Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hatchetman 10-21-03, 11:49 PM	Hi, is it true that one can't turn/rebuke undeads if ones charisma ability modifier is -3 or less? The formula for turn undead attempts per day is 3+charisma ability modifier. It just came to my mind that you could lose your ability to turn undead at all if you got a really bad charisma score. Is this true or is there any exception, like there is for the number of skill points you get per level increase. The formular is quite similiar to the turn undead formular (class-granted-skill-points)-Int modifier, but you get at least one point per level. Greetz Hatchetman
Inigo Carmine 10-22-03, 12:04 AM	That would be true. Don't play a cleric that has a 5 or less cha if you want to turn undead. Does charisma effect the power of your turning at all?...if it does, his power to turn would be pathetic anyways. There is still hope for your pathetic cleric though. If he really really wants to turn undead, you can pick up the "extra turning" feat.
hiryuu 10-22-03, 12:15 AM	Originally posted by Hatchetman Hi, is it true that one can't turn/rebuke undeads if ones charisma ability modifier is -3 or less? The formula for turn undead attempts per day is 3+charisma ability modifier. It just came to my mind that you could lose your ability to turn undead at all if you got a really bad charisma score. Is this true or is there any exception, like there is for the number of skill points you get per level increase. The formular is quite similiar to the turn undead formular (class-granted-skill-points)-Int modifier, but you get at least one point per level. Greetz Hatchetman Minimum 1.
Inigo Carmine 10-22-03, 12:24 AM	Originally posted by hiryuu Minimum 1. Where does it say this?
hiryuu 10-22-03, 01:23 AM	Odd. It's nowhere in the SRD. Follow logical train of thought. Can a cleric with a Charisma modifier of -4 turn undead -1 times per day? Also, any numeric ability based upon an ability score modifier (modifier, not bonus) follows a pattern of minimum 1.
Thorden 10-22-03, 10:34 AM	Hi! i am an autist, an antisocial and a loser ! Yes that me, i have 5 charisma but my god still believe in me! Come on really, clerics should represent the god by some way, show how powerful their religion is, WHO would hire a lamer anitsocial?! To make sure none else would follow them?! To make the religion ridiculous?! Charisma isnt required at all to be a cleric, but still, there should be common sense here...
Hatchetman 10-22-03, 11:59 AM	Originally posted by Thorden Hi! i am an autist, an antisocial and a loser ! Yes that me, i have 5 charisma but my god still believe in me! Come on really, clerics should represent the god by some way, show how powerful their religion is, WHO would hire a lamer anitsocial?! To make sure none else would follow them?! To make the religion ridiculous?! Charisma isnt required at all to be a cleric, but still, there should be common sense here... Ever heard the proverb "might makes right"? A troll gets a -4 modifier on his charisma score, but i don't think any of his servants will yell at him because of his ugliness... Originally posted by Inigo Carmine Don't play a cleric that has a 5 or less cha if you want to turn undead. Does charisma effect the power of your turning at all?...if it does, his power to turn would be pathetic anyways. The charisma ability modifier does effect the power of ones turning attempts, but only in a minor way. Cleric levels are all that count. Originally posted by hiryuu Follow logical train of thought. Can a cleric with a Charisma modifier of -4 turn undead -1 times per day? To turn undead -1 times per day would mean he could either create or controle undeads one time per day. If it would be that way, i think it would have been mentioned somewhere. :rolleyes: If the "times you can perform an ability per day" reachs zero or below it means you just can't perform this action. I'm still curious if it was the intention of wotc to take the ability to turn/rebuke undeads away from clerics with drastical low charisma. Originally posted by hiryuu Also, any numeric ability based upon an ability score modifier (modifier, not bonus) follows a pattern of minimum 1. Can you give examples except the skill points per level increase, which i have already mentioned? If i remember correctly, even the paladins lay on hands ability would be negated if he has no positiv charisma ability modifier. That might sound odd as charisma is one of the paladins primary abilities. But don't forget that he could be the victim of a curse or even greater curse spell, which lowers his score by 6 or 8. Greetz Hatchetman
Ogre Mage 10-22-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Thorden Hi! i am an autist, an antisocial and a loser ! Yes that me, i have 5 charisma but my god still believe in me! Come on really, clerics should represent the god by some way, show how powerful their religion is, WHO would hire a lamer anitsocial?! To make sure none else would follow them?! To make the religion ridiculous?! Charisma isnt required at all to be a cleric, but still, there should be common sense here... Perhaps it is a god of solitude? Or maybe just a god of "lamer antisocials." A cleric of Sune with a 5 CHA would be fairly strange, however. Generally speaking I'd say a cleric with a CHA that low would be pretty pathetic. A fighter or wizard could get away with it, though.
edsonaoki 10-22-03, 04:04 PM	Not every cleric must be charismatic. Lonely, contemplative clerics that donīt belong to organized cults do exist. Neither all clerics are required to undead. In fact, many cleric prestige classes donīt give turn ability at all.
bitnine 10-22-03, 04:10 PM	Does that mean that a character with -1 turn attempts/day cannot help but break the rules, since he's already over his limit (at zero) at the start of each day?
Othas Qualthalas 10-22-03, 04:20 PM	Im sorry but the real question is why would you play a cleric with a cha of less than 10. That would be like playing a fighter with 17 str but 5 con. yea you can hit well but when they hit back your dead. You might as well play a 10th lvl wizard with a 11 Int. DM: what spell you casting Player: Um the only level spell i have is first!!
Kerrexl 10-22-03, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by Othas Qualthalas Im sorry but the real question is why would you play a cleric with a cha of less than 10. That would be like playing a fighter with 17 str but 5 con. yea you can hit well but when they hit back your dead. You might as well play a 10th lvl wizard with a 11 Int. DM: what spell you casting Player: Um the only level spell i have is first!! So my STR 11, Con 8 fighter is not a playable character in you mind.. ? well the guy just vants to be a fighter, he can't help it that he isn't strong, nor have a good health.... btw.. he is level 8... :)
Sorxores 10-22-03, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Kerrexl So my STR 11, Con 8 fighter is not a playable character in you mind.. ? well the guy just vants to be a fighter, he can't help it that he isn't strong, nor have a good health.... btw.. he is level 8... :) you really have 11, 8? how did you roll your die? or you just do complet anti-min/max by putting your lowest score in your "most" needed score?
Thorden 10-22-03, 07:26 PM	I didnt mentioned the monstrous races at all, this is another topic and i believe not the context here. Btw charisma is totally different than beauty. But still, by god tell me why! yes why a loner/anti social would play in a group? Why other people would even allow some anti social guys in their group (read PC group)? Maybe super holy quest / war, but thats all! High potential there :) Oh yes ! you can get role play XP reward by shuting up the whole adventure since your toon is shy / anti social !!! God damit, i should thought about it earlier ;) /sarcasm off! Honestly, PC groups should have a least some kind of logic sometimes. Nothing can prevent you from doing anything illogical (in term of realism) when you exploit the numbers & rules of the game, but i find it sad, really. You want to play a monster? There are MUCH better games for that, like Vampire RPG. You would enjoy it way more, as well as the players around you. Now i am not judging anyone, i just tried to give a friendly advice, some kind of warning about ABUSING min / max toons, which ruins the fun of other players. I had the problem once with an insane character, otpimized like the devil, was able to do anything, ruining the DM's fun as well as the player's fun... Have a nice day
Stuntman 10-22-03, 08:43 PM	A cleric with a -3 or worse modifier for Cha can turn undead if he takes the Extra Turning feat. Also, increasing your Cha with Eagle's Splendor can bring your Cha high enough temporarily to allow you to turn undead at least once a day.
Dave1001 10-22-03, 08:53 PM	minimum one. just think of it this way. Skill points are X + Int mod. If you're Fighter with a 6 Int or less, you get the minimum allowed (1). Otherwise, you'd lose ranks each level! So it may not say so explicitly, but it's not too hard to make the jump from the skill to the ability.
edsonaoki 10-22-03, 09:16 PM	Im sorry but the real question is why would you play a cleric with a cha of less than 10. That would be like playing a fighter with 17 str but 5 con. yea you can hit well but when they hit back your dead. You might as well play a 10th lvl wizard with a 11 Int. Err.. actually a cleric with 8 CHA but 20 WIS and 18 CON seems pretty powerful to me.. at least more than a fighter with 5 CON or a wizard with 11 INT. Who cares if you canīt turn undead if you can blow them to pieces? Or, if the campaign almost donīt have undead?
Stuntman 10-22-03, 11:02 PM	Originally posted by Dave1001 minimum one. just think of it this way. Skill points are X + Int mod. If you're Fighter with a 6 Int or less, you get the minimum allowed (1). Otherwise, you'd lose ranks each level! So it may not say so explicitly, but it's not too hard to make the jump from the skill to the ability. The difference between skill points and the number of times you can turn undead is that the PH specifically states that you get a minimum of 4 skill points at first level and 1 skill point per level beyond 1st regardless of intelligence. The PH does not say anything about a minimum of one turn undead attempt. For this reason, I think that if your Cha modifier is -3 or worse, you cannot turn undead. You can take the Extra Turning feat which gives you +4 turn undead attempts or increase your Cha with Eagle's Splendor or other type of effect.
Sir Ferdinand 10-23-03, 10:16 AM	OK, so where does it say that a Cleric with -3 modifier still has 1 Turn Undead per day? For example a Paladin with 0 or - modifier in Cha can't use Lay On Hands at all. From FAQ: "Is it true that a paladin without a positive Charisma modifier cannot use lay on hands? Yes. A paladin's Charisma bonus governs the lay on hands ability. If you don't have a Charisma bonus, you don't lay on hands, so be sure to assign good Charisma scores to your paladin characters."
startide 10-23-03, 11:20 AM	a wizard with an 8 int can't automatically cast 1st level spells. i am not buying it. clerices with a -3 cha score cannot turn undead unless they take extra turning
bitnine 10-23-03, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by startide a wizard with an 8 int can't automatically cast 1st level spells. Indeed, he can only cast negative 1st level spells.
startide 10-23-03, 11:55 AM	don't be stupid
Kerrexl 10-23-03, 12:47 PM	Originally posted by Sorxores you really have 11, 8? how did you roll your die? or you just do complet anti-min/max by putting your lowest score in your "most" needed score? the default 4d6 rolls, however due to his bagground storie, I couldn't argue that I should place a higher stat in these two attributes..
bitnine 10-23-03, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by startide don't be stupid Well, some might liken that to an interprtation that, as it stands, could require a cleric to limit himself to -1 turning attempts each day. However, I wouldn't be as abrasive as calling such proponents names.
Xorial 10-23-03, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by hiryuu Follow logical train of thought. Can a cleric with a Charisma modifier of -4 turn undead -1 times per day? If the DM was really mean, and the cleric was a little stuipid and deranged, the DM may rule that any negative attempts ATTRACT the undead. Be a little comical to see him think that he just cant get it right for some reason. Always trying to repent his imagined sins, to get his turning ability back.:smirk: