Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fair_dm 08-27-06, 03:54 PM	what is the best character build to defeat(or atleast make a Challenge) a group of PC that is as following: 1 lvl 16monk 1 lvl 4rogue/3fighter/9ranger 1 lvl 8cleric/8warpriest:ghosted: 1 lvl 3cleric/3wiz/10mystictherurg (is member here and is called fair_player) 1 lvl 8fighter/8defender of ?sean? 1 lvl 16rogue remember that these players are high powered whith equipment(i did that becouse it was going to be a chalenging campaign all DnD and FR books are allowed i was thinking on a ranger/assasin/scout whith a "aim for the head" and "shot and run" tactic, he can also migt poisen the food? or booby trap something. im only interested in class selection, i'll make the charackter myself;)
__DnD4Life__ 08-27-06, 04:03 PM	Frenzy Berzerker. Make sure he is raging, and has at least 4 levels in FB. That will give him Deathless Frenzy, and almost un-killable. Give him a spiked chain, and moderate dex, and he will be AoO and powerattacking your players to the moon. Just hope the MT has either Grease, Calm Emotions, or save-or-die spells memorized. But, since you are a Fair DM (as your name implies) I would not reccomend this unless you are looking for a TPK. You could just use a persistant cleric with all his buffs up for 24 hours, and come ready to battle. Nothing like a cleric with +6 str +4con and full bab, as well as healing and other buffs. That would really hurt them, but not as much as the FB.
SageBahamut 08-27-06, 04:40 PM	I made a Ftr15 build recently that would hold up against that group. He would probably need some healing, only because there are six of them and I've never tested him against a group that big, but it might work. A warlock of appropriate level would be really good, especially if he had minions who could trick the casters into wasting all their big-damage spells.
DragonChild_ 08-27-06, 04:41 PM	Frenzy Berzerker. Make sure he is raging, and has at least 4 levels in FB. That will give him Deathless Frenzy, and almost un-killable. Give him a spiked chain, and moderate dex, and he will be AoO and powerattacking your players to the moon. Just hope the MT has either Grease, Calm Emotions, or save-or-die spells memorized. Actually, unless the Frenzied Beserker has some non-racial ability to ignore subdual damage, he's still going to be easily knocked out just by dealing damage to him. If you're looking for a good, high level encounter - you probablly don't want to stick with only one opponent. If this a "final boss" type thing? Make it a cabal of wizards, an entire cult, a pack of demons, something with multiple enemies in it.
fair_dm 08-27-06, 04:41 PM	ill go for the frenzy berskerker, ill update and tell how it went. thanks for the help;)
__DnD4Life__ 08-27-06, 05:47 PM	Necropolitan. Sure, you will lose out on CON, but if you cant be killed, what is a few HP going to matter? OR, you could do a regen barb, with the trollblooded feat from dragon mag #???. it gives you Regen 1, but you are fatigued in sunlight, so you take the daylight acclimated feat from FRCS which specifically says "all adverse conditions from being in sunlight do not apply". So, 2 feats for regen 1. Cheese? Yes. Raw? Yes. As SageBahumut said, the warlock would be a good solution, if he had Fell flight, walk unseen, devils sight, eldrich spear, and Entropic warding. Fly 200ft up, go invisible, and shoot EBs at them. It wouldnt take long, and you gain 20% miss chance, and you can see in all magical darkness, and invisibility. Also, a ring of blink and a chausible of fell power would be awesome too.
DragonChild_ 08-27-06, 05:57 PM	Necropolitan. Sure, you will lose out on CON, but if you cant be killed, what is a few HP going to matter? Except, as written, Deathless Frenzy won't do jack for you - it says you aren't dying at -1 to -9, not disabled at 0, and continues to fight at -10 HP. It says nothing about not being destroyed at 0 HP like an undead would be. OR, you could do a regen barb, with the trollblooded feat from dragon mag #???. it gives you Regen 1, but you are fatigued in sunlight, so you take the daylight acclimated feat from FRCS which specifically says "all adverse conditions from being in sunlight do not apply". So, 2 feats for regen 1. Cheese? Yes. Raw? Yes. How is this overpowered? At all? You heal 1 HP per turn. You will STILL get knocked out by a good deal of damage, Deathless Frenzy or no. The only cheese is if it works on an undead, and I think I recall it not helping them, but I'd have to look it up.
Asurya 08-28-06, 09:35 AM	it IS overpower in that someone with regen only takes subdual damage when struck, usually a special king of attack bypass it (fire for troll for example). Basically, if you have regen and nobody strikes you with your anathema, you cannot die. Yes you fall uncouncious but you pop up as soon as you reach 1 HP, it's only a matter of time I don't see the special cheese when adding undead in the equation however :confused: ... could-you explain it to me? As for the "daylight acclimated feat" I think it's OMGWTF-uberBroken if a vampire could select it, and therefore become daywalker... I dont have the source so if you could tell me more (about what bypass the regen and the prereq/special ban of the daylight thing), thanks in advance
Maraxus 08-28-06, 12:07 PM	Hey, Frenzied Berzerker, you are hit by a Desintegration spell. You crumble to dust, but your deathless frenzy says, you can still fight on. You are now the strongest pile of dust, the world has ever seen. Say "NO!" to Frenzied Berserkers, they are one of the worsed ideas, WotC ever had. About the party: It's obvious, that they have a great deal of secondary fighting power. But there is only 1 true fighter and less then 1 arcane caster. This means, that you can attack them without any problem, either with the Big, BIG, BIG, bad, evil guy, or you counter them with an arcane caster on your side. Or you mix this, but then you could come to a gish character, what is compleatly diffrent and plays to this groups favor. Important here is the spell selection. BBBBEG: This could be a dragon or a giant. If you want it to be really big and a Dragon, it could be to strong however. An exceptional Ogre or Hill Giant with Barbarien levels, a pair of Ettin, or if you want to get huge, an Athach or ... Treant ... can be interesting choises. :) Basicly all Giant are available at this level, with more or less class levels on top. This is especially useful, if you want him to be both smart and stereotypical. The Half-Fiend Template works good with this, too. It increases the power even more and gives the creature a mean spell resistence. Example: (Half-Fiend Stone Giant) Tower Rockson Neutral Evil Large Outsider (Earth, Native) Barbarien 4 Fighter 2 CR 8+3+6=17 (and underlings for ~ +1) Abilities: Str 32, Dex 18, Con 26, Int 19, Wis 15, Cha 10 Skills: Climb, Hide, Listen, Spot maxed out, Move silently maxed out cross-class, Good Survival, Jump, Swim, Knowledge skills crossclass (including "local"), maybe a bit of Spellcraft crossclass. Feats: (7+2) Power Attack, Iron Will, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind attack, Improved Trip, Knock-Down. Posessions: (~5600 gp value) Cloak of resistence +1 Spiked Chain Shirt +1 Guisarme +1 3 MW Nets, Mighty +5 Comp. Longbow +50 arrows, some throwing-rocks. Potion of Invisibility, Oil of Silence, Potion of Enlarge Giant (Custom Spell) Potion of Lesser Restoration Attacks: +27/+22/+17/+12 Guisame or +20/+15/+10/+5 Bow, or 2 slams +26, or Armor spikes +26/+21/... or throwing-rock +20. AC: 10+11nat+5armor+4dex=30 (+1dodge) Spell resistence 30 (You could lower this to something like 26, to be fair) Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10. ... Tower Rockson is an extraordenary intelligent giantish being. He likes good preparations and oppressing smaller beings. He has quite some goblins and kobolds as underlings and is usually accompanied by a Goblin-Blue-Psion and a Kobold-Sorcerer both around level 6-8, 1d3 Rogues Level 4-6 and a random mix of 3d10 Level 1 Rogues, Fighters and Warriors. In combat, he prefers ambush and melee. He will charge into the opponents and attack the weakest-looking target first. In the first round, he will use a whilwind attack in combination with Knock-Down, and his underlings charge. The Psion and the Sorcerer have special order to counter enemy-magic, like outlining invisible, using Prot. from Evil vs. Mind Control, buffing Rockson with Fly and Haste etc. Rockson will rage as soon as possible, unless he allready used his potion of lesser restoration before. Nevertheless, he will use combat maneuvers, primary trip/knockdown, but also sunder/grapple, if he can do so without fearing an AoO. The arcane evil overlord: This one is a little harder, because the group should be able to kill him in one round, if they catch him unprepared. So they should not. Always have a contingency-spell. Dimension Door, for example. Greater Invisibility is good, too. Race: If you want to be mean, take a Rhakshasa. Loose 3 Levels of Spellcasting and much NPC-equipment, but gain massive defencive powers like a great damage reduction and spell resistence. Lich is definitly a classic choise, but offers not really much for his +2CR. More for flavor, take one class level away instead of 2 and they still have a tough fight and earn more for it. A really cruel choise would be the Ghost. Only +2 LA, too, but you get so much more out of it. A Ghost Sorcerer Evil Overlord will defintly make your players shake in fear. However, before giving him Anti-Magic field, make sure, the party's wizard has plane shift remembered, or you will likely have a total party kill! Sorcerer vs. Wizard is a tought choise. I prefer Sorcerer, especially for NPCs. Special demand goes to the spells Black Tentacles, Dominate person and again - Dimension Door. A ring of counterspells should be primarry equiped, with Dispel magic in it. Should the character know enough about the party, he might also do the really dirty trick: Turn invisible via. conticency (specific word, not command word. So you have it up as a free action.) Then he moves to avoid blind-fighters and prepares to counterspell. The Mixture: What can be big and Magic at the same time. Right: Even bigger dragons, than the BIG brutes. But there are other choises, too: Ogre Mage. This one makes a very good Evil Overlord. However, for this group, you have to make sure, you don't forget one thing: They are better at buffing. So still: Preasure from the first round on, with whatever ability. Any big, strong creature with powerful Spell-like abilities works here, Later Pit Fiends/Solars fal into this category, too. Another option is to take a big, strong monster and give it Levels in Sorcerer/Wizard, with the rule: +2 nonassociated class levels == +1 CR. This could, for example Create an Ettin (CR 6) Sorcerer 14, that is supposed to have a CR of 17 (because the first 6 level of Sorcerer increase the CR only by 3). CR 17 should be quite easy for such a big level 16 group, but I don't think they will find it so easy.
DragonChild_ 08-28-06, 01:45 PM	it IS overpower in that someone with regen only takes subdual damage when struck, usually a special king of attack bypass it (fire for troll for example). Yes and no. Is it overpowered for PCs to have a troll like regeneration, even if it's 1? Yes. Is it overpowered for PCs to have an ogre magi like regeneration 1 for a feat? No. Is it overpowered for NPCs to have a troll like regeneration 1 for a feat? I dare say it's underpowered. I don't see the special cheese when adding undead in the equation however ... could-you explain it to me? Regeneration means you only take subdual damage, unless it's your anathema. Undead are immune to subdual damage. You do the math. Hey, Frenzied Berzerker, you are hit by a Desintegration spell. You crumble to dust, but your deathless frenzy says, you can still fight on. You are now the strongest pile of dust, the world has ever seen. Say "NO!" to Frenzied Berserkers, they are one of the worsed ideas, WotC ever had. Untrue. If a disintigrate spell brings a Frenzied Beserker to 0 HP, he is DEAD, gone, finished, nada, no more. Read the Deathless Frenzy description. He's GONE. Deathless Frenzy most certainly does NOT say you can still fight on. In addition, what most people don't relize is that Deathless Frenzy doesn't stop you from knocking out with subdual damage. So even if our frenzied beserker was taken down to -23 HP with a Fireball, he'll be knocked out from one point of subdual damage. Seeing as he takes subdual damage every round during a frenzy...
Maraxus 08-28-06, 04:53 PM	Regeneration means you only take subdual damage, unless it's your anathema. Undead are immune to subdual damage. You do the math.I don't know, if it's a general rule, but usually, somebody with regeneration, who is immune to subdual damage get's and equal fast healing instead. Untrue. If a disintigrate spell brings a Frenzied Beserker to 0 HP, he is DEAD, gone, finished, nada, no more. Read the Deathless Frenzy description. He's GONE. Deathless Frenzy most certainly does NOT say you can still fight on.A looks like you are right. Well substitute the above, for example by swiming in lava for 30 seconds. In addition, what most people don't relize is that Deathless Frenzy doesn't stop you from knocking out with subdual damage. So even if our frenzied beserker was taken down to -23 HP with a Fireball, he'll be knocked out from one point of subdual damage. Seeing as he takes subdual damage every round during a frenzy... Yes, that is the greatest nonsense in D&D - you have bad rules, so you intentionally missinterpret in in a way, that makes it totally useless. Obviously your interpretation is wrong, since the FB "continues to fight normally, untill her rage ends" at negative HP. But by the rule you quote even 0 points of nonlethal damage would be enough to knock you out. So both rules can't be correct and in that case, the primary/concrete rule (Frenzied Berserker) overrules the secondary/general rule (Characters drop if the subdual damage reaches the current HP).
DragonChild_ 08-28-06, 05:07 PM	I don't know, if it's a general rule, but usually, somebody with regeneration, who is immune to subdual damage get's and equal fast healing instead. I'm pretty sure that's not a general rule - but you'll notice that when I mentioned that feat + undead, I specifically made a provision for that. Yes, that is the greatest nonsense in D&D - you have bad rules, so you intentionally missinterpret in in a way, that makes it totally useless. Obviously your interpretation is wrong, since the FB "continues to fight normally, untill her rage ends" at negative HP. But by the rule you quote even 0 points of nonlethal damage would be enough to knock you out. Incorrect about the 0 damage thing: When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless. Obviously, if you have no nonlethal damage, it can't exceed anything, even a negative number. It doesn't exist. However, yes, it DOES make the deathless frenzy totally worthless as written - so what? That's what the rule does. That's what it says. This isn't the first time there's been an ability that's totally and completely useless.
AkaKageWarrior 08-28-06, 05:12 PM	maybe an arcane caster (buffed) with some golems (to make sneak attack and turn undead useless) ? AND maybe the wizards invisible assassin brother? so many options! maybe a challenging setting? not underwater but in lava? AKW
Maraxus 08-28-06, 06:01 PM	When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless. Obviously, if you have no nonlethal damage, it can't exceed anything, even a negative number. It doesn't exist. However, yes, it DOES make the deathless frenzy totally worthless as written - so what? That's what the rule does. That's what it says. This isn't the first time there's been an ability that's totally and completely useless. 0 exceeds -1. Nowhere says it, that the points of nonlethal damage taken must be a positive number. Plus it sais "...can scorn death and unconciousness." ...but anyway, this thread is not about how badly designed the frenzied berserker is, but about good opponents for a secondary-fighter-heavy party. AkaKageWarrior: Don't think of it as a single challenge where suddenly the opponent stands in the next room (and nobody knows, what he is doing there), the party kicks in the door and everybody murders another. An caster is buffed by his 24-hour buffs (or at least 12 hours). Then it could be one task for the party to create the best setting possible to fight the enemy(-s). I think, an assasin would not be useful. If it's stealthy enough to sneak at the monk, the rogue and the ranger, then he is probably the ultimate killer ... But then again, with the right set of spells, it could get interesting, too. :)
__DnD4Life__ 08-28-06, 06:03 PM	Well, Actually, the cheese of a regen necropolitan has already been looked at. (by me - I had a little bit of a vengance run with a DM) Regen specifically says that creatures with no CON score cant have regen. So, it isnt as cheesy as you might think, unless you miss that rule. other than that, you would have a barb that could take on pun-pun. Just get fire immunity somehow.
Maraxus 08-28-06, 11:01 PM	Half Dragon. :) But Pun-Pun sais "You are dead", and then chooses a stupidly high number to be the save DC and you fail. Simply being immune to damage does not really save you from everything.
joseccb 08-28-06, 11:43 PM	A Marilith with 3 levels of Wizard :D , it only improves by CR 1.5 (according to IMproving Monsters rule)