Change Fighter skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Change Fighter skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SolkaTruesilver
08-31-06, 09:54 PM I order to qualify for the Kensai PrC, One has to have 5 ranks in the Diplomacy and Concentration skills. It's fine for the Paladin, but if I want to play a Fighter Kensai, i will have to wait until lvl 10 to qualify.

So, I want to know if it would be unbalancing, or a heresy, if we changed the "Intimidate" class skill for "Diplomacy", and another one (probably "swim") for "Concentration".

PEACH
SeptimusMagistos
08-31-06, 10:04 PM I have to say that some class skills for fighter should be changed. But, probably not Intimidate.
Silverthumb128
08-31-06, 10:08 PM If you want, check out the Warrior class from Unearthed Arcana. In exchange for Heavy Armor and Tower Shields, you get to choose your own class skills and even which save is good for you. You won't get Fighter-only feats, either, so its sort of a Fighter with less umph, but more all-around versatility(outside of feats).
Seerow
08-31-06, 10:08 PM Actually you'd qualify at level 7, not level 10.
Szatany
08-31-06, 10:08 PM I order to qualify for the Kensai PrC, One has to have 5 ranks in the Diplomacy and Concentration skills. It's fine for the Paladin, but if I want to play a Fighter Kensai, i will have to wait until lvl 10 to qualify.

So, I want to know if it would be unbalancing, or a heresy, if we changed the "Intimidate" class skill for "Diplomacy", and another one (probably "swim") for "Concentration".

PEACH
It wouldn't be heresy or unbalancing even if you just added those 2 skills to your fighter for free.
DrakaraGM
09-02-06, 04:20 AM In my next campaign, I am using a house rule that says if you take a skill focus feat that adds +3 to a skill then that skill also becomes a class skill for the character from that point on, regardless of the class being advanced in, and similarly if you take a feat that adds +2 to two skills (i.e. Alertness for Listen and Spot) then those skills become class skills for the character.

It makes those feats more valuable for sure, but it is my solution to the player's desire to be able to make characters like fighters or clerics a little more customizable skill-wise without necessarily needing to multiclass. And it isn't like those are super-powerful feats to start with.

So the fighter who wants to play an alert guardsman type can take Alertness and keep Spot and Listen maxed out (assuming he is getting at least 2 skill points per level obviously), a character like the OPs who wants to aim for a specific PrC can use feats to get the extra class skills he needs to meet the prerequisites without multiclassing, and so on. It does cost a feat that the character might not have taken otherwise -- but the idea is that if the character is willing to devote a significan portion of his time practising that skill (i.e. devotes a feat to it) then he becomes able to advance in that skill regardless of what specific class he is pursuing.
Silverthumb128
09-02-06, 06:19 AM In my next campaign, I am using a house rule that says if you take a skill focus feat that adds +3 to a skill then that skill also becomes a class skill for the character from that point on, regardless of the class being advanced in, and similarly if you take a feat that adds +2 to two skills (i.e. Alertness for Listen and Spot) then those skills become class skills for the character.

Certainly doesn't sound game-breaking. Actually sounds pretty fair, personally, as well as being an actual reason to take Skill Focus and the +2 to related skills feats.
Votan
09-02-06, 09:40 AM Certainly doesn't sound game-breaking. Actually sounds pretty fair, personally, as well as being an actual reason to take Skill Focus and the +2 to related skills feats.

I agree. I have heard a version of this before except in that one you needed to take the skill boost ability at 1st level to get the skills converted to class skills. Makes the math easier. :)

But it remains my favorite Fighter variant because it uses the resource that Fighters have the most of (i.e. Feats) to bolster the features that interfere with cetain game concepts of a Fighter.
Legdiwena
09-02-06, 12:46 PM can those feats be taken as fighter bonus feats?
Jerks
09-02-06, 01:45 PM Not a bad ideal, and there is already some precedent for similarly powered feats. Research give you all knowledge skills as class skills and a +1 bonus to two of them (of your choice).
malisteen
09-02-06, 01:48 PM Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat.
Thane26425
09-02-06, 01:50 PM It wouldn't be heresy or unbalancing even if you just added those 2 skills to your fighter for free.

I don't think it would be. If a player can explain to me why a character should have a certain skill, I'll usually let them. If the character came from a merchant background, they could add Appraise and Diplomacy. If they were hunters, but not rangers, they could add Hide, Move Silently and Survival. I've even upped the points base from 2 to 4 very often.
aramis80
09-03-06, 09:34 AM Not a bad ideal, and there is already some precedent for similarly powered feats. Research give you all knowledge skills as class skills and a +1 bonus to two of them (of your choice).

I think you mean the education feat. Iwould make them similar to guerilla scout and guerilla warrior in Heroes of Battle. You can buy two cross- class skills for one point per skill rank, but still only half your class skills. A more general version but humans and doppelgangers only is Able Learner from Races of Destiny.
Jerks
09-04-06, 09:58 PM Yup, Education is the one I was thinking of. I stand corrected...actually, to be perfectly honest, I'm sitting right now.
ezreal2001
09-04-06, 10:28 PM Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat.

Why not?

Given the magic rich environment of your average DnD, UMD reflects an understanding gained from on going exposure to the environment.

And more to the point I don't see anything game breaking in granting it to a fighter as a class feat if push came to shove.
aramis80
09-05-06, 04:44 AM Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat.

I'm not completely sure, but doesn't give the arcane apprentice feat from DMG2 Use Magic Device and Spellcraft as class skills?
Dionon
09-05-06, 04:58 AM I agree the fighter is REALLY underpowered with their skill selection....

I honestly, if I had a choice, would add Listen and Spot to their repetoire as class skills, just because if a Fighter can't watch his own back, how's he gonna watch yours?

Other than that, I like the Skill Focus idea.... it's pretty snazzy :D
Clawhound
09-05-06, 09:36 AM To me, the problem is backwards. Fighter is fine. It's kensai that has the poor design. The requirements are odd. I never understood why most fighting prestige classes need so many counterintuitive requirements.
1CentSage
09-05-06, 12:25 PM I would actually go even a step further and think it would be ok to get rid of the concept of class skills entirely (the system balances itself by the number of skill points available with a few minor exceptions that can be fixed individually) and just keep certain uses of skills exclusive to a given class (e.g. search/tapfinding with rogues)
Radagast
09-05-06, 12:40 PM It also balances itself out to some level with attributes - most fighters are not going to buff up their Charisma so that they can better Use Magic Device. Honestly, if somebody wanted such a character concept, I'd probably be happy for the change of pace vs. concerned about unbalancing situations, though there may be some unbalancing situations out there, of course.
Steevo
09-05-06, 12:53 PM To me, the problem is backwards. Fighter is fine. It's kensai that has the poor design. The requirements are odd. I never understood why most fighting prestige classes need so many counterintuitive requirements.

Personally, I never understood why Concentration is CON based. That's the most counterintuitive thing I've seen in the game so far. Maybe they were stretching for a Skill that could be CON based? I dunno. Seems like it ought to be INT to me. Just my completely random two cents.

I do like this house rule idea, though. I think I'll add it to the list of house rules I intend to use or consider using in future games of my own.

And yeah, I don't see any problem with this house rule and skills like Use Magic Device or Spellcraft. Magic may not be something that everyone inherently understands, but it's still a part of the game universe and those who spend time learning will learn. Maybe the fighter really hates mages and spends a lot of time tracking down the more destructive of their kind. He can't cast spells himself, but he can identify them easily enough. Stuff like that.
SolkaTruesilver
09-06-06, 03:45 PM Problem solved, my DM accepted to change the class skills of fighter because I'm a Dwarven Prince, so Diplomacy instead of Intimidate, and Concentration instead of Swim.

If I get my hands on a ring of Evasion, with the Kensai "withstand" ability, no spell could touch me! MWAHAHAHA!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SolkaTruesilver 08-31-06, 09:54 PM	I order to qualify for the Kensai PrC, One has to have 5 ranks in the Diplomacy and Concentration skills. It's fine for the Paladin, but if I want to play a Fighter Kensai, i will have to wait until lvl 10 to qualify. So, I want to know if it would be unbalancing, or a heresy, if we changed the "Intimidate" class skill for "Diplomacy", and another one (probably "swim") for "Concentration". PEACH
SeptimusMagistos 08-31-06, 10:04 PM	I have to say that some class skills for fighter should be changed. But, probably not Intimidate.
Silverthumb128 08-31-06, 10:08 PM	If you want, check out the Warrior class from Unearthed Arcana. In exchange for Heavy Armor and Tower Shields, you get to choose your own class skills and even which save is good for you. You won't get Fighter-only feats, either, so its sort of a Fighter with less umph, but more all-around versatility(outside of feats).
Seerow 08-31-06, 10:08 PM	Actually you'd qualify at level 7, not level 10.
Szatany 08-31-06, 10:08 PM	I order to qualify for the Kensai PrC, One has to have 5 ranks in the Diplomacy and Concentration skills. It's fine for the Paladin, but if I want to play a Fighter Kensai, i will have to wait until lvl 10 to qualify. So, I want to know if it would be unbalancing, or a heresy, if we changed the "Intimidate" class skill for "Diplomacy", and another one (probably "swim") for "Concentration". PEACH It wouldn't be heresy or unbalancing even if you just added those 2 skills to your fighter for free.
DrakaraGM 09-02-06, 04:20 AM	In my next campaign, I am using a house rule that says if you take a skill focus feat that adds +3 to a skill then that skill also becomes a class skill for the character from that point on, regardless of the class being advanced in, and similarly if you take a feat that adds +2 to two skills (i.e. Alertness for Listen and Spot) then those skills become class skills for the character. It makes those feats more valuable for sure, but it is my solution to the player's desire to be able to make characters like fighters or clerics a little more customizable skill-wise without necessarily needing to multiclass. And it isn't like those are super-powerful feats to start with. So the fighter who wants to play an alert guardsman type can take Alertness and keep Spot and Listen maxed out (assuming he is getting at least 2 skill points per level obviously), a character like the OPs who wants to aim for a specific PrC can use feats to get the extra class skills he needs to meet the prerequisites without multiclassing, and so on. It does cost a feat that the character might not have taken otherwise -- but the idea is that if the character is willing to devote a significan portion of his time practising that skill (i.e. devotes a feat to it) then he becomes able to advance in that skill regardless of what specific class he is pursuing.
Silverthumb128 09-02-06, 06:19 AM	In my next campaign, I am using a house rule that says if you take a skill focus feat that adds +3 to a skill then that skill also becomes a class skill for the character from that point on, regardless of the class being advanced in, and similarly if you take a feat that adds +2 to two skills (i.e. Alertness for Listen and Spot) then those skills become class skills for the character. Certainly doesn't sound game-breaking. Actually sounds pretty fair, personally, as well as being an actual reason to take Skill Focus and the +2 to related skills feats.
Votan 09-02-06, 09:40 AM	Certainly doesn't sound game-breaking. Actually sounds pretty fair, personally, as well as being an actual reason to take Skill Focus and the +2 to related skills feats. I agree. I have heard a version of this before except in that one you needed to take the skill boost ability at 1st level to get the skills converted to class skills. Makes the math easier. :) But it remains my favorite Fighter variant because it uses the resource that Fighters have the most of (i.e. Feats) to bolster the features that interfere with cetain game concepts of a Fighter.
Legdiwena 09-02-06, 12:46 PM	can those feats be taken as fighter bonus feats?
Jerks 09-02-06, 01:45 PM	Not a bad ideal, and there is already some precedent for similarly powered feats. Research give you all knowledge skills as class skills and a +1 bonus to two of them (of your choice).
malisteen 09-02-06, 01:48 PM	Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat.
Thane26425 09-02-06, 01:50 PM	It wouldn't be heresy or unbalancing even if you just added those 2 skills to your fighter for free. I don't think it would be. If a player can explain to me why a character should have a certain skill, I'll usually let them. If the character came from a merchant background, they could add Appraise and Diplomacy. If they were hunters, but not rangers, they could add Hide, Move Silently and Survival. I've even upped the points base from 2 to 4 very often.
aramis80 09-03-06, 09:34 AM	Not a bad ideal, and there is already some precedent for similarly powered feats. Research give you all knowledge skills as class skills and a +1 bonus to two of them (of your choice). I think you mean the education feat. Iwould make them similar to guerilla scout and guerilla warrior in Heroes of Battle. You can buy two cross- class skills for one point per skill rank, but still only half your class skills. A more general version but humans and doppelgangers only is Able Learner from Races of Destiny.
Jerks 09-04-06, 09:58 PM	Yup, Education is the one I was thinking of. I stand corrected...actually, to be perfectly honest, I'm sitting right now.
ezreal2001 09-04-06, 10:28 PM	Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat. Why not? Given the magic rich environment of your average DnD, UMD reflects an understanding gained from on going exposure to the environment. And more to the point I don't see anything game breaking in granting it to a fighter as a class feat if push came to shove.
aramis80 09-05-06, 04:44 AM	Skill focus granting a class skill is fine for pretty much any skill... until you reach Use Magic Device. That is not a skill that I'd hand out full, class skill ranks in to anybody who can spare a feat. I'm not completely sure, but doesn't give the arcane apprentice feat from DMG2 Use Magic Device and Spellcraft as class skills?
Dionon 09-05-06, 04:58 AM	I agree the fighter is REALLY underpowered with their skill selection.... I honestly, if I had a choice, would add Listen and Spot to their repetoire as class skills, just because if a Fighter can't watch his own back, how's he gonna watch yours? Other than that, I like the Skill Focus idea.... it's pretty snazzy :D
Clawhound 09-05-06, 09:36 AM	To me, the problem is backwards. Fighter is fine. It's kensai that has the poor design. The requirements are odd. I never understood why most fighting prestige classes need so many counterintuitive requirements.
1CentSage 09-05-06, 12:25 PM	I would actually go even a step further and think it would be ok to get rid of the concept of class skills entirely (the system balances itself by the number of skill points available with a few minor exceptions that can be fixed individually) and just keep certain uses of skills exclusive to a given class (e.g. search/tapfinding with rogues)
Radagast 09-05-06, 12:40 PM	It also balances itself out to some level with attributes - most fighters are not going to buff up their Charisma so that they can better Use Magic Device. Honestly, if somebody wanted such a character concept, I'd probably be happy for the change of pace vs. concerned about unbalancing situations, though there may be some unbalancing situations out there, of course.
Steevo 09-05-06, 12:53 PM	To me, the problem is backwards. Fighter is fine. It's kensai that has the poor design. The requirements are odd. I never understood why most fighting prestige classes need so many counterintuitive requirements. Personally, I never understood why Concentration is CON based. That's the most counterintuitive thing I've seen in the game so far. Maybe they were stretching for a Skill that could be CON based? I dunno. Seems like it ought to be INT to me. Just my completely random two cents. I do like this house rule idea, though. I think I'll add it to the list of house rules I intend to use or consider using in future games of my own. And yeah, I don't see any problem with this house rule and skills like Use Magic Device or Spellcraft. Magic may not be something that everyone inherently understands, but it's still a part of the game universe and those who spend time learning will learn. Maybe the fighter really hates mages and spends a lot of time tracking down the more destructive of their kind. He can't cast spells himself, but he can identify them easily enough. Stuff like that.
SolkaTruesilver 09-06-06, 03:45 PM	Problem solved, my DM accepted to change the class skills of fighter because I'm a Dwarven Prince, so Diplomacy instead of Intimidate, and Concentration instead of Swim. If I get my hands on a ring of Evasion, with the Kensai "withstand" ability, no spell could touch me! MWAHAHAHA!!!