Chameleon (Races of Destiny) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Chameleon (Races of Destiny) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
caeruleus
05-20-06, 03:53 PM Has anyone played the chameleon PrC from Races of Destiny? The one thing I'm wondering about is the fact that they need a spellbook to prepare arcane spells when they use arcane focus. How hard/easy is it to get a decent spellbook for this purpose? My understanding is that they can't scribe their own spells into spellbooks. If you've found that this is a problem, how have you dealt with it?
aelryinth
05-20-06, 03:58 PM They can scribe spells into spellbooks that they themselves can use.

Some other arcane caster using them would find them utter nonsense without Arcane Focus from the class.

Likewise, if you use the 'floating feat' from the class to take Extra Spell and fill up your spellbook, every time you change the spell you find the old spell is now utter doodles and makes no sense.

Spells gained from Chameleon are thus not treated as true spellcasting.

===Aelryinth
caeruleus
05-20-06, 04:15 PM They can scribe spells into spellbooks that they themselves can use.

Really? I suppose they need to be using arcane focus while doing so, correct?

Spells gained from Chameleon are thus not treated as true spellcasting.

How do you mean?
Vaelan
05-20-06, 06:42 PM I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless.

Arcane Focus is rather disappointing as you have to keep your own spellbook. Races of Destiny explicitly states that Chameleons use the rules on page 178 of the PHB in regards to preparing spells. The following is from the aforementioned page...

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook...

This rule makes it impossible to memorize any spell that you have not already recorded into your own spellbook, even if you borrow the party Wizard's spellbook. The best you can do is copy some of their spells into your book which you may then prepare normally.

I don't recommend trying to make a complete set of spellbooks as a Chameleon. It is a substantial drain on your wealth and a few extremely useful spells for each role you plan to fill will generally suffice.
Rulebook
05-20-06, 08:30 PM you'll only need about a dozen or so spells as a chameleon anyway.
travellersside
05-20-06, 08:42 PM On the contrary, since Chameleon's are all about imitating anyone and everyone, limiting yourself to only a handful of spells is a really bad idea. You need a large number of versatile spells to get by, otherwise all your wizards are the same.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section from Magic of Faerun has been updated/replaced/made obsolete? I don't pay much attention to FR, so I wouldn't have noticed, but the entire section was about finding a spellbok and learning to use it as well as your own. Assuming that it's still valid, this would be pretty handy for a chameleon, not to mention any other wizard.
Mystyc
05-20-06, 08:54 PM This isn't exactly relevant to the question, but I must make one suggestion. A chameleon's caster level is equal to double his class level, but it is not a bad idea to add "to a maximum of his/her character level" to that. It's not a big thing, and if you aren't doing a really high-level campaign, it doesn't really matter, but a "20th-level caster" at level 15 is... bothersome. At least, it was to my group.
caeruleus
05-20-06, 09:42 PM I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless.

[snip]

The best you can do is copy some of their spells into your book which you may then prepare normally.

Wait. When you said aelryinth was only referring to a houserule, I thought you meant the fact that chameleons can scribe spells into a book. But then you say they can do this. If they can, then my problem is solved. So can they scribe spells into a spellbook? Any why or why not?
travellersside
05-21-06, 11:57 AM Ah, well. Answered my own question.

The Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section has been included in Complete Arcane, specifically, page 140.

Quick summary: It takes 1 week plus 1 day per spell in the book. Make a spellcraft roll, DC 25+ highest level spell in book. If you spend the time and make the roll, you treat the book as if you'd written it yourself. Nice.

As far as using spellbooks goes, the chameleon "...prepare(s) and casts these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details)."

So, firstly, you can keep your own spellbook, just like a wizard does; secondly, you can use 'found' spellbooks, again, just like a wizard does; and thirdly, you can learn to use a spellbook owned by a wizard in the party, basically borrowing it to prepare spells, presumably while the wizard is resting.

In short, as long as you've got a good Spellcraft, you're fine.
Reseru
05-21-06, 05:27 PM Does anyone know of a Chameleon variant with mechanics from other classes? Like a Chameleon with Eldritch Blasts per day or psionic power points or something of the like? :confused:
Yak of Darkness
05-21-06, 06:34 PM Does anyone know of a Chameleon variant with mechanics from other classes? Like a Chameleon with Eldritch Blasts per day or psionic power points or something of the like? :confused:Would you need a variant chameleon with things like that? Seems it would better fit the idea behind the chameleon to add abilities/foci to match whatever is common in your game world.

In a high psionic game, it makes sense for the chameleon to have a Mental Focus ability (not Psionic Focus, since that name's already taken). In a game with lots of Incarnum, you might want a Soul Focus or Chakra Focus. They wouldn't need to be variant classes, just additional abilities for the same class.

That said, I don't have any sample stuff like that. I'm with you, though, on wanting to see any extra chameleon foci, if anyone on the boards has made them.
Talen Lee
05-21-06, 06:42 PM In the upcoming game I'm playing, the GM has said I'm going to gain my Foci based on the party I'm with - and she's mentioned Incarnum and Psionics as other possible Foci. It struck me as really cool. I'll see if she's got anything written up.
Vaelan
05-21-06, 07:14 PM Wait. When you said aelryinth was only referring to a houserule, I thought you meant the fact that chameleons can scribe spells into a book. But then you say they can do this. If they can, then my problem is solved. So can they scribe spells into a spellbook? Any why or why not?
I was referring to everything else Aelryinth said. Sorry about that.

On the contrary, since Chameleon's are all about imitating anyone and everyone, limiting yourself to only a handful of spells is a really bad idea.
Thematically, I agree. Practically, however, I disagree. Expansive spellbooks aren't cheap, and a Chameleon already tends to need more wealth than normal to augment all of their roles.

The Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section has been included in Complete Arcane, specifically, page 140.
This would be a much better option for a Chameleon.

In the upcoming game I'm playing, the GM has said I'm going to gain my Foci based on the party I'm with - and she's mentioned Incarnum and Psionics as other possible Foci.
It makes sense that they'd be able to emulate psionics and incarnum, but it doesn't make sense to me that you'd learn them based upon the party you're with. An organization dedicated to learning how to do everything should be able to teach you how to do everything.
Talen Lee
05-21-06, 07:59 PM And it doesn't make sense to me that an organisation that teaches you to do everything involves forgetting what you already knew to do it. So we have all our little bits of silliness.
Eyeless Blond
05-21-06, 08:30 PM I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless.[...]I was referring to everything else Aelryinth said. Sorry about that.

Uh-huh. Not to jump to anyone else's defense or anything, but in my years of frequenting these boards I've heard quite a bit of good, reasonable advice from aelryinth. On the flip side I've heard next to nothing from you. So until I can find some actual examples of what you describe I think I'll trust the person with twice the senority.

And it doesn't make sense to me that an organisation that teaches you to do everything involves forgetting what you already knew to do it. So we have all our little bits of silliness.
It doesn't teach you to do everything, though. It teaches you to low-level format your brain, such that you basically trick yourself into posessing abilities you never had. In computer science terms it'd be like loading your brain with an ability emulator, and then loading differend modules onto that emulator, rather than actually learning the seperate abilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
caeruleus 05-20-06, 03:53 PM	Has anyone played the chameleon PrC from Races of Destiny? The one thing I'm wondering about is the fact that they need a spellbook to prepare arcane spells when they use arcane focus. How hard/easy is it to get a decent spellbook for this purpose? My understanding is that they can't scribe their own spells into spellbooks. If you've found that this is a problem, how have you dealt with it?
aelryinth 05-20-06, 03:58 PM	They can scribe spells into spellbooks that they themselves can use. Some other arcane caster using them would find them utter nonsense without Arcane Focus from the class. Likewise, if you use the 'floating feat' from the class to take Extra Spell and fill up your spellbook, every time you change the spell you find the old spell is now utter doodles and makes no sense. Spells gained from Chameleon are thus not treated as true spellcasting. ===Aelryinth
caeruleus 05-20-06, 04:15 PM	They can scribe spells into spellbooks that they themselves can use. Really? I suppose they need to be using arcane focus while doing so, correct? Spells gained from Chameleon are thus not treated as true spellcasting. How do you mean?
Vaelan 05-20-06, 06:42 PM	I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless. Arcane Focus is rather disappointing as you have to keep your own spellbook. Races of Destiny explicitly states that Chameleons use the rules on page 178 of the PHB in regards to preparing spells. The following is from the aforementioned page... A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook... This rule makes it impossible to memorize any spell that you have not already recorded into your own spellbook, even if you borrow the party Wizard's spellbook. The best you can do is copy some of their spells into your book which you may then prepare normally. I don't recommend trying to make a complete set of spellbooks as a Chameleon. It is a substantial drain on your wealth and a few extremely useful spells for each role you plan to fill will generally suffice.
Rulebook 05-20-06, 08:30 PM	you'll only need about a dozen or so spells as a chameleon anyway.
travellersside 05-20-06, 08:42 PM	On the contrary, since Chameleon's are all about imitating anyone and everyone, limiting yourself to only a handful of spells is a really bad idea. You need a large number of versatile spells to get by, otherwise all your wizards are the same. Out of interest, does anyone know if the Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section from Magic of Faerun has been updated/replaced/made obsolete? I don't pay much attention to FR, so I wouldn't have noticed, but the entire section was about finding a spellbok and learning to use it as well as your own. Assuming that it's still valid, this would be pretty handy for a chameleon, not to mention any other wizard.
Mystyc 05-20-06, 08:54 PM	This isn't exactly relevant to the question, but I must make one suggestion. A chameleon's caster level is equal to double his class level, but it is not a bad idea to add "to a maximum of his/her character level" to that. It's not a big thing, and if you aren't doing a really high-level campaign, it doesn't really matter, but a "20th-level caster" at level 15 is... bothersome. At least, it was to my group.
caeruleus 05-20-06, 09:42 PM	I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless. [snip] The best you can do is copy some of their spells into your book which you may then prepare normally. Wait. When you said aelryinth was only referring to a houserule, I thought you meant the fact that chameleons can scribe spells into a book. But then you say they can do this. If they can, then my problem is solved. So can they scribe spells into a spellbook? Any why or why not?
travellersside 05-21-06, 11:57 AM	Ah, well. Answered my own question. The Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section has been included in Complete Arcane, specifically, page 140. Quick summary: It takes 1 week plus 1 day per spell in the book. Make a spellcraft roll, DC 25+ highest level spell in book. If you spend the time and make the roll, you treat the book as if you'd written it yourself. Nice. As far as using spellbooks goes, the chameleon "...prepare(s) and casts these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details)." So, firstly, you can keep your own spellbook, just like a wizard does; secondly, you can use 'found' spellbooks, again, just like a wizard does; and thirdly, you can learn to use a spellbook owned by a wizard in the party, basically borrowing it to prepare spells, presumably while the wizard is resting. In short, as long as you've got a good Spellcraft, you're fine.
Reseru 05-21-06, 05:27 PM	Does anyone know of a Chameleon variant with mechanics from other classes? Like a Chameleon with Eldritch Blasts per day or psionic power points or something of the like? :confused:
Yak of Darkness 05-21-06, 06:34 PM	Does anyone know of a Chameleon variant with mechanics from other classes? Like a Chameleon with Eldritch Blasts per day or psionic power points or something of the like? :confused:Would you need a variant chameleon with things like that? Seems it would better fit the idea behind the chameleon to add abilities/foci to match whatever is common in your game world. In a high psionic game, it makes sense for the chameleon to have a Mental Focus ability (not Psionic Focus, since that name's already taken). In a game with lots of Incarnum, you might want a Soul Focus or Chakra Focus. They wouldn't need to be variant classes, just additional abilities for the same class. That said, I don't have any sample stuff like that. I'm with you, though, on wanting to see any extra chameleon foci, if anyone on the boards has made them.
Talen Lee 05-21-06, 06:42 PM	In the upcoming game I'm playing, the GM has said I'm going to gain my Foci based on the party I'm with - and she's mentioned Incarnum and Psionics as other possible Foci. It struck me as really cool. I'll see if she's got anything written up.
Vaelan 05-21-06, 07:14 PM	Wait. When you said aelryinth was only referring to a houserule, I thought you meant the fact that chameleons can scribe spells into a book. But then you say they can do this. If they can, then my problem is solved. So can they scribe spells into a spellbook? Any why or why not? I was referring to everything else Aelryinth said. Sorry about that. On the contrary, since Chameleon's are all about imitating anyone and everyone, limiting yourself to only a handful of spells is a really bad idea. Thematically, I agree. Practically, however, I disagree. Expansive spellbooks aren't cheap, and a Chameleon already tends to need more wealth than normal to augment all of their roles. The Mastering a Foreign Spellbook section has been included in Complete Arcane, specifically, page 140. This would be a much better option for a Chameleon. In the upcoming game I'm playing, the GM has said I'm going to gain my Foci based on the party I'm with - and she's mentioned Incarnum and Psionics as other possible Foci. It makes sense that they'd be able to emulate psionics and incarnum, but it doesn't make sense to me that you'd learn them based upon the party you're with. An organization dedicated to learning how to do everything should be able to teach you how to do everything.
Talen Lee 05-21-06, 07:59 PM	And it doesn't make sense to me that an organisation that teaches you to do everything involves forgetting what you already knew to do it. So we have all our little bits of silliness.
Eyeless Blond 05-21-06, 08:30 PM	I would recommend ignoring aelryinth. Some people on these boards have problems with providing accurate and useful information. Since aelryinth's houserules probably aren't at all relevant to your question or your game, the information is largely useless.[...]I was referring to everything else Aelryinth said. Sorry about that. Uh-huh. Not to jump to anyone else's defense or anything, but in my years of frequenting these boards I've heard quite a bit of good, reasonable advice from aelryinth. On the flip side I've heard next to nothing from you. So until I can find some actual examples of what you describe I think I'll trust the person with twice the senority. And it doesn't make sense to me that an organisation that teaches you to do everything involves forgetting what you already knew to do it. So we have all our little bits of silliness. It doesn't teach you to do everything, though. It teaches you to low-level format your brain, such that you basically trick yourself into posessing abilities you never had. In computer science terms it'd be like loading your brain with an ability emulator, and then loading differend modules onto that emulator, rather than actually learning the seperate abilities.