Post/Author/DateTime	Post
karthos 04-06-05, 02:39 PM	Would a caster level increase, such as that provided by the Illumians Krau sigil(which does work on spell-like abilities), do anything for a warlock other than allow them to overcome spell resistance better? It seems like it should increase their eldritch blast damage but I can't find that anywhere...
Pax 04-06-05, 02:57 PM	Rules as written? Sorry, it has no benefit to EB damage. Logic? Yes, it should benefit EB damage.
spamfiltre 04-06-05, 02:59 PM	EB damage is based on advancement in the warlock class, with specifically noted exceptions for prestige classes that offer "+1 spellcaster level." It is based on an irregular class level progression, and is not tied to caster level. Check the Warlock Errata thread for the same info from Richard Baker. Caster level helps with SR, and some invocations that rely on caster level for duration, or other abilities (such as the strength rating of Earthen Grasp). Overall, unless you are very worried about SR, you don't need to worry about caster level for warlocks, and are free to take the nifty Mage Slayer feats that knock down your caster level.
Lexarius 04-06-05, 03:56 PM	I prefer the interpretation that EB damage is tied to caster level. Maybe not in a simple formula, but if my caster level were to fluctuate for some reason (Wild Mage) then the damage should go up or down as a result, just like any magic user.
DM Zoc 04-06-05, 04:34 PM	When I was reading the description of the Warlock's Eldritch Blast, I got the impression that it is the equivalent of a first-level spell with a damage tied to caster level, such that the damage done by a caster level 9 warlock is the damage done if you look at level 9 on the warlock chart (such that practiced spellcaster matters).
m15a 04-06-05, 05:29 PM	many invocations are tied to spells, and those spells have caster level based effects. duration, range, . . . maybe just a minor point. but it's something. i disagree with caster level being tied to eldritch blast damage, though. i just don't feel good about a rogue 4/warlock 1 getting 3d6+2d6 damage on a sneak attack. not that i'm going to argue whether it's overpowered, but i feel that eldritch blast damage is a big enough deal that it shouldn't just be based on caster level.
Pax 04-06-05, 05:55 PM	I disagree with caster level being tied to eldritch blast damage, though. i just don't feel good about a rogue 4/warlock 1 getting 3d6+2d6 damage on a sneak attack. not that i'm going to argue whether it's overpowered, but i feel that eldritch blast damage is a big enough deal that it shouldn't just be based on caster level. Yet, a Rogue(4)/Wizard(1) casting Magic Missile does see benefits from a feat like Practised Spellcaster (they get three missiles instead of one). Granted, that particular spell doesn't allow sneak attack - but if I were to browse my thirty-odd books, I'm sure I'd find a few that did, and improved their effects with caster level to boot. Me, I think Eldritch Blast should deal damage equal to one-half the warlock's caster level (rounded up). That'd be a slightly better progression than warlocks currently get, but it'd also be a simpler, more-straightforward way to handle it.
-Defiler of Souls- 04-06-05, 06:40 PM	the one real thing that balances the unlimited use of eldritch blast is the fact it can never be as effective as a wizard/sorcerer's damage spell...so i think allowing you to go above 9d6 in eldritch blast is inherently overpowered(and according to the rules CL has no effect on EB)
Vaelan 04-06-05, 07:50 PM	Staves use the Warlock's caster level. I am of the opinion that every Warlock should make and use staves.
Pax 04-06-05, 09:28 PM	the one real thing that balances the unlimited use of eldritch blast is the fact it can never be as effective as a wizard/sorcerer's damage spell...so i think allowing you to go above 9d6 in eldritch blast is inherently overpowered(and according to the rules CL has no effect on EB) Overpowered? You DO realise that, at 20th level, a Wizard can throw a disintegrate spell - also ray, as is EB - that will deal fourty dice of damage? And that he can Maximise it for 240hp? Not to mention 24d6 meteor swarms, or 20d8 horrid wiltings? 15d6 delayed blast fireballs? 10d6 fireballs? How is letting the Warlock eventually get to 10d6 (at 19th level) overpowered ...?
Lexarius 04-06-05, 09:31 PM	Not to mention 24d6 meteor swarms... You forgot the bludgeoning damage. Meteor Swarms are now 32d6.
-Defiler of Souls- 04-06-05, 09:41 PM	Overpowered? You DO realise that, at 20th level, a Wizard can throw a disintegrate spell - also ray, as is EB - that will deal fourty dice of damage? And that he can Maximise it for 240hp? Not to mention 24d6 meteor swarms, or 20d8 horrid wiltings? 15d6 delayed blast fireballs? 10d6 fireballs? How is letting the Warlock eventually get to 10d6 (at 19th level) overpowered ...? first off disintigrate gives a fortitude save, and most high end monsters have a high fort save. EB has no save the closest spell to EB is polar ray, but wait polar ray is cold damage which makes the spell less useful against creatures w/ cold resistance/immunity(not to mention spellcasters can use spells to resist elemental damage), EB on the other hand is not subject to elemental resistanceo of any kind as for meteor swarm: once again this is elemental damage, also meteor swarm is available to anyone til level 17, where a slightly less powerful version of eldritch blast is always available(not to mention a wizard isn't likely to have more then one or 2 meteor swarms to use per day, the warlock can cast eldritch blast for hours on end) also eldritch blast may have meta-spell like abilities applied to it ALL the time at no penalty, meteor swarm can't have metamagic attached to it(w/ quicken spell like ability and maximize spell like ability thats 108 damage per turn, the meteor swarm only averages 112 damage, and EB has unlimited use) i believe unlimited use, the lack of an elemental damage type, and the great versitility the eldritch essence and blast shape invocations give make it unfair for the EB to deal more then half the damage of a ray spell cast by a wizard/sorcerer of similar level
Pax 04-07-05, 01:31 AM	first off disintigrate gives a fortitude save, and most high end monsters have a high fort save. EB has no save And if you save against Disintegrate, you take 5d6 damage, which is about half as good as a 9 or 10 die EB. the closest spell to EB is polar ray, but wait polar ray is cold damage which makes the spell less useful against creatures w/ cold resistance/immunity(not to mention spellcasters can use spells to resist elemental damage), EB on the other hand is not subject to elemental resistanceo of any kind flipside, EB is - unless it's under the effects of an essecne or shape invocation - blocked by the lowly lesser globe of invulnerability. Besides which, Frostburn has the feat Piercing Cold - a Piercing Polar Ray would still do half damage against even creatures with the cold subtype! as for meteor swarm: once again this is elemental damage, also meteor swarm is available to anyone til level 17, where a slightly less powerful version of eldritch blast is always available(not to mention a wizard isn't likely to have more then one or 2 meteor swarms to use per day, the warlock can cast eldritch blast for hours on end) And how many characters are in combat for "hours upon end", anyway? also eldritch blast may have meta-spell like abilities applied to it ALL the time at no penalty, Wrong. Each Meta-SLA feat can be used three times per day. Want to quicken your EB more than three times in a day? Take the feat twice. meteor swarm can't have metamagic attached to it(w/ quicken spell like ability and maximize spell like ability thats 108 damage per turn, the meteor swarm only averages 112 damage, and EB has unlimited use) Greater Rod of Quickening - poof, quickened Meteor Swarm. Sure it takes an item instead of a feat - feats are in shorter supply than equipment, though. i believe unlimited use, the lack of an elemental damage type, and the great versitility the eldritch essence and blast shape invocations give make it unfair for the EB to deal more then half the damage of a ray spell cast by a wizard/sorcerer of similar level 10d6 is not "more than half" of - to use Polar Ray as an example again - 20d6 (assumign caster level 20). It is half of that damage amount.
Vaelan 04-07-05, 03:36 AM	the one real thing that balances the unlimited use of eldritch blast is the fact it can never be as effective as a wizard/sorcerer's damage spell Endurance only matters when you're forced to continue seeking (or at least not actively avoiding) encounters when the real spellcasters are reduced to Commoners/Warriors. In a campaign where this situation is not extremely common, Warlocks are sub-par. I fixed this by making up my own irregular Eldritch Blast progression, which increases much faster at higher levels to reflect and adjust to the fact that real spellcasters are getting much more powerful at these levels. My progression is 2d6 at level 1 and it increases at the following levels: 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. This ends up with a 15d6 Eldritch Blast at level 20. Overall, a real arcane spellcaster is still better than a Warlock in every way. They have better spells, more spells, and generally the vast majority of their spell slots can be put to better use than 15d6 damage or most Invocations can be.
-Defiler of Souls- 04-07-05, 01:56 PM	And if you save against Disintegrate, you take 5d6 damage, which is about half as good as a 9 or 10 die EB. my point was that only on a failed save does disintigrate do alot more damage the EB, on a failed save it deals less so the point is its not always superioir to EB even if you don't take into effect EB's unlimited use. flipside, EB is - unless it's under the effects of an essecne or shape invocation - blocked by the lowly lesser globe of invulnerability. Besides which, Frostburn has the feat Piercing Cold - a Piercing Polar Ray would still do half damage against even creatures with the cold subtype! ok i'll give you that lesser globe of invulnrability will stop EB, but monsters w/ cold immunity/resistance are far more common enemies then enemies using lesser glove of nvulnrability, and as for piercing cold: it has no metamagic rod and i don't see a wizard giving up a 9th level spell slot for polar ray(and thats assuming the caster has piercing cold to begin with) And how many characters are in combat for "hours upon end", anyway? "hours on end" was never meant to be literal, but the simple fact is merteor swarm can be cast once or twice per day; the acerage warlock will probably use EB 6+ times in a day Wrong. Each Meta-SLA feat can be used three times per day. Want to quicken your EB more than three times in a day? Take the feat twice. ok i'll give you that i read the ability wrong Greater Rod of Quickening - poof, quickened Meteor Swarm. Sure it takes an item instead of a feat - feats are in shorter supply than equipment, though. so you don't think it's an advantage that warlock can do with a feat what costs a wizard ALOT of money to get 10d6 is not "more than half" of - to use Polar Ray as an example again - 20d6 (assumign caster level 20). It is half of that damage amount. you misunderstood my post, i said it would make it "overpowered" to gain more then half the damage of a wizards; I didn't say it would be to powerful to give warlock more then 10d6 on EB, i did not say they got more then half now(i would be ok w/ 10 dice being achieved, but more is too good)
-Defiler of Souls- 04-07-05, 02:06 PM	Endurance only matters when you're forced to continue seeking (or at least not actively avoiding) encounters when the real spellcasters are reduced to Commoners/Warriors. In a campaign where this situation is not extremely common, Warlocks are sub-par. I fixed this by making up my own irregular Eldritch Blast progression, which increases much faster at higher levels to reflect and adjust to the fact that real spellcasters are getting much more powerful at these levels. My progression is 2d6 at level 1 and it increases at the following levels: 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. This ends up with a 15d6 Eldritch Blast at level 20. Overall, a real arcane spellcaster is still better than a Warlock in every way. They have better spells, more spells, and generally the vast majority of their spell slots can be put to better use than 15d6 damage or most Invocations can be. first of all 15d6 damage is equal to or greater then almost any spell a wizard gets. and the closest spell to EB as i said before is polar ray....EB at 15d6 would have an average damage of 52 or so and a 20d6 polar ray has an average of 70, this difference in damage is a mere 18 and will be completely negated by the many monsters with cold resistance/immunity. secondly when you throw in the eldritch essence invocations w/ 15d6 EB would blow polar ray out of the water(it would be superior even before you took into account the unlimited use) seriously guys I'm playing a wizard in my current campaign and theres also a warlock in the group and as of yet we haven't seen any huge power detriments, the slightly less powerful spells are made up for by thier unlimited use and persitant effects, also the better hp, BaB, DR, and fast healing are a huge benefit. The warlock is NOT underpowered so i see no reason why EB should do more damage....if you want to make the damage determined by CL so be it, i even said i'd accept damage going as high as 10d6, but beyond that is a needless addition to power. yeah but once you add a few of the eldritch essence in
DM Zoc 04-07-05, 04:42 PM	Just on a side note, I wanted to point out the wondrous item which increases Eldritch Blast damage by up to 2d6. Normally, I would not be so big to push specific magical items, but warlocks are well-recognized as item crafters such that they would likely be found even in lower-magic campaigns.