Cerebramancer versus "just-a-Psion" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cerebramancer versus "just-a-Psion" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TarotWarrior
12-09-07, 11:32 AM Is splitting your levels between Psion and Wizard and then prestiging into a Cerebramancer worth it, or would a plain lvl 20 Psion have more damage output, seeing as he gets access to higher level powers?

According to my very rudimentary calculations, if you were to take all ten levels of the Cerebramancer and the rest of your character levels seperated equally between Psion and Wizard, your character would be casting/manifesting as an effective level 15 wizard/psion?
Yorath_theWolf
12-09-07, 11:53 AM as is the case with most duel progression classes, ESSPECIALLY casters and in this case psions, Cerbramancer comes out very much so sub par. in the case of divine/arcane duel casters(and the only good one there really is Arcane Heirophant) you have the benifits of metamagic feats esspecially and well now reserve feats, and of course other magic related feats, such as spell penetration or school focus, affecting both classes equally. this is saddly not at all true with either arcane or psion feats benifiting the other at all. so you really are better as a straight psion or branching off into one of the psion prcs.
archerpwr
12-09-07, 12:59 PM With a precocious apprentance entrance, cerebramancer is worth it. 3 feats and one ML for 6th level arcane spells is a pretty good trade. With a psion 3/wizard 3 entry it is suicide. Soul manifester is also worth it with a shape soulmeld+open chakra Incarnate 1/Psion 7 entry.
vorpo
12-09-07, 01:24 PM Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else).

Ardent might be a good choice since it depends on ML rather than actual class lvl to determine its powers. Therefore, the practiced manifester feat will be very nice when used in the cerebremancer combo and causes basically no lost of power by multiclassing.
herceg
12-10-07, 04:41 AM Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else).

I guess the thing is that most requirement states "you must be able to cast xth level spells (as opposed to the single spell enabled by precocious apprentice).
JulesCARV
12-10-07, 05:02 AM Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else).

In the case of mystic theurge, this is correct. In the case of cerebremancer, it isn't.

The argument goes something like this: say you're a wizard 1/cleric 2 with precocious apprentice. When you gain your 3rd cleric level, you notice that you can cast 2nd level cleric spells. So, you then apply this part of the precocious apprentice feat: "When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you usually would."

So, since you're able to cast 2nd level spells, you duly give yourself an extra 2nd level cleric spell slot, and lose everything else about precocious apprentice except the spellcraft bonus. Now, as a wizard 1/cleric 3, you meet the 2nd level divine spellcasting requirement, but no longer meet the arcane spellcasting requirement.

There might be a way around this. Maybe be a human wizard 1/cleric 2 or wizard 2/cleric 1 with precocious apprentice and heighten spell at 1st level, then divine metamagic (heighten spell) at 3rd. It's really not relevant, though. The point is, it doesn't apply to a wizard/psion. A wizard 1/psion 3 never gains the ability to cast 2nd level spells, so he never loses the precocious apprentice benefit of the first paragraph.

If your DM rules that precocious apprentice doesn't let a wizard 1/psion 3 become a cerebremancer, of course, she's entirely entitled to do so. However, the argument barring the divine/arcane mystic theurge from using precocious apprentice doesn't apply to the psionic/arcane cerebremancer.
herceg
12-10-07, 07:33 AM Funny, somehow I always considered this feat to be class-specific/dependent. As in "precocious (wizard) apprentice". How could anyone gain a 2nd level cleric slot - after being a gifted wizard (in this example) - from this feat is a mystery to me...
Tedronai
12-10-07, 07:49 AM Even in that case, when you gain the 2nd level of Cerebremancer, you will gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, lose the benefit of the feat that allowed you entry into the class, and lose the benefit of the class (but you never again gain the benefit of the feat, since you still DID gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the loss is permanent)
herceg
12-10-07, 08:05 AM Even in that case, when you gain the 2nd level of Cerebremancer, you will gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, lose the benefit of the feat that allowed you entry into the class, and lose the benefit of the class (but you never again gain the benefit of the feat, since you still DID gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the loss is permanent)

You're reasoning is perfectly sound, IF things would go that far... but, sadly the PrC prereqs still state that the character needs to be able to "cast 2nd level spells". The feat makes her/him able to cast a single spell, so no prereq, no PrC...
DreamerInsane
12-10-07, 08:09 AM You won't lose the class. You qualify for Cerebremancer by virtue of your Cerebremancer levels and the Wizard level, which combined allow you to cast 2nd level spells. You never once lose the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells - When Precocious Apprentice shuts down, it's because you just gained the required arcane casting from a level of Cerebremancer.
seker
12-10-07, 08:10 AM In answer to your first question it would depend on the build you use... note, splitting your levels evenly between wizard and psion is a bad idea. It is much better to choose what you are stronger at and try the following: (basing on 20th level as you asked vs. a 20th level psion)

For psionic power
a wizard 3/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (plus 4 classes of your choice in either psion or a psionic PrC) would give you the following:
Able to cast 7th level arcane spells (caster level 13) and manifest 9th level powers (manifester level 17). Note if you take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester they increase to CL 17 and ML 20.

For arcane power
a wizard 3/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (plus 4 classes of your choice in either wizard or an arcane PrC) would give the following:
Able to cast 9th level arcane spells (caster level 17) and manifest 7th level powers (manifester level 13). Note if you take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester they increase to CL 20 and ML 17.

And if you want to go true power try this (taken in the following order)
bard 4
psion 4
cerebramancer 3
sublime chord 2
cerebramancer 7
and take the practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester feats. Caster level is 20, manifester level is 18, can cast 9th level spells without preparation from both the bard and sorcerer/wizard list, manifest 7th level powers, bardic knowledge and bard song as a 6th level bard, higher hp/reflex save/attack/better weapons/can cast in light armor, but will have fewer spells per day of levels 1 through 4.
JulesCARV
12-10-07, 08:15 AM Funny, somehow I always considered this feat to be class-specific/dependent. As in "precocious (wizard) apprentice". How could anyone gain a 2nd level cleric slot - after being a gifted wizard (in this example) - from this feat is a mystery to me...

You can disagree with the argument if you want. It does require a somewhat tortured reading of the text. Nonetheless, it is the argument for why a wizard 1/cleric 3 can't be a mystic theurge. (Alternatively, you could say that wizard 1/cleric 3 mystic theurge is perfectly legitimate, or you could simply rule that it can't be done without resorting to tortured readings of the RAW. That would also be fine.)

You're reasoning is perfectly sound, IF things would go that far... but, sadly the PrC prereqs still state that the character needs to be able to "cast 2nd level spells". The feat makes her/him able to cast a single spell, so no prereq, no PrC...

I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell.
Maat_Mons
12-10-07, 10:49 AM I guess the thing is that most requirement states "you must be able to cast xth level spells (as opposed to the single spell enabled by precocious apprentice).

Since we’re splitting hairs, if you cast a spell one day and a spell the next, it will be accurate to say that you have cast two spells. In that manner, precocious apprentice can fulfill the requirement.

The annoying thing about the word “spell” in this game is that it can refer to either a magical effect in operation or a template by which magical effects are created. As an example, when dispel magic says “you can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells,” it is using the former sense. If you use dispel magic to do away with enlarge person, it does not return everyone under the effects of enlarge person everywhere in the world to normal size. However, if it were using the other sense, every casting of enlarge person would be the same spell, and that would be the meaning.
vorpo
12-10-07, 10:51 AM I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell.

Knows one, but can cast 3, mind you.
vorpo
12-10-07, 10:52 AM You won't lose the class. You qualify for Cerebremancer by virtue of your Cerebremancer levels and the Wizard level, which combined allow you to cast 2nd level spells. You never once lose the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells - When Precocious Apprentice shuts down, it's because you just gained the required arcane casting from a level of Cerebremancer.

You can't qualify a PrC using itself. You can't even gain entry to it in the first place if you need to be there to fulfill the requirement
archerpwr
12-10-07, 11:02 AM You can't qualify a PrC using itself. You can't even gain entry to it in the first place if you need to be there to fulfill the requirement

Dude, drop it. We all know it is a grey area. That's what that comma signified. I don't put dependant clauses just anywhere.
vorpo
12-11-07, 09:36 AM In the case of mystic theurge, this is correct. In the case of cerebremancer, it isn't.

The most strict reading of the rules would be that the prerequisite is "able to cast second level spells" and Precocious Apprentice allows you to cast a single second level spell and even that is not reliable, therefore the Precocious Apprentice feat would not qualify you. If you DM wants this feat to allow characters to qualify for a prestige class, that is something you will have to discuss.

Therefore, unless you are gonna houserule it otherwise, Precocious Apprentice can NOT satisfy entry requirements. Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules.
vorpo
12-11-07, 09:38 AM Dude, drop it. We all know it is a grey area. That's what that comma signified. I don't put dependant clauses just anywhere.

Grey? It's purely black and white. Grey only becuz you want it to be houseruling grey.
Maat_Mons
12-11-07, 10:08 AM I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell.Knows one, but can cast 3, mind you.

A 4th level sorcerer can cast an arbitrarily large number of 2nd level spells, just not in the same day. Precocious apprentice also allows you to cast an arbitrarily large number of 2nd level spells, also not in the same day.

Since the entry requirements don’t contain the phrase “per day” or anything equivalent at any point, I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
Frozen Yakman
12-11-07, 10:22 AM Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules.

Except that RAW and RAI ARE house rules and we debate them all the time.
archerpwr
12-11-07, 02:14 PM Grey? It's purely black and white. Grey only becuz you want it to be houseruling grey.

Have your flamewar then. It's not like it actually helps anyone.
PhaedrusXY
12-11-07, 05:38 PM Therefore, unless you are gonna houserule it otherwise, Precocious Apprentice can NOT satisfy entry requirements. Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules.The RPGA is nothing but a bunch of house rules. If it isn't in the FAQ or Errata, it isn't official for general gaming.

If you want to split hairs and argue the RAW, then either 3rd level wizards with 12 or 13 Int, or 4th level sorcerers can't enter Mystic Theurge. The first only has a single 2nd level spellslot. The second only knows one second level spell. So whichever definition of spells you use to disqualify Precocious Apprentice early entry, one of those doesn't qualify, when it is obvious that it should.

Really, arguing over the "RAW" is stupid in any case. In real games, DMs just say "No, you can't do that", or allow it. The only place that anyone gives a crap what the "RAW" is is on this board, and others like it.

Now... I apologize for contributing to this derailing of the thread. Most dual-casters are inferior to single-classed casters as far as raw power. Having lots of low level spells/powers is not as powerful as having fewer, but more powerful spells.

If the DM allows early entry via Precocious Apprentice, dual-casters are ok, but I'd still probably choose to play a single-classed caster in most cases. Even with only a single level lost from your main casting class, you're still a level behind on aquiring higher level spells. This is one of the things I hate most about the sorcerer, as compared to the wizard.

However, some of the lower level Psionic powers augment very well, making them (almost) the equal of true higher level powers. Also, since both wizards and psions use Int as their main stat, a wizard/psion/cerebremancer is probably one of the best dual-casters, and can be decent even without Precocious Apprentice "cheese".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TarotWarrior 12-09-07, 11:32 AM	Is splitting your levels between Psion and Wizard and then prestiging into a Cerebramancer worth it, or would a plain lvl 20 Psion have more damage output, seeing as he gets access to higher level powers? According to my very rudimentary calculations, if you were to take all ten levels of the Cerebramancer and the rest of your character levels seperated equally between Psion and Wizard, your character would be casting/manifesting as an effective level 15 wizard/psion?
Yorath_theWolf 12-09-07, 11:53 AM	as is the case with most duel progression classes, ESSPECIALLY casters and in this case psions, Cerbramancer comes out very much so sub par. in the case of divine/arcane duel casters(and the only good one there really is Arcane Heirophant) you have the benifits of metamagic feats esspecially and well now reserve feats, and of course other magic related feats, such as spell penetration or school focus, affecting both classes equally. this is saddly not at all true with either arcane or psion feats benifiting the other at all. so you really are better as a straight psion or branching off into one of the psion prcs.
archerpwr 12-09-07, 12:59 PM	With a precocious apprentance entrance, cerebramancer is worth it. 3 feats and one ML for 6th level arcane spells is a pretty good trade. With a psion 3/wizard 3 entry it is suicide. Soul manifester is also worth it with a shape soulmeld+open chakra Incarnate 1/Psion 7 entry.
vorpo 12-09-07, 01:24 PM	Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else). Ardent might be a good choice since it depends on ML rather than actual class lvl to determine its powers. Therefore, the practiced manifester feat will be very nice when used in the cerebremancer combo and causes basically no lost of power by multiclassing.
herceg 12-10-07, 04:41 AM	Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else). I guess the thing is that most requirement states "you must be able to cast xth level spells (as opposed to the single spell enabled by precocious apprentice).
JulesCARV 12-10-07, 05:02 AM	Spell granted by precocious apprentice cannot be used to gain entry to PrC. (This has been discussed and verified somewhere else). In the case of mystic theurge, this is correct. In the case of cerebremancer, it isn't. The argument goes something like this: say you're a wizard 1/cleric 2 with precocious apprentice. When you gain your 3rd cleric level, you notice that you can cast 2nd level cleric spells. So, you then apply this part of the precocious apprentice feat: "When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you usually would." So, since you're able to cast 2nd level spells, you duly give yourself an extra 2nd level cleric spell slot, and lose everything else about precocious apprentice except the spellcraft bonus. Now, as a wizard 1/cleric 3, you meet the 2nd level divine spellcasting requirement, but no longer meet the arcane spellcasting requirement. There might be a way around this. Maybe be a human wizard 1/cleric 2 or wizard 2/cleric 1 with precocious apprentice and heighten spell at 1st level, then divine metamagic (heighten spell) at 3rd. It's really not relevant, though. The point is, it doesn't apply to a wizard/psion. A wizard 1/psion 3 never gains the ability to cast 2nd level spells, so he never loses the precocious apprentice benefit of the first paragraph. If your DM rules that precocious apprentice doesn't let a wizard 1/psion 3 become a cerebremancer, of course, she's entirely entitled to do so. However, the argument barring the divine/arcane mystic theurge from using precocious apprentice doesn't apply to the psionic/arcane cerebremancer.
herceg 12-10-07, 07:33 AM	Funny, somehow I always considered this feat to be class-specific/dependent. As in "precocious (wizard) apprentice". How could anyone gain a 2nd level cleric slot - after being a gifted wizard (in this example) - from this feat is a mystery to me...
Tedronai 12-10-07, 07:49 AM	Even in that case, when you gain the 2nd level of Cerebremancer, you will gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, lose the benefit of the feat that allowed you entry into the class, and lose the benefit of the class (but you never again gain the benefit of the feat, since you still DID gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the loss is permanent)
herceg 12-10-07, 08:05 AM	Even in that case, when you gain the 2nd level of Cerebremancer, you will gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, lose the benefit of the feat that allowed you entry into the class, and lose the benefit of the class (but you never again gain the benefit of the feat, since you still DID gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the loss is permanent) You're reasoning is perfectly sound, IF things would go that far... but, sadly the PrC prereqs still state that the character needs to be able to "cast 2nd level spells". The feat makes her/him able to cast a single spell, so no prereq, no PrC...
DreamerInsane 12-10-07, 08:09 AM	You won't lose the class. You qualify for Cerebremancer by virtue of your Cerebremancer levels and the Wizard level, which combined allow you to cast 2nd level spells. You never once lose the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells - When Precocious Apprentice shuts down, it's because you just gained the required arcane casting from a level of Cerebremancer.
seker 12-10-07, 08:10 AM	In answer to your first question it would depend on the build you use... note, splitting your levels evenly between wizard and psion is a bad idea. It is much better to choose what you are stronger at and try the following: (basing on 20th level as you asked vs. a 20th level psion) For psionic power a wizard 3/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (plus 4 classes of your choice in either psion or a psionic PrC) would give you the following: Able to cast 7th level arcane spells (caster level 13) and manifest 9th level powers (manifester level 17). Note if you take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester they increase to CL 17 and ML 20. For arcane power a wizard 3/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (plus 4 classes of your choice in either wizard or an arcane PrC) would give the following: Able to cast 9th level arcane spells (caster level 17) and manifest 7th level powers (manifester level 13). Note if you take practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester they increase to CL 20 and ML 17. And if you want to go true power try this (taken in the following order) bard 4 psion 4 cerebramancer 3 sublime chord 2 cerebramancer 7 and take the practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester feats. Caster level is 20, manifester level is 18, can cast 9th level spells without preparation from both the bard and sorcerer/wizard list, manifest 7th level powers, bardic knowledge and bard song as a 6th level bard, higher hp/reflex save/attack/better weapons/can cast in light armor, but will have fewer spells per day of levels 1 through 4.
JulesCARV 12-10-07, 08:15 AM	Funny, somehow I always considered this feat to be class-specific/dependent. As in "precocious (wizard) apprentice". How could anyone gain a 2nd level cleric slot - after being a gifted wizard (in this example) - from this feat is a mystery to me... You can disagree with the argument if you want. It does require a somewhat tortured reading of the text. Nonetheless, it is the argument for why a wizard 1/cleric 3 can't be a mystic theurge. (Alternatively, you could say that wizard 1/cleric 3 mystic theurge is perfectly legitimate, or you could simply rule that it can't be done without resorting to tortured readings of the RAW. That would also be fine.) You're reasoning is perfectly sound, IF things would go that far... but, sadly the PrC prereqs still state that the character needs to be able to "cast 2nd level spells". The feat makes her/him able to cast a single spell, so no prereq, no PrC... I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell.
Maat_Mons 12-10-07, 10:49 AM	I guess the thing is that most requirement states "you must be able to cast xth level spells (as opposed to the single spell enabled by precocious apprentice). Since we’re splitting hairs, if you cast a spell one day and a spell the next, it will be accurate to say that you have cast two spells. In that manner, precocious apprentice can fulfill the requirement. The annoying thing about the word “spell” in this game is that it can refer to either a magical effect in operation or a template by which magical effects are created. As an example, when dispel magic says “you can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells,” it is using the former sense. If you use dispel magic to do away with enlarge person, it does not return everyone under the effects of enlarge person everywhere in the world to normal size. However, if it were using the other sense, every casting of enlarge person would be the same spell, and that would be the meaning.
vorpo 12-10-07, 10:51 AM	I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell. Knows one, but can cast 3, mind you.
vorpo 12-10-07, 10:52 AM	You won't lose the class. You qualify for Cerebremancer by virtue of your Cerebremancer levels and the Wizard level, which combined allow you to cast 2nd level spells. You never once lose the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells - When Precocious Apprentice shuts down, it's because you just gained the required arcane casting from a level of Cerebremancer. You can't qualify a PrC using itself. You can't even gain entry to it in the first place if you need to be there to fulfill the requirement
archerpwr 12-10-07, 11:02 AM	You can't qualify a PrC using itself. You can't even gain entry to it in the first place if you need to be there to fulfill the requirement Dude, drop it. We all know it is a grey area. That's what that comma signified. I don't put dependant clauses just anywhere.
vorpo 12-11-07, 09:36 AM	In the case of mystic theurge, this is correct. In the case of cerebremancer, it isn't. The most strict reading of the rules would be that the prerequisite is "able to cast second level spells" and Precocious Apprentice allows you to cast a single second level spell and even that is not reliable, therefore the Precocious Apprentice feat would not qualify you. If you DM wants this feat to allow characters to qualify for a prestige class, that is something you will have to discuss. Therefore, unless you are gonna houserule it otherwise, Precocious Apprentice can NOT satisfy entry requirements. Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules.
vorpo 12-11-07, 09:38 AM	Dude, drop it. We all know it is a grey area. That's what that comma signified. I don't put dependant clauses just anywhere. Grey? It's purely black and white. Grey only becuz you want it to be houseruling grey.
Maat_Mons 12-11-07, 10:08 AM	I take it, then, that sorcerer 4 doesn't qualify? After all, sorcerer 4 only knows one 2nd level spell.Knows one, but can cast 3, mind you. A 4th level sorcerer can cast an arbitrarily large number of 2nd level spells, just not in the same day. Precocious apprentice also allows you to cast an arbitrarily large number of 2nd level spells, also not in the same day. Since the entry requirements don’t contain the phrase “per day” or anything equivalent at any point, I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
Frozen Yakman 12-11-07, 10:22 AM	Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules. Except that RAW and RAI ARE house rules and we debate them all the time.
archerpwr 12-11-07, 02:14 PM	Grey? It's purely black and white. Grey only becuz you want it to be houseruling grey. Have your flamewar then. It's not like it actually helps anyone.
PhaedrusXY 12-11-07, 05:38 PM	Therefore, unless you are gonna houserule it otherwise, Precocious Apprentice can NOT satisfy entry requirements. Houserule by definition is modifying the RAW and RAI. So no point arguing houserules.The RPGA is nothing but a bunch of house rules. If it isn't in the FAQ or Errata, it isn't official for general gaming. If you want to split hairs and argue the RAW, then either 3rd level wizards with 12 or 13 Int, or 4th level sorcerers can't enter Mystic Theurge. The first only has a single 2nd level spellslot. The second only knows one second level spell. So whichever definition of spells you use to disqualify Precocious Apprentice early entry, one of those doesn't qualify, when it is obvious that it should. Really, arguing over the "RAW" is stupid in any case. In real games, DMs just say "No, you can't do that", or allow it. The only place that anyone gives a crap what the "RAW" is is on this board, and others like it. Now... I apologize for contributing to this derailing of the thread. Most dual-casters are inferior to single-classed casters as far as raw power. Having lots of low level spells/powers is not as powerful as having fewer, but more powerful spells. If the DM allows early entry via Precocious Apprentice, dual-casters are ok, but I'd still probably choose to play a single-classed caster in most cases. Even with only a single level lost from your main casting class, you're still a level behind on aquiring higher level spells. This is one of the things I hate most about the sorcerer, as compared to the wizard. However, some of the lower level Psionic powers augment very well, making them (almost) the equal of true higher level powers. Also, since both wizards and psions use Int as their main stat, a wizard/psion/cerebremancer is probably one of the best dual-casters, and can be decent even without Precocious Apprentice "cheese".