Champion of Corellon Larethian balance? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Champion of Corellon Larethian balance? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jay
05-06-05, 12:03 PM Does anyone have any experiences with that PrC from Races of the Wild?

Flavour-wise, I just love it.

But it seems like it might be a bit too good, but perhaps I'm misjudging
only because it seems so good to *me*...

It's way better than the fighter, which is the most obvious comparison,
but then, most things are at higher levels.

But the champion gets a bunch of really neat abilities which could each
almost hold a PrC on their own... and this class gets them all. Dex to
damage? Check. Getting full benefits from 22 Dex in a mithral full
plate? Check. Moving 30 ft. in a mithral full plate? Check. Bonus feats?
Check.

I really can't honestly say I'd be ready to allow a champion IMC, which
is a shame, since I'd love to play the class, and don't feel comfortable
asking other DMs for stuff I wouldn't allow.

Does anyone think I'm overestimating the champion? Does anyone who
thinks I'm not have any good advice on how to fix it?
DarknessEternal
05-06-05, 12:09 PM The balance comes from, among many other things, their needing multiple high abilities that most warriors can ignore. In their case, Dex and Cha. You might be saying all warriors need Dex, but you'd be wrong. CoC don't get to spend bonus feats on TWF so the only reason other fighters need Dex isn't available to them without huge sacrifices.

Cha needs no explanation.

Their bonus feats don't even come from the list of feats most commonly chosen by warriors.
Dire Celestial Bonobo
05-06-05, 02:19 PM But it seems like it might be a bit too good, but perhaps I'm misjudging only because it seems so good to *me*...

I had a similar reaction.

As compared to a Dex-based Fighter of the same level, the PrC has these benefits:

1) +3 AC (Superior Defense)
2) +8 damage (Elegant Strike)
3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath)
4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement)
5) +4 Will save
6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing)

By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits:

1) +2 bonus feats
2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization

Even if you consider half of the prereq feats to be wasted, the PrC is still (IMHO) too good.

To fix it, I would recommend going through the list of benefits and saying "why do they get this?" with a critical eye. In particular, I would recommend three main changes:

1) Drop the high Will save.
- Nothing in the flavour text supports this; it seems tacked on just because it's useful.

2) Give Dex to damage instead of Strength.
- This is still plenty powerful---the character can almost completely dispense with boosting Str, giving it massive benefits from its racially-boosted Dex. This still might be too good---it lets the character be a heavy-armour tank without most of the drawbacks of heavy-armour tanks.

3) Make Corellon's Wrath a 3/day Smite Evil ability.
- There's no reason why Corellon's Wrath shouldn't be handled as a Smite ability like every other class in existance does; the flavour text talks about "evil warriors", so make it a 3/day Smite Evil ability that stacks with a Paladin's ability of the same name.

IMHO, the class is probably still too good, thanks to all the Dex-related benefits it gets, but this version might be reasonable.
Nuntius128
05-06-05, 03:19 PM Whoa, they add Str and Dex for damage? I never noticed that. Crazy.
jay
05-06-05, 04:26 PM Their bonus feats don't even come from the list of feats most commonly chosen by warriors.
Eh? They don't get the Power Attack Chain, but they get the two other largest chains, those starting with Dodge and Combat Expertise.
jay
05-06-05, 04:33 PM As compared to a Dex-based Fighter of the same level, the PrC has these benefits:

1) +3 AC (Superior Defense)
2) +8 damage (Elegant Strike)
3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath)
4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement)
5) +4 Will save
6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing)

By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits:

1) +2 bonus feats
2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization
To play the devil's advocate: is that a problem with the champion or the Dex-based fighter, a generally crappy option in D&D?

I think a Str-based fighter would compare more favourably: he'll save one feat the champion will spend on Weapon Finesse and equal Str will give him more damage that the champion gets from Dex (probably ending about even when you count in champion's Str too).

I'm not sure that it's a problem that the champion blows a Dex-fighter out of the water. An eldritch knight blows a Ftr/Wiz out of the water too. That's mostly the point. Granted, it still might be too good, but I don't think it needs to be balanced with a Dex-fighter, it needs to be balanced with a well-built fighter, and a Dex-fighter in D&D isn't it (which is why I like the champion so much).
Dire Celestial Bonobo
05-06-05, 04:59 PM To play the devil's advocate: is that a problem with the champion or the Dex-based fighter, a generally crappy option in D&D?

Whole threads have argued that Dex-based Fighters in D&D are not, in fact, crappy. However, you're probably right that comparing CoCLs to a Str-based Fighter is a better choice; in particular, I'll compare to a Half-Orc, since that cancels out the +2 racial stat bonus. In that case, the comparisons are:

1) +3 AC (Superior Defense)
2) +4 damage (Elegant Strike)
3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath)
4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement)
5) +4 Will save
6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing)
7) +6 Reflex save

By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits:

1) +3 bonus feats
2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization
3) More likely to succeed on an offensive Trip or Bull Rush (if he can even take Improved Trip).

i.e., the benefits are almost the same.

In particular, the CoCL still has a significant damage bonus---since he and the Fighter both add their racial-bonus stat to attack and damage, those cancel out...but the CoCL can also add his Str bonus (+1 base, +3 more from cheap-at-high-level item), lifting his damage significantly above what the Str-based Fighter gets.

The PrC is still way too good.
Dunelord
05-06-05, 06:54 PM Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Champion of Corellon Larethian take 3 levels in Swashbuckler then add intellgence, dexterity, and stregnth to damage when he uses a rapier?

Also I would like to suggest we use CoCL to represent the class since CoC is the term often used for the boards Code of Conduct.
Wyrd Bearer
05-06-05, 07:13 PM Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Champion of Corellon Larethian take 3 levels in Swashbuckler then add intellgence, dexterity, and stregnth to damage when he uses a rapier?

Also I would like to suggest we use CoCL to represent the class since CoC is the term often used for the boards Code of Conduct.

Dang it, that's just sick! Well, at least its balanced by slowly making your character more and more MAD.
NinjaPenguin
05-06-05, 07:28 PM I've never had a problem with being dependent on multiple abilities, but thats because i will never play in a point-buy game. I like rolling dice too much ;)

So... Let me see now. If a Swashbuckler/Fighter/CoCL was, say... a Grey Elf... with a Rapier of Graceful Strike (Arms and Equipment)... Lets assume a base 18 in Dex and 16 in Int for simplicity, then up to 20th level...

Dex 30 (including +6 Gloves), Int 22 (including +6 Headband)

Graceful Strike replaces your Str with your Dex for base damage
CoCL adds your Dex bonus to the base dammage on top of Str(now Dex due to item)
Swash adds Int to damage...

Rapier deals... 1d6+10+10+6 = 1d6+26 base damage without taking the fact its a magic weapon into account. Atticking 5 times a round (you have Haste boots, i'm sure) assuming you hit all those times is 5d6+130 damage before magic adjustments

Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... I like it :) And isn't there a feat that lets you treat a One-handed weapon in your odd-hand like a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting? Double-weild +5 keen Graceful Strike rapiers :D 10 attacks per round for 10d6+310 damage every round, with a 15-20 crit rance on each of the attacks. And who says melee cant keep up with magic? ;)
Vaelan
05-06-05, 09:22 PM Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... I like it And isn't there a feat that lets you treat a One-handed weapon in your odd-hand like a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting? Double-weild +5 keen Graceful Strike rapiers 10 attacks per round for 10d6+310 damage every round, with a 15-20 crit rance on each of the attacks. And who says melee cant keep up with magic?

Too bad there is no way to get 10 attacks per round with melee weapons. Also, the Sword of Graceful Strikes is a shortsword, which does not work with the CoCL's class ability.

How many full attacks are you going to be getting at any inteliigent opponent? Not many, especially if you do a lot of damage with a full attack. Also, most nonintelligent opponents (the ones you'd get to full-attack) are immune to criticals, which means you lose all of your bonuses to damage as they are precision-based. Further, the chances of many of your later attacks hitting is extremely small.

Who says melee can't keep up with magic? I do.

Even if this little scenario of yours wasn't taking a large number of variables for granted, which it is, you would need to be pretty close to level 20 to do this as well as you have outlined.

At level 17th level or higher, preferably 20th as CL boosts are hard to get, a Wizard can shapechange himself and his familiar into great wyrm pyroclastic dragons and both unleash 120' line disintegration breath weapons (DC 40 Fort save or die, DC 43 if a +6 CON boosting item is wearable in dragon form). I would go on with more of the ridiculously stupid crap casters can do at this point, but I think just saying the word shapechange should be quite enough on its own.
allenchan
05-06-05, 09:28 PM CoCL gets abilities geared towards heavier armors, and yet are also clearly dex based, which seems to be sort of counter intuitive. CoCLs are best for a two level dip in a TWF build, nothing else.
Dunelord
05-07-05, 01:12 AM Too bad there is no way to get 10 attacks per round with melee weapons.

10th level Dervish can once a day.
xanadu
05-07-05, 07:18 PM Well, when you compare anything to a fighter, it is going to look too good an unbalanced.

Melee classes can never be overpowered when compared to druids, clerics, and wizards at high levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jay 05-06-05, 12:03 PM	Does anyone have any experiences with that PrC from Races of the Wild? Flavour-wise, I just love it. But it seems like it might be a bit too good, but perhaps I'm misjudging only because it seems so good to me... It's way better than the fighter, which is the most obvious comparison, but then, most things are at higher levels. But the champion gets a bunch of really neat abilities which could each almost hold a PrC on their own... and this class gets them all. Dex to damage? Check. Getting full benefits from 22 Dex in a mithral full plate? Check. Moving 30 ft. in a mithral full plate? Check. Bonus feats? Check. I really can't honestly say I'd be ready to allow a champion IMC, which is a shame, since I'd love to play the class, and don't feel comfortable asking other DMs for stuff I wouldn't allow. Does anyone think I'm overestimating the champion? Does anyone who thinks I'm not have any good advice on how to fix it?
DarknessEternal 05-06-05, 12:09 PM	The balance comes from, among many other things, their needing multiple high abilities that most warriors can ignore. In their case, Dex and Cha. You might be saying all warriors need Dex, but you'd be wrong. CoC don't get to spend bonus feats on TWF so the only reason other fighters need Dex isn't available to them without huge sacrifices. Cha needs no explanation. Their bonus feats don't even come from the list of feats most commonly chosen by warriors.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 05-06-05, 02:19 PM	But it seems like it might be a bit too good, but perhaps I'm misjudging only because it seems so good to me... I had a similar reaction. As compared to a Dex-based Fighter of the same level, the PrC has these benefits: 1) +3 AC (Superior Defense) 2) +8 damage (Elegant Strike) 3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath) 4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement) 5) +4 Will save 6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing) By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits: 1) +2 bonus feats 2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization Even if you consider half of the prereq feats to be wasted, the PrC is still (IMHO) too good. To fix it, I would recommend going through the list of benefits and saying "why do they get this?" with a critical eye. In particular, I would recommend three main changes: 1) Drop the high Will save. - Nothing in the flavour text supports this; it seems tacked on just because it's useful. 2) Give Dex to damage instead of Strength. - This is still plenty powerful---the character can almost completely dispense with boosting Str, giving it massive benefits from its racially-boosted Dex. This still might be too good---it lets the character be a heavy-armour tank without most of the drawbacks of heavy-armour tanks. 3) Make Corellon's Wrath a 3/day Smite Evil ability. - There's no reason why Corellon's Wrath shouldn't be handled as a Smite ability like every other class in existance does; the flavour text talks about "evil warriors", so make it a 3/day Smite Evil ability that stacks with a Paladin's ability of the same name. IMHO, the class is probably still too good, thanks to all the Dex-related benefits it gets, but this version might be reasonable.
Nuntius128 05-06-05, 03:19 PM	Whoa, they add Str and Dex for damage? I never noticed that. Crazy.
jay 05-06-05, 04:26 PM	Their bonus feats don't even come from the list of feats most commonly chosen by warriors. Eh? They don't get the Power Attack Chain, but they get the two other largest chains, those starting with Dodge and Combat Expertise.
jay 05-06-05, 04:33 PM	As compared to a Dex-based Fighter of the same level, the PrC has these benefits: 1) +3 AC (Superior Defense) 2) +8 damage (Elegant Strike) 3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath) 4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement) 5) +4 Will save 6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing) By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits: 1) +2 bonus feats 2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization To play the devil's advocate: is that a problem with the champion or the Dex-based fighter, a generally crappy option in D&D? I think a Str-based fighter would compare more favourably: he'll save one feat the champion will spend on Weapon Finesse and equal Str will give him more damage that the champion gets from Dex (probably ending about even when you count in champion's Str too). I'm not sure that it's a problem that the champion blows a Dex-fighter out of the water. An eldritch knight blows a Ftr/Wiz out of the water too. That's mostly the point. Granted, it still might be too good, but I don't think it needs to be balanced with a Dex-fighter, it needs to be balanced with a well-built fighter, and a Dex-fighter in D&D isn't it (which is why I like the champion so much).
Dire Celestial Bonobo 05-06-05, 04:59 PM	To play the devil's advocate: is that a problem with the champion or the Dex-based fighter, a generally crappy option in D&D? Whole threads have argued that Dex-based Fighters in D&D are not, in fact, crappy. However, you're probably right that comparing CoCLs to a Str-based Fighter is a better choice; in particular, I'll compare to a Half-Orc, since that cancels out the +2 racial stat bonus. In that case, the comparisons are: 1) +3 AC (Superior Defense) 2) +4 damage (Elegant Strike) 3) +2 to hit and +2d6 damage 3+Cha mod rounds/day (Corellon's Wrath) 4) +10' movement (Unimpeded Movement) 5) +4 Will save 6) Heal 10xCha mod damage (Corellon's Blessing) 7) +6 Reflex save By contrast, the Fighter has these benefits: 1) +3 bonus feats 2) Can take Greater Weapon Specialization 3) More likely to succeed on an offensive Trip or Bull Rush (if he can even take Improved Trip). i.e., the benefits are almost the same. In particular, the CoCL still has a significant damage bonus---since he and the Fighter both add their racial-bonus stat to attack and damage, those cancel out...but the CoCL can also add his Str bonus (+1 base, +3 more from cheap-at-high-level item), lifting his damage significantly above what the Str-based Fighter gets. The PrC is still way too good.
Dunelord 05-06-05, 06:54 PM	Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Champion of Corellon Larethian take 3 levels in Swashbuckler then add intellgence, dexterity, and stregnth to damage when he uses a rapier? Also I would like to suggest we use CoCL to represent the class since CoC is the term often used for the boards Code of Conduct.
Wyrd Bearer 05-06-05, 07:13 PM	Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Champion of Corellon Larethian take 3 levels in Swashbuckler then add intellgence, dexterity, and stregnth to damage when he uses a rapier? Also I would like to suggest we use CoCL to represent the class since CoC is the term often used for the boards Code of Conduct. Dang it, that's just sick! Well, at least its balanced by slowly making your character more and more MAD.
NinjaPenguin 05-06-05, 07:28 PM	I've never had a problem with being dependent on multiple abilities, but thats because i will never play in a point-buy game. I like rolling dice too much ;) So... Let me see now. If a Swashbuckler/Fighter/CoCL was, say... a Grey Elf... with a Rapier of Graceful Strike (Arms and Equipment)... Lets assume a base 18 in Dex and 16 in Int for simplicity, then up to 20th level... Dex 30 (including +6 Gloves), Int 22 (including +6 Headband) Graceful Strike replaces your Str with your Dex for base damage CoCL adds your Dex bonus to the base dammage on top of Str(now Dex due to item) Swash adds Int to damage... Rapier deals... 1d6+10+10+6 = 1d6+26 base damage without taking the fact its a magic weapon into account. Atticking 5 times a round (you have Haste boots, i'm sure) assuming you hit all those times is 5d6+130 damage before magic adjustments Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... I like it :) And isn't there a feat that lets you treat a One-handed weapon in your odd-hand like a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting? Double-weild +5 keen Graceful Strike rapiers :D 10 attacks per round for 10d6+310 damage every round, with a 15-20 crit rance on each of the attacks. And who says melee cant keep up with magic? ;)
Vaelan 05-06-05, 09:22 PM	Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... Ow... I like it And isn't there a feat that lets you treat a One-handed weapon in your odd-hand like a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting? Double-weild +5 keen Graceful Strike rapiers 10 attacks per round for 10d6+310 damage every round, with a 15-20 crit rance on each of the attacks. And who says melee cant keep up with magic? Too bad there is no way to get 10 attacks per round with melee weapons. Also, the Sword of Graceful Strikes is a shortsword, which does not work with the CoCL's class ability. How many full attacks are you going to be getting at any inteliigent opponent? Not many, especially if you do a lot of damage with a full attack. Also, most nonintelligent opponents (the ones you'd get to full-attack) are immune to criticals, which means you lose all of your bonuses to damage as they are precision-based. Further, the chances of many of your later attacks hitting is extremely small. Who says melee can't keep up with magic? I do. Even if this little scenario of yours wasn't taking a large number of variables for granted, which it is, you would need to be pretty close to level 20 to do this as well as you have outlined. At level 17th level or higher, preferably 20th as CL boosts are hard to get, a Wizard can shapechange himself and his familiar into great wyrm pyroclastic dragons and both unleash 120' line disintegration breath weapons (DC 40 Fort save or die, DC 43 if a +6 CON boosting item is wearable in dragon form). I would go on with more of the ridiculously stupid crap casters can do at this point, but I think just saying the word shapechange should be quite enough on its own.
allenchan 05-06-05, 09:28 PM	CoCL gets abilities geared towards heavier armors, and yet are also clearly dex based, which seems to be sort of counter intuitive. CoCLs are best for a two level dip in a TWF build, nothing else.
Dunelord 05-07-05, 01:12 AM	Too bad there is no way to get 10 attacks per round with melee weapons. 10th level Dervish can once a day.
xanadu 05-07-05, 07:18 PM	Well, when you compare anything to a fighter, it is going to look too good an unbalanced. Melee classes can never be overpowered when compared to druids, clerics, and wizards at high levels.