Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Benway 01-13-06, 03:26 AM	Greetings folks! I have been mulling over the lack of unique and flavorful feats and PrC's for chain wielding characters for some time now. I was hoping to see a revamp of Master of Chains in one of the Complete Class books but alas, the closest we got was the generic Exotic Weapons Master. Not a bad class, but fairly general and lacking of specific flavor. Also, there is a distinctive lack of high end feats for chainweapon-wielders in the realm of the Two Weapon Fighting, Many Shot, or Cleave paths. So having given it some thought. and after some scribbles in my notepad, I decided to throw down this post with a few new ideas for feats and PrC's to fill the gap. These feats and class features are based around chain weapons in general. That is to say, any weapon with a flexible chain as a major aspect of its construction that is capable of making both trip and disarm checks. In the PhB the following weapons qualify for this: Light Flail Heavy Flail Dire Flail Spiked Chain Other weapons from various settings and supplements may qualify depending on your DM. Generally, any weapon that meats the above requirements should qualify. FEATS Chain Grapple [General] You are skilled in tangling and pinning foes with your chain weapon. Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Weapon Focus (any chain weapon) Benefit: You may make a grapple check with your chain wepaon out to the extent of its reach. The grapple is intiated by a normal attack roll, rather than a touch attack. This is a standard grapple check that uses your own modifier plus your weapon's size modifier if it is different than your own. If an opponent cannot reach you it cannot attempt to pin you in turn during a grapple. They may instead attempt to disarm you of the chain weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity. On a successful grapple check you do your chain weapon's damage plus half your strength bonus. Normal: You may only make a grapple attempt unarmed. Special: A fighter may select Chain Grapple as a fighter bonus feat. This feat may replace Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite for the Improved Grapple feat. Greater Improved Disarm [General] You are a master of disarming your foes and removing their weapons or items. Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Weapon Focus(any chain weapon), BAB+6 or greater. Benefit: Upon successfully disarming an opponent witha chain weapon, the character may immediately deposit the disarmed item into any space within the reach of thier weapon. Normal: When you disarm an opponent with a weapon their disarmed item drops into the opponent's square, or may be taken if you have a free hand. Special: A fighter may select Greater Improved Disarm as a fighter bonus feat. Greater Improved Trip [General] Your twining chain weapon makes sure footing a dicy proposition for your opponents. Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus(any Chain weapon), BAB+6 or greater. Benefit: Upon successfully striking an opponent in melee combat, you may immdediately attempt to trip them as a free action. Normal: Tripping an opponent in combat normally counts as an attack action. Special: A fighter may select Greater Improved Trip as a fighter bonus feat. TACTICAL FEATS The Binding Chain [Tactical] Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus(any Chain weapon), Chain Grapple, BAB+6 or greater. Benefit: The Binding Chain feat enables the use of three combat maneuvers. Entwining Chain: To use this maneuver you must use your Combat Expertise feat and you may not take a penalty of less than -5. On the following round as a standard action, you may make an attempt to incapacitate the limb of any foe who attacked you in the previous round. On a successful melee touch attack with your chain weapon you do no damage, but entwine the opponent's limb. The opponent is considered Entangled and suffers one of the following additonal penalties dependant on the limb: Arm: The opponent may not use the arm to take strenuous actions such as attacking or casting spells with a somantic component. Leg: The opponent suffers a -4 to reflex saves(-2 if possessed of more than 2 legs) when standing, and their ground movement is halved. Head: The opponent suffers a -2 to listen, search, and spot checks, and cannot speak. Wing: If the wing is necesary for flight the opponent is incapable of flying and if is in the air, they immediately begin to fall at the beginning of their next turn. Other: If the opponent has other unusal limbs such as eyestalks or a tail then the DM will have to use appropriate judgement. Some are easy...entwining a merfolk's tail would have much the same effect as a human's leg etc. An entangled character can only move within the reach of the weapon entangling them. On their turn, they may attempt to free themselves as a full round action by attempting to break the chain, by an escape artist check with a DC of 10+the attacker's BAB, or by disarming the attacker of their chain weapon. Summoning Chain: To use this manuever you make a melee attack with your chain weapon as a standard action. If successful you do damage as normal and can then make a grapple check as a free action (as tho you had the improved grab ability). This is a standard grapple check that uses your own modifier plus your weapon's size modifier if it is different than your own. Success establishes a hold, pulls the target into your square, and does damage according to the weapon plus your strength modifier. From this point on you may attempt to maintain the grapple round by round as described in the PHB except that damage from a successful grapple roll is from your weapon rather then your unarmed damage. Chain of Sleep: To use this ability you must have previously successfully entwined the head of an opponent using the entwining chain combat maneuver or successfully grappled an opponent with your chain weapon, maintaining the pin for one full round. At the end of the round your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 your character level + your STR modifier) or fall unconscious for 1 round for every point you exceeded their save(minimum 1 round). Note: This maneuver only works against living targets that breathe. Special: A fighter may select The Binding Chain as a fighter bonus feat. The Chain of Denial [Tactical] Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus(any Chain weapon), Spring Attack, BAB+6 or greater. Benefit: The Chain of Denial feat enables the use of three combat maneuvers. Ghost Lash You may designate one square whithin the reach of your chain weapon as the square from which flanking with an ally is determined(including the square you are in, as normal). Designating a square is a free action, but it may only be done at the beginning of your turn and remains so until your next turn or until you move. You may not pick a space that is impassable or fully occupied. Note: It is possible in this way to effectively flank an opponent you cannot actually hit. This combat maneuver does not work against mindless foes. Imposing Hydra: To use this maneuver you must use the full defense action in combat on your turn. Until your next turn, you may make a special attack of opportunity against any target that attempts to enter the threatened area of your chain weapon, up to your normal limit. If you hit and successfully do damage the target cannot enter the intended space and its movement is immediately checked for the remainder of the round. The target may still take any actions still open to it from its current positon, if possible. You may not move in any round in which you initiate an imposing hydra. If you do, or if somehthing moves you against your will, the imposing hydra immediately ends. Launching Lash: When making a Spring attack you may make some or all of your move along a vertical or even upside-down surface so long as you end your movement either on a level surface or in the air as part of a jump (see pg 77 in the PHB). You may attack from any surface you are traversing while performing this maneuver. Special: A fighter may select The Chain of Denial as a fighter bonus feat. PRESTIGE CLASS The Elite Chain The Elite Chains are a group of unparalleled skirmishers and front line combatants. They pride themselves on being as flexible and deadly on the battlefield as their chosen weapons and adopted name. They could easily be inserted into an existing campaign world as an elite and exclusive force within the standard military, or as a secretive and secluded order gaurding the secrets of a long forgotten martial system... Hit Dice: D8 Requirements: To become an Elite Chain a character must fulfill the following criteria. Alignment: Any Base Attack Bonus: +9 Skills: Intimidate 10 ranks, Knowledge(History) 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus(any chain weapon), Weapon Specialization(any chain weapon) Note: To qualify for this prestige class you must have both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in the same weapon. Special: You must either be accepted into the Elite Chains or have gained their trust in some deep and meaningful way in order for them to impart thier time honored secrets of battle. Class Skills: The Elite Chain's class skills(and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Hide(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(History), Move Silently(Dex), Use Rope(Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), and Tumble(Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 2+Int modifier The Elite Chain Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 1 +0 +2 +0 Chain Master, Chain Wall 2 2 +0 +3 +0 Rapid Lash, Bonus Feat 3 3 +1 +3 +1 Double Chain OR Flurry of Strikes 4 4 +1 +4 +1 Sweeping Strike, Bonus Feat 5 5 +1 +4 +1 Riplash Class Features: All of the following are class features of The Elite Chain prestige class: Chain Master: When using thier chosen weapon, the character receives a bonus to opposed trip and disarm checks, and to confirm a critical hit, equal to their Elite Chain level. Chain Wall: As part of the full defense action the character may initiate a chain wall. Using thier chain weapon, the character creates a spinning rippling field composed of whirling chain before themselves. The size of the chain wall is determined by the type of weapon they are using. The chain wall of a singe weapon with 5' of reach is one space. A double weapon is two contiguous spaces, and a weapon with 10' of reach occupies three contiguous spaces. When the character creates the chain wall they may select one face of thiers in which to position it. The chracter may maintain a chain wall round by round without ending it so long as they continue taking the total defense action. While generating a chain wall, the character may not move. If they are moved for any reason, the chain wall ends. Until their next turn the character and any allies positioned behind the chain wall gain the following benefits: The character may deflect any incomming missile that would otherwise strike themselves or an ally that passes through their chain wall as though they had the deflect arrows feat. The number of missiles they may deflect is equal to the characters normal number of attacks of opportunity +1(minimum 1). Additionally all allies protected by the chain wall gain a +2 deflection bonus to ac. If an opponent attmepts to enter a space occupied by an active chain wall they take damage as normal if struck by the weapon and must immediately resist a special trip check or be prevented from entering the space and have their movement checked for the remainder of the round. They may still take any actions still open to them, if possible. If an opponent successfully resists this special trip attack, they may act normally and the chain wall immediately ends. At third level the chain wall becomes effective versus magically generated missles such as melf's acid arrow, but not force effects or massive missiles. The deflection bonuses increases at this level to +3. At fifth level the whirling chain creates an effect similar to a field of force, appying its protection to force effects and missiles such as those generated by magic missile, and incoporeal objects and opponets. The deflection bonus at this level increases to +4. Rapid Lash: If you act first in the first regular round of combat, you may draw your chain weapon as a free action. If you do this as part of an attack, the target is considered to be flat footed. You may only use this ability once per combat encounter in the first round of combat. Bonus feat: At second and fourth level the character gains a bonus feat. These feats must be selected from the special list of fighter bonus feats. The character must still meet all requirements for these feats as normal. Double Chain OR Flurry of Strikes: At third level the character may select one of the two following abilities. Double Chain: If the character's chosen weapon is a spiked chain or similar chain weapon with flexible reach, they may choose to treat their weapon as a double weapon incurring all appropriate penalties and effects. They may make this choice once per round at the beginning of their turn as a free action and it remains so until the beginning of their next turn. If they do, the weapon loses its reach and each end does one die level less damage. If the weapon is enchanted, both ends receive the benefits of these enchantments while it is being treated as a double weapon. Note that fighting with a double weapon incurs all the normal penalties of fighting with a one handed weapon and a light weapon, and this class feature does not convey any specail ability to do so. Flurry of Strikes: While wielding thier chosen weapon, the character may elect to use a full attack action to make a flurry of strikes. When doing so, they may make one extra attack at his full base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made in that round and until the character's next turn. If the character is using a double weapon the extra attack may be with either end of the weapon. Sweeping Strike: At fourth level the character gains the ability to make great sweeping strikes with their chosen weapon. On each melee attack the character makes, he can choose two adjacent squares he threatens, and his attacks apply to creatures in both of those squares equally. The character can apply this ability to any attack, even an attack of opportunity or cleave attempt. The character cannot use this ability if they have moved more than ten feet since the end of their last turn. If the character drops one or more of their opponents with a sweeping strike, they may attempt to cleave normally; however, they make only one cleave attempt per sweeping strike, even if they drop more than one foe. Riplash: If the character successfully strikes and does damage to the same opponent two or more times in the same round with thier chosen weapon, they may choose to do additional damage to that opponent as their chain rends and tears, causing grievous tissue damage. The damage is handled similarly to a rend attack, doing damage equal to double the weapon's normal damage plus double the standard stength bonus applied to that attack. This ability may only be used once per opponent per round. Expample: Vondaash the Elite Chain is fighting a squad of Orcs, his trusty dire flail in his hands. He lashes out with the primary end of his weapon hitting twice and doing 1d8+3(from his 16 stength) each time. The grinding chain and sharp spikes dig deeply into his foes foul flesh, rending it badly. He does an additional 2d8+6. If he had used the off-hand side of his weapon twice successfully, his extra damage would have been 2d8+2. So thats it folks! I put a bit of time into thinking about these things, but even as I spent the past few days typing this all out I kept coming up with more ideas that I had to scribble down for a fututre post. For the time being, I would love to get some input on what people think of this material. Please keep in mind that this is only the first draft of these things, and I expect to modify it all at least a bit before its done. But please, all constructive criticsm, espescially in terms of requirments and balance for level, is very welcome. Also, if this material has sparked any creative urges in any of you, I would love to see any and all of your ideas along these lines and concerning these weapons, feats, classes, and styles. Cheers friends! ;) DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
OmiKapSi 01-13-06, 03:51 AM	For what it's worth, the normal feats look quite balanced, and I'd have no trouble allowing them into a game that I ran on a provisional basis. I don't have any experience with tactical feats, so I'll leave those. The prestige class looks a little powerful. I'd recommend looking over other comparable prestige classes to balance it out a bit. Off the top of my head, I'd recommend making it a 10 level class and spreading the abilities out over those 10 levels. For example, a straight fighter entering this class would give up only one bonus feat and in exchange gain 6 unique abilities. While I understand that in theory the difficulty of qualifying for the class (r.e. the special condition) would balance this out somewhat, in practice scarcity is generally not an appropriate balance for power.
Dr. Benway 01-13-06, 09:53 AM	Hey thanks for input. What specifically in the class seemd powerful to you? What seemed more powerful than another class with its level entry requirements? Specifics man, I need specifics! Thanks in advance, DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Linklegacy77 01-13-06, 10:19 AM	In short, I would say a lot of this is overpowered. Chain grapple would appear to be fine. Greater Improved Disarm is fine. Greater improved trip is where I start to see how overpowered these things can get, especially with your PRC. As for your tactical feats, you do know that called shots have been removed right? This looks very similar to a called shot. Chain of Denial is ridiculous. As cool as launching lash sounds, it isn't very tactical. You merely can run on walls and ceilings while attacking. The Imposing Hydra is also ridiculous. You stop all movement for hitting them, their only chance of avoiding it is AC. Also, the way you have it written, if a human fighter with a spiked chain does this, any enemy moving from 15' to 10' away would provoke this special attack of opportunity, even with a 5' step. Now for the PRC: Chain wall isn't all that great, since an enemy can just walk around it. You should mention with the bonus feat that you have to meet the prerequisites. Sweeping strike essentially gives the character double attacks that round. Also, riplash is insane. Utterly, utterly, and utterly, insane. Even the swashbuckler who gains a similar ability has to wait until 18 or 19th level to get his, and has to critical, and he does 2 con damage, not 1d4, which has a 50/50 chance of doing even more. Hitting twice in one round isn't really all that hard, especially if you are using the flurry option or the twf option. Especially since your class has a full base attack bonus. If you'll notice, the monk has a 3/4 base attack bonus.
RadicalTaoist 01-13-06, 01:20 PM	I'm going to have to disagree with you LinkLegacy. It only looks overpowered because it grants Fighters and other melee classes abilities they did not have before. They very badly need new abilities and tricks. These feats are the kind of thing the Fighter needs badly and I must say the good Doctor is making my game feel much healthier. :clap::bow: As for the PrC, I'd up the BAB requirement (+10 to +12) and make sure Chain Wall gives a Reflex save to avoid damage (DC 10+half character level+Str bonus). Nothing should have an automatic hit effect.
Dr. Benway 01-13-06, 03:09 PM	[QUOTE=Linklegacy77]In short, I would say a lot of this is overpowered. Greater improved trip is where I start to see how overpowered these things can get Keep in mind that there is a precedent for the auto tripping mechanic. A few different creature...nost notable wolves who are 1hd critters, can attempt to auto trip every time the hit you. The prereqs make this viable I thought... As for your tactical feats, you do know that called shots have been removed right? This looks very similar to a called shot. I was thinking more along the lines of specifc penalties for getting entwined depending onhow you want to handicap them...the limb explanation was more of a flavor reason for the penalty existing...but I see how it could be seen as incorporating called shots...any suggestions on another way to gt to the same effect? THats the kind of input I am looking for... As cool as launching lash sounds, it isn't very tactical. You merely can run on walls and ceilings while attacking. I dont see how that is not a tactical advantage.... The Imposing Hydra is also ridiculous. You stop all movement for hitting them, their only chance of avoiding it is AC. Also, the way you have it written, if a human fighter with a spiked chain does this, any enemy moving from 15' to 10' away would provoke this special attack of opportunity, even with a 5' step. Keep in mind also that to set tha tup you must take the defense action on your turn, not attack, not move, and HOPE that you positioned yourself into a place where it can be effective and that your enemies will actually try toenter your range. Yes their movement is checked, but there a number of ways you could do that...including readying an action trip etc. This just allows you to do it to more than one person, and it is also limited to the number of AOO you have. It is a powerful ability, but I dont beleive you are tkaing into account the specific situations and limitations that go along with it...perhaps look at it again? Now for the PRC: Chain wall isn't all that great, since an enemy can just walk around it. It is indeed meant to be used intellegently and tactically in the right situations... You should mention with the bonus feat that you have to meet the prerequisites. Good point forget to be specific there. Sweeping strike essentially gives the character double attacks that round. Yes, it is almost word for word an ability from the Warmind prestige class, except more limited in the ways it can be used, and unlike the WM it can only be done with the specifc chosen weapon. Also, riplash is insane.Utterly, utterly, and utterly, insane. Even the swashbuckler who gains a similar ability has to wait until 18 or 19th level to get his, and has to critical, and he does 2 con damage, not 1d4, which has a 50/50 chance of doing even more. Perhaps its mechanic needs a little reworking, but insane? Thats a blatant overstatement. There are first level spells that drain con, player races that can do it at first level, for the exact same amount I might add, and entry level +1 enchantments that do it. When you look at all these things they have a very low level accessability...at the very best you arent getting this ability here until level 12. Hitting twice in one round isn't really all that hard, especially if you are using the flurry option or the twf option. Especially since your class has a full base attack bonus. If you'll notice, the monk has a 3/4 base attack bonus. I would refer you to the exotic weapon master from the complete warrior book. This is a full BAB class that gets this exact ability word for word and has a lower and easier entry requirement than this class... Hey RadicalTaoist thanks for the kind words...you and I are on the some page I believe. Lets have some truely unique, fun, and worth it PrC's and abilities for fighters. They need some flash and style which they have seriously been lacking...that being said lemme address your comment.. [QUOTE=RadicalTaoist]As for the PrC, I'd up the BAB requirement (+10 to +12) and make sure Chain Wall gives a Reflex save to avoid damage (DC 10+half character level+Str bonus). Nothing should have an automatic hit effect. I was already beginning to think about upping it to a BAB requirement of 9 or so and tacking on another feat requirement...but nothing concrete yet. What do you think of that? I hope I have addressed the issues and questions you folks have had so far about the material here. I would like to know what you think after reading this. Thanks for giving me some input tho, it got me thinking on some stuff, which is definately what I want! Keep it coming! DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Dr. Benway 01-13-06, 03:23 PM	UPDATE: Elite Chain prereq's updated in the following ways: Increased the BAB requirement from +7 to +9 Added Combat Reflexes feat to requirements Increased the minimum levles of Knowledge(history) and Tumble from 5 ranks to 6 ranks. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Dr. Benway 01-13-06, 09:21 PM	Thinking of increasing the BAB requirement on Chain of Denial from +6 to +9...any thoughts folks? I dont think I have seen a tactical feat with a BAB requirement of anything other than 6 tho... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Dr. Benway 01-17-06, 02:36 PM	After due consideration I have decided to change the effects of the Riplash ability. My initial thought on this ability was that I wanted to simulate the effects of the excessive tissue damage that would come from the being twined and torn and ripped and lashed by sharp chains. Initially I thought CON damage would be the best answer to this...and I actually am still considering it. However, I was also thinking of a Rend mechanic. Most creatures that have Rend do damage equal twice the weapons damage plus STR bonus x1.5. That would be fairly decent damage with a chain weapon. Generaly, if they hit twice they get to rend as a free action...my question to you folks is, do you think that is a decent capping ability for this class? Is there a better mechanic for this idea that you folks could suggest? I am still considering the CON damage thing, just trying to figure out a good mechanic for it....any thoughts or suggestions folks? Cheers, DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
unrulycow 01-18-06, 08:11 PM	Interesting class. I found this just as I was about to post my own chain based prestige class. I went in a bit of a different direction though. Let me know what you think. Chain Dancer http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8265225
periscope 01-18-06, 11:12 PM	Hi, love those feats. Quick question though, if using an enchanted chain weapon with the chain grapple feat, do you gain the enchantment bonus or any other effects (flaming, keen, vicious) while grappling and on your grapple check (for the enhancement bonus)?
Dr. Benway 01-18-06, 11:29 PM	Hi, love those feats. Quick question though, if using an enchanted chain weapon with the chain grapple feat, do you gain the enchantment bonus or any other effects (flaming, keen, vicious) while grappling and on your grapple check (for the enhancement bonus)? At this time you would get those bonuses only on the damage you would do from successive grapple checks with the chain itself. However, I was thinking about a weapon enchantment for both chain weapons and nets that allows you to add the weapon's enhancement bonus to your grapple checks made with it. Whaddaya think? Is that a +1 bonus, or maybe +2? Thanks for the great input folks... Cheers! DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Dr. Benway 01-18-06, 11:42 PM	Interesting class. I found this just as I was about to post my own chain based prestige class. I went in a bit of a different direction though. Let me know what you think. Chain Dancer http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8265225 Me likie! I was seriously considering adding a Dervish style attack routine to this class. I thought it very appropriate for the idea of a battlefield-controlling chain wielder. If I were to make Elite Chain into a 10 level class as some have suggested I would probably add these or similar abilities. Well done I like it very much... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Oswald Krato 01-19-06, 08:31 AM	Isn't spiked chain enough? You can really trick out a chainmaster with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, etc. etc. etc. Point being: There's plenty of ways to seriously trick out a chainsman already. No need to further it.
ThiefofSouls 01-19-06, 09:33 AM	Pretty cool stuff you got here. Really liked this, it makes figthers look cool again ^^ Sadly for now we got only chain weapons, it would be pretty cool having similar ideas for other kinds of weapon, or maybe broaden the feats a little. Like having Greater Trip work for weapons that gives bonuses on trips, thies would reflect how you mastered the use of the weapon advantages, but this is just a thought. Hope you keep coming with this and add stuff for other weapons as well
Dr. Benway 01-19-06, 03:23 PM	Any thoughts on the questions I asked about the possible modifications to the feats and class? I have ideas but its always good to get some outside input to help put things in perspective...thanks in advance ;) Cheers, DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Dr. Benway 01-30-06, 12:22 PM	shamless :bump:
Dr. Benway 05-28-06, 12:08 AM	Been awhile folks but I finally did some updating. More is in the works but the first round of changes is now reposted in red. Give it all a fresh read and then get back to me here and let me know your thoughts...and where, if anywhere you think I should update or modify next... Cheers! DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?