Chameleon PrC Arcane Focus Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Chameleon PrC Arcane Focus Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zeroparadigm
12-22-05, 05:33 PM So according to the class description, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), the Chameleon Class can adopt an arcane focus and in doing do, gains the ability to prepare spells (from any arcane class) in the manner of a wizard.

Could a Chameleon then cast Bard or other spells that are defined as not neccesarily being recorded in a spellbook? I only ask because the class specifically mentions wizards and spellbooks, making spells like the bard's, for example, seem questionable.

Input, please, if you have any ideas!

Thank you!

Z
Tempest Stormwind
12-22-05, 06:16 PM So according to the class description, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), the Chameleon Class can adopt an arcane focus and in doing do, gains the ability to prepare spells (from any arcane class) in the manner of a wizard.

Could a Chameleon then cast Bard or other spells that are defined as not neccesarily being recorded in a spellbook? I only ask because the class specifically mentions wizards and spellbooks, making spells like the bard's, for example, seem questionable.

Input, please, if you have any ideas!

Thank you!

Z

Yes, but he would do it from a spellbook. ANY arcane spell from ANY list, merely recorded in his spellbook.

Note that several spells appear at a lower level on certain class' lists, and the Chameleon can use them at the most optimal level he can think of. This is particularily strong from the Divine focus (Divine Crusader list [ALL DOMAIN SPELLS!] and the Adept list (LOTS of good spells at lower levels than normal, including Heal), in particular), but it's present at the arcane focus as well.

I'm a bit annoyed at the lack of an as-printed psionic mode (say, Mind Focus) but it's not hard to extrapolate what it could be. Until you get to the number of powers known, which is the same problem as the bard, only without the resolution since there are no psionic spellbooks anywhere.
Ront Iron-Roar
12-22-05, 06:46 PM Its kinda unreasonable to be able to manifest psionics and then loose them.

I just kinda find the following abilities kinda rediculous without proper Prerequisites being met for them.

Barbarian Rage? How in the Nine Hells of Baator do they get that? Unless the dang person spent time with Barbarians learning to rage and or pulled a Drizzt being lost in the wild and all becoming feral and baser. Barbarian rage isn't getting angry if people try to say that!

Divine Focus? I'm not sure exactly how this work primarily. Unless they spend time communing with a god and such. I'd have to say a character needs faith to do this in addition, yes, even Druids have faith.

I love the Chameleon class, but, I think it needs some more prerequisites is all.
Tempest Stormwind
12-22-05, 07:05 PM Its kinda unreasonable to be able to manifest psionics and then loose them.

I just kinda find the following abilities kinda rediculous without proper Prerequisites being met for them.

Barbarian Rage? How in the Nine Hells of Baator do they get that? Unless the dang person spent time with Barbarians learning to rage and or pulled a Drizzt being lost in the wild and all becoming feral and baser. Barbarian rage isn't getting angry if people try to say that!

Divine Focus? I'm not sure exactly how this work primarily. Unless they spend time communing with a god and such. I'd have to say a character needs faith to do this in addition, yes, even Druids have faith.

I love the Chameleon class, but, I think it needs some more prerequisites is all.
So, the idea of suddenly gaining proficiency with martial weapons and then losing it is any less acceptable? It's in the rules already with Tenser's Transformation. Ditto for Ability Boon (a variety of effects). How about swapping feats? Or SPELLS? Psionics works exactly the same way as magic, in general. The whole thing with the Chameleon is adaptability; what if to adapt one needs a psionic approach?

The idea on the class features mimicry is similar to some aspects of a real-world perspective called Chaos Magic. I can't give a good introduction here, but essentially, you take what's useful, and use it, and if it ceases to be useful, you abandon it. Everything. Including beliefs. (In other words, if it were expedient for a chaos magician to be a catholic, he will, with every fiber of his being, believe Catholic beliefs, and ignore and forget essentially everything he did beforehand. If catholicism were no longer expedient, it too is abandoned, replaced with something else. I'm simply saying this; I don't want to derail the thread with critics one way or the other. Simply accept that there are some people who do this in the real world, and we'll focus on the Chameleon's ramnifications.)

In this case, a Chameleon wholeheartedly believes in something. He is a consumate actor, to the point of literally becoming whom he portrays (I'm VERY fond of changelings in this class with the Persona Immersion feat from Races of Eberron). If he portrays a barbarian, he is able to use the energy provided from Mimic Class Feature to throw himself into a full-out extraordinary barbarian rage.

For the divine focus, he doesn't need a god -- remember the idea of worshipping a cause? Yeah, that's not just clerics. I don't pretend to know what the source is, but it's probably general divine energy. Note that they can both turn AND rebuke undead. They DO have to spend time communing to prepare these spells, too -- and the time is fixed at sunrise.
Thubby
12-22-05, 07:40 PM the idea is not that they actualy have these abilities, but mimic them very, very well. though i must say psionics seems a bit of a stretch, how do you mimic someone elses brain??? maybe you could use a house rule like "you must have wild talent to take mind focus." that way your not bluffing it, but just pushing yourself very hard.
Tempest Stormwind
12-22-05, 07:55 PM the idea is not that they actualy have these abilities, but mimic them very, very well. though i must say psionics seems a bit of a stretch, how do you mimic someone elses brain??? maybe you could use a house rule like "you must have wild talent to take mind focus." that way your not bluffing it, but just pushing yourself very hard.
This would make sense if and only if psionics were stronger than arcane or divine magic. As a general rule, they aren't. If he can cast arcane spells with no innate talent and skipping the long studies, cast divine spells with no particular god attached, or suddenly gain Wild Empathy, there should be no problem giving him access to psionic powers when he wishes. Note that he wouldn't be able to benefit from psionic focus at all except to take 15 on concentration checks, unless he was psionic to begin with or uses his bonus feat on (one and only one) psionic feat. This alone is enough of a penalty to allow the powers, IMHO.

(Note that the increased manifester level doesn't have anywhere NEAR as much automatic impact as the increased caster level. Psions have to pay to take advantage of an increased manifester level in all regards except those summed up in the power statistics block (stuff like range and penetration checks). This is not the case with casters. Since no chameleon is going to be oozing in power points without a very concentrated build -- say, psychic rogue 2 / hexblade 3 / Chameleon 10 / War Mind 5 with a very high Wis and Int -- this shouldn't be a problem.)

But, this thread isn't about the psionic chameleon. I'll start a new one on the Psi boards for that.
sooperspook
12-22-05, 07:59 PM How is mimicing mental powers any different to mimicing arcane casting abilities?

The source of the chameleons power is described in the intro to the class. He learns to channel his own personal power into the effects he wants. If he wants to be a mage , he channels his power into arcane magic (and alters his mind so he can understand arcane spells).

As Tempest said; It works pretty much like Tensers Transformation (or Mental Pinnacle for psionic abilities, or Nightstalkers Transformation for rogue abilities). The difference is that a Chameleon uses his internal power to create these effects. Essentially its a class specialising in these types of transfomational spells/magic.
General_Ridley
12-22-05, 08:21 PM I was pretty sure the idea of the Chameleon was that:

Everyone is capable of everything, but they have not learned how to use that potential to do all of those things. You can fight if you put your mind to it. You can cast spells if you put your mind to it. You can be a thief if you put your mind to it. Everything is possible, just not all at once.
Tempest Stormwind
12-22-05, 09:21 PM I was pretty sure the idea of the Chameleon was that:

Everyone is capable of everything, but they have not learned how to use that potential to do all of those things. You can fight if you put your mind to it. You can cast spells if you put your mind to it. You can be a thief if you put your mind to it. Everything is possible, just not all at once.
And thus, psionics is also possible. Or rather, should be. Hence the need for a variant.

My preliminary thread is up, and ready for comments. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=557439) Please do not post unless you are already familiar with the psionic rules, as basic knowledge of the rules is assumed in that thread. (Though if you are not, read the New DM/Player's Guide to Psionics link in my sig. That's nearly all the information you'd need right there.)
zeroparadigm
12-23-05, 08:40 AM See, this is the same response I got on the Magic & spells board as well.

Then I got this Reqponse from Wizards CustServ:

Z,

Arcane focus does not allow the use of bard spells or any other spells that are not found in spellbooks

Good Gaming!

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Um, I think that sucks, but does anyone have any official rulings contrary to that?

I mean, memorizing as an Adept (divine) still pretty much rocks, but Bards do have some spells that no one else gets (Modify Memory).
Shedeo
12-23-05, 11:30 AM Well, Assassins get Modify Memory, but that's because they're special.

As for the CustServ,...

I think the "official ruling" comes from this quote, in the RoD book.

"You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class."

Its that simple. Bard, Assassin, Wizard, Hexblade, Wu Jen, whoever. You're a Chameleon, and that's how it should be. *nods*
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-05, 12:09 PM CustServ quite often says things that are directly contradicted by the rules, and if you ask them five times you'll get at least three different answers. This comes up quite frequently on the CO boards where we often push the boundaries of the game to the point where we need a ruling -- for instance, on how Quintessence works with respect to the timeline, say: if you preserve a psicrown of Temporal Regression in a barrel of the stuff and then use the regression to go back in time one round, will the crown still be in the barrel, and if so, will it still be fully charged?

The chameleon cleary says "ANY" class. This includes bard. All he'd need is a scroll of a bard spell to record in a spellbook -- which can be done according to PHB arcane magical writings rules. There's even an easier way: Take Extra Spell as your rotating bonus feat to learn a bard spell, and then scribe it yourself in your book. How, exactly, is this against the rules?

And, for the record, it also includes prestige classes. It includes classes like the Divine Champion -- which essentially opens up all the domain spells for the Divine Focus to choose. It includes the Hexblade, with Tasha's Hideous Laughter as a 1st level spell. And so on.

For more information, this is your best bet (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082).
Shedeo
12-23-05, 12:13 PM Yup, I think Tempest and I pretty much cleared that up. *nods*
zeroparadigm
12-23-05, 02:58 PM Hmm...crud.

I looked in the PHB, but couldn't find any source material to specifcally support that you could copy a scroll of a bard spell to be used in this manner - I mean, there's plenty of stuff in magic section, but nothing that I could use in the terms discussed below.

I agree with the consensus, but it's not my opinion that metters:
The resdent GM is far more concerned about the following:

"You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook "
as opposed to
"You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class."

So that's what I've got. Anyone want to try again with CustServ?

Anyone?

- Z
General_Ridley
12-23-05, 03:37 PM that just means that you do your spell preparation in the way a Wizard does. The whole sleep, memorization to fill slots, etc.

And the spells you have available to prepare can come from any arcane list, so long as you copied it into your spellbook.

A wizard could copy a bard-only spell into his spellbook from a scroll, it would just be useless to him as it is not a wizard spell.

A chameleon could do the same, but he gains the ability to use the spell by virtue of it being arcane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zeroparadigm 12-22-05, 05:33 PM	So according to the class description, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), the Chameleon Class can adopt an arcane focus and in doing do, gains the ability to prepare spells (from any arcane class) in the manner of a wizard. Could a Chameleon then cast Bard or other spells that are defined as not neccesarily being recorded in a spellbook? I only ask because the class specifically mentions wizards and spellbooks, making spells like the bard's, for example, seem questionable. Input, please, if you have any ideas! Thank you! Z
Tempest Stormwind 12-22-05, 06:16 PM	So according to the class description, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), the Chameleon Class can adopt an arcane focus and in doing do, gains the ability to prepare spells (from any arcane class) in the manner of a wizard. Could a Chameleon then cast Bard or other spells that are defined as not neccesarily being recorded in a spellbook? I only ask because the class specifically mentions wizards and spellbooks, making spells like the bard's, for example, seem questionable. Input, please, if you have any ideas! Thank you! Z Yes, but he would do it from a spellbook. ANY arcane spell from ANY list, merely recorded in his spellbook. Note that several spells appear at a lower level on certain class' lists, and the Chameleon can use them at the most optimal level he can think of. This is particularily strong from the Divine focus (Divine Crusader list [ALL DOMAIN SPELLS!] and the Adept list (LOTS of good spells at lower levels than normal, including Heal), in particular), but it's present at the arcane focus as well. I'm a bit annoyed at the lack of an as-printed psionic mode (say, Mind Focus) but it's not hard to extrapolate what it could be. Until you get to the number of powers known, which is the same problem as the bard, only without the resolution since there are no psionic spellbooks anywhere.
Ront Iron-Roar 12-22-05, 06:46 PM	Its kinda unreasonable to be able to manifest psionics and then loose them. I just kinda find the following abilities kinda rediculous without proper Prerequisites being met for them. Barbarian Rage? How in the Nine Hells of Baator do they get that? Unless the dang person spent time with Barbarians learning to rage and or pulled a Drizzt being lost in the wild and all becoming feral and baser. Barbarian rage isn't getting angry if people try to say that! Divine Focus? I'm not sure exactly how this work primarily. Unless they spend time communing with a god and such. I'd have to say a character needs faith to do this in addition, yes, even Druids have faith. I love the Chameleon class, but, I think it needs some more prerequisites is all.
Tempest Stormwind 12-22-05, 07:05 PM	Its kinda unreasonable to be able to manifest psionics and then loose them. I just kinda find the following abilities kinda rediculous without proper Prerequisites being met for them. Barbarian Rage? How in the Nine Hells of Baator do they get that? Unless the dang person spent time with Barbarians learning to rage and or pulled a Drizzt being lost in the wild and all becoming feral and baser. Barbarian rage isn't getting angry if people try to say that! Divine Focus? I'm not sure exactly how this work primarily. Unless they spend time communing with a god and such. I'd have to say a character needs faith to do this in addition, yes, even Druids have faith. I love the Chameleon class, but, I think it needs some more prerequisites is all. So, the idea of suddenly gaining proficiency with martial weapons and then losing it is any less acceptable? It's in the rules already with Tenser's Transformation. Ditto for Ability Boon (a variety of effects). How about swapping feats? Or SPELLS? Psionics works exactly the same way as magic, in general. The whole thing with the Chameleon is adaptability; what if to adapt one needs a psionic approach? The idea on the class features mimicry is similar to some aspects of a real-world perspective called Chaos Magic. I can't give a good introduction here, but essentially, you take what's useful, and use it, and if it ceases to be useful, you abandon it. Everything. Including beliefs. (In other words, if it were expedient for a chaos magician to be a catholic, he will, with every fiber of his being, believe Catholic beliefs, and ignore and forget essentially everything he did beforehand. If catholicism were no longer expedient, it too is abandoned, replaced with something else. I'm simply saying this; I don't want to derail the thread with critics one way or the other. Simply accept that there are some people who do this in the real world, and we'll focus on the Chameleon's ramnifications.) In this case, a Chameleon wholeheartedly believes in something. He is a consumate actor, to the point of literally becoming whom he portrays (I'm VERY fond of changelings in this class with the Persona Immersion feat from Races of Eberron). If he portrays a barbarian, he is able to use the energy provided from Mimic Class Feature to throw himself into a full-out extraordinary barbarian rage. For the divine focus, he doesn't need a god -- remember the idea of worshipping a cause? Yeah, that's not just clerics. I don't pretend to know what the source is, but it's probably general divine energy. Note that they can both turn AND rebuke undead. They DO have to spend time communing to prepare these spells, too -- and the time is fixed at sunrise.
Thubby 12-22-05, 07:40 PM	the idea is not that they actualy have these abilities, but mimic them very, very well. though i must say psionics seems a bit of a stretch, how do you mimic someone elses brain??? maybe you could use a house rule like "you must have wild talent to take mind focus." that way your not bluffing it, but just pushing yourself very hard.
Tempest Stormwind 12-22-05, 07:55 PM	the idea is not that they actualy have these abilities, but mimic them very, very well. though i must say psionics seems a bit of a stretch, how do you mimic someone elses brain??? maybe you could use a house rule like "you must have wild talent to take mind focus." that way your not bluffing it, but just pushing yourself very hard. This would make sense if and only if psionics were stronger than arcane or divine magic. As a general rule, they aren't. If he can cast arcane spells with no innate talent and skipping the long studies, cast divine spells with no particular god attached, or suddenly gain Wild Empathy, there should be no problem giving him access to psionic powers when he wishes. Note that he wouldn't be able to benefit from psionic focus at all except to take 15 on concentration checks, unless he was psionic to begin with or uses his bonus feat on (one and only one) psionic feat. This alone is enough of a penalty to allow the powers, IMHO. (Note that the increased manifester level doesn't have anywhere NEAR as much automatic impact as the increased caster level. Psions have to pay to take advantage of an increased manifester level in all regards except those summed up in the power statistics block (stuff like range and penetration checks). This is not the case with casters. Since no chameleon is going to be oozing in power points without a very concentrated build -- say, psychic rogue 2 / hexblade 3 / Chameleon 10 / War Mind 5 with a very high Wis and Int -- this shouldn't be a problem.) But, this thread isn't about the psionic chameleon. I'll start a new one on the Psi boards for that.
sooperspook 12-22-05, 07:59 PM	How is mimicing mental powers any different to mimicing arcane casting abilities? The source of the chameleons power is described in the intro to the class. He learns to channel his own personal power into the effects he wants. If he wants to be a mage , he channels his power into arcane magic (and alters his mind so he can understand arcane spells). As Tempest said; It works pretty much like Tensers Transformation (or Mental Pinnacle for psionic abilities, or Nightstalkers Transformation for rogue abilities). The difference is that a Chameleon uses his internal power to create these effects. Essentially its a class specialising in these types of transfomational spells/magic.
General_Ridley 12-22-05, 08:21 PM	I was pretty sure the idea of the Chameleon was that: Everyone is capable of everything, but they have not learned how to use that potential to do all of those things. You can fight if you put your mind to it. You can cast spells if you put your mind to it. You can be a thief if you put your mind to it. Everything is possible, just not all at once.
Tempest Stormwind 12-22-05, 09:21 PM	I was pretty sure the idea of the Chameleon was that: Everyone is capable of everything, but they have not learned how to use that potential to do all of those things. You can fight if you put your mind to it. You can cast spells if you put your mind to it. You can be a thief if you put your mind to it. Everything is possible, just not all at once. And thus, psionics is also possible. Or rather, should be. Hence the need for a variant. My preliminary thread is up, and ready for comments. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=557439) Please do not post unless you are already familiar with the psionic rules, as basic knowledge of the rules is assumed in that thread. (Though if you are not, read the New DM/Player's Guide to Psionics link in my sig. That's nearly all the information you'd need right there.)
zeroparadigm 12-23-05, 08:40 AM	See, this is the same response I got on the Magic & spells board as well. Then I got this Reqponse from Wizards CustServ: Z, Arcane focus does not allow the use of bard spells or any other spells that are not found in spellbooks Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam S. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST Um, I think that sucks, but does anyone have any official rulings contrary to that? I mean, memorizing as an Adept (divine) still pretty much rocks, but Bards do have some spells that no one else gets (Modify Memory).
Shedeo 12-23-05, 11:30 AM	Well, Assassins get Modify Memory, but that's because they're special. As for the CustServ,... I think the "official ruling" comes from this quote, in the RoD book. "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class." Its that simple. Bard, Assassin, Wizard, Hexblade, Wu Jen, whoever. You're a Chameleon, and that's how it should be. nods
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-05, 12:09 PM	CustServ quite often says things that are directly contradicted by the rules, and if you ask them five times you'll get at least three different answers. This comes up quite frequently on the CO boards where we often push the boundaries of the game to the point where we need a ruling -- for instance, on how Quintessence works with respect to the timeline, say: if you preserve a psicrown of Temporal Regression in a barrel of the stuff and then use the regression to go back in time one round, will the crown still be in the barrel, and if so, will it still be fully charged? The chameleon cleary says "ANY" class. This includes bard. All he'd need is a scroll of a bard spell to record in a spellbook -- which can be done according to PHB arcane magical writings rules. There's even an easier way: Take Extra Spell as your rotating bonus feat to learn a bard spell, and then scribe it yourself in your book. How, exactly, is this against the rules? And, for the record, it also includes prestige classes. It includes classes like the Divine Champion -- which essentially opens up all the domain spells for the Divine Focus to choose. It includes the Hexblade, with Tasha's Hideous Laughter as a 1st level spell. And so on. For more information, this is your best bet (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082).
Shedeo 12-23-05, 12:13 PM	Yup, I think Tempest and I pretty much cleared that up. nods
zeroparadigm 12-23-05, 02:58 PM	Hmm...crud. I looked in the PHB, but couldn't find any source material to specifcally support that you could copy a scroll of a bard spell to be used in this manner - I mean, there's plenty of stuff in magic section, but nothing that I could use in the terms discussed below. I agree with the consensus, but it's not my opinion that metters: The resdent GM is far more concerned about the following: "You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook " as opposed to "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class." So that's what I've got. Anyone want to try again with CustServ? Anyone? - Z
General_Ridley 12-23-05, 03:37 PM	that just means that you do your spell preparation in the way a Wizard does. The whole sleep, memorization to fill slots, etc. And the spells you have available to prepare can come from any arcane list, so long as you copied it into your spellbook. A wizard could copy a bard-only spell into his spellbook from a scroll, it would just be useless to him as it is not a wizard spell. A chameleon could do the same, but he gains the ability to use the spell by virtue of it being arcane.