Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Ultimate Warriror 10-25-05, 12:18 PM	How can I effectively play this character? I am playing one now, however no priests or clerics will assist me. They are always trying to turn me. My DM makes sure that they know I am a vampire anyway. I am building a church in this paladin/churchless town, that was ravaged by vampires. I am unable to travel due to security issues during the day, and I am unable to buy things because all of the stores are closed at night. The other vampires are evil and are trying to kill me. And my domination keeps getting saved vs will. I would like to play a Vampire Paladin, however my DM assured me that upon my first thirst, I would lose that status. I need help! I am level 6, so what would my CR rating be versus? It is only two of us in the party and she is level 6 too, also a vampire. Also, I am tired of going into rooms or caves or house where my Gaseous Form immediately stops working. Arghhh....
DRavenhawk 10-25-05, 12:43 PM	Maybe you shouldnt have tried the vamp with a DM who obviously is only going to allow you to do certain things.
Fayle 10-25-05, 12:52 PM	Wow, I don't even know where to begin. The BBEG for a 3 year running campaign of mine is a vampire....and he's LE. I cannot imagine what thoughts run through a CG vampire cleric's mind. Before I offer advice I must ask...how did this come to pass? Vampire are one of the most heinous creatures in existance. How does your character feed? How does he resist the urge feed on the innocent? As both a vampire and a cleric, what are his standpoints versus undead? Does he feel that not ALL undead are to be immediately destroyed? Surely one is his position would realize that there are some who return from the grave for a noble cause and a just purpose. What about his holy symbol? Does it harm him in any way when in contact with it? Ok I'm done with the badgering... :P For advice, here's what I got: Get used to the night thing. If there was an easy way for vampires to travel at day, you'd see them out during the day all the time. I've heard some on these boards say that if they wear heavy amounts of clothing and masks and hats to keep the sun from their skin they will be ok. It's up to your DM, but I say that's bogus. Again, if that was all they had to do to be able to walk in the sunlight, you'd never see a vampire without 80 layers of clothes on! If you want the other clerics and priests to trust you, prove to them that you are trustworthy. Ask them for a test of willpower. Prove to them (if you can) that your vampiric nature does not control your actions and that you are loyal to both them and their god. Perhaps you could find a way to show them that you can control your bloodlust (again, if you can). Offer a test of your self worth by placing yourself in a room with a small farm animal for a couple days. If you exit from the room, animal unharmed and you not foaming at the mouth for blood, they will see you to not be the bloodthirsty killer they think you to be. If they open the door and there you are, chicken guts in hand, and blood everywhere, they may doubt your control. If you wish to improve your Dominate ability, take the Ability Focus feat in the MM pg. 303 to improve the DC against it. Once you have gained the trust of the living in your town, perhaps then they will assist you in your purchasing of items. Out of curiosity, to what deity is worshipped in this church you're building? Is it the same deity you worship? If not, who do you worship?
q'afuu 10-25-05, 01:06 PM	What non-evil deity will allow you to be a vampire and a cleric of his or her faith? This wouldn't happen in any of my campaigns. My opinion runs along the lines of DRavenhawk's: it's always best to check with your DM first, if you want to play some kind of far-out character concept that will obviously run into problems. I mean, none of the things that cause you problems are all that strange or unexpected. Your CR rating is irrelevant (for what it's worth, it's the CR for your base character + 2 for the vampire template). CRs are for NPCs and monsters. Your level adjustment is +8, so if you have 6 class levels and no racial HD, your ECL is 14. There's two of you? Both good, I assume?
Esponer 10-25-05, 01:36 PM	What non-evil deity will allow you to be a vampire and a cleric of his or her faith? Can he not be a cleric without a god?
q'afuu 10-25-05, 01:46 PM	Can he not be a cleric without a god? Not when I'm DMing. ;) But yes, by the book he can be a cleric without a deity if he wants to. However, he intends to build a church. That's also possible without god, I guess, but the word does kind of imply a place of worship for a deity.
The Ultimate Warriror 10-25-05, 02:42 PM	Wow, I don't even know where to begin. The BBEG for a 3 year running campaign of mine is a vampire....and he's LE. I cannot imagine what thoughts run through a CG vampire cleric's mind. Before I offer advice I must ask...how did this come to pass? Vampire are one of the most heinous creatures in existance. How does your character feed? How does he resist the urge feed on the innocent? As both a vampire and a cleric, what are his standpoints versus undead? Does he feel that not ALL undead are to be immediately destroyed? Surely one is his position would realize that there are some who return from the grave for a noble cause and a just purpose. What about his holy symbol? Does it harm him in any way when in contact with it? Ok I'm done with the badgering... To answer the many many questions.... I am a favored soul now. I want to become a cleric, sorry for the misunderstanding. I drink Sheep's blood or pig blood. I was onced tricked to drinking Human blood, which I now long for more than anything. Frequent will saves(successfully) prevent me from ravaging some innocent bystander. My standpoint versus undead is yet to be discovered. I am wanting to become a Paladin. i kno i kno.... But I still would like to play one, all penalties and consequences noted. I am a vanquisher of evil. I am a relentless killer to those who have done evil, or who i THINK have done evil. I show no mercy. HOWEVER..... I am building the church and petitioning for Paladins to return to the town. Every ounce of money I receive I build homes for the homeless, and I donate the rest to make the Church bigger and better, because certain priests who were helping me, have found out that I am a vampire, they destroy the church, or the foundation, every week. I can't stop them, they are level 20s. They said they will not allow a church to become erect by a vampire.
The Ultimate Warriror 10-25-05, 02:55 PM	There's two of you? Both good, I assume? Yes both of us are good. So if we are both level 6, what CR of monster is appropriate? Because we Fought 40 level 4 NPCs and walked away with no experience points. I don't agree with that. I am not a cleric yet. I am a favored soul. I want to become a Paladin however. I know what I was getting into, but I did not expect it to be this difficult, which leads one to believe that I did NOT know what I was getting into. :)..... i really love this character, and i really love this campaign. Please help....
q'afuu 10-25-05, 03:28 PM	So if we are both level 6, what CR of monster is appropriate? Because we Fought 40 level 4 NPCs and walked away with no experience points. I'm assuming you mean to say you have 6 class levels when you say you both are level 6. With the +8 LA, that makes for two ECL 14 characters, which I'd equate to a party level of 10 (party levels are expressed for 4-PC parties nominally). CR 10 challenges would be appropriate for you. Then again, having only 6 class levels and no Con score means sucky saves and sucky hp, so you're actually quite vulnerable - and there being only two of you only exacerbates that. Ten level 4 NPCs would be an appropriate challenge for you, so 40 of them should definitely have earned you XP, but it does depend a lot on the circumstances. DMs can (and IMO should) adjust CRs (and consequently XP) based on whether the circumstances of the challenge suited the party or not, and if the encounter was built not to be a challenge at all you shouldn't get XP either. Without details, there's no way of telling whether denying you XP for this challenge was justified or not. Btw, I never tell my players the mechanical details of the NPCs or monsters their characters run into. Are you sure of your facts?
The Ultimate Warriror 10-25-05, 04:04 PM	I'm assuming you mean to say you have 6 class levels when you say you both are level 6. With the +8 LA, that makes for two ECL 14 characters, which I'd equate to a party level of 10 (party levels are expressed for 4-PC parties nominally). CR 10 challenges would be appropriate for you. Then again, having only 6 class levels and no Con score means sucky saves and sucky hp, so you're actually quite vulnerable - and there being only two of you only exacerbates that. Ten level 4 NPCs would be an appropriate challenge for you, so 40 of them should definitely have earned you XP, but it does depend a lot on the circumstances. DMs can (and IMO should) adjust CRs (and consequently XP) based on whether the circumstances of the challenge suited the party or not, and if the encounter was built not to be a challenge at all you shouldn't get XP either. Without details, there's no way of telling whether denying you XP for this challenge was justified or not. Btw, I never tell my players the mechanical details of the NPCs or monsters their characters run into. Are you sure of your facts? My DM told us that the NPCs were CR 4s. Yes, we both have 6 character levels each. Also the 40 NPCs were just the beginning. After about 30 rounds, and 30 NPCs dead, a CR 18 Giant comes in, controlled by a CR 20 Monk, and finishes us off. Granted we turn to Gaseous form and go back to our coffin, but we die 4 to 5 times an adventure. Is that normal? I dont like dying... needless to say. And instead of using Magic and Silver damage reduction, he only uses +1 weapons. Also, he equates to monsters of level 5 or higher to be equivalent to having +1 weapons as natural weapons.
dedicated 10-25-05, 04:20 PM	No it's not normal, your DM's just being a jerk
q'afuu 10-25-05, 04:25 PM	Well, if you don't actually get killed it doesn't really count as dying, does it? ;) The Gaseous Form is one of the more powerful vampire abilities. It's to be expected that you have to use it every now and then. +1 weapons are magic, so they do overcome DR/magic. Not silver though, although that might have been the case in 3.0. I don't quite recall. Anyway, it seems like there's lots of issues in this particular game. Not to be patronizing, but I think you'd all (players and DM) be much better off playing a game at lower level, with characters that aren't quite so wierd and without all the houserules. Get a grip on the game before trying all these outlandish things.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-05, 04:29 PM	What non-evil deity will allow you to be a vampire and a cleric of his or her faith? Contrary to populat belief, not all good dieties have 'unforgiving xenophobe' as part of thier portfolio. If the vamp really believes in the god and furthering thier purposes, they should get to be a cleric. Its no different from having an orcish or yaun-ti cleric.
q'afuu 10-25-05, 04:42 PM	Contrary to populat belief, not all good dieties have 'unforgiving xenophobe' as part of thier portfolio. If the vamp really believes in the god and furthering thier purposes, they should get to be a cleric. Its no different from having an orcish or yaun-ti cleric. It is different, in that vampirism is a curse (as is being undead in general, really). Being an orc or yuan-ti is merely genetic. There is nothing inherently wrong with being an orc, but there's definitely something wrong with being undead (if that isn't obvious enough on its own, don't forget that in D&D, creating an undead being is always considered evil). It just seems to me that a deity willing to bestow divine powers on a follower would want to do something about the whole vampirism thing in the first place.
HamHam 10-25-05, 04:53 PM	1) Find a kobold with more than 5 HD. 2) Turn him into a vampire under your control. 3) Have him gain levels and become Pun-Pun. 4) Make your DM cry. 5) Use this as leverage to get him to stop being such an idiot.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-25-05, 05:33 PM	It is different, in that vampirism is a curse (as is being undead in general, really). Being an orc or yuan-ti is merely genetic. There is nothing inherently wrong with being an orc, but there's definitely something wrong with being undead (if that isn't obvious enough on its own, don't forget that in D&D, creating an undead being is always considered evil). It just seems to me that a deity willing to bestow divine powers on a follower would want to do something about the whole vampirism thing in the first place. The act of simply being undead isn't evil.
Ruric 10-25-05, 05:47 PM	Hmm... Well, instead of "Buying" things, you could break into the shops at night, take what you need, and leave payment equivalent to what you took. Or you could leave the town, but since that doesn't seem to be an option, I'd reccomend finding a normal commoner and using dominate on them. They probably don't have high will, so the domination could work. Then dress them up as a cleric and use them as a puppet as you leave town. Eventually, once you become higher level, I'm sure that being a vampire won't matter too much, since you could just miracle your problem away ;) Er, perhaps you could use diplomacy against the clerics? Or disguise? Or bluff? These all seem viable options. PS. Check out my post: "Love conquers all... Even dragons!" It's a good post and it hasn't had even 2 views :( . So please "check it". ;)
q'afuu 10-25-05, 06:47 PM	The act of simply being undead isn't evil. But in 99% of all cases, it does make you so - by the book, becoming undead means becoming evil. It's the extremely rare exception that isn't. Being undead does mean haging on to an existence based on negative energy - in D&D, that's nearly synonymous with 'evil' energy. Being a vampire means suffering from bloodlust. In this case, by admission of the player, the only thing that stands between feeding on another person's blood and not doing so is making a Will save. Being a vampire is an impediment to building a church, apparently the character's main goal in life, because it means he gets hunted down by everyone, especially by other clerics? In short, there is plenty of reason for a deity to take away this burden and no reason at all for the character to wish to remain a vampire. It doesn't even matter if he's evil or not - being a vampire is what's creating problems for the character regardless of his alignment (problems that will be insurmountable eventually, because no-one can hope to never ever fail a will save). Being Good for a vampire, certainly for this one, means wanting not to be a vampire.
00_Whupass 10-25-05, 06:48 PM	Gah, uh uh uh... Wow, where to start? I know this all depends on the DM, and I can only speak from my experiance as a DM and how I would react in my game. One of the guiding conceits in my efforts in game design is "let the hero's be hero's and the monsters be monsters" Hence I would not have allowed Vampire PCs. In point of fact when a character in a game I'm DMing is turned to vampirism I immediately take there sheet and hand them 4d6 and a blank sheet. Ask yourself is your DM trying to tell you that it might be a better Idea to take a more conventional character, or worse punishing you for making this character. While I don't condone such passive aggressive player management techniques, d&d is cooprerative storytelling, which means your vision for your character and your DMs vision for his world need to dovetail and synergize with one another, right now that clearly isn't the case. Were I the DM of a campaign I would seriously consider the "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies" manuever then after a lengthy internal debate would take the more mature route of telling that your characters are severly dischordant to my vision for this world would you be willing to consider something else, or continue playing as a character who will never be accepted by the world. It seems your DM does not belive vampires make suitable PCs, and I must add I agree with him, therefore you should be willing to work with him with the expectation that he will meet you half way and you can have a character which is both fun for you to play and internally coherent with the setting in which he's placed. Theres one more thing I have to comment on which has no bearing on the question of the intial poster, I appologize for the tangent. Ham Ham said: Use this as leverage to get him to stop being such an idiot. I cannot disagree with you more, this is the kind of thinking that really irks me. This falls in the same catagory as every player I see posting on the CO boards asking for a build to help them "punish" thier DM, or DMs who design adventures to "teach their players a lesson", or people who think they can "beat" d&d like it were some video game. As I said above d&d is cooperative storytelling, this means that you and your DM must cooperate to arrive at a cohesion between your character and his world, and if that fails to happen you need to be mature enough to objectively discuss the issue out of character and make a decision to reslove the issue. In character "punishments" don't teach either the player or the DM anything since the connection is not explicitly stated and they'll just resent you for flagrantly violating the cooprerative spirit of d&d by trying to thwart the DM himself, rather than the obstacles the DM puts before your character. By the same token the DM needs to understand that his job is to challenge the PC so that they can grow and succeed, not to thwart there efforts in the world. The DM is not the adversary of the Players but is instead their facilitator, understanding this is essential to creating a mutual respect that fosters a positive and fun gaming environment. Sorry for the rant everybody, but this is one of my pet peeves, please don't allow me to hijack or otherwise derail this thread.
Maraxus 10-25-05, 07:13 PM	The act of simply being undead isn't evil. No, but in the case of the vampire it turns you into a mad monster, that will do evil thinks and this is evil. -I haven’t invented it. In fact, in the campaign before my last was a chaotic neutral vampire, so I am ignoring this rule Vampires=always evil, too. But it is there. I also think that clerics, among all vampires have the greatest potential to be none-evil. Find a goth girl who wants to get sucked by a vampire ( :rolleyes: ) and then cast a (lesser) restoration on her. She get's her kick - you your blood, a perfect symbiosis. Hey, you could even play a total pacifist with that, who calls everybody who eats killed animals a murderer. ;) Other ideas about this thread: -What could be the right CR for monsters also depends on the magic items of the PCs. -Vampires always made the worst PCs, ever. One needs to houserule that. -DMs are stupid. -Every Player gets the DM he deserves. ;) -The problem is not enough co-mu-ni-cation @Warriror (interesting name): Talk with your DM, we can not really help you. Plus, think about that: You, your DM and yourself seam to be quite inexperienced. The best way to end this is play with changing DMs. If you dm a bit, you will see how difficult that is. On the other hand, your present DM will experience how it is to be a player. I suggest long (3 or 4 evenings) single-adventures for that (with always new characters) or a mercenary campaign (everybody has one character and one (the DMs) is always missing. The adventures stand allown but the characters are kept. Here you should watch carefully the wealth per character level-table.). You might also want to find a 4th person for your group. One DM and 3 players is a really good size for roll-playing. PS: @Whupass: In point of fact when a character in a game I'm DMing is turned to vampirism I immediately take there sheet and hand them 4d6 and a blank sheet. That's a bit better then trying to spoil there fun until they want to play something else. But not much. The question is: Why? You say, that monsters should be monsters, but again: Why? In the end it all comes down to: 'What is most fun for the group?' and I think that a vampire character (especially if everybody has one) can be fun. So shutting your ears and singing: "You are a dm-controlled monster now, you can not play that, that's my guiding conceit," does not help. However, I agree with the fact, that HamHam's post is stupid and I say he should best be ignored. :)
Dark Watcher 10-25-05, 07:21 PM	Ditch the DM, and find a Vampire: the Requiem group. Or, alternatively, find a better DM. I suppose you could try and talk to your current DM, but something tells me it isn't going to change anything.
Grug the Just 10-25-05, 08:02 PM	Firstly; Maraxus step off, you're spelling isn't the greatest either you have little qualification to judge on that point. Not to mention, every player doesn't get the DM they deserve. I've had a half-dozen DMs ranging from as terrible as this poor guy's is to something along the lines of a novelist running a brilliant game the likes of which have never been met in my own opinion. (As a note: I don't care how that last bit sounded, his post smacked of rudeness and sarcasm.) Secondly; Your DM seems to be running this game for himself. Some sort of power trip where-in he can thwart you gleefully. If you fought 40, C.R. 4 creatures you should still get X.P. It's the E.L. of the encounter not just C.R. If I were running your game the other priests/clerics, who probably shouldn't all be level 20, wouldn't be always trying to knock down your church because it was erected by a vampire. Actions speak louder than assumed alignments. I would probably throw in some half-crazed holy man that tries to hunt you down now and again as an arch-enemy. Also, you definately shouldn't be dying multiple times in a session, he seems to be screwing up greatly at that rate. It seems he regrets allowing you both to be vampires, but doesn't have the guts to say so out of game. Best option in most cases is to have the group sit down and run through the list of problems. If the game isn't fun, why play it.
Seeker of Undeath 10-25-05, 09:13 PM	How can I effectively play this character? I am playing one now, however no priests or clerics will assist me. They are always trying to turn me. My DM makes sure that they know I am a vampire anyway. I am building a church in this paladin/churchless town, that was ravaged by vampires. I am unable to travel due to security issues during the day, and I am unable to buy things because all of the stores are closed at night. The other vampires are evil and are trying to kill me. And my domination keeps getting saved vs will. I would like to play a Vampire Paladin, however my DM assured me that upon my first thirst, I would lose that status. I need help! I am level 6, so what would my CR rating be versus? It is only two of us in the party and she is level 6 too, also a vampire. Also, I am tired of going into rooms or caves or house where my Gaseous Form immediately stops working. Arghhh....You are level 6 and have a level adjustment (LA) of 8 from vampire. That makes your effective character level (ECL) 14. That means in theory you should be able to handle encounters intended for 14th level characters. Since your partner is only 6th level that'd make your average party level (14+6)/2=10. Your DM is going to throw encounters at you as appropriate for 10th level characters. Well...I hope your DM doesn't...but it would be justified. It sounds like your DM is going to make this hard for you. Most clerics wouldn't want to help you, though I wonder how they know you're a vampire. Perhaps you should be more careful with your identity. I take it you don't wish to be undead. I recommend that you request that one of those clerics slay you and then resurrect you. Thereafter you wouldn't need to be nocturnal and would have the aid and support of the town, hopefully. If on the other hand you want to be a vampire, I recommend you get used to it and toughen up. You and your partner are going to have to make friends who don't mind your new habits, or you'll need to kick a lot of butt and make the town submissive. Perhaps you could take your fight with the other vampires public. If the town witnesses you fighting on their behalf (I mean clearly so. You might need to rescue a child or something super heroic.) they might be willing to offer you minimal attention and aid. I can't figure out why you'd have trouble traveling though. Get a coffin, steal a wagon, and have your partner ride out. It's not super safe, but if you've got to, you've got to. On the up side, your enemies will be dormant while you are. This means that if your partner can transport you during the day and fight off or evade any henchmen, you'll be able to get away pretty well. Now...if I recall the article correctly (Clerics with Class or something like that), a cleric doesn't actually need sleep for spell prep. They simply have to spend that hour of supplication to their deity/whatever. Keeping this in mind, along with the fact that undead don't tire, you could be alert 24/7. You simply can't be out in the sun. If you need to make short treks outside, I'd recommend preparing a few Darkness spells and some version of Devil's Sight (like the warlock's invocation) if you can. Alternately...you could spend your days digging a network of tunnels under the town. :D Getting around sneakily during the day is good. Set up some nice traps, bless things. Generally ward the place against your enemies (and unfortunately yourself). If you can figure out a fun way to lure them to a suitable place...you could try trapping them in a magic circle, open all the windows, etc. and let the sun have them. The fact that you channel negative energy (I know you're good, but you're still a vampire cleric. Sorry bud.) is good for you. You can dump any spell to heal yourself. That said, you're playing the class that is most suited to whooping vampire butt. I've forgotten if you have access to Searing Light or another similar spell of relatively low level, but that's a decent start. Remember also that you can rebuke or command your enemies. Nothin' says lovin' to your DM like controlling his NPCs. You're not so much in a bad spot, but you'll definitely need to prepare for it to get deep. [Edit: I reread your post and noticed your partner is a vampire as well. That changes a lot of my advice, but it does mean you're better able to buff the both of you. In this case...still seek aid in becoming mortal or seek to control the town directly or indirectly. You might become more loved for being the one to protect the people. A town can become used to a person who periodically feeds on an individual but doesn't kill them. The enemy vampires don't sound so benevolent. You might find acceptance as a lesser of two evils and be able to proceed improving your image from there.]
q'afuu 10-26-05, 04:55 AM	You are level 6 and have a level adjustment (LA) of 8 from vampire. That makes your effective character level (ECL) 14. That means in theory you should be able to handle encounters intended for 14th level characters. Since your partner is only 6th level that'd make your average party level (14+6)/2=10. Your DM is going to throw encounters at you as appropriate for 10th level characters. You noticed the other character being a vampire as well already, but your way of figuring out the party level is incorrect as well. Averaging out the different PC levels is pointless when dealing with radically different levels. You'll just end up with challenges that are too touch for the low-end PCs and pathetically easy for the high-end ones. Party levels are given in reference to a 4-PC party. CRs are always given on the assumption that it will be 4 PCs facing the challenge (and 4 PCs that are more or less complementary, no less). The DM should indeed use challenges with rating of CR 10 or thereabouts, but not for the reasons you've given.
HamHam 10-26-05, 08:40 AM	I cannot disagree with you more, this is the kind of thinking that really irks me. This falls in the same catagory as every player I see posting on the CO boards asking for a build to help them "punish" thier DM, or DMs who design adventures to "teach their players a lesson", or people who think they can "beat" d&d like it were some video game. No, it's just a more subtle way of telling him to move over and let someone who is actually competent DM. D&D may be cooperative storytelling, but both players and DMs have their parts to themselves. The DM gets to create the world and NPCs. The Players get to create their characters. IT's that simple. The players don't get to provide input on how the campaign world should be created, and the DM doesn't get to tell his players what characters they can or cannot play. This includes telling them not to play evil, not to play monster races, and so forth. Any DM that puts restrictions like this on the players is, imho, a bad DM and a rather unimaginitive one. And this is also a pet peeve of mine.
q'afuu 10-26-05, 11:25 AM	The players don't get to provide input on how the campaign world should be created, and the DM doesn't get to tell his players what characters they can or cannot play. This includes telling them not to play evil, not to play monster races, and so forth. If the players can't handle playing evil PCs or deal with the problems monstrous characters should run into all the time, telling them they shouldn't is the best thing a DM can do. If they won't listen to good advice, simply disallowing it is the next best thing. Also, often enough there mixed ideas about such subjects in a group. Better to avoid hard feelings when things go sour by not allowing them to happen in the first place than to risk the enjoyment of part of the group.