Changling Warshaper/Monk unarmed strike? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changling Warshaper/Monk unarmed strike? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
uneasyspider
05-10-05, 12:55 AM Ok, first off, i'm not sure if a changling can be a warshaper based on his race, but my DM allowed it.

Here is my thing.

My Changling is a 16th level monk and a first level warshaper.

There's a line in the monk unarmed strike discription that states that an unarmed strike is a natural weapon for purposes of spells and such abilities.

Does my unarmed strike get affected by morphic weapon (warshaper ability) to make the unarmed strike (as a natural weapon) do larger damage?

I hope this is enough explaination as needed to help with the question.
stamhaven
05-10-05, 10:46 AM If your DM is bending rules enough to let you take warshaper and use its benefits in general then I don't see while he wouldn't let you get the size bonus, but that's entirely their call. Personally I'd not let a changeling qualify for warshaper class or morphic qualities by virtue of "minor change" which in its description is signifigantly weaker than alter self, and alter self isn't sufficient to enter the class. A changeling druid with wildshape or wizard/sorcerer with polymorph would be fine though (I'd bend to let warshaper levels stack with druid for duration and HD cap with druids but not uses per day ot sizes and types... warshaper mages don't need it with practiced spellcaster and transmographist availible). Setting some limits on morphic weapons options of how many natural weapons you can add is probably a good idea too.
MaverickWolf
05-10-05, 12:34 PM If your DM is bending rules enough to let you take warshaper and use its benefits in general then I don't see while he wouldn't let you get the size bonus, but that's entirely their call. Personally I'd not let a changeling qualify for warshaper class or morphic qualities by virtue of "minor change" which in its description is signifigantly weaker than alter self, and alter self isn't sufficient to enter the class. A changeling druid with wildshape or wizard/sorcerer with polymorph would be fine though (I'd bend to let warshaper levels stack with druid for duration and HD cap with druids but not uses per day ot sizes and types... warshaper mages don't need it with practiced spellcaster and transmographist availible). Setting some limits on morphic weapons options of how many natural weapons you can add is probably a good idea too.
The DM isn't bending rules at all. The warshaper prestige class can be accessed through a number of means, one of which is having the shapechanger subtype. Changelings have the shapechanger subtype, henceforth qualifying them for the class.
uneasyspider
05-10-05, 03:14 PM Hmm. Indeed interesting.

I'm concerned about this particular call, though. Basically does the monk's unarmed strike discription name the unarmed strike a natural weapon for the case of morphic weapon?
K_Man
05-10-05, 04:55 PM But don't the Warshaper's abilities only kick in when not in your "standard" form? Granted, if you can change all you want, when you want, no biggie, but there is that limitation, too.
uneasyspider
05-10-05, 05:08 PM Sure. But as a changling I can be in a human form and still use my monk's unarmed strike and it's ki damage.

Why wouldn't the unarmed strike not do larger damage as a 'natural weapon' for the purpose of morphic weapon?
K_Man
05-10-05, 08:05 PM I wasn't arguing, I was just pointing out.

Of course, I have a Weretiger Barbarian/Scout. Now, with 2 levels in Warshaper.

However, I, as well as my DM, agree that the Warshaper is just plain ridiculous if you are in an alternate form more often than not in combat (which basically leaves the Polymorph qualifier). So, we basically took all abilities that it gets and cut it in half. So, 50% immune, +2 STR and CON, 1 Fast Heal...the non numeric things such as 5' more reach and Morphic Weapons we left the same. I still rock, with a large greatsword and a STR in the area of 32. A lot of that is from the template, but adding 100% immune and all the rest would be overkill.
Vaelan
05-10-05, 08:07 PM Morphic Weapon allows you to "grow" a natural weapon.

An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, even though it is treated as such for certain specific purposes of which this is not one of, and thus you cannot choose to "grow" an unarmed strike.

The increase in damage is caused by an attempt to "grow" a natural weapon you already possess.

The rules are ambiguous, so it is up to the DM.
uneasyspider
05-11-05, 03:32 AM Morphic Weapon allows you to "grow" a natural weapon.

An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, even though it is treated as such for certain specific purposes of which this is not one of, and thus you cannot choose to "grow" an unarmed strike.

The increase in damage is caused by an attempt to "grow" a natural weapon you already possess.

The rules are ambiguous, so it is up to the DM.

Well I was finally convinced otehrwise when I looked at the wording closely and spoke clearly about it with my DM.

This is the paragraph in the unarmed strike discription for the monk on page 41 of the PHB:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells or effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as magic fang and magic weapon spells).

Simply, I asked my DM; "Is "morphic weapon" of the warshaper an effect which enhances or improves a natural weapon?"

Of course I was talking about the ability for the natural attack to deal damage of one size catagory larger.

I have to ask you the same question Vaelan. I'd type up the first two paragraphs of morphic weapon, but i'm not sure it's needed for this specific question.

Please understand i'm not trying to argue, i'd just like a very good counter-point to this.
uneasyspider
05-11-05, 11:06 PM Eh. My DM made a ruling and said even if in the books i'm right, he's going to go over the books and rule above them. DM's always right.

Curious to know if it's true that i'm right within hte books though, since he might be forced to change it since i just found out that two other members were secretly level one warshapers as well. Haha.
Vaelan
05-11-05, 11:40 PM As I said, uneasyspider, it is ambiguous.

It could be interpreted that the ability gives you a list of what types of natural weapons you may "grow" when it refers you to the table in the MM.

Also, being able to grow an unarmed strike causes a conflict in the ability's text. The first sentence says, "a warshaper can grow a natural weapon such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack...".

Having an unarmed strike does not allow one to make a natural attack. This could be seen as a pretty good sign that this ability was never intended to affect a Monk's unarmed strike.

You could make a decent argument either way, so it is purely DM discretion.
slade_caizer
05-12-05, 12:04 AM Having an unarmed strike does not allow one to make a natural attack.

I'm still having trouble with the idea that a fist is not a natural weapon. Most assuredly it is a well-structured and sturdy part of the body used in a offensive manner. Isn't that what felines do with claws?

I dare say in the case of humans that our nails and teeth don't make very good tools, but bludgeoning something to :censored: certainly is. The whole "the monk's unarmed strike is manufactured and natural..." is _probably_ there to point out that you can use either Magic Weapon or Magic Fang on our Monk.

To look at it from another direction, what is a slam attack? It's a natural weapon, I seem to recall. Then when I looked up the definition/explanation, it's the use of a limb to bludgeon/bash someone/something. That sounds like a fairly adequate, if simple, description of how the monk goes to work.

So does the Monk have a natural weapon? Yes. I dare say that PHB races are a little bit unusual in that they aren't automatically proficient in their natural weapons, but that would be a product of society and 'sophistication'. It's the whole "men don't fight like beasts; they're better than that" philosophy.

Now, it's been pointed out that the Morphic Weapons feature lets you grow/create a natural weapon. To me that would imply one not already existant, though I have this nagging sensation at the back of my mind that it goes on to say a Warshaper can use one it already has.

If you can reproduce and improve an pre-existing natural attack, then go for it. If the ability doesn't say you can, then just give the Monk claws suited to a creature larger than it. Then you're good to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uneasyspider 05-10-05, 12:55 AM	Ok, first off, i'm not sure if a changling can be a warshaper based on his race, but my DM allowed it. Here is my thing. My Changling is a 16th level monk and a first level warshaper. There's a line in the monk unarmed strike discription that states that an unarmed strike is a natural weapon for purposes of spells and such abilities. Does my unarmed strike get affected by morphic weapon (warshaper ability) to make the unarmed strike (as a natural weapon) do larger damage? I hope this is enough explaination as needed to help with the question.
stamhaven 05-10-05, 10:46 AM	If your DM is bending rules enough to let you take warshaper and use its benefits in general then I don't see while he wouldn't let you get the size bonus, but that's entirely their call. Personally I'd not let a changeling qualify for warshaper class or morphic qualities by virtue of "minor change" which in its description is signifigantly weaker than alter self, and alter self isn't sufficient to enter the class. A changeling druid with wildshape or wizard/sorcerer with polymorph would be fine though (I'd bend to let warshaper levels stack with druid for duration and HD cap with druids but not uses per day ot sizes and types... warshaper mages don't need it with practiced spellcaster and transmographist availible). Setting some limits on morphic weapons options of how many natural weapons you can add is probably a good idea too.
MaverickWolf 05-10-05, 12:34 PM	If your DM is bending rules enough to let you take warshaper and use its benefits in general then I don't see while he wouldn't let you get the size bonus, but that's entirely their call. Personally I'd not let a changeling qualify for warshaper class or morphic qualities by virtue of "minor change" which in its description is signifigantly weaker than alter self, and alter self isn't sufficient to enter the class. A changeling druid with wildshape or wizard/sorcerer with polymorph would be fine though (I'd bend to let warshaper levels stack with druid for duration and HD cap with druids but not uses per day ot sizes and types... warshaper mages don't need it with practiced spellcaster and transmographist availible). Setting some limits on morphic weapons options of how many natural weapons you can add is probably a good idea too. The DM isn't bending rules at all. The warshaper prestige class can be accessed through a number of means, one of which is having the shapechanger subtype. Changelings have the shapechanger subtype, henceforth qualifying them for the class.
uneasyspider 05-10-05, 03:14 PM	Hmm. Indeed interesting. I'm concerned about this particular call, though. Basically does the monk's unarmed strike discription name the unarmed strike a natural weapon for the case of morphic weapon?
K_Man 05-10-05, 04:55 PM	But don't the Warshaper's abilities only kick in when not in your "standard" form? Granted, if you can change all you want, when you want, no biggie, but there is that limitation, too.
uneasyspider 05-10-05, 05:08 PM	Sure. But as a changling I can be in a human form and still use my monk's unarmed strike and it's ki damage. Why wouldn't the unarmed strike not do larger damage as a 'natural weapon' for the purpose of morphic weapon?
K_Man 05-10-05, 08:05 PM	I wasn't arguing, I was just pointing out. Of course, I have a Weretiger Barbarian/Scout. Now, with 2 levels in Warshaper. However, I, as well as my DM, agree that the Warshaper is just plain ridiculous if you are in an alternate form more often than not in combat (which basically leaves the Polymorph qualifier). So, we basically took all abilities that it gets and cut it in half. So, 50% immune, +2 STR and CON, 1 Fast Heal...the non numeric things such as 5' more reach and Morphic Weapons we left the same. I still rock, with a large greatsword and a STR in the area of 32. A lot of that is from the template, but adding 100% immune and all the rest would be overkill.
Vaelan 05-10-05, 08:07 PM	Morphic Weapon allows you to "grow" a natural weapon. An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, even though it is treated as such for certain specific purposes of which this is not one of, and thus you cannot choose to "grow" an unarmed strike. The increase in damage is caused by an attempt to "grow" a natural weapon you already possess. The rules are ambiguous, so it is up to the DM.
uneasyspider 05-11-05, 03:32 AM	Morphic Weapon allows you to "grow" a natural weapon. An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, even though it is treated as such for certain specific purposes of which this is not one of, and thus you cannot choose to "grow" an unarmed strike. The increase in damage is caused by an attempt to "grow" a natural weapon you already possess. The rules are ambiguous, so it is up to the DM. Well I was finally convinced otehrwise when I looked at the wording closely and spoke clearly about it with my DM. This is the paragraph in the unarmed strike discription for the monk on page 41 of the PHB: A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells or effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as magic fang and magic weapon spells). Simply, I asked my DM; "Is "morphic weapon" of the warshaper an effect which enhances or improves a natural weapon?" Of course I was talking about the ability for the natural attack to deal damage of one size catagory larger. I have to ask you the same question Vaelan. I'd type up the first two paragraphs of morphic weapon, but i'm not sure it's needed for this specific question. Please understand i'm not trying to argue, i'd just like a very good counter-point to this.
uneasyspider 05-11-05, 11:06 PM	Eh. My DM made a ruling and said even if in the books i'm right, he's going to go over the books and rule above them. DM's always right. Curious to know if it's true that i'm right within hte books though, since he might be forced to change it since i just found out that two other members were secretly level one warshapers as well. Haha.
Vaelan 05-11-05, 11:40 PM	As I said, uneasyspider, it is ambiguous. It could be interpreted that the ability gives you a list of what types of natural weapons you may "grow" when it refers you to the table in the MM. Also, being able to grow an unarmed strike causes a conflict in the ability's text. The first sentence says, "a warshaper can grow a natural weapon such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack...". Having an unarmed strike does not allow one to make a natural attack. This could be seen as a pretty good sign that this ability was never intended to affect a Monk's unarmed strike. You could make a decent argument either way, so it is purely DM discretion.
slade_caizer 05-12-05, 12:04 AM	Having an unarmed strike does not allow one to make a natural attack. I'm still having trouble with the idea that a fist is not a natural weapon. Most assuredly it is a well-structured and sturdy part of the body used in a offensive manner. Isn't that what felines do with claws? I dare say in the case of humans that our nails and teeth don't make very good tools, but bludgeoning something to :censored: certainly is. The whole "the monk's unarmed strike is manufactured and natural..." is _probably_ there to point out that you can use either Magic Weapon or Magic Fang on our Monk. To look at it from another direction, what is a slam attack? It's a natural weapon, I seem to recall. Then when I looked up the definition/explanation, it's the use of a limb to bludgeon/bash someone/something. That sounds like a fairly adequate, if simple, description of how the monk goes to work. So does the Monk have a natural weapon? Yes. I dare say that PHB races are a little bit unusual in that they aren't automatically proficient in their natural weapons, but that would be a product of society and 'sophistication'. It's the whole "men don't fight like beasts; they're better than that" philosophy. Now, it's been pointed out that the Morphic Weapons feature lets you grow/create a natural weapon. To me that would imply one not already existant, though I have this nagging sensation at the back of my mind that it goes on to say a Warshaper can use one it already has. If you can reproduce and improve an pre-existing natural attack, then go for it. If the ability doesn't say you can, then just give the Monk claws suited to a creature larger than it. Then you're good to go.