Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArkhamInmate 12-05-07, 08:04 PM	I was thinking about starting a new campaign world and in this world, i've kind of decided thats bards shouldn't be spell casters, what can i add to the class to make up for their loss of magic?
vorpo 12-05-07, 08:06 PM	depends... what is ur version of bard to be? SLA? psionics? martial discipline? feats? or simply upped the bardic music use per day and more types of music?
ArkhamInmate 12-05-07, 08:13 PM	depends... what is ur version of bard to be? SLA? psionics? martial discipline? feats? or simply upped the bardic music use per day and more types of music? I was thinking about putting more emphasis on the music and maybe making them a little more useful in a fight, but i just don't know how to do it, as for psionics, i haven't liked them since 2nd edition and i want no part of them
Ralvuimego 12-05-07, 08:38 PM	I was thinking about putting more emphasis on the music and maybe making them a little more useful in a fight, but i just don't know how to do it, as for psionics, i haven't liked them since 2nd edition and i want no part of them Honestly, psionics has come a long way from 2e (Where all the rumors and hate toward psionics usually stem from). It really is worth another look. Anyway, back on topic... Bard with no spells, coming up. Hit Dice: Change to D8 Skills: Change to 8+int modifier Lose: Spellcasting Gain: Bonus Feat at level 2, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Bardic Music: Grants a number of uses of the bardic music ability equal to their class level + Cha mod, instead of just Class Level. It won't come out as versatile as the standard PhB bard, but he's sturdier, more skilled and more mundanely talented. Given some more time, I could likely make up some custom class features to put in there, but I'm just killing a few minutes before work. There are some nice Bardic Music feats in Complete Adventurer that give new uses for the class feature, so you can feel free to use those.
ArkhamInmate 12-05-07, 08:42 PM	Honestly, psionics has come a long way from 2e (Where all the rumors and hate toward psionics usually stem from). It really is worth another look. Anyway, back on topic... Bard with no spells, coming up. Hit Dice: Change to D8 Skills: Change to 8+int modifier Lose: Spellcasting Gain: Bonus Feat at level 2, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. It won't come out as versatile as the standard PhB bard, but he's sturdier, more skilled and more mundanely talented. Given some more time, I could likely make up some custom class features to put in there, but I'm just killing a few minutes before work. I like this, also on the upping of bardic music, what do you think of maybe 2 or 3 times a day per class level? or would that be to much? and back to the psionics, i have the 3.5 stuff and while it is a lot more streamlined than 2nd edition, i just don't like the whole feel of psionics, that word always seemed more sci-fi than fantasy to me
Ralvuimego 12-05-07, 09:08 PM	I like this, also on the upping of bardic music, what do you think of maybe 2 or 3 times a day per class level? or would that be to much? and back to the psionics, i have the 3.5 stuff and while it is a lot more streamlined than 2nd edition, i just don't like the whole feel of psionics, that word always seemed more sci-fi than fantasy to me The only time I'd see an issue with the number of times a bard can use his bardic music ability is between levels 1 and 5, and in these cases the easiest way to fix that would be to give them a number of uses per day equal to their class level + their Charisma mod. I changed my variant to match this.
The_Shaman 12-05-07, 09:13 PM	I like this, also on the upping of bardic music, what do you think of maybe 2 or 3 times a day per class level? Probably not. Already a DM is supposed to only throw a couple of encounters/day, just how many music instances do you want? [QUOTE=ArkhamInmate;14511089] and back to the psionics, i have the 3.5 stuff and while it is a lot more streamlined than 2nd edition, i just don't like the whole feel of psionics, that word always seemed more sci-fi than fantasy to me Weird, I always considered it more like a ki-based thing. Then again, I always like the psy-warrior, rogue, or lurk more than the psion/wilder, so I presume my favoring the PW shaped how I view psionics in general. A bard with lurk manifesting or even P-rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) manifesting can be quite something. Generally, though, I'd give a spellless bard either some feats - with limitations such as only lyric or fighter feats - or a little sneak attack/sudden strike. They are scoundrels, after all - maybe not the kind of rakes rogues are, but not that different. 5d6 or so should be okay, I guess. You could do both if you're generous - a bit of casting and a bit of SA. Anyway, what about some ToB stuff? You could, say, give them a limited access to some White Raven maneuvers, maybe at the cost of bardic music. If you do want to give them prodigious music attempts, you could use them to pay for maneuvers instead.
Shadowfax7 12-05-07, 09:31 PM	IMC a player is presently using a variant Bard I created which has Class Level + Cha bonus in Bardic Music uses/day, Bonus Feats at each level he would of gained a spell level plus at 19th level (thus 2nd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th) and can use these bonus feats for any general feat or Bardic Music feat (I have also expanded the Bardic Music feats available). Up to now the player believes it is enjoyable and balanced.
ArkhamInmate 12-05-07, 09:53 PM	Anyway, what about some ToB stuff? You could, say, give them a limited access to some White Raven maneuvers, maybe at the cost of bardic music. If you do want to give them prodigious music attempts, you could use them to pay for maneuvers instead. I'd love to add some ToB stuff but for some reason most of my players aren't huge fans of the book, and dislike using it
vorpo 12-05-07, 10:04 PM	I think you should look at ALL the bard ACF's from all sources. And adopt all of them into your bard and upping the music per day will do the trick. Here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) is a link to a compendium of all substitution lvls and ACF's. It would help
Arminel 12-06-07, 03:53 AM	A good friend of mine is currently looking over the Bard, positive that spellcasting doesn't fit the flavor of the Bard. I suggested perhaps a mix of the Bard and Dancer from Final Fantasy Tactics and we've been going over that type of Bard. I'll post it when ready =]
ArkhamInmate 12-06-07, 04:02 AM	A good friend of mine is currently looking over the Bard, positive that spellcasting doesn't fit the flavor of the Bard. I suggested perhaps a mix of the Bard and Dancer from Final Fantasy Tactics and we've been going over that type of Bard. I'll post it when ready =] Please send it my way when you finish it
Daeva 12-06-07, 04:30 AM	taking a look at the spell less bard variants in 2.0 you had the skald who just used priest instead of rouge progression (priest was faster than rogue) got a bonus hp each level, and the ability to hum for +1 to hit and damage to self. kept its backstab, slightly worse skill progression could translate that into 1d8 hp (or improved toughness) sneak attack at 2 6 10 14 18, and +1 to hit and damage when under effect of their own song and 6+ skills and the other one got was based on a fancy fighter, had no spell casting, got a duel wield progression and a defense progression but still 1d6 hp, backstabbed at -4 levels, and reduced bard song. butno chang ein skill progression could translate into TWF progression at 2 6 11, and two weapon defense progression at 4 8 13, backstab at 3 8 13 18, and ignore the song penalty, or make it as a bard -2. there was a third one but it was utterly horrid, the jester same skills, lost armor proficiency, did get +1/+5% on all it did (cant remember if that included hp rolls, i know it didn't include damage), had a debuff song instead of a buff one. and lost backstab. would translate into an utter piece of poo
Shadowfax7 12-06-07, 08:49 AM	taking a look at the spell less bard variants in 2.0 you had the skald who just used priest instead of rouge progression (priest was faster than rogue) got a bonus hp each level, and the ability to hum for +1 to hit and damage to self. kept its backstab, slightly worse skill progression could translate that into 1d8 hp (or improved toughness) sneak attack at 2 6 10 14 18, and +1 to hit and damage when under effect of their own song and 6+ skills and the other one got was based on a fancy fighter, had no spell casting, got a duel wield progression and a defense progression but still 1d6 hp, backstabbed at -4 levels, and reduced bard song. butno chang ein skill progression could translate into TWF progression at 2 6 11, and two weapon defense progression at 4 8 13, backstab at 3 8 13 18, and ignore the song penalty, or make it as a bard -2. I remember these 2 "kits" (as they were called in 2 ed.), but I don't remember either of them having "backstab" at all, especially since the 2 ed. Bard didn't have it.
Fireclave 12-06-07, 09:37 AM	i have the 3.5 stuff and while it is a lot more streamlined than 2nd edition, i just don't like the whole feel of psionics, that word always seemed more sci-fi than fantasy to me Words can always be changed. If you change Energy Cone's name to something like Tiamat's Vengeful Breath, it sounds more "magical" and less "sci-fi", depending, of course, on how exactly you define the sci-fi/fantasy divide if you believe one exists at all. 3.5 psionic's mechanics are solid and flavor is always mutable. Personally, I don't see why people say psionics sound sci-fi, but meh. Anyway, back on topic. Just an idea, but maybe try replacing the bard's spells a mechanic similar to the warlock invocations. Give bards access to a small number of supernatural "performances" that would provide a significant, party-oriented effect. You could even make them require certain performance skills to help differentiate bards even more. The Ode to the Sun God, for example, could require ranks i Perform (singing) or Perform (oratory) and provide the party a bonus when fighting undead. The Dance of the Four Winds would require Perform (dance) could add to the party's flight speed and maneuverability. Just a thought.
ArkhamInmate 12-06-07, 11:31 PM	What would you think of dropping spells, and giving them access to the inspiration ability of factotums? And adding bonus feats when they would normally get a new use of arcane dilettante?
Jaxgaret 12-06-07, 11:55 PM	What would you think of dropping spells, and giving them access to the inspiration ability of factotums? And adding bonus feats when they would normally get a new use of arcane dilettante? For a simpler conversion, why not just take a Factotum and trade Arcane Dilettante for Bardic Music (level + Cha mod/day) & Bardic Knowledge?
Daeva 12-07-07, 02:25 AM	oh look at that your right bards as written had no backstab modifier, we just house ruled that they received back stab at the reduced "stalker" kit class for the ranger i remember it clearly now, and the bard two weapon fighter was called blade. there was a bard kit that traded their spells for back stab though, which considering the horrendous pace that bards gained spells wasn't that bad.