Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 01-19-05, 12:43 AM	You know, I was avoiding this one for a while, since... well... I'll refrain from giving my opinion on this particular person this time, and just focus on what he wrote: Winning Ways: A sorcerer needs to have a high Charisma score because that ability governs his spellcasting. But a high Charisma score also gives him an edge in negotiations.Yes, because the Sorcerer has to buy Diplomacy as a Cross Class skill, and has a whopping 2 skillpoints per level. If you're relying on your party's Sorcerer to do your talking, you might be in some serious trouble. Fair Weapon Selection: The sorcerer is proficient only with simple weaponry. Though simple weapons aren't the most deadly ones available, the fact that the sorcerer has access to the whole category gives him more options than most other arcane spellcasters have. That versatility can be a lifesaver if his spells happen to fail him.Low Hit Points: The sorcerer's 4-sided Hit Dice give him very few hit points. Poor Attack Bonus: A sorcerer's base attack bonus is +1 per two sorcerer levels, which is the worst in the game. Some sorcerers can dish out lots of damage with their spells, but they don't do well with weapons.Because of your low hit points and poor Armor Class, you are among your party's most vulnerable members. So make sure that you have a good place in the party's marching order -- preferably in the middle, so that at least one ally always stands between you and your foes.Hey, yeah, that wide range of weapons can be a lifesaver! Except that you have no hitpoints, you can't hit the broad side of a barn, and if it ever comes to the point you have to USE a melee weapon, you might as well start rolling up a new character. Gotcha, those extra 2 weapons that are actually worth using is a huge benefit there. And really, most other arcane casters? There's only 2 other core arcane casters. The wizard, and the bard, and the Bard is BETTER at weapons than the sorcerer is. So what, the Sorcerer is better than half of other arcane spellcasters, not most...It might seem like a fun idea to become a "fire sorcerer," but when a red dragon (or some other creature that's immune to fire) comes along, you'll wish you hadn't limited yourself so much.Ah, I see. Playing a themed character = bad. Sticking to a generic build = good. Please, no one said you had to be able to own everything that moves in this game. So what if you're a fire sorcerer and you're going up against a red dragon? You're not at top form, but you'll slaughter white dragons. Its a trade off.Melee Weapon: You're not much good in melee, but you never know when you'll have to resort to hand-to-hand combat. Thus, you should carry a good melee weapon so that you're not defenseless when your spells run out or fail. A spear deals good damage and can also prove useful in probing surfaces for unseen dangers. A longspear has reach and can help keep foes a little farther away from you.Yeah, a longspear is also a martial weapon, which the Sorcerer does not get access to. Might as well say a greatsword or a spiked chain is a good option too, they cost him the same thing to get, a weapon prof feat. You'll also notice he didn't hit on one of the Sorcerer's greatest strengths, the ability to use Metamagic on the fly. Well, he did get those metamagic rods made core so the Wizards can do that too now. Scratch that. If anything, this article sounds more like how to make the sorcerer the most bland, unenjoyable class in the game. Gotta appreciate Skips special brand of love for the Sorcerer...
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-19-05, 12:55 AM	Heh. I notice a lack of mention of the screwed spell progression and metamagic.
Arcane Guyver 01-19-05, 12:57 AM	:rofl: I'm surprised it took this long for somebody to post about this article. It does have a neat way of laying bare the fundamental problems inherent in the sorcerer. :clap:
Kintara 01-19-05, 01:04 AM	Heh. I notice a lack of mention of the screwed spell progression and metamagic.There's nothing wrong with metamagic and sorcerers. It's even more useful for them than Wizards. The only hitch is Quicken Spell.
Arcane Guyver 01-19-05, 01:05 AM	Hate to double post like this, but I noticed a problem here: ...Though simple weapons aren't the most deadly ones available, the fact that the sorcerer has access to the whole category gives him more options than most other arcane spellcasters have. Actually, the only arcane caster without full simple weapon proficiency is the Wizard. The Warlock and the Bard both spank the Sorcerer in this regard, and the Warmage's armor and HD would make me more confident sending them into melee.
mercurywyrm 01-19-05, 01:17 AM	I was wondering when someone would post about this. On top of encouraging BLASTING spells as the main spells for your sorc he goes on to reccomend a crapload of weapons you can't use! :P A sorc only needs a few blasting spells, probably just magic missile and something like chain lightning or delayed blast fireball to deal with large numbers of enemies and maybe disintigrate for all those single tough foes with low touch AC and poor fort saves... Other elements are better not covered, in favor of having utility spells like dispell magic, fly, improved inisibility, and Greater Teleport. The notes on the sorcerer's advantages he gives are both few and far bettween and are mostly redundant when compared to most other classes who also get a majority of what the sorc gets. Oooh, the sorc gets spontaneous casting, good will saves, nice social ability, and proficiency with all simple weapons! You fail, the bard gets all that and more, and if the sorcerer goes with Skip's spell selections the bard will outdo the sorcerer 9 times out of 10. Skip, think before you type something, give us some reasons to play sorcerer over a bard, LOW LEVEL ones, so no talking about 9th level spells. I can assure you, facinate and countersong and low level healing spells beat blasting on a caster most of the time, add on better HP, saves, fighting ability, and low level area buffs that only affect allies as well as essentially legend lore for free at will and skill points that are better than a monk, druid, or barbarian and we have a winner. Bards even get access to some of the best spells a spontaneous caster can use, the main illusions and curative spells. Let the fighter deal with the hordes of little guys who seem to be the only thing vulnerable to blasting spells with whirlwind attack and great cleave, the bard will make him better at doing so too! Oh, and BTW, the bard can shut down your sorc with his countersong or silence spell if you don't have silent metamagic and higher level spell slots to prepare all your spells in. WHAT is that? You got engaged in melee by the bard's friends and can't afford your full round action to silence AND you don't have higher level spell slots as soon as the wizard who happens to have a rod of silence and quickdraw? Skip has been PWN3D! :coolcthul
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-19-05, 01:18 AM	There's nothing wrong with metamagic and sorcerers. It's even more useful for them than Wizards. The only hitch is Quicken Spell. Yeah, one of the only core metas worth the levels is nothing...
mercurywyrm 01-19-05, 01:19 AM	I just noticed that all Skip's advice tends to apply better to Warmage than Sorc! :P
Kintara 01-19-05, 01:35 AM	Yeah, one of the only core metas worth the levels is nothing...Stilled and Silent spells become much more useful when you can do them on the fly. Maximize and Empower are useful. Non-core metamagic feats like Energy Substitution are extremely useful. Enlarge and Extend aren't all that impressive to me, but I think there are plenty of metamagic feats that are worth it.
Jell_Moo 01-19-05, 01:38 AM	Not to nitpick, but a Longspear is in fact a simple weapon. Other than that, I pretty much agree. Useless article.
Nani? 01-19-05, 04:52 AM	What would be nice if WoTC would publish un "unoffical" upgarade, much like the "unoffical" upgrade of half elves (skilled half elves) in some "optional" book, the equivilent of UA2 and watch as everyone turn away from the Sorcerer in droves and start using the "optional" Sorcerers the way everyone I know (exept one hard core UA hater) uses the "skilled" half elf version. Of course in a way they've already done this with the Warlock, but instead of trusting us to role play they enforced a C**ppy dark origin theory on that class. They've also come up with the Draconic feats to "encourage" the draconic angle on sorcerers or to perhaps throw some slop to the complainers. Right now I suspect it's a matter of Skip/WoTC not wanting to dare admit they SCREWED UP on the class design. Right now I'm debating whether I want to us DoA's or the Composite Sorcerer fix, or a few of my own ideas. All the best, Nani?
JayF 01-19-05, 05:55 AM	Endymnion, I must admit that I don't know what the author wanted to do when he wrote this article. The sorcerer is a nice class to play and deserved a better analysis than the one given there. Maybe we just all missed our saves vs his confusion spell !!
Ra-Tiel 01-19-05, 05:58 AM	@Edymnion: Perfect post!! :clap: :clap: :clap: --- What would be nice if WoTC would publish un "unoffical" upgarade, much like the "unoffical" upgrade of half elves (skilled half elves) in some "optional" book, the equivilent of UA2 and watch as everyone turn away from the Sorcerer in droves and start using the "optional" Sorcerers the way everyone I know (exept one hard core UA hater) uses the "skilled" half elf version. Of course in a way they've already done this with the Warlock, but instead of trusting us to role play they enforced a C**ppy dark origin theory on that class. They've also come up with the Draconic feats to "encourage" the draconic angle on sorcerers or to perhaps throw some slop to the complainers. Right now I suspect it's a matter of Skip/WoTC not wanting to dare admit they SCREWED UP on the class design. Right now I'm debating whether I want to us DoA's or the Composite Sorcerer fix, or a few of my own ideas. All the best, Nani? :clap: :clap: :clap: I've played a sorcerer only once, and it really su**ed! --- And to the author of the article: I've seen *WAY* better articles (both more meaningful and useful) in recent issues of Dragon magazine. For example a comprehensive spell list. And this list even suggested spells like (*gasp!*) Shadow Evocation/Conjuration to expand your versatality, and also "utility spells" like the afore mentioned greater teleport. Just repeating the *obvious* from the PHb and commenting it without giving any really useful advice is not a good way to write an article. If I had done this my English finals (remember: I'm living in Germany) I would have gotten "0 of 15 points"!
Nyferto 01-19-05, 07:26 AM	You know, I was avoiding this one for a while, since... well... I'll refrain from giving my opinion on this particular person this time, and just focus on what he wrote: Don't forget Andy Collins Yes, because the Sorcerer has to buy Diplomacy as a Cross Class skill, and has a whopping 2 skillpoints per level. If you're relying on your party's Sorcerer to do your talking, you might be in some serious trouble. And they don't need many others, their high Cha and synergy bonuses matched with spells like hypnotise can actually make them very effective, you should actually try it sometime. Hey, yeah, that wide range of weapons can be a lifesaver! Except that you have no hitpoints, you can't hit the broad side of a barn, and if it ever comes to the point you have to USE a melee weapon, you might as well start rolling up a new character. Gotcha, those extra 2 weapons that are actually worth using is a huge benefit there. And really, most other arcane casters? It certainly makes a difference with Polymorph and other spells, it certainly helps when you can use darts and slings it certainly helps with multiclassing. If you are forced to be in a non spell situation, it's certainly useful. Would you rather have a long spear and get an AOO with a Spell Storing Longspear, or throw a dagger instead of a halfspear? There's only 2 other core arcane casters. The wizard, and the bard, and the Bard is BETTER at weapons than the sorcerer is. So what, the Sorcerer is better than half of other arcane spellcasters, not most...Ah, I see. Playing a themed character = bad. Sticking to a generic build = good. Please, no one said you had to be able to own everything that moves in this game. So what if you're a fire sorcerer and you're going up against a red dragon? You're not at top form, but you'll slaughter white dragons. Its a trade off.Yeah, a longspear is also a martial weapon, which the Sorcerer does not get access to. Might as well say a greatsword or a spiked chain is a good option too, they cost him the same thing to get, a weapon prof feat. What do Bards have to do with anything? They aren't full casters and their other abilities don't always apply. He doesn't say a themed character is bad, he says an over themed and constrained characters can be a bad choice - and it is. It might be fun to play a Fire Sorc, but why would a person limit themselves to Fire spells to the expense of anything else including Lightning? He's more discouraging bad RP through ignorance of the characters reality (why would an intelligent person stick by bad choices?). You'll also notice he didn't hit on one of the Sorcerer's greatest strengths, the ability to use Metamagic on the fly. Well, he did get those metamagic rods made core so the Wizards can do that too now. Scratch that. The strength is nice, but not always applicable, and probably more complex than he could cover in such a simple article. If anything, this article sounds more like how to make the sorcerer the most bland, unenjoyable class in the game. Gotta appreciate Skips special brand of love for the Sorcerer... So you missed his advice on generically useful spells over one shot spells or spells that may not apply all the time? Good advice when a Sorc tries to replace a Wizard. Of course a Sorc trying to play to a theme of magic is nothing to do with a Wizard at all, because Sorcs have the magical background to try such a thing. Beyond the schools, there's little to a Fire Wizard's background beyond liking them. Given the general tone of the articles, and their focus on new players, it was a fair article that pointed out the less obvious pitfalls and explained what the strengths were. -- I've played a Sorc 4 times, and each time has been great. I seriously think you people should perhaps just try harder and think more latterally about things before you judge. The decreased spell aquisition hardly hurts at all and everything else is a minor advantage and paired with limitations. I've never seen a Wizard so completely outclass anyone that they were made obsolete. Then again I've only had 1 campaign with a Sorc and a Wizard in it.
Jell_Moo 01-19-05, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by Nyferto And they don't need many others, their high Cha and synergy bonuses matched with spells like hypnotise can actually make them very effective, you should actually try it sometime. High Cha works ok at low levels. However, as you level, skill ranks completely trump the high stat bonus. And it's hard to make skill synergy work well when dealing with cross class skills. It takes a very long time. As for spells like Hypnotize, they work ok at best. At low levels, using a spell for a social situation isn't always the best choice, considering the limited amount of spells per day. And if you use such a spell with verbal/somatic components, it becomes pretty obvious what you are doing, and many folk aren't going to appreciate it. It certainly makes a difference with Polymorph and other spells, it certainly helps when you can use darts and slings it certainly helps with multiclassing. If you are forced to be in a non spell situation, it's certainly useful. Would you rather have a long spear and get an AOO with a Spell Storing Longspear, or throw a dagger instead of a halfspear? It certainly makes a difference with Polymorph and other spells, it certainly helps when you can use darts and slings it certainly helps with multiclassing. If you are forced to be in a non spell situation, it's certainly useful. Would you rather have a long spear and get an AOO with a Spell Storing Longspear, or throw a dagger instead of a halfspear? Darts and Slings < Crossbow. Sorcerors and Wizards generally have a low strength score, so using a weapon that could have a penalty attached isn't all that great. Add in the superior range of the crossbow... I actually agree a bit about the Longspear though. I find the weapon quite useful at low levels for playing a game of keep away. AoOs at low level are great. Come higher level though, the advantage vanishes. What do Bards have to do with anything? They aren't full casters and their other abilities don't always apply. He doesn't say a themed character is bad, he says an over themed and constrained characters can be a bad choice - and it is. It might be fun to play a Fire Sorc, but why would a person limit themselves to Fire spells to the expense of anything else including Lightning? He's more discouraging bad RP through ignorance of the characters reality (why would an intelligent person stick by bad choices?). Bards apply as they are Arcane Casters. Quite capable ones at that. And I would argu that they could be considered full casters since their class level = their caster level. As for themes, I kinda agree with you. Limiting yourself to fire spells is a bad choice. Of course, limiting yourself to blaster spells is a bad choice too... On the subject of metamagic... The strength is nice, but not always applicable, and probably more complex than he could cover in such a simple article. It is a core strength of the Sorceror, and it goes untouched. It doesn't even require much explanation... The sorceror excels at metamagic. As a spontaneous caster, he can use metamagic on the fly, and adapt to situations as needed. Need to quietly teleport away? A Silenced Teleport works great. Bound or Grapple? Used a Stilled spell to escape. By not having to prepare their metamagic spells ahead of time, the sorceror can adapt much more quickly than his wizard counterpart. The fact that it goes unmentioned is just plain wrong. Given the general tone of the articles, and their focus on new players, it was a fair article that pointed out the less obvious pitfalls and explained what the strengths were. The problem is that it doesn't tell you anything. Anybody who's read the Sorceror write up in the PHB knows all of this and more. Anybody who has no knowledge of D&D won't recognize half the terms being used and the article won't help them. Who is it being written for then? If the article had explained metamagic a bit, how the sorceror can benefit from it, explained good and bad spell selection, and maybe gave a few pointers on the sorceror's role in the party, it could have worked. But like all the other articles in the series, in does not do that.
Anacrad 01-19-05, 11:03 AM	Frankly, I think both sides of the issue are correct....Pardon my fence sitting posture. :) Generally, the extra weapons seem more like a band-aid benefit, than a benefit, with the exception of the Longspear, which allows the Sorcerer to "aid" the real fighter-types from a point of relative safety. However, combat isn't going to happen effectively, and if you're that desparate, you're either better off running or you're virtually dead. Granted, Polymorph can help you with physical limitations, but BAB is still particularly restrictive. Really, other than the Longspear, the variety of available weapons given by this "benefit" isn't that important to a non-combatant. You could really say that the difference is availability of d8 damage melee weapons vs d6 for the wizard, but then that BAB plays heavily into offsetting this advantage (in that, if you can't hit, you can't take advantage of it). Next, the generic sorcerer is a bit flat and uninspired without the special blood feats and such. Limitations of feats, spells known, Skill points and Hit points often make the Sorcerer more predictable on paper without role-playing, so you almost have to start out inspired on your own. I personnally think a little "specialization" is good in this respect, as has been pointed out, but it's tough early due to the limitations of character and survivability. I do think they missed the boat with "Diplomacy" in the class, but the charisma based skills are very viable compared to most classes. I also think that the article missed the meta-magic point, but oops, we're all human I guess. As a side note, I think that Heighten Spell is virtually a necessity for a sorcerer with their limited spell selection. So, the article probably could have been better, but it also helps newcomers who can get overwhelmed by the PH.
Edymnion 01-19-05, 11:13 AM	And they don't need many others, their high Cha and synergy bonuses matched with spells like hypnotise can actually make them very effective, you should actually try it sometime.Actually, I believe I was the first person on the boards to come up with "How a lvl 1 Sorcerer with Hypnotise can take over the world"... Seriously, that spell, with enough time and castings, can be the most absolutely broken thing you've ever seen. But that applies just as much to Wizards casting it as Sorcerers, so thats not the point.What do Bards have to do with anything?They are an arcane caster class. They have all the weapon profs that the Sorcerer does, and more. The point is that the Sorcerer does not have better weapon selection than most other arcane casters, it is actually worse than half of the other arcane spellcasters in the PHB. He doesn't say a themed character is bad, he says an over themed and constrained characters can be a bad choice - and it is. It might be fun to play a Fire Sorc, but why would a person limit themselves to Fire spells to the expense of anything else including Lightning? He's more discouraging bad RP through ignorance of the characters reality (why would an intelligent person stick by bad choices?).Yes, he is badmouthing themed casters. He didn't say "Taking only fire spells is bad", he said playing a fire sorcerer is bad. I happen to currently play an elementally themed sorceress, based on thunder and lightning, and she's by far more enjoyable than the generic sorcerers I've played in the past. I mean, he's basically saying that anyone that has an Elemental Savant sorcerer is an idiot. Yes, you do lose out on a bit of flexibility by not being able to pick and choose the most appropriate element for the monster, but played the way he suggests, it sounds more like a video game. Rule number one for this game, make an enjoyable character, THEN make the mechanics work, not the other way around.So you missed his advice on generically useful spells over one shot spells or spells that may not apply all the time? Good advice when a Sorc tries to replace a Wizard.No, what he actually said about that is common sense and readily apparent to anyone that has looked at the Sorcerer. You get so few spells, of course you are going to milk every last effect you can from them. Of course, 3.5's nerfing of utility magic makes that damned hard these days...Given the general tone of the articles, and their focus on new players, it was a fair article that pointed out the less obvious pitfalls and explained what the strengths were.Except that he didn't give the real strengths of the class, and the weaknesses are so painfully obvious to anyone thats even skimmed the class would have seen. Low hitpoints, low skillpoints, bad BAB. He didn't go into anything that wasn't spelled out word for word in the PHB.I've played a Sorc 4 times, and each time has been great. I seriously think you people should perhaps just try harder and think more latterally about things before you judge. The decreased spell aquisition hardly hurts at all and everything else is a minor advantage and paired with limitations.I've been playing my Sorceress for over two straight years now, thanks.I've never seen a Wizard so completely outclass anyone that they were made obsolete. Then again I've only had 1 campaign with a Sorc and a Wizard in it.Yes, you've obviously never been in a campaign where the Wizard made use of his Scribe Scroll feat. With minimum downtime, he can have scrolls of his utility magic, memorize attack magic, and be MORE flexible than the sorcerer. Throw in those damnable metamagic rods, and he's better at casting magic all the way around than the Sorcerer is. He just takes a little more forethought for any given encounter, and seeing as how he can actually afford to learn divination magic, that shouldn't be too hard.
detectevil 01-19-05, 11:30 AM	Heh. I am dying to play my new Sorcerer with class, spending as many points as I can in Diplomacy, Bluff and Gather Information, staying away from combat while swinging my simple Morning Star. That should rock.
Tony Vargas 01-19-05, 01:05 PM	If you're relying on your party's Sorcerer to do your talking, you might be in some serious trouble. At least the typical power-gamed sorcerer has a positive modifier to his Diplomacy (in spite of having no ranks in it). Unless you have a bard or a paladin, that's probably the best check in the group - because everyone else dumped CHA, in addition to putting no ranks in it. :rolleyes: Plus, while Diplomacy is cross-class, Bluff isn't, and 5 ranks in it gives you synergy in several skills (and Bluff doesn't take a minimum of 10 rounds to use). Hey, yeah, that wide range of weapons can be a lifesaver! It's minor, but it can make a small difference. Longspears, for instance, give you reach that can make some opponents hesitate to close with you, and spears & shortspears rival martial weapons in overall effectiveness. Still the very best weapon for a low-level arcane caster - the light crossbow - is available to all. if it ever comes to the point you have to USE a melee weapon, you might as well start rolling up a new character. Not true. Even in the best-run party, the arcanist might occassionally find himself in melee. It should be rare, but when it does happen, maybe doing d8 piercing-bludgeoning instead of d4 piercing-slashing will make a real difference. The point is that the Sorcerer does not have better weapon selection than most other arcane casters, it is actually worse than half of the other arcane spellcasters in the PHB. I guess it depends on how common bards, sorcerers and wizards are. In play, you generally see more wizards than bards, which'd make them the 'majority.' FWIW. Playing a themed character = bad. Sticking to a generic build = good. Please, no one said you had to be able to own everything that moves in this game. So what if you're a fire sorcerer and you're going up against a red dragon? I have to agree. One of the charming things about the design of the sorcerer class is that it's ideal for picking and sticking to a 'theme.' And, as someone who's played a 'fire sorcerer,' I can say you're not likely to be worthless against the red dragon - not when you can cast Protection from Elements (Fire) for the whole party on short notice. Yeah, a longspear is also a martial weapon, which the Sorcerer does not get access to. It was moved to the simple weapon list in 3.5 - freakishly, it was also taken off the druid's list. So, now, sorcerer and clerics can use longspears but druids can't. :rolleyes: You'll also notice he didn't hit on one of the Sorcerer's greatest strengths, the ability to use Metamagic on the fly. That'd be a conspicuous omission. Metamagic is the sorcerer's best friend. If anything, this article sounds more like how to make the sorcerer the most bland, unenjoyable class in the game. Gotta appreciate Skips special brand of love for the Sorcerer... Y'know, this whole sorcerer-persecution complex thing is getting kinda old...
Ra-Tiel 01-19-05, 02:50 PM	Er.. didn't I get something, or can't you use reach weapons against adjectant foes? That might be exactly the reason to go into melee with the long-spear wielding sorcerer instead of staying away from him.
Aricandor 01-19-05, 03:23 PM	Yes, but in order to get to the adjacent square you'd have to provoke an AOO. Not that it's something you should fear at higher levels, but at a low level, it should be enough to make the enemy think twice. If he uses 5ft-steps to close he'll stay in your longspear area (out of his own reach) and you can blast the opponent with a spell. This doesn't apply at all times, of course. At high levels, AOOs from a puny caster hardly matter, and many monsters have a reach longer than your spear.
Edymnion 01-19-05, 03:41 PM	It was moved to the simple weapon list in 3.5 - freakishly, it was also taken off the druid's list. So, now, sorcerer and clerics can use longspears but druids can't. :rolleyes:Blasted 3.5, I'm still finding things it couldn't keep it's grubby little hands out of... Okay, so the longspear point is retracted.
Nyferto 01-20-05, 08:05 AM	No offence JellMoo, but I'll stick to responding to Edy for now. Actually, I believe I was the first person on the boards to come up with "How a lvl 1 Sorcerer with Hypnotise can take over the world"... Strangely, that's one of the first things I did. I don't know if you're criticising Sorcs or Skip. Just remember, Andy Collins has his name next to the Sage articles as well. I'll have to check back issues of Dragon to see if it was him who came up with the TWF + THW tactics. Seriously, that spell, with enough time and castings, can be the most absolutely broken thing you've ever seen. But that applies just as much to Wizards casting it as Sorcerers, so thats not the point.They are an arcane caster class. Sorcs use it better because they can manipulate people with it, they can also use it freely with Still and Silent. They have all the weapon profs that the Sorcerer does, and more. The point is that the Sorcerer does not have better weapon selection than most other arcane casters, it is actually worse than half of the other arcane spellcasters in the PHB. But it's better than one, and not as good as another who isn't a full on caster. Yes, he is badmouthing themed casters. He didn't say "Taking only fire spells is bad", he said playing a fire sorcerer is bad. I happen to currently play an elementally themed sorceress, based on thunder and lightning, and she's by far more enjoyable than the generic sorcerers I've played in the past. I mean, he's basically saying that anyone that has an Elemental Savant sorcerer is an idiot. Yes, you do lose out on a bit of flexibility by not being able to pick and choose the most appropriate element for the monster, but played the way he suggests, it sounds more like a video game. He's not bad mouthing all themed casters, but a very specific ideal. It's a RP trap, you do things on behalf of a character that they normally wouldn't given their stats. Ultimately he doesn't say much beyond - stay flexible. Which can equate to sticking to a general theme, but not so absolutely that it ends you. He uses an obvious simple example to explain that theory. As I said, it's good advice for new players. Rule number one for this game, make an enjoyable character, THEN make the mechanics work, not the other way around.No, what he actually said about that is common sense and readily apparent to anyone that has looked at the Sorcerer. You get so few spells, of course you are going to milk every last effect you can from them. Of course, 3.5's nerfing of utility magic makes that damned hard these days...Except that he didn't give the real strengths of the class, and the weaknesses are so painfully obvious to anyone thats even skimmed the class would have seen. Low hitpoints, low skillpoints, bad BAB. He didn't go into anything that wasn't spelled out word for word in the PHB. It doesn't say anything to sticking to utility spells. People still make pure blaster Sorcs, people still think the Warmage eciplses the Sorc so absolutely, people still make mistakes inspite of what you claim is obvious and in the PHB. Perhaps they've only read the SRD or just don't get the point, but it's certainly not obvious. Yes, you've obviously never been in a campaign where the Wizard made use of his Scribe Scroll feat. With minimum downtime, he can have scrolls of his utility magic, memorize attack magic, and be MORE flexible than the sorcerer. Throw in those damnable metamagic rods, and he's better at casting magic all the way around than the Sorcerer is. He just takes a little more forethought for any given encounter, and seeing as how he can actually afford to learn divination magic, that shouldn't be too hard. Or maybe our DM understood that items gained through crafting still count against your expected wealth per level, or maybe I used scrolls to craft staves or kept a bunch of scrolls with me, etc. Wizards don't have that much of an advantage in the Meta Rod front, Divination spells are overated and it'd be far better to not rely on simple divined information and be someone who can adapt to the situation. Side note, IIRC - Druids can't use Crossbows, though I'm not sure if there's a penalty (beyond none proficiency) if they try it. Longspear, Expertise, Improved Feint (Can it still be used at any range?), Ray spells. Other than that - Enlarge person or just Polymorph would help. The flexability of Wizards during each day is overated. The amount of effort they need to put in are so insecure it's a wonder people think they can do it all effortlessly all the time.
Edymnion 01-20-05, 10:23 AM	I don't know if you're criticising Sorcs or Skip.Whoever wrote this article, for as far as this thread goes. And a bit on Skip for a poor design on the class to start with. Sorcs use it better because they can manipulate people with it, they can also use it freely with Still and Silent.And a wizard can do it just as easily. Know what you're going to do that day, prepare nothing but Hypno, and apply the Still/Silent metamagics when you prepare. There, you can cast 'em just as well as the Sorcerer. And since the wizard gets free metamagic anyway, it actually puts him a leg up. Only downside he has is that the Sorcerer can do it more times per day, unless the wizard makes scrolls. Or maybe our DM understood that items gained through crafting still count against your expected wealth per levelYes, crafted scrolls do count against your character wealth. However, once you use them, they're no longer counting against your wealth. You don't fall behind the general curve for making scrolls. In fact, since you're spending less money to make them than to buy them, you're ahead of the curve. Wizards don't have that much of an advantage in the Meta Rod frontExcept that it essentially gives them spontaneous metamagic when they need it, which steps on the Sorcerer's toes something awful, while the Sorcerer still gets stuck spending a full round action to use them, which means the rods, especially a Rod of Quicken, is still worthless to them. They help the Wizard FAR more than they do the Sorcerer. Divination spells are overated and it'd be far better to not rely on simple divined informationExcept when you know you're going somewhere, and you can use Divination spells to know what the embedded defenses are. If the baddy has fire traps all over his place, I don't think he's going to exactly be rotating them every couple days just to screw with the Diviners... The flexability of Wizards during each day is overated. The amount of effort they need to put in are so insecure it's a wonder people think they can do it all effortlessly all the time.Its not effortlessly. It takes a LOT of work, but if done right, the Wizard can never be caught unprepared, they can always be prepared for whats coming, and even when they aren't, a smart wizard is going to have scrolls and wands of spells that they would likely need in a pinch (the adventuring wizard that keeps scrolls of Knock handy, for example, so they don't have to memorize them in dangerous situations, meaning they can pepare attack spells instead). With enough time to prepare, and a smart player, the Wizard can out-flex the Sorcerer every single time.
Draco Strang 01-20-05, 10:37 AM	The wizard, and the bard, and the Bard is BETTER at weapons than the sorcerer is. So what, the Sorcerer is better than half of other arcane spellcasters, not most...Ah, I see. Yea, but who plays a bard? Honestly......... :D
ClementWillowbreaker 01-20-05, 10:43 AM	My group as a gnome bard that does better in all respects of combat than the party sorcerer, and he is specifically built for social interaction, with massive amounts of gold wasted on cantrip gloves and expensive clothing, rather than actual adventurering gear. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can't compete at all in any regard, even though he is optimized for battle, and half the enemies are immune to the mind-affected spells of the bard. This is at lvl6.
Battousai 01-20-05, 12:48 PM	Right now, the sorcerer has disappeared from my campaign. I made the Battlesorcerer the new "core" sorcerer. Sure it's got less spells , but at least now it differs from the wizard , and I think it's a little more powerful.
Tony Vargas 01-20-05, 01:26 PM	Its not effortlessly. It takes a LOT of work, but if done right, the Wizard can never be caught unprepared, they can always be prepared for whats coming. That's just nuts. Seriously, if you're in a campaign where that statement is true, you're in a campaign that radically favors prepped casters in general, and wizards in particular - maybe because the DM is inexperienced or afraid of hurting players' feelings or just likes to feature magic prominently at the expense of any other character concepts. D&D spells are so potent precisely because they're not always available (limitted use), and aren't always the right ones (memorization in the old days, 'prep' now). If you never feel those limitations, then you enjoy an unwarranted and imbalancing degree of power. I don't want to say "you're not playing the game right," but, that style of play does go beyond what the published core rules can handle well.
Merlion 01-20-05, 01:38 PM	I agree totally. The article basicly highlighted the total lack of mechanical reasons to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard, and made almost no mention of their few strengths. Supported the sterotype of the Sorcerer as the "blaster", and then basically tells you that as a spellcaster focusing on a single theme is mechanically a bad idea (which is true, but is also a weakness of the system as a whole). Its just like how the Classes with Class article on the Cleric spelled out all the massive strengths and total lack of weaknesses of that class. And people think we're crazy when we say the Sorcerer needs a boost (or at least something to make him something other than a sub-par wizard) :confused:
Merlion 01-20-05, 01:45 PM	That's just nuts. Seriously, if you're in a campaign where that statement is true, you're in a campaign that radically favors prepped casters in general, and wizards in particular - maybe because the DM is inexperienced or afraid of hurting players' feelings or just likes to feature magic prominently at the expense of any other character concepts. D&D spells are so potent precisely because they're not always available (limitted use), and aren't always the right ones (memorization in the old days, 'prep' now). If you never feel those limitations, then you enjoy an unwarranted and imbalancing degree of power. I don't want to say "you're not playing the game right," but, that style of play does go beyond what the published core rules can handle well. I think he was exaggerating a bit. But its beside the point, because even the basics of the rules make Wizards better prepared for most things than Sorcerers to a large degree. The versatility of spontaneous casting is pretty much negated by their incredibly limited spells known. And Wizards do get, and can use, Scribe Scroll for free, so between items and prepared spells, the Wizard is less likely to be caught with his pants down. The other big advantage of the Wizard in that area is this: A Sorcerers spell's known are both very limited, and almost totally static. In the case of situations that arent super time senstive, even if the Wizard doesnt have a needed spell prepared, he probably knows it and can simply wait till the next day and prepare it. I mean sheesh, the 3.5 PH comes right out and says a party with a Sorcerer should probably have another caster to compensate for the Sorcerer's lack of versatility. That should tell us something.
Tony Vargas 01-20-05, 02:23 PM	the basics of the rules make Wizards better prepared for most things than Sorcerers to a large degree. The preparedness of a wizard is up to the player. You can prep for a variety of things, in which case you prep about as many different spells as a sorcerer knows (and probably a lot of them are the same spells), and can use each one /once/. Or, you can prep for something very specific, and if you come up against anything else, you're going to seriously underperform. That's just the way prepped casting is balanced - tremendous strategic flexibility balanced by total lack of tactical flexibility - it requires the player to gauge risk/reward and makes the success of the character very dependent on foreknowledge of challenges. The versatility of spontaneous casting is pretty much negated by their incredibly limited spells known. Not negated, balanced. A sorcerer knows a range of spells comparagble to what another caster could have memorized. He doesn't get to change them every day, but he gets to cast more of them, and to cast them in whatever proportion works best. That gives the sorcerer a lot of tactical flexiblity, but little flexibility on the strategic horizon. And Wizards do get, and can use, Scribe Scroll for free, Which means they get to 'buy' scrolls of spells that they could cast anyway, at half price. That helps make up for thier need to fund thier spellbook in the first place, but it doesn't make them tremendouly more flexible than a sorcerer with no spellbook and scrolls bought at market price. so between items and prepared spells, the Wizard is less likely to be caught with his pants down. Not compared to the sorcerer. The sorcerer is pants-up at all times. ;) The wizard can be caught with the wrong spells prepped, the sorcerer can't be - he can find himself in a situation where most of his known spells aren't very useful, but, as long as /one/ known spell is of some use, he can just cast that spell repeatedly (maybe empowered or something if it's low level). In the case of situations that arent super time senstive, even if the Wizard doesnt have a needed spell prepared, he probably knows it and can simply wait till the next day and prepare it. Yes, the wizard is flexible beyond an 8hr time horizon. A lot of challenges, though, give you rounds or minutes to work with, not hours.
Merlion 01-20-05, 03:17 PM	The preparedness of a wizard is up to the player In the case of each specfic wizard, in each specfic campaign, yea. But we dont have time to cover all those here. Which is why in these discussions, we use the mechanical abilities of the classes as a base. The nature of the mechanics of a wizard, allow him to be more prepared, for more situations. Potentialy. Wether a certain player uses that potential or not is irrelevent. A sorcerer knows a range of spells comparagble to what another caster could have memorized :confused: Say what? A 5th level Sorcerer knows 0 3rd level spells. A 5th level wizard can prepare (assuming an deccent Int) 2 3rd level spells. That same 5th level Sorcerer knows 2 second level spells. That same Wizard can prepare 3. A 6th level Sorcerer knows 1 3rd level spell. A 6th level wizard, with deccent Int, can prepare 3. A 10th level Sorcerer's spells known are 5/5/4/3/2 A 10th level Wizards spells prepared is going to be something like: 6/6/4/4/3 I guess you could call that "comparable". But it doesnt compare very favorably. Especially because a Sorcerers spells known represent the only spells he can ever cast himself (except the ocasional swapping every few levels). So yea, I'm sorry...I consider the flexibility of spontaneous casting mostly negated. His just gaining one kind of flexibility, and losing another. He breaks even, at best. The wizard can be caught with the wrong spells prepped, the sorcerer can't be No...he can just find himself caught with the wrong spell known, period, which he cannot change save through level advancement. long as /one/ known spell is of some use, he can just cast that spell repeatedly (maybe empowered or something if it's low level). The only time this is going to come up, is in combat. If the Sorcerer's spells are mostly fire, but your fighting a red dragon, he can still use magic missile. Or whatever similiar. But if faced with a locked door, and you dont know Knock, your screwed. Whereas, the wizard probably does know it, and may have it prepared. And if he doesnt he can either prep it the next day, or more likely has already made a supply of Knock scrolls for just such an emergency (the Sorcerer could have such a scroll as well, but then, so could the Fighter. But the Wizard is more likely to, since he can make em cheaper).
Daevaron 01-20-05, 03:55 PM	Seriously, that article was funny... in a sad kind of way. Even I can do better! Hell, I'm going to start on a Sorcerer's Handbook, just because of his article (that, and the lack of one already in the CO forum :p).
Tony Vargas 01-20-05, 04:01 PM	The nature of the mechanics of a wizard, allow him to be more prepared, for more situations. Potentialy. Wether a certain player uses that potential or not is irrelevent. The problem is that what a wizard migh 'potentially' be able to prepare for, and what actually happens are two very different things. Wizard players often find themselves wishing they'd prepared thier spells differently because they /could/ have picked as spell that'd've been better for the situation they find themselves in. That's not exactly a good thing. I guess you could call that "comparable". But it doesnt compare very favorably. Yeah, it's comparable, not identical. The sorcerer gets more spells of each level, but fewer known - the prepped caster gets fewer spells in total, but, if he chooses all different spells, he has a little more variety - at first. Different, yet balanced. So yea, I'm sorry...I consider the flexibility of spontaneous casting mostly negated. His just gaining one kind of flexibility, and losing another. He breaks even, at best. You're just wrong, it's not negated, in fact, it's a huge advantage even with a very short list of known spells - with a list of known spells like a wizard's, it'd be wildly overpowered. Yes, it's 'breaking even' compared to prepped casting - that's game balance in action. No...he can just find himself caught with the wrong spell known, period, which he cannot change save through level advancement. The sorcerer has all his spells known available as long as he has one of his highest-level slots left, so it's pretty rare that he'll find himself with /no/ spell that he can use in a given situation. Thus 'pants up' prettymuch all the time. A prepped caster, OTOH, can easily prepare a specialized slate of spells for a specific challenge - and then face a different challenge than he expected; OR, prepare a general slate of spells, use one, then find he needs to use it again, and it's gone. That's getting 'caught with your pants down.' But if faced with a locked door, and you dont know Knock, your screwed. Doors don't stand up well to lightning bolts, for instance. A sorcerer might end up forced to make inefficient use of his spells - casting Invisibility on each party member individually instead of casting the 'mass' version, lightning bolting or disentegrating a door instead of knocking it, etc - but, he does have a lot of daily spells to waste... Whereas, the wizard probably does know it, and more likely has already made a supply of Knock scrolls for just such an emergency (the Sorcerer could have such a scroll as well. But the Wizard is more likely to, since he can make em cheaper). I wouldn't be so sure that 12.5 gp + exp (plus the one-time cost of scribing the spell in the first place) vs 25 gp makes /that/ big a difference. Though, it does get very campaign-dependent. Some campaigns provide relatively little downtime but easy access to the secondary 'magic item market' durring the brief respites 'in town' between adventures, while others give tons of downtime and little access to NPC item makers/brokers.
mercurywyrm 01-20-05, 04:28 PM	The sorceror excels at metamagic. As a spontaneous caster, he can use metamagic on the fly, and adapt to situations as needed. Need to quietly teleport away? A Silenced Teleport works great. Bound or Grapple? Used a Stilled spell to escape. By not having to prepare their metamagic spells ahead of time, the sorceror can adapt much more quickly than his wizard counterpart. Uh... NO! You can't cast spells that take more than a stadard action in a grapple. So no stilled spells in grapple for the sorcerer. Wizard could have his stilled spells cast in grapple, but not sorc. And as for silenced teleport, casting that doesn't usually work, full round spells mean any attacks in that round, even attacks that are not attacks of opportunity, force you to make a concentration check for the damage delt or lose the spell. They have 1 more round to kill you in, and if you need a silenced teleport, you don't have a round, or even half a round in most cases I have seen. On top of this, our friend the bard who is better at nearly everything Skip mentions about the sorcerer's benifits, over the sorcerer, is capable of casting silence. Oh, and I forgot to mention, since you have to cast as a full round they can also dispell or counterspell at any time in the round, even without having planned to before. There is a reason I personally avoid the Summon Monster spells like the plauge, it is because they last for a miniscule amount of time and take a full round to cast. I only really see invisible casters get them off regularly. Horar for sorcerers, who can't use still, silence, or quicken effectively!
Jell_Moo 01-20-05, 04:51 PM	Uh... NO! You can't cast spells that take more than a stadard action in a grapple. So no stilled spells in grapple for the sorcerer. Wizard could have his stilled spells cast in grapple, but not sorc. You are, of course, correct here. My bad. There are ways around that, but they are non-core, so I won't mention em. And as for silenced teleport, casting that doesn't usually work, full round spells mean any attacks in that round, even attacks that are not attacks of opportunity, force you to make a concentration check for the damage delt or lose the spell. This one I don't buy into. A Stilled/Silenced Teleport is perfect for those cases where the party is taken prisoner. And using a full round action to cast a spell is meaningless. So you cannot move and cast in the same round. Not a big deal. Casting when you have no adjacent foes is a non issue. Using the utility meta feats (like Still, Silent etc...) are bread and butter for a sorceror. Being able to use those feats on the fly is amazing. ve 1 more round to kill you in, and if you need a silenced teleport, you don't have a round, or even half a round in most cases I have seen. On top of this, our friend the bard who is better at nearly everything Skip mentions about the sorcerer's benifits, over the sorcerer, is capable of casting silence. I'm not entirely sure what you mean? If I read you correctly, I think you are making the mistake of thinking that the spell goes off the next round. That is not the case. It simply takes up both the move and standard action of the sorceror, but still goes off that very turn. Sometimes casting Silence just doesn't cut it. Sometimes you need the very next spell you cast to be silent. The Bard does that just as well as the sorceror too. I forgot to mention, since you have to cast as a full round they can also dispell or counterspell at any time in the round, even without having planned to before. Unless they've readied the action... Using full round metamagic means you lose your move action. That's pretty much it. s a reason I personally avoid the Summon Monster spells like the plauge, it is because they last for a miniscule amount of time and take a full round to cast. I only really see invisible casters get them off regularly. The mechanic for Summon Monster and Sorceror Metamagic are different. Summon Monster happens next round, Spontaneous Metamagic happens the same round.
Tony Vargas 01-20-05, 04:59 PM	Oh, and I forgot to mention, since you have to cast as a full round they can also dispell or counterspell at any time in the round, even without having planned to before. There is a reason I personally avoid the Summon Monster spells like the plauge, it is because they last for a miniscule amount of time and take a full round to cast. I only really see invisible casters get them off regularly. Common misconception, but that's not how spontaneous metamagic works - the spells become a full-round action, but not full-round casting time spells, they're completed on your action, you just can't perform a MEA the same round. No interruptions by other characters taking thier actions on thier initiatives. It's an inconvenience, but not crippling, an minor balancing factor on the rather substantial advantage of spontaneous metamagic.
mercurywyrm 01-20-05, 05:06 PM	This one I don't buy into. A Stilled/Silenced Teleport is perfect for those cases where the party is taken prisoner. And using a full round action to cast a spell is meaningless. So you cannot move and cast in the same round. Not a big deal. Casting when you have no adjacent foes is a non issue. Using the utility meta feats (like Still, Silent etc...) are bread and butter for a sorceror. Being able to use those feats on the fly is amazing. I'm not entirely sure what you mean? If I read you correctly, I think you are making the mistake of thinking that the spell goes off the next round. That is not the case. It simply takes up both the move and standard action of the sorceror, but still goes off that very turn. Sometimes casting Silence just doesn't cut it. Sometimes you need the very next spell you cast to be silent. The Bard does that just as well as the sorceror too. Unless they've readied the action... Using full round metamagic means you lose your move action. That's pretty much it. The mechanic for Summon Monster and Sorceror Metamagic are different. Summon Monster happens next round, Spontaneous Metamagic happens the same round. Could you quote me some SRD there?! I was sure that a FULL ROUND action ment that you spent the entire round doing it after or before your five foot step and that for actions such as spellcasting or certain skill uses someone could attack you during your action and when you take damage before the end of the round it requires you to make a concentration check to still do the action, the exception being a full attack action, which costs a full round action but happens during your turn.
Tony Vargas 01-20-05, 05:16 PM	SRD 3.5: Feats: Metamagic Feats: Sorcerers & Bards: "If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)"
TheDarkestOfAngels 01-20-05, 10:22 PM	Whoever wrote this article, for as far as this thread goes. And a bit on Skip for a poor design on the class to start with. Mr. Williams is the one who thought up the class. But, if I remember correctly, I believe that honor goes to Jonathon Tweet, who was the one that actually designed the class whereas Skip is the one who though it up and "laid out the basic parameters." And since the wizard gets free metamagic anyway, it actually puts him a leg up. Only downside he has is that the Sorcerer can do it more times per day, unless the wizard makes scrolls. if by "free" you mean that they get four extra feats that they can spend on metamagic feats, then yes. Though that hardly makes wizards better at actually using them in any given situation. Quite the opposite, in fact. Oh, yes. And then there's scribe scroll, which not only has numberous disadvantages in regards to caster level and especially save DC, but it also costs coin and garners experience loss - it has its own costs to balance it out which tends to never result in them being able to "make up" for anything. Not any more than what the sorcerer could do at a magic shop, anyway (which has no xp or time costs.) These costs, of course, also have to be moderated against spellbook expansion and other items. Therefore, no, the wizard doesn't have it more times per day. Maybe for one or two days, but not "per day." Yes, crafted scrolls do count against your character wealth. However, once you use them, they're no longer counting against your wealth. once you spend the money - that money is spent. You don't get the money back. You might get more money at a later time, but the fact that you spent money to aquire and use that scroll counts against how much money you can have as a character of your level and higher. The only difference between one-shot items and permanent items is that you keep the permanent items and one-shots are only useful once, but their relationship to character wealth remains the same. You don't fall behind the general curve for making scrolls. In fact, since you're spending less money to make them than to buy them, you're ahead of the curve. of course, being marginally ahead at this curve is saddled with other costs that bring the caster behind in other curves. Except that it essentially gives them spontaneous metamagic when they need it, in a very, very limited and costly way. They help the Wizard FAR more than they do the Sorcerer. the only metamagic rod that's more useful to wizards over the sorcerer is the quicken spell rod, which is very expensive. Therefore, this is overexaggerating it quite a bit. Except when you know you're going somewhere, and you can use Divination spells to know what the embedded defenses are. this is assuming that you have the required divinations, the time to cast these divinations, the foreknowledge to make these divinations work properly, and assuming that the divinations work as per the spell description and also assuming that there's no outside interference. Even then, sorcerers still have access to said divinations and plenty of room to make use for them and take the time and effort in equal portions to prepare to minimize the danger that these obstacles face. The only advantage that a wizard gets in this regard is that they'll be able to make their prepared spell list specifically tailored to encounter this. Though sorcerers can even use other methods to make equal levels of preparation. Even if its by bying off equipment, items, or help from an NPC. Therefore, use of divinations is not only sorcerer-accessable, but is also never a wizard-only advantage, nor is it somethings that wizards are especially better at employing over sorcerers. Its not effortlessly. It takes a LOT of work, but if done right, the Wizard can never be caught unprepared, The same can be said about any class. The wizard gets no special advantage here. they can always be prepared for whats coming, and even when they aren't, a smart wizard is going to have scrolls and wands of spells that they would likely need in a pinch (the adventuring wizard that keeps scrolls of Knock handy, for example, so they don't have to memorize them in dangerous situations, meaning they can pepare attack spells instead). again, as can a sorcerer. a smart sorcerer is also able to have items to help out in areas where the sorcerer's spells known isn't going to help or will allow more prodigious use of more specific spells known in a particular area. Of course, again, once those scrolls and wands are used up, they don't come back. Even if they're using scrolls just to make up for their nonspontaneity disadvantage vs. sorcerers, that gap becomes increasingly large every time a wizard has to use one - whereas a sorcerer can easily get by without them due to their increased spells per day and spontaneous casting from their entire known spells list. With enough time to prepare, and a smart player, the Wizard can out-flex the Sorcerer every single time. With enough time to prepare and a smart player, the sorcerer can out-flex the wizard every single time. of course, you can replace "wizard" and "sorcerer" with any two classes and be right.
solbergb 01-20-05, 11:02 PM	I was wondering when someone would post about this. On top of encouraging BLASTING spells as the main spells for your sorc he goes on to reccomend a crapload of weapons you can't use! :P A sorc only needs a few blasting spells, probably just magic missile and something like chain lightning or delayed blast fireball to deal with large numbers of enemies and maybe disintigrate for all those single tough foes with low touch AC and poor fort saves... Other elements are better not covered, in favor of having utility spells like dispell magic, fly, improved inisibility, and Greater Teleport. Yeah. Skip is a fine writer but is weak on mechanics, especially character building. His wizard article wasn't any better (recommending you waste precious feats on things like TOUGHNESS!) A sorcerer needs spells in every category (direct damage, battlefield control, mobility, utility and scouting), and does best if most are multipurpose. Dispel Magic is a good example, it is an offensive debuff against buffed people, a defensive spell against enemy spells that have landed, it springs or removes magical traps and it has a variety of targeting options that can be expanded with metamagic. It's also good for removing non-dismissable spells that YOU cast which are littering the battlefield, perhaps preventing aid to downed comrades or taking of prisoners. The true power of sorcerer is that every spell option he has is available as long as he has a single top level spell slot. This is why sorcerers have metamagic restrictions, metamagic really is very good with spontaneous magic. That power is wasted if you load up on similar and/or single-purpose spells and if you don't choose your metamagic to complement your spells. Skip mentioned this in passing, but really should have spent half the article on this topic. It is the single most common mistake that leads to "my sorcerer is inflexible and sucks" stories, and that's just sad. Until you have about 6 spells known (yes, level 5-6), you can't have spells in all categories and will benefit a lot from low level spell scrolls or alchemical stuff to fill in gaps. Skip got that right, at least. Just like with a wizard, the sorcerer is pretty weak in the low levels if he doesn't buy or have access to consumables. Without the spellbook monkey on his back, the low level sorc can usually afford plenty of consumables, even without crafting his own scrolls. At Level 6+ you should have enough spells known, slots and metamagic to do a pretty amazing variety of things. Your "spells on tap" will generally exceed those of the wizard by a factor of 2 or even 3, not so much because of the slots but because of the fact that no slot is ever wasted, and the "2nd best spell" can be cast over and over, as long as it remains useful.
solbergb 01-21-05, 12:02 AM	:confused: Say what? A 5th level Sorcerer knows 0 3rd level spells. A 5th level wizard can prepare (assuming an deccent Int) 2 3rd level spells. That same 5th level Sorcerer knows 2 second level spells. That same Wizard can prepare 3. True enough. Actually the worst level for sorc is L3, where he is behind in slots and in spells. However, lets look at what is actually available for each character at level 5, which is close to the nadir of their flexibility: Wizard: 2xL3 spell 3xL2 spell 4xL1 spell 4xL0 spell Generally not enough slots to do a lot of "free slots" but lets say he has one L1 slot and one L2 slot free. At any given time, he can cast a total of 11 combinations of spells, if he has 15 minutes he can choose 2 more combinations from his entire spellbook. If any of the 11 he chose aren't useful, his total "available slots" go down. The sorcerer, lets say he has 1 metamagic feat at +1. L0-6 slots, 6 cantrip choices L1 7 slots, 3xL1 spell and 6 metamagicked cantrips L2 5 slots, 1xL2 spell, and 2xmetamagicked L1 spells In reality, some of the cantrips and L1 spells won't be suitable for the metamagic feat so lets cut that down a little: L0-6 slots, 6 cantrip choices L1 7 slots, 3xL1 spell and 3 metamagicked cantrips L2 5 slots, 1xL2 spell, and 1xmetamagicked L1 spells He can cast 13 different spells, same as the wizard. However it is fair to say that he has only 5 "top tier" spells, the non-cantrips. The wizard by contrast has 9 "top tier" spell choices. For each spell you duplicate though, on the wizard side, drop his top-tier spell options. However...the sorcerer can cast his 4 top-tier spells 12 times, in whichever combination is most useful. That's essentially the same as what a wizard can do (and at 6th level, with another metamagic feat, a higher level slot to metamagic the L2 spells and another spell known, the flexibility explodes) Now...4 spells doesn't sound like much but there really are only about 6 categories of spells, period, that a low level caster might need. Here's some popular choices: direct damage (usually magic missile) Battlefield control (web, grease) save/ray or XXX (color spray, glitterdust, tasha's laughter, ray of enfeeblement) defense or mobility (false life, alter self, spider climb, xp retreat...I actually hate mage armor or shield on a sorcerer, they're too limited, and it is too early for mirror image compared to the other options) buffing spells (enlarge, attribute boosters) More powerful utility (unseen servant, tenser's disk, shatter, invisibility) Divination gets added later, but L5 wizards tend to not do a whole lot of that beyond cantrips. Can you honestly say that these two spell mixes are that far apart? 7 castings of: magic missile, enlarge, grease 4 castings of: glitterdust, levitate, enlarged magic missile, enlarged grease, enlarged enlarge Compared to: L1: magic missile, enlarge, grease, <open> L2: glitterdust, false life <open> L3: Fireball, Haste In the first fight, the wizard has "better" boom, yes. Lets look at the second fight (assume a 4 round battle where glitterdust was decisive but direct damage was useful) 4 castings of: magic missile, enlarge, grease 3 castings of: glitterdust, levitate, enlarged magic missile, enlarged grease, enlarged enlarge Compared to: (one less spell used because fireball hurt more people) L1: enlarge, grease, magic missile (rememorized from open slot) L2: false life (running), glitterdust (memmed from open slot) L3: Haste Who's more flexible? Still pretty close. Lets do one more fight, enlarging the BDF and hasting the party in the wiz party, doing two enlarges in the other party, levitate needed to get out of trouble, false life used up, grease used in both parties (another 4 round fight) 1 castings of: magic missile, enlarge, grease 2 castings of: glitterdust, levitate, enlarged magic missile, enlarged grease, enlarged enlarge Compared to: (one less spell used because fireball hurt more people) L1: magic missile L2: glitterdust (memmed from open slot) Something interesting here. The wiz is down to only 2 spell options, and 2 slots. The sorc has 3 slots, but still his full set of options. But..the wiz can choose MORE SPELLS? Well yeah. He could choose an orthoganal spell mix instead of the similar one shown here. But he only gets one action a round, just like the sorc at level 5. So he'll burn slots at the same rate, and the difference is (absent enough open slots to restock and time to do it) he loses flexibility with each spell cast. What if one of the above fights was vs Shadows? The sorc could unload his entire rack in magic missiles, the wiz has only one force spell prepared. What if a 2000lb object needed to be moved. The sorc could cast levitate 4 times on 4 objects underneath it and move it. The wiz, with his entire spellbook, has no such option. At level 6, give the above sorcerer a decent L3 spell such as haste, and metamagic that complements his spells, such as heighten and his options get even larger compared to the wiz....at any moment in time. A 10th level Sorcerer's spells known are 5/5/4/3/2 A 10th level Wizards spells prepared is going to be something like: 6/6/4/4/3 I guess you could call that "comparable". But it doesnt compare very favorably. Especially because a Sorcerers spells known represent the only spells he can ever cast himself (except the ocasional swapping every few levels). Add a couple metamagic feats and suddenly the sorcerer's list of useful spells known explodes. I think I worked out something like 80 useful spell combinations possible AT ALL TIMES with my force sorceress around level 10, and that is without heighten spell. That's the flexibility. A wiz has 23, maybe 30 with rods and pearls of power and whatnot, and the number goes down with each spell he casts. The number of spells and combinations he can put into those 23-30 slots is larger than 80, yes, usually, with metamagic, a wizard can do maybe 200. But he can only do a tenth of it at any given time, less if he's been busy casting spells. No...he can just find himself caught with the wrong spell known, period, which he cannot change save through level advancement. That's not how it works. There are no "wrong" spells known. There are only situations that none of the current spells known address. The only time this is going to come up, is in combat. If the Sorcerer's spells are mostly fire, but your fighting a red dragon, he can still use magic missile. Or whatever similiar. But if faced with a locked door, and you dont know Knock, your screwed. Not really. He might instead know Shatter. Or Dispel Magic (for wizard locked or held doors), Or shadow evocation, if the door isn't too heavy (duplicating shatter). Or Sonic Orb. Or heck even fireball (it'll blow down the door eventually if it isn't mad of stone or iron). He might know fabricate (make the door into a chair), he might know stone shape. He might just dim-door the whole party past the door, going back to get the ones he missed because he can cast the bloody thing 3 times and still have plenty of spell slots. He might just convince the BDF to knock down the door. I'll give a harder example. We need to get the rogue 120' up to a spire which can't be climbed, not even with spider climb (it's got a permanent grease effect or something). Wizard would usually cast fly or levitate after spending 15 minutes with his book. (levitate the wiz and have him carry the rogue, since levitate has a severe range limit) Sorcerer doesn't have fly or levitate in spells known. Here are some things he might do: Multiple walls of stone with handholds. Wall of ice or web might also work. stacked tenser's discs (this is very complex, and only works if a tensers disk filled with water counts as a "surface"...DM's vary) overland flight or sudden fly (personal spells) to simply carry the rogue up (maybe with enlarge person or reduce person) Dimension door the rogue over the spire, use solid fog to slow the fall enough that the rogue can search/disable/pick the trap as he falls 5' a round past it. Feather fall is also recommended here :) Conjure something that can fly and can lift the rogue. telekenese the rogue up there. Dim door over the spire and cast ottiluke's sphere on the rogue as he falls next to the spire (feather fall and 60' above spire is needed). He can study the mechanism until the sphere wears off. Disabling it might be difficult, but he'll have minutes to think about it and knows your spells. Enlarged animated rope. Multiple rope trick spells disintegrate (or similar) the spire and bring the thing down to you. charm a monster and make it carry the rogue. cast polymorph cast reduce person on the rogue, share enlarge person on the hawk familiar (with the familiar as the target) and have the hawk carry him up there. enough unseen servants to lift the rogue (cast the spell rogue weight/20 times, less if you know reduce person). Given the short range of this spell, you'll need Enlarge Spell at a minimum and might need to cast enough to lift yourself too. By level 10, you have a lot of options. No sorcerer can do all of the above, but he can probably do SOMETHING with his 80 spell+metamagic combinations, all on tap multiple times when that helps. Style doesn't matter, results do. Whereas, the wizard probably does know it, and may have it prepared. And if he doesnt he can either prep it the next day, or more likely has already made a supply of Knock scrolls for just such an emergency (the Sorcerer could have such a scroll as well, but then, so could the Fighter. But the Wizard is more likely to, since he can make em cheaper). Sorcerer will usually not bother with a scroll of something as specialized as Knock, because he can almost always do it some other way. He'll choose a scroll to cover something he can't do AT ALL (divination or water breathing perhaps)...and even then only if the party divine caster can't do it. At low levels, with many gaps in spells known, the sorc will make heavy use of scrolls yeah, but at 25gp a pop I can buy 4 for every spell level scribed into a spellbook.
Nyferto 01-21-05, 12:40 PM	Just a quick note. Even if you get a scroll for cheap, the full base price goes against your treasure. Even if you use it, it's still counted against you. Otherwise you could throw away all your gear each level and get your full on quota in your next level for free. It doesn't really mean much when you consider wands and staves. You can't break the curve, because it applies to everything you've ever owned or gained.
solbergb 01-21-05, 01:46 PM	Yeah, I play in Living Greyhawk, where every gold piece spent on consumables can NEVER be recovered later in play by a generous GM. It's a place where mordenkeinen's disjunction is more feared than most options that merely kill or cripple a character. Both wizards and sorcerers do better by purchasing and using consumables than by sticking entirely to permanent items. In levels 1-6 it is pretty cruicial in order to have them be a contributing member of the party unless you waste feats on archery stuff (only good if you intend to be a ray specialist). In level 6-12, having a wand to fall back on when your slots run dry is pretty worthwile for a wizard. Sorcerers might have a low level wand or two to fill gaps in their spell selection. I play with low level arcanists that fit the reputation of "weak" and I pull with those that pull their weight just as well as the fighter does...the difference is the consumables, and casting a spell (or perhaps using alchy equipment) each and every round....rather than pretending you're an archer with a crossbow and no feats. The amount of cash you spend on scrolls in that timeframe plus one decent wand is, at that time, a significant portion of your resources. Looking back from level 12 though, it's a pittance compared to your total cash then. Which means "saving" your low level cash and then not being useful is false economy. You know you have the right balance of consumables for your campaign when you never have to get out a melee or missile weapon to contribute, where you can cast or do something helpful every round, but you also can work just off your spells in your head most of the time. Your consumables should be carefully chosen...useful enough to be worth a "combat action", not so expensive that you'll fail to use them for fear of losing money every battle, and in the case of wands, useful for the next 3-6 levels.
Votan 01-21-05, 03:00 PM	High Cha works ok at low levels. However, as you level, skill ranks completely trump the high stat bonus. And it's hard to make skill synergy work well when dealing with cross class skills. It takes a very long time. As for spells like Hypnotize, they work ok at best. At low levels, using a spell for a social situation isn't always the best choice, considering the limited amount of spells per day. And if you use such a spell with verbal/somatic components, it becomes pretty obvious what you are doing, and many folk aren't going to appreciate it. And let us not forget that the Bard, the competitor to this strategy, not only gets skill ranks but he gets the spell Glibness as well. Hypnotize is a nice spell, Glibness is flat out amazing.
mercurywyrm 01-21-05, 03:11 PM	Just a quick note. Even if you get a scroll for cheap, the full base price goes against your treasure. Even if you use it, it's still counted against you. Otherwise you could throw away all your gear each level and get your full on quota in your next level for free. It doesn't really mean much when you consider wands and staves. You can't break the curve, because it applies to everything you've ever owned or gained. Actually, as a side note, I have noticed, especially in the CO boards, that people do not use as much expendable resources as they are supposed to. Wands, staffs, scrolls, and potions are supposed to be about 25% of your wealth, however, I usually see people only get about 10%. The wealth charts in the DMG and the treasure given by the adverage encounter is supposed to make up for the use of expendable resources in that encounter in addition to helping you follow the expected curve of wealth. What I have learned however is that wizards have far more controll after a single level up in game, over what kind of expendable resources they have, whereas sorcerers have to rely on what they come accross. Advantage, wizard, mostly due to the fact they can craft items on their own. Because they also can learn new spells from any scrolls they discover they also have an advantage there whereas a sorcerer uses a scroll of a spell they don't know and it is gone. Finally, I understand the concept of a wizard becoming less versitile as a day goes by. This IS true, however, that reduction in versitility doesn't matter if they still use up all their spells and use them all in optimal situations for that spell. Sure a wizard might not be able to use fireball against every group of enemies in a day, but if the wizard still helps to kill those enemies in an effective way, say, hasting the party, or summoning a big critter to bash them up, the loss of versitility doesn't matter. In short, as long as a wizard doesn't end up sitting around wasting rounds in total defense with spells prepared the sorcerer's increased versitilty towards the end of the day doesn't matter, because it is balanced out by the fact that the sorcerer just has less versitility in general, and doesn't get enough extra spells per day or enough benifits from spontaenous casting to make up for it. The cases where the sorcerer does benifit from the "increased versitility at the end of the day" have yet to show me a wizard who is inteligently prepared. Wizards are all about inteligence, and sure a sorcerer is much better in the hands of someone with an adverage IQ, the smarter a player the better a wizard becomes over the sorcerer. True, smarts and wizard divinations don't tell you everything, but you only need to have versitle enough spells that they can still be used even if the exact situation you wanted doesn't crop up. A wizard can simply duplicate a sorcerer's spell list of spells known and have about 2 extra slots or so for repeat spells or spells that sorcerers don't know. If they still use their spells effectively the whole day through, and the sorcerer runs into a single situation where they needed a spell they don't have or would have benifited from having a higher level spell known, which only the wizard has, the wizard has the advantage. Sure, you could make a total suck wizard or sorcerer, but unlike the sorcerer who knows bad spells, if the wizard knows bad spells he won't know them again tomorrow, and will become a better wizard. I have yet to see inteligent players of a wizard or a sorcerer ever be in a round of combat and not cast an effective spell. However, I have seen many cases out of combat where a wizard did something that most sorcerers wouldn't be able to do without being innefetive in combat and a poor sorcerer because of how rarely what the wizard did comes up. Let us pretend the party is going into an ancient and decrepit temple, the wizard casts a divination or two to look in, and finds 1/2 of the different monsters hiding in the temple as well as several sections that have difficult obstacles. The wizard then prepares appropriate spells for those obstacles and those creatures (probably mostly spells that are still benificial no matter the creature, such as haste, fly(good to get the fighters to the fliers or to aviod the grounded guys), magic missile, etc.) and spends the rest generically. The sorcerer has only generic spells and can't get past the obstacles as efficiently in many cases, and will probably not be able to gain much at all from divving into the temple, if they even do have divvining spells. Sure the sorcerer might do better against that undetected paper golem with his scorching rays, but I have a feeling that it won't help the party out as much as the wizard using passwall on the wall that happens to have a nifty tresure room blocked off by a cavein somewhere else, while near the begging of the exploration. (even better than passwall would probably be rope trick if you let certain munchkinny things happen with it's opening being placed centered on a wall and coming out either side of the wall...) Wizards can prepare for something, sorcerers have to rely on dealing with everything ever with what they have, which they may have till the end of the day, but that doesn't mean that it is as effective as say, having the Knowledge (religion) to know what element that deamon is weak to. :cool: My final meh, is that I find that the people who can prepare their wizards properly can make better sorcerers for the people who can't play a wizard worth copper. :P :twocents:
Jell_Moo 01-21-05, 03:39 PM	And let us not forget that the Bard, the competitor to this strategy, not only gets skill ranks but he gets the spell Glibness as well. Hypnotize is a nice spell, Glibness is flat out amazing. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that when it comes to getting people to do what you want, the Bard trumps both the Wizard and Sorceror. Glibness alone is phenemonal, and then you touch upon Bardic Music and a slew of skill points and great social class skills. Well... unless it's a Divine Bard, in which case despair and hopelessness ensue. ;) --- Somehow, this thread kinda morphed into a Sorceror vs Wizard debate... Why does that always happen? At any rate, my to cents on that is that if well played, the Sorceror is just as viable. He might not be *quite* as powerful as the Wizard at high level, but his versatility is great. Good spell selection is key for either class, one at alevel ups, and one day to day. For my money, I prefer the Sorceror simply because I can pick a good enough spell list that I'll have something useful for just about any situation. It isn't always the perfect spell, but with a little creativity, I can make it work. The advanatage of not having to think ahead every day is too good for me not to pass up. For example, in my current game, which is atypical in it's own right, the sessions can get pretty unpredictable. We might go a session without a single battle, only next game to have fight after fight after fight. If our party had an arcane caster (don't ask, it's a painful story), I for one would 110% prefer to have a sorceror with us. Because the game is so unpredictable, and changes so much, preparing your spells every day is next to impossible. If on a day that turns into one battle after another, the wizard only has 3 offensive spells memorized, things could get bad. Maybe the Sorceror only knows Magic Missile and Scorching Ray as Offensive spells, but at least he can spam those out until the cows come home. In a perfect, everything runs like the book, 4 encounters per day, plenty of down time, by the book money world, the Wizard will shine. However, in my... let's see... 17+ years of gaming, I have never seen such a thing. Neither class is better or worse, they are just different. One plans level by level, the other plans day by day.
TheDarkestOfAngels 01-21-05, 04:04 PM	Actually, as a side note, I have noticed, especially in the CO boards, that people do not use as much expendable resources as they are supposed to. What works in the CO boards and what works in actual gameplay are two completely different things. Don't compare the two because they can't be compared. Wands, staffs, scrolls, and potions are supposed to be about 25% of your wealth, however, I usually see people only get about 10%. The wealth charts in the DMG and the treasure given by the adverage encounter is supposed to make up for the use of expendable resources in that encounter in addition to helping you follow the expected curve of wealth. And sorcerers have that same accessability, in addition to not requiring costs in certain other things. For example, wizards might need to spend money for wants just to have a specfic spell they'll need often - whereas a sorcerer normally has the stamina to personally be able to cast a spell or set of spells enough times to not require it. In any case, spending cash on expendable resources is still spending money on expendable resources and it doesn't cost any differently whether the wealth charts give a little extra to compensate or not. Both classes have equal access to that same accessability (and much of those costs do have to do to spellbook maintainance, costly material components - some of which might help in the cost for resurrections, restorations, and anything that comes up for the wizard in their adventuring career in such a fashion that requires cash from their pocket.) What all this means is that your above statement is irrelevant. What I have learned however is that wizards have far more controll after a single level up in game, over what kind of expendable resources they have, whereas sorcerers have to rely on what they come accross. Advantage, wizard, mostly due to the fact they can craft items on their own. Because they also can learn new spells from any scrolls they discover they also have an advantage there whereas a sorcerer uses a scroll of a spell they don't know and it is gone. No. Wizards can indeed make their own items, but this comes at a steep cost. (which actually means that their level up comes a level later than when it's supposed to.) But it doesn't give them any more control over their own "level up" than what sorcerers get from buying from a shop or keeping useful items that they found. In fact, sorcerers can do both of those without either the xp expendature or the expendature of time required in order to aquire those items. Finally, I understand the concept of a wizard becoming less versitile as a day goes by. This IS true, however, that reduction in versitility doesn't matter if they still use up all their spells and use them all in optimal situations for that spell. Sure a wizard might not be able to use fireball against every group of enemies in a day, but if the wizard still helps to kill those enemies in an effective way, say, hasting the party, or summoning a big critter to bash them up, the loss of versitility doesn't matter. Oh? The much vaunted versitility that pro-wizard people like to point out as making wizards "hands down" superior to the sorcerer is their large spell list and its uses, despite being heaviliy limited because of a wizard's method of preparation AND because wizards can only prepare a comparitively smaller portion of their spell lists. Therefore, it IS a big deal because not only, on a day-to-day basis does the wizard's versitility as far as having different sorts of spells prepared only somewhat larger (though still comparitive to what the sorcerer has as spells known) than what sorcerers have as spells known, but that number decreases every single time a wizard casts a prepared spell. In addition, that versitility also decreases every time a wizard prepares the same spell with multiple spell slots. Therefore, yes, it is a big deal. This is a major weakness of the wizard class that their versitility lacks stamina. Something sorcerers never have to worry about. In short, as long as a wizard doesn't end up sitting around wasting rounds in total defense with spells prepared the sorcerer's increased versitilty towards the end of the day doesn't matter, because it is balanced out by the fact that the sorcerer just has less versitility in general, and doesn't get enough extra spells per day or enough benifits from spontaenous casting to make up for it. This is also completely wrong. What you're saying here is that if wizards cast less, the sorcerer's versitility doesn't matter. Which is true, but very, very silly. Because not only do sorcerers cast more often and therefore more useful to the party longer and more often in a given day, but their versitility, as I outlined above, doesn't decrease until they run completely out of spell slots. So, yes, a sorcerer's spontaneous casting of spells is a huge advantage that you're trying to erroneously discount. Because, as you stated, the wizard can cast their spells more conservatively. (i.e. cast fewer spells total.) The cases where the sorcerer does benifit from the "increased versitility at the end of the day" have yet to show me a wizard who is inteligently prepared. Wizards are all about inteligence, and sure a sorcerer is much better in the hands of someone with an adverage IQ, the smarter a player the better a wizard becomes over the sorcerer. if you switch the words "wizard" with "sorcerer" and vice-versa, the same is also true. Any class in the hands of "an intelligent player" who makes the best use of the chosen class' advantages and minimizes its disadvantages will be able to beat any other class. The same is true for sorcerers "in the hands of a smarter player" over a wizard. Aside from the fact that your statements here pretty much insult the intelligence of anyone who plays a sorcerer. A completely and utterly wrong statement with no merit of truth to it whatsoever. True, smarts and wizard divinations don't tell you everything, but you only need to have versitle enough spells that they can still be used even if the exact situation you wanted doesn't crop up. and yet you think this somehow makes it *easier* for wizards over sorcerers? No. A wizard can simply duplicate a sorcerer's spell list of spells known and have about 2 extra slots or so for repeat spells or spells that sorcerers don't know. If they still use their spells effectively the whole day through, and the sorcerer runs into a single situation where they needed a spell they don't have or would have benifited from having a higher level spell known, which only the wizard has, the wizard has the advantage. Sure, you could make a total suck wizard or sorcerer, but unlike the sorcerer who knows bad spells, if the wizard knows bad spells he won't know them again tomorrow, and will become a better wizard. and the opposite is true in a situation where the sorcerer has a known spell that the wizard doesn't have prepared. (in this same situation, the sorcerer can also cast the spell as many times as there is available spell slots and in as many varieties as a spell that the sorcerer knows in metamagic feats.) Advantage: sorcerer. This prooves nothing. The wizard has no significant advantage here over the sorcerer. Wizards can prepare for something, sorcerers have to rely on dealing with everything ever with what they have, which they may have till the end of the day, but that doesn't mean that it is as effective as say, having the Knowledge (religion) to know what element that deamon is weak to. :cool: all demons are weak to banishment and dismissal. Not to mention a host of debuffing spells that no or extremely few creatures are immune or resistant to, such as bestow curse and enervation. Problem solved. Plus the sorcerer can use these spells as often as needed or even metamagic them up if their higher level spells can't cover the situation. An ability that wizards completely lack, short of paying heavily for it. Your erroneous (and sometimes bigoted - given your statement against people with "average intelligence" who play the sorcerer) statements are often wrong here. Not only can sorcerers compete with wizards, but they can surpass them in virtually all of the things that sorcerers can do by a very wide margin.
solbergb 01-21-05, 07:56 PM	I have yet to see inteligent players of a wizard or a sorcerer ever be in a round of combat and not cast an effective spell. However, I have seen many cases out of combat where a wizard did something that most sorcerers wouldn't be able to do without being innefetive in combat and a poor sorcerer because of how rarely what the wizard did comes up. OK I'll bite. I like such scenarios. Lets say level 10 caster. I'll use my force-sorcereress as an example, she's plenty combat effective. Lets see how she does without using any consumables, using the current build I have planned. spells known: L1 tenser disk, grease, guided shot, feather fall, magic missile L2 levitate, sudden fly, shatter, false life L3 shadow binding, dispel magic, explosive runes L4 evard's tentacles, mass unseen servant L5 telekenesis spells/day 6-77764 feats: spell pen, gr spell pen, enlarge spell, sculpt spell, chain spell. Let us pretend the party is going into an ancient and decrepit temple, the wizard casts a divination or two to look in, and finds 1/2 of the different monsters hiding in the temple as well as several sections that have difficult obstacles. : Ok. I don't know about the obstacles or the monsters. If I take the same time as the wizard though, I enter the place with a minimum of 10 explosive runes (I run mass unseen servant 3x/day, other than that I end a day with 14 level 3-5 slots unused. Saving a couple top level spells for a night battle, I can crank up a satchel of explosives for use tomorrow. Now lets go inside The wizard then prepares appropriate spells for those obstacles and those creatures (probably mostly spells that are still benificial no matter the creature, such as haste, fly(good to get the fighters to the fliers or to aviod the grounded guys), magic missile, etc.) and spends the rest generically. : There's no creature I can't affect with one of these spells: grease, shadow binding, evard's tentacles, magic missile, telekenesis (with my dozen greatswords floating on a tenser's disk) or telekenesis (grapple, bull rush, trip, disarm options). Especially since I can make all of the area spells 20' spreads, or 40' cones, or sets of 4 10x10x10 cubes. Should I run into one where all of those spells are suboptimal, I can zip the fighter over to full attack with telekenesis, dispel debuffs, shatter equipment or barriers or just send my 10 unseen servants over, each armed with an explosive rune and cast a level 5 dispel magic. If the monsters grapple I can protect the whole party with a chain grease. I can chain levitate the whole party to engage groundbound critters This is a character specialized in moving things around, so the obstacles are probably a joke I can feather fall any pits we miss, and sudden fly for tactical mobility. Slippery terrain is a cinch with tenser's disks for the party members and sudden fly for me. My swarm of unseen servants can do a variety of things, including physically lift lighter party members (together they have 200lb of lift). If "close" range isn't good enough, I can cast a version that doubles the range. About the only useful thing in a dungeon delve (but this is ancient temple, not a dungeon) missing is the lack of passwall or teleportation magic. I grant that this could be an issue, but it's a weakness that is temporary, assuming I have no consumables or items that compensate...or teammates that can cover my weaknesses (stone shape is on all the divine caster lists, etc) A more "warmage" oriented sorcerer will have more combat options, but will brute force past obstacles a bit more (use sonic or even fire spells to blast barriers, cast fly on every party member, etc. Again the divine caster might cover some weakness, but not have to rack air walk as compensation. The sorcerer has only generic spells and can't get past the obstacles as efficiently in many cases, and will probably not be able to gain much at all from divving into the temple, if they even do have divvining spells. Sure the sorcerer might do better against that undetected paper golem with his scorching rays, but I have a feeling that it won't help the party out as much as the wizard using passwall on the wall that happens to have a nifty tresure room blocked off by a cavein somewhere else, while near the begging of the exploration. : Well...my sorcerer would just summon more servants and clear away the cave-in. Another would find another way *shrug*. It isn't as elegant as divination+perfect spells, but it works a lot better when something you DID NOT divine bites you in the butt. With a sorc you can just head forward, knowing you're able to contribute right up till you run out of slots. There isn't the tendency to husband spells, worrying that if you use the magic missile in this fight it won't be there for the incorporeal later. Also you don't play by yourself. Divination works just fine from the divine caster, but they don't get telekenesis. Your Rogue also is probably going to notice some stuff anyway. Both wiz and sorc fit the arcane caster slot just fine. But they do it differently.
mercurywyrm 01-21-05, 11:02 PM	spells known: L1 tenser disk, grease, guided shot, feather fall, magic missile L2 levitate, sudden fly, shatter, false life L3 shadow binding, dispel magic, explosive runes L4 evard's tentacles, mass unseen servant L5 telekenesis spells/day 6-77764 feats: spell pen, gr spell pen, enlarge spell, sculpt spell, chain spell. Your other points are fine, however, I would like to note that you have no spells for high SR creatures other than hurting them inderectly trough telekinesis throwing stuff at them. That paper golem I mention as a sort of joke, would actually be immune to all your spells since golems have spell immunity and are completely unaffected by spells which grant SR. PAPER CUTS OF DOOM! :schemes: Anyway, I am not too keen on the mass unseen servant or the evard's tentacles as fourth level spells, but I see what they would be usefull for. However, anyday I would drop shadow binding and explosive runes for haste and fly. Haste and fly are still effective against nearly any enemy, and haste is a full party buff now which is nice to cast every combat. And it is harder to avoid than explosive runes for the enemy. Fly, is well, FLIGHT, can't do wrong with fly. And without dispell magic you can be slaugtered by a prepared mage. I personally would replace the unseen servants with either force orb from CA if you are going for a force theme or one of the other orbs if not. The damage and lack of SR on most of the orbs makes them very worthwhile. You only really need one of them.
solbergb 01-22-05, 03:40 AM	Your other points are fine, however, I would like to note that you have no spells for high SR creatures other than hurting them inderectly trough telekinesis throwing stuff at them. That paper golem I mention as a sort of joke, would actually be immune to all your spells since golems have spell immunity and are completely unaffected by spells which grant SR. PAPER CUTS OF DOOM! :schemes: Well yeah. I do have some spells. For when greater spell pen and casting it again isn't good enough. Grease for one. Shaped any way I like, big enough that anyone who walks is going to have a miserable time and heightened to a decent DC. Golems are especially easy, they have such crappy reflex saves that the stupid thing will be on its butt while the party figures out how to kill it. Evards tentacles for two, although it doesn't work that great on larger monsters. Telekenesis for three. That's a +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11 attack doing 2d6 damage per hit. Given that my monk at level 9 is doing +12/+12/+8 1d10+7 with an unassisted unarmed flurry, I think that's not so bad. If my cleric is doing his job, I should have another +2 at least to that roll. Telekenesis can also be done with one alchemy fire (or two in case you roll bad) and 8-9 flasks of oil, doing 10d6 damage (nonmagical) this round, 10d6 the next, if the AC is too high to hit them with +11. Not bad for less than 50gp spent. Or just a flat 10d6 acid (again no SR), for 100gp. Finally...what about DR? Well, some cold iron and silver arrows should help some, and if anyone in the party (or the enemy for that matter) has any adamantium items I can try to lob those too. I don't expect paper golems have very high DR or resistance to slashing weapons, alchemy fire or acid. I'd do ok. Note that grease and shadow binding can lower armor class. Note that Guided Shot eliminates cover penalties. However your point is noted, which is why GMW is on the L11 spell list, as is Assay Resistance (if it isn't immune, the +14 to my roll should be enough. If it is immune, chained GMW at level 12 and GMW on ammunition items will cover a lot of DR possibilities, with "evil" being the main standout...but evil outsiders you can just punch through with assay resistance). The other level 11 spells...I am not sure yet about L2, maybe gust of wind. The L5 is probably fabricate...it's an extension of the mass unseen servants, burning out their power in a few rounds to do hours and hours of work. Anyway, I am not too keen on the mass unseen servant or the evard's tentacles as fourth level spells, but I see what they would be usefull for. Well, I can see why I'm the only sorc in the world to jump on unseen servant, but that's the fun of themes. Actually she's lightweight enough (100lb soaking wet, with gear kept to 25 lb so she can ride a light warhorse without slowing it down saddled)....that the servants can carry her if she rigs a litter or something. Which means she has slow, dangerous overland flight two levels early. With that and sudden fly, there isn't any need for the actual "fly" spell. Evards is pretty universally seen as an encounter breaker, it is in the top 3 spells I see cast by level 7-10 arcanists, and it scales pretty well on all "character type" opponents, since the grapple check goes up with level. However, anyday I would drop shadow binding and explosive runes for haste and fly. Haste and fly are still effective against nearly any enemy, and haste is a full party buff now which is nice to cast every combat. And it is harder to avoid than explosive runes for the enemy. Fly, is well, FLIGHT, can't do wrong with fly. And without dispell magic you can be slaugtered by a prepared mage. I have dispel magic, took it at level 7. Explosive runes is the L9 pick, it's intended to be a cheaper way to load up the servants with boom than having each one carry 19 flasks of oil and a alchy fire and set them off with "shatter". Again it fits the character (she's a trapmaker, was before she became a sorcerer, and some of her spell choices reflect that she has a life outside of adventuring. Which is why mass unseen servant is the L8 spell choice, for example...it's a big labor saver when running her business). Day to day, explosive runes is suboptimal. Combined with a few days travel though, and you are a mobile armory. The usual way to trigger is to fail a dispel magic (cast it area, at level 5 for best results), but you can give a rune or two to the BDF's to read if they get surrounded by incorporeals, and you can sometimes bluff people into gathering together and reading a batch. It's a way to translate yesterdays spell slots into today's power. Like carrying large amounts of alchemical equipment and weapons around on tenser's discs, it can be awkward, can be dangerous if you aren't careful and can take some work to set up. So it isn't for everyone. But it fits her well, so it's on her list. Shadow Binding...well you have to get to level 10. It's the level 6 spell, where it is a top tier will-save-or-daze spell with "entangle you for 6 rounds too" after the daze. Taking away the attack of any monster (it is shadow magic, so it works on undead, contstructs, vermin...damn near anything..it isn't mind affecting, it grabs you and you struggle for a round if you fail) is valuable, lowering its attack by 2 and dex by 4 and halving its speed is also valuable...you can ground stall-speed flyers with it and combined with grease a landbound monster is just miserable. At level 8, it can be shaped into 20' spread or 40' cone. It's a spell that lets your fighters close, and lets you follow up with another nasty spell (grease at level 6 usually) that makes them more vulnerable while the warriors full attack. Level 9 I get Evards, so I get the choice of "stop monsters with grapple check" or "stop them with a will save". Since I'm a sorcerer, if the monster remains dangerous I can cast it over and over and over until the rest of the party kills it, keeping it dazed and useless most of the time. Is stinking cloud better than shadow binding? Probably, although it hinders your allies more. But stinking cloud didn't fit the theme, whereas shadow binding is halfway between "grease" and "evard's tentacles"...when Olivia casts it, tentacles sprout from everyone in the burst and if they fail will save, they stick and lock around you. It's the same category of spell though, and I have other stuff for strong will save enemies (they tend to suck at grappling, or have bad reflex saves or both) As mentioned, mass unseen servant handles overland flight, sudden fly handles combat flight (without wasting a standard action casting it), telekenesis handles pushing a fighter up to a flying enemy (or dragging it down), feather fall is also available and chain levitate can get the whole party airborne faster than anything this side of reverse gravity. I really don't need fly. Haste would be nice, but doesn't fit her theme. If she finds a wand of it, she'll seriously consider buying one. (heck the +1 to her attack rolls alone when firing her TK sword swarm makes it worth it). I personally would replace the unseen servants with either force orb from CA if you are going for a force theme or one of the other orbs if not. The damage and lack of SR on most of the orbs makes them very worthwhile. You only really need one of them. She's telekenetically themed. Some force spells end up on her list, but she isn't an Argent Master. Her no-SR direct damage spell is Telekenesis. She really doesn't need another one. At lower levels her no-SR direct damage spell is unseen servant+alchemical stuff+shatter. For SR-affected direct damage she has magic missile and explosive runes, and will have disintigrate at level 13ish. That's enough spells spent on that. You have to be careful not to duplicate too many things. Sudden Fly != flying with unseen servants+litter != riding a tenser's disk != feather falling. feather fall works even when it isn't your turn Sudden fly is a quickened fly spell that you can keep active by burning worthless L2 spell slots each round that you need it. Most combats are short enough you can fly the whole time. Tenser's disks are indestructable if you stay close to a surface but take directing each round if you don't want them just to follow you. They can lift a crapload of weight htough. Levitate is tenser's disk vertical, without the duration. Unlike Tenser's though, it is targeted, not an "effect" so it can be chained, so you spend one full round action and the whole party is 20' up in the air. Unseen Servants will keep flying you each round whether you direct them or not, following their last order. They're directed as a move action, and the mass unseen servants are all directed together as one move action, a big advantage of the L4 spell over multiple castings of the L1 spell. The big downside of the swarm as fly spell is the 15' speed and the lack of safety measures if they get dispelled or destroyed by an area attack. I guess I should add TK to the list, it's kind of like a weak levitate you have to concentrate on that can go in 3 dimensions, instead of just vertical. It's kinda slow though, you usually have to lead with violent thrust and then follow with feather fall to get a fighter somewhere quickly. I spent 5+ spells on things that "fly" me, rather than the more usual "fly and overland flight". This is at the high end of any investment for a sorcerer at level 10, but moving things is what she DOES. Also most of the spells are multipurpose. Feather Fall and Sudden Fly are not, their power is in their low opportunity cost. Levitate is a rare bird that works on objects and creatures equally, and is strong. Tenser's can be controlled by moving the sorcerer and has great duration. Obviously there are a lot more uses for the unseen servants and TK than mere flight. For Olivia, these spells represent comfort, convenience and safety. Battlefield positioning is very important to her defensive strategy, and physical obstacles...aren't. Offensively, the same spells that keep her safe bring hurt to the enemy, either directly or via placing teammates in optomal positions. If somebody has a flank, my best action is probably to stick the TWF rogue on the other side, so he can full attack and do 7d6 per hit with his flaming shortswords+5d6 sneak. Generally a sorcerer needs one spell in every category by level 6, and by level 10 can afford about 2 in every category with 3-5 in their speciality. At L10, if you have 3+ spells that overlap, they should be scrutinized to see if you really need all of them. If they're different enough, and what they do different is better than bringing in a different class of spell, fine. A lot depends on the metamagic too.