10:47 PM	Thanks for the responses. I like the example Bantam gave on the Feint question, I think that justifies feinting inbetween attacks. As for the double INT bonus to AC, I didn't think they stacked, infact, it doesn't make sense if they stacked, I just wanted some confirmation on it. Thanks again. Raises mug "Here's to the Rogue dealing 70d6 damage per round!" (lvl 20 + two-weapon fighting feats + uncanny feint [free action])
Encard 08-31-04, 10:58 PM	Nod Yeah, sounds about right... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use a free-action feint more than once a round. Now, as for 70d6 damage... Well, just hope the character doesn't have Sadism spell (BoVD) affecting them at that point. Now that'd be nasty...
Lanoitakude 09-01-04, 01:17 AM	Wow, just looked up Sadism. Boy, I may have to take levels in Assassin now (I'm playing as the Rogue in question).
fractal 09-01-04, 02:44 AM	I remember this one. I had asked it myself once. The overwhelming response was that they do not stack. The reason given was because of the bonus type. ie, defense bonus, morale bonus, dodge bonus. Two different items or special abilities with the same bonus type do not stack. However, your gm does have final ruling. If for example your bonus came from Int and Wis, my gm said they could stack. Actually, I recall reading a thread or two about this, and there was no overwhelming response at all. It was argued both ways. Actually, come to think of it, that was Bladesinger vs Duelist. Bladesinger adds class level, limited by Int, Duelist adds Int, limited by class level. So, it's not quite the same situation. However, Canny Defense and Unfettered Defense are different class abilities that grant bonuses without types. There's no reason to assume they wouldn't stack.
Ithilorien 09-01-04, 02:48 AM	Bladesong, Canny Defense, Unfettered Defense, Apparent Defense, and even the Monk's wisdom to armor class bonus all are dodge bonuses. This means they can all stack with each other.
fractal 09-01-04, 02:50 AM	Nod Yeah, sounds about right... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use a free-action feint more than once a round. Be careful. We discussed this with the designer of the class back on the Accessories board. If you don't institute some sort of limitation on the ability, then you may find players "taking 400" for each attack. That's pretty ridiculous. The best limitations we could come up with were either, cap the number of attempts per round as equal to your Dex bonus, or else just get one feint attempt per individual attack.
Moxxin 09-01-04, 03:01 AM	quick question about the unfettered defense bonuse dose it stack with bracers of armor bonuse or not?
Ithilorien 09-01-04, 03:05 AM	Dodge bonuses always stack, even with each other. As bracers of armor provide an armor bonus to AC it would indeed stack with unfettered Defense.
Lanoitakude 09-01-04, 11:45 PM	In response to Fractal, I completely agree about that limitation. I plan on allowing only one attempt per attack, if it fails, no sneak attack for that attack. Oh yeah, let's boost that 70d6 to 90d6 (speed weapons).