Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scottbert 10-14-07, 11:50 PM	I had an idea for a new type of magic item. I'm posting this in the class subforum because I can see a class being based around it. Weapons, possibly only magic weapons, can be built or retrofitted with a mechanism that holds and activates cartridges. While these cartridges bear passing resemblance to those used in firearms, they do not fire bullets -- they contain magic that is activated when they are 'fired'. For example, a flaming cartridge might, when activated, grant the weapon the flaming property for a round (or perhaps more). The cartridge's magic is expended when activated -- they are one-use items. Elaborations on the idea: More powerful cartridges might have effects such as greater weapon enhancements, or effects that last more than a round -- or perhaps they even channel spells. Combining cartridges: If your weapon's mechanism is semiautomatic, you may be able to activate more than one cartridge in sequence. If, for example, you have a six-chamber revolver mechanism, you could activate six flaming cartridges at once and gain 6d6 fire damage for a single round (There should definately be some cap on this)! Or three +1 cartridges and three flaming cartridges for +3 to hit/damage and 3d6 fire damage. This should probably only be allowed with cartridges that last for a single round or maybe even only for a single attack (or, combining cartridges overloads the magic and so it only lasts until the first time you hit something). Certainly you shouldn't be allowed to load up on, say, shocking grasp channel cartridges and do 30d6 electricity damage in a single attack. A +1 cartridge and a shocking grasp cartridge, maybe. Edit: Perhaps there is a metamagic channel cartridge which can be combined with a spellchanneling cartridge to provide a metamagic effect like empowering? when combined? Any-channel cartridge: Grants you channeling of _any_ spell (you must provide it -- this is for fighting mages only!). Implementation: This is what I need help with. One idea is to have a feat, Craft Cartridge, that allows casters to craft these cartridges... but what the prerequisites should be, and the mechanics involved should be, I have no idea. It seems reasonable to me to have the ability consist of a feat that allows those who take it to craft the cartridges, as well as retrofit weapons with the cartridge-using mechanism, or build weapons with it if they have the appropriate craft skills. Alternatively, it could be the class feature of a single class. Perhaps the class learns to make different kinds of cartridges (single-round, multiple-round, spell-channeling) at different levels and gains abilities like combining them or squeezing more magic out of them at different levels... Alternatively, they could have the feat as a prerequisite or bonus feat and learn to do even better things than the feat alone allows as they gain levels in the class. Hmm. It occurs to me that these cartridges are sort of like consumable, single-use augment crystals... That might provide some idea as to how to balance them. Yes, this is blatantly inspired by the velka magic cartridge systems used in some Devices in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. Finally, I'd like to note that I intend this to be usable in D20 Modern as well as in D&D, or at least easily adapted. My intent is to propose it to my GM for use in a fantasy-themed D20 Past game he'll be running in a few weeks.
runestar 10-14-07, 11:55 PM	I am guessing they are simply 1-shot wondrous items which either produce a very powerful spell effect, or somehow augments the spells you cast (like metamagic rods). There is the problem of excessive usage resulting in backlash, though that problem does not reveal itself until StrikerS.:P
vorpo 10-14-07, 11:58 PM	Somehow this gives me the feeling of that anime Mahoushoujou Ririkaru Nanoha....
Chemus 10-15-07, 12:00 AM	This seems like the Augment Gems from the Magic Item Compendium, with a fairly unique twist, but why is it in the Classes forum? Edit: Sorry, I didn't see the first line...Kinda skimmed to the crunchy bits....and then skimmed through them. My apologies. As for implementation, the aforementioned Wondrous Item, with the usual prerequisites for the cartridges, and a special masterwork weapon as the cartridge holder. Costs commensurate with the complexity/number of cartridge slots.
Evilclone 10-15-07, 09:16 AM	I'm a huge fan of the anime and the title of the topic had caught my eyes as an immediate action ^_^ Well, maybe you're going too far, the fact is D&D is too different to manage the system of MGLN. The only things that I can recommend you is: - for Belka Magic use Alchemical Weapon Capsules of the Complete Adventurer as a guideline, instead of capsules you have cartridges that loads directly into the weapons. - for Mid-childa Magic the cartridges can work like metamagic rods. They enhance the magic of the mage as in the anime. However I don't know about D20 Modern, but there are 2 other systems that works better for this kind of settings. I don't know if I can write the name of them since they're not published by Wizards.
Scottbert 10-15-07, 09:39 AM	Thanks for the suggestions. I'm _not_ trying to replicate Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha here -- that's not the genre of the game I hope to use it in. That's what inspired it, but I'm picturing a warrior-mage using this in an ordinary or unintelligent magical item -- not a Device that is already used to channel his magical energy. Here's some ideas I've gotten so far (I'm not saying any of these for certain, they're just possibilities. Ideas:Ideas: Cap on multi-cartridges is related to magic weapon bonus. The +, not the special abilities. Perhaps this applies to how many different types of cartridges you can use, rather than total. Problem: Price as balancing doesn't work in a wealth check system. How to limit it then? Proposed prices: 15 gp (+1), 37.5 gp (+2), 70 gp (+3). Limit 2 cartridges activated at once. Should be comparable to similar ammo. +1 ammo: 46. +2 ammo: 166. +3 ammo: 366. Ouch... But some discount is deserved, since arrows that miss are salvageable 50% of the time, while cartridges that miss are not. The +2 ammo price may be appropriate for a "+1 Spell-storing" cartridge, however (Once loaded and activated, the weapon becomes a +1 spell-storing weapon for the next spell cast into it -- when the spell is discharged, the weapon returns to normal). D20 Modern price: Ammo costs 4 or 5 for a 50-set, so should increasing that purchase DC by 10 (+1), 15 (+2), or 20 (+3) buy 50 magic ammo? Perhaps allow combined +1 flaming (or whatever) for only +1 more DC? Oh and RE: Evilclone: I think we're allowed to talk about other systems in brief, as long as we're not 1. blatantly advertising them or 2. just trashing them. (IE, 'in XYZ system it works like this' sounds okay to me, but 'YXZ system is the best ever, buy it now!' or 'ZYX system sucks and is an expletive bag of expletive' don't belong here.)
Scottbert 10-15-07, 12:30 PM	Okay, here's what I've got so far: ---------- Current mechanics: - Mechanics for installing/retrofitting the system in a weapon: Unknown. Craft Cartridge [Item Creation] Prerequisite: ? Benefit: You can create magic cartridges. See below for a description. Base cost of 50 x spell level x caster level gp (some exceptions exist). Spent cartridges can be recharged for half the creation cost. You can retrofit weapons with this system or, if you have the appropriate craft skill, build it in when you craft a weapon. - Magic Cartridge These items contain a single spell. When one is loaded into a weapon with a cartridge system installed, it may be activated as a swift action. The spell either: Is a valid spell for use in a spell-storing item. If so, then when the cartridge is activated the spell affects the first target you hit the round it is activated. (If you don't hit anything that round, the cartridge is wasted. Is a spell that would normally target a weapon. The spell goes off, targeting the weapon the system is installed in. ? (Unsure) Is a spell that would normally target _you_. It goes off normally. (IE, bull's strength to make you more powerful in this battle. Versions of such spells designed for swift casting and single-round duration would probably be better) - Cartridge Mage Is a: Base Class? Prestige Class? Advanced Class? Desired attributes: Should have a BAB of 3/4 or better seeing as their schtick involves hitting enemies with weapons supplemented by spells. Should have the hit points to be in combat (probably d8). Definite class skills: Knowledge arcana, spellcraft, craft. Maybe class skills: Appraise (related to craft), sleight of hand (learning to quickly load cartridges), other knowledges (if INT-based), social skills (if CHA-based). Class features: Learn to make the first type of cartridge's effect affect the first target you hit after activation, even if you don't hit anything in the first round. (limits on stacking still apply) Learn to activate multiple cartridges at once (based on the spellchanneler's Spell Surge) Proposed mechanic: At certain levels the cartridge mage gains the ability to use an additional cartridge simultaneously. When multiple cartridges are used at once, at the end of the round the cartridge mage suffers backlash, taking nonlethal damage equal to twice the combined spell levels of the spells in the cartridges he used (if he is immune to nonlethal damage, he takes lethal damage). ? MAYBE Learn to activate cartridges as a free action? (So they can use a swift-action spell at the same time Learn to use an empty spell-storing weapon to add +1 to the stack cap at no penalty. ? MAYBE Learn to make cartridges even cheaper/faster ? MAYBE Cartridge mage learns to get the bonus to hit metal targets with shocking grasp carts, if only for the cart's damage. ? Maybe have infusions related to their magic to supplement their spells -- like one that allows them to channel a cartridge's power into a weapon that doesn't have the system installed, one to temporarily crate or recharge cartridges, etc. Especially if the cartridge-casting only variant is used. ? MAYBE Learns to make cartridges of spells higher than third level, particularly if the following variant is used. ? MAYBE A cartridge mage can _only_ cast spells through cartridges. If so, they should still qualify for item creation feats (and maybe even get some of them as bonus feats, say Weapons and Armor (obvious) and Potions (possible connection to alchemy?)) Problem: If this is used, then a cartridge mage is useless if they lose their weapon or their cartridges. They probably need some way to use their spells at reduced effectiveness even without cartridges, and possibly a way to activate cartridges without a proper weapon somehow. - Sample cartridges: Type I Shocking grasp cartridge, 2d6. 100 gp. Shocking grasp cartridge, 5d6. 250 gp. Combust cartridge, 3d8. 300 gp. Combust cartridge, 10d8. 1000 gp. Type II Magic Weapon cartridge. 50 gp. Blade of Flame cartridge. 50 gp. Blade of blood cartridge. 50 gp. Unusual cartridges: Type I Light Cartridges - For stacking purposes, these count as half a cartridge (so even someone with no levels of Cartridge Mage can use two at once if their weapon can hold multiple cartridges). They also do double damage to undead. Until the magic is discharged or wears off (1 round), the charged weapon glows as in the spells. Lunia cartridges are always popular among cartridge users, but Mercuria and Venya cartridges are usually only used when one expects to encounter undead. Lunia cartridge, +1d6 damage. 28 gp Mercuria cartridge, +2d6 damage. 150 gp. Venya cartridge, +3d6 damage. 325 gp. - On cartridges and alchemical weapon capsules: Cartridge users usually love weapon capsules, and many cartridge mages are also alchemists. After all, when you need a certain energy type, or a silver or ghost-touching weapon, it's cheaper to use the alchemical capsules than magic cartridges. But remember that you _cannot_ activate both capsules and a cartridge with the same swift action, and even if a cartridge mage can circumvent this, damaging capsules do not stack with the same type of energy damage from cartridges. Important note: Damaging capsules make your weapon do +1d6 in all attacks for a round, whereas direct-damaging magic cartridges only affect the first target you hit in a round and are less cost-efficient. (However, cartridge-mages learn to retain the magic beyond a single round if they do not hit in the first round -- they cannot do this with alchemy capsules). ---------- Oh and RE: Evilclone: I think we're allowed to talk about other systems in brief, as long as we're not 1. blatantly advertising them or 2. just trashing them. (IE, 'in XYZ system it works like this' sounds okay to me, but 'YXZ system is the best ever, buy it now!' or 'ZYX system sucks and is an expletive bag of expletive' don't belong here.)
Scottbert 10-15-07, 11:02 PM	Here's what I've got so far: ---------- The Cartridge Mage Prerequisite: Craft (weaponsmithing) 8 ranks, knowledge arcana 4 ranks Hit Die: d8 BAB: Full Saves: Good Fort Class skills: Knowledge (arcana), spellcraft, craft, profession, ride, climb, jump, swim, tumble. skill points: 2 + int/level Class Features Weapon and Armor proficiency: The cartridge mage gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies. Spellcasting: The Cartridge Mage casts spells as a wizard does, with bonus spells and save DCs set by his INT score, and preparing his spells from a spellbook. Unlike a wizard, however, he can choose to prepare a spell, instead of in memory, in the form of a special conjured 'cartridge' for later use in a specially-prepared weapon or with certain other class features. Cartridges prepared in this way can only be used by the cartridge mage that created them and disappear 24 hours after creation. Spellcasting-Armor: Cartridge Mages are used to fighting in some form of armor, and so can cast prepared spells in light armor without suffering arcane spell failure. Spellcasting-Spellbook: The Cartridge Mage somehow obtains at first level a spellbook containing (3 + INT bonus) 1st level spells from his spell list. At each additional level, the cartridge mage learns two additional spells of any level he can cast. As with wizards he can copy spells from arcane magical writings or research them. Spellcasting-Spellsperday: The Cartridge Mage has the same spells per day progression as the Assassin prestige class in the DMG/SRD. (For reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm ) Craft Cartridge: The Cartridge mage is able to craft magic cartridges, containing an alchemical mixture designed to hold spells in compact form. This feat works as described above. (This is especially important for the low-level cartridge mage, who due to his low number of daily spells will likely be crafting spare cartridges on days he does not expect to face combat. (Notes: Should only one cartridge be allowed to be made in this fashion per day (or it may take more than a day if the base cost is over 1,000 gp)? Should such cartridges be rechargable for half the crafting cost?) Cartridge Weapon: The cartridge mage learns to retrofit weapons or create new ones containing a magical-mechanical mechanism capable of drawing power from specially prepared magic cartridges. (The exact mechanics governing making such weapons and determining how many cartridges they can hold is still uncertain. One suggestion is to have the first slot be free, a 2-slot weapon costs 4,000, a 3-slot weapon 9,000, etc, with weapons able to be retrofitted with additional slots at partial cost...) In the event that a cartridge mage is separated from his weapon but retains his cartridges, he can treat his fist as a weapon capable of holding and activating one cartridge (clutched in said fist before activation). Note that without Improved Unarmed Strike, he provokes an attack of opportunity for attacking unarmed and can only do nonlethal damage with the physical part of his attack (if an attack cartridge is used that deals damage it does so normally) Improved Cartridge Casting: For a cartridge mage, an attack spell from an activated cartridge acts as a spell in a spell-storing weapon -- It is not lost after a single round and does not activate until a target is successfully hit. Double cartridge usage Benefit: At 5th level, a cartridge mage is able to have _two_ cartridges active at any one time, as long as they are of different types (attack, weapon, or augment). In addition, he can activate a cartridge as part of an attack action ias well as as a swift action. (Example: He can use a magic weapon cartridge (weapon type) at the beginning of the round as a swift action, and then activate a combust cartridge (attack type) as he attacks -- if he hits, he can activate _another_ combust cartridge as part of a second attack action if he has enough iterative attacks or two weapons. Normal: Only one cartridge spell effect can be active at a time, regardless of types. - Abilities that lack implementation or assigned class level: Quick alchemical crafting: Due to the alchemical basis of cartridges and cartridge mages' love for weapon capsules, cartridge mages can craft alchemical items better and/or faster. (Mechanical implementation lacking -- Perhaps they get a level-based bonus to craft (alchemy) checks and can use the epic quicker use of crafting before epic levels?) A cartridge mage lacking a weapon can throw an attack-type cartridge at a foe as a ranged touch attack. If it hits, the spell is cast upon the target. If it misses the cartridge is wasted. Desperation attack: A cartridge mage whose party faces certain doom at the hands of an extremely tough foe can, as a last resort, overload his weapon. He may activate as many cartridges as he likes and they will all stack with eachother until a successful attack is made -- Once the attack is made or [some duration passes] without a successful attack being made, his weapon explodes, being destroyed permanently, and the backlash of magical energy knocks him down to 0 hit points. (Problems: How long can he keep attacking and missing before time runs out? The primary penalty here is that his treasured weapon, very expensive due to holding multiple cartridges and likely being magical, is destroyed. If however circumstances allow him to do this with a single-cartridge, non-magical backup weapon (For some reason the foe allows him to spend several rounds loading cartridges into his weapon and activating them -- perhaps he is hiding) then this would not be a powerful enough penalty. The intent of this ability is to allow the cartridge mage to save his party from TPK if there is no other option -- the penalties must be great enough to prevent it from being used frivolously!) - Spell list: The Cartridge Mage spell list is not yet complete. It will include three types of spells: Attack: Touch spells which cause some form of harm to their targets. Cartridges of shocking grasp and combust are staples of high-damage cartridge mages. The Light of _____ spell chain also goes here because it behaves slightly differently in cartridge form, though I'm not exactly certain how best to implement it yet. Weapon: Spells which buff the cartridge mage's weapon (ie, magic weapon... and blade of flame/blood!) Augment: These augment the caster in some way -- Cartridge mage augment spells should be something helpful in melee combat, such as increasing their strength or speed. True Casting should also be on the spell list, though exactly how they will use it I'm not sure. But they need some method of punching through SR. - Notes: Cartridge mages and dual wielding: The number of weapons weilded does not affect the cap to how many spells the cartridge mage may have active at once. (Note: It might be fair to allow a weapon cartridge to be active in each of them, or active in one while an augment or attack cartridge is used in another.) - Alternate version with a 3/4 BAB for those who think a full BAB is too much (Or you're in d20 modern and want to keep the power level down a bit) Gains good will save. Any other benefits it should get? ---------- So, what does everyone think so far? Any suggestions? Hmm, I forgot metamagic cartridges again... A friend suggested I consider basing cartridge magic on martial adepts instead of spellcasters, does anyone more familiar with ToB have comments about this? Main problems I see: Still need mechanics for the special weapons. Need spell list. Is too similar to duskblade in purpose -- a magic-powered melee fighter great at destroying single foes. At the moment it's sort of like a prepared version of the duskblade. Ideally new abilities/mechanics that grow out of or only make sense with the cartridge system should set this class apart from others.
bkdubs123 10-16-07, 12:14 AM	Well the really interesting part about this is that it allows nearly any warrior type to do the Duskblade schtick only not 100% as well. I don't have a lot to comment about yet except that I rather like the general idea, but I'm not sure a base class or even a PrC needs to be made for the idea to take off.