Character Goal (Gestalt) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Goal (Gestalt) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathXI
09-08-06, 04:59 PM Ok, I'm looking at making a gestalt character,and would like some assistance.

3.0 or 3.5 classes are fine, and so are Self-made ones from this board (if they're not overly unbalanced) and you have a link.

I'm looking at something that is a combination of Sorceror/Rogue/Fighter.
(I'd make my own class to compliment the sorceror or another arcane caster, but every class I make is always imbalanced and sucks.)
Goals are as follows:

Twin Katana (or Scimitar) Fighting.
Class skills including Perform, Bluff, and Listen.
4+ skills per level (Without int)
No arcane spell failure chance in Light (and only light) armor.

Proficiencies don't matter -- only ones i'd use would be light armor and the weapon I end up wit (Preferably Katana)

~~~
Preferably a d8 or d10 HD.
I would like Evasion, but it's not really necessary.

Now, the best way I can see to do this is to take the "Generic classes" from Unearthed Arcana -- But the Expert is kind of low HD wise for me, and the warrior is kind of low skill wise for me.

~~~~
The general character idea is a Pirate-esque Mage. So, any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thomar_of_Uointer
09-08-06, 05:10 PM Duh. Fighter/Bard.

As a bard, you get to both buff yourself and your allies. Inspire Courage can be shot off as a standard action and last for five rounds. Since you're focusing on your sword, offensive magic isn't a big deal. You can also heal yourself.

Fighter is self-explanatory. Stick bonus feats wherever you need them.
Yak of Darkness
09-08-06, 05:15 PM Ok, I'm looking at making a gestalt character,and would like some assistance.When you say "gestalt," do you mean "unified whole combining these concepts" or do you mean "the Unearthed Arcana variant where you take two classes at the same time?"

If you mean the latter, then you could pretty well do that with bard on one side and ranger on the other. You'd get Perform, Bluff, and Listen on your skill list (among many other things); you could pull off two-weapon fighting, easily (using the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat so you can dual-wield scimitars or katana); 6+Int skill points/level; Evasion; the ability to cast freely in light armor; and a d8 hit die.

If you mean the former, then multiclassing might be your best bet. Bard, warlock, and hexblade (among others, I'm sure) can all do arcane spellcasting in light armor--and a psion or divine caster never worries about spell failure. Ranger's still a good idea for lots of skill points and a full BAB, although if you want some extra feats (such as Oversized TWF or EWP: Katana), you can mix in a level or two of fighter). Dervish would make a nice PrC if you like the scimitars . . . but if you'd rather advance your spellcasting and fighting at the same time, something like Eldritch Knight would do you better.
DeathXI
09-08-06, 06:11 PM The Arcana Unearthed where you take two classes at the same time (Or rather, the best parts of each)

And while a bard WOULD work, I was looking for the sorceror/wizard esque class -- with the evocation spells and such. (How can you beat a guy who cuts you to pieces, then when you run away he shoots you with a fireball?)

While the bard is good, i have no desire for the bards general abilitites (bardic music and such) and would vastly prefer a sorc/wizard (or similiar) spell list.
frasmage
09-08-06, 06:31 PM yes, it looks like you are asking for a bard/[fighter-type].

If you want another idea ( I realize you said you wanted board ideas too) is the one in my sig - The Gemini Dancer - Not to toot my own horn or anything, but the class it quite well balanced, really cool, is a combat specialist and can fill just about any niche you give it. We made a feat system that can allow you to personalize what the purposes of your dances are.

Check it out if you feel this might be up your alley :)

PS: This class is well balanced, but there are ways to go beyond breaking it with gestalt
Yak of Darkness
09-08-06, 06:45 PM While the bard is good, i have no desire for the bards general abilitites (bardic music and such) and would vastly prefer a sorc/wizard (or similiar) spell list.Psion. Similar power list, no worries about armor. You'd want to specialize as a Kineticist if it's the evocation school that interests you (although the Shaper and Telepath both get Bluff on their skill list).

Maybe mix in a level or three of rogue (as the first couple of levels in the build--work that ×4 skill bonus with the rogue's high skill points) if you want to keep the skills you lose out on by dropping bard. I say "a level or three" since taking the third level will get you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage--something that will synergize very well with your two-weapon fighting.
scienceman47
09-08-06, 07:40 PM You cant do everything. You have to give up something somewhere.

But my recommendation is either battle sorceror(UA variant)/rogue, or warmage/rogue.
StruckingFuggle
09-08-06, 09:03 PM If it weren't for the skill point stipulation, I'd say go for swasbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / rogue or whatever X // wizard / spellsword* / incantitrix at LEAST 3 / whatever ... and dual-wield scimitars, definitely (depending on your feats, either pick up Dervish 1, or Oversized TWF, of course) ... and by the way, stagger your spellsword levels, either (spellsword / bab class) or (spellsword / wizard) so you don't give up caster level progression.

Feats of note would be Extend Spell and Arcane Strike. And then whatever.
periscope
09-08-06, 09:34 PM Duskblade would take care of the fighter and wizard part somewhat + rogue. Though I would personally recommend the Warblade from the Tome of Battle and a beguiler. Beguiler gives you the rogue part plus the use magic device skill as a class skill. This will do for when someone runs away and you whip out a wand of fireball + you can use the spells in light armor. Warblade gives you total bad###ery especially if you take the two weapon fighting style + oversized two weapon fighting+ Improved Critical+ Tiger claw maneuvers.
DwarvinJedi
09-08-06, 10:17 PM You know what, Duskblade//Beguiler might be kind of cool, maybe sacrifice one of them later on for Dervish, if you want 2 scimitars
DeathXI
09-08-06, 11:16 PM well, after looking at Unearthed Arcana some more, and reading a post on this board, I noticed that the "Rogue Variant" class loses sneak attack (not that important to me) but gains the Fighter Bonus Feat progression.

Using the bonus feats I can easily gain all two-weapon fighting abilities, assuming I meet the requirements (also easy in this campaign)

So, Variant Rogue takes care of that. a little weak on HD then i'd have liked, but i'll take it. Now i just have to find some feats to lower my arcane spell failure chance in light (or one specific) armor, and I'll be quite happy.

~~~~

The gemini dancer looked good, in fact I saved it for possible later use but not what i'm looking for right now. Good class though.

Psionic's are not something i've ever played or seen played, but I will look into it to see how well it matches up with sorceror/wizard (or some other arcane class I may end up taking)
Rerecros
09-09-06, 12:45 AM Gestalt Ranger/Battle-Sorcerer.
Ranger/Sorcerer would make better use of gestalt rules, but if you just have cast arcane spells in light armor...
SageBahamut
09-09-06, 01:11 AM Warmage is the perfect class for the spellcasting side. it does everything you're talking about, including casting in light armor.

for the other side, I would reccomend either Fighter, because you can never go wrong with that many feats, or Scout, simply because they make tasty, tasty Dervishes later on. (skirmish + dervish dance + two-weapon pounce = *droooool* )

If you're really sadistic, you meet the prereq's and gestalt Dervish/Tempest later.
Yak of Darkness
09-09-06, 03:06 AM If you're really sadistic, you meet the prereq's and gestalt Dervish/Tempest later.Can't gestalt two PrCs at the same time . . . pretty much so stuff like this doesn't happen. ;)
StruckingFuggle
09-09-06, 02:58 PM Can't gestalt two PrCs at the same time . . . pretty much so stuff like this doesn't happen.

Nope. :( But since Dervish only has a +5 BAB / 4 feat req, you can still fit Derivsh 10 / Tempest 5 into a build anyway, legitlike. Just need to be Human and a Fighter. Wouldn't wouldn't really work for this build, but for another (now, man, if only you could fit CoCL into the same build. Dual-wield thinblades at no penalty with int, str, and dex to the damage. Sick. Just sick. :D)

So, Variant Rogue takes care of that. a little weak on HD then i'd have liked, but i'll take it. Now i just have to find some feats to lower my arcane spell failure chance in light (or one specific) armor, and I'll be quite happy.

If you take Battle Sorceror, you can do that just fine in all light armor as a class feature. If you don't, you'd have to take either Duskblade, Bard, or something with a limited spell list, like Warmage or one of its derivitives (Dread Necro, Beguiler)... or use some sort of Thistledown Padded (RotW) Special Material (AEG) Twilight-enchanted (BoED) armor ... or take Spellsword (or one of the other rare prcs that reduce asf ... I know there's at least one more but it doesn't occur to me). There's no feat to reduce asf in any sort of armor.

There is, however, a feat in Complete Arcane (I think that's where it is) called something like "Armored Caster", that would bump any class' class feature "cast free in light armor" to "cast free in medium armor" (thus making mithril fullplate possible. :P)
DeathXI
09-09-06, 03:27 PM Well, I'm actually looking at Variant Rogue/Generic Arcane(or Divine) spellcaster.

The generic spellcaster, from Unearthed Arcana as well, is a slightly less powerful sorceror in that you get less spells per day, however, you can take ANY spell from the cleric, druid, and sorc/wizard spell lists making it extremely versatile. While this does not give me the Light armor, like I would have liked, I'm considering trading the 5 bonus feats that class gets for that ability -- or finding (or making since you said there's none you know of) a feat that eliminates/reduces the arcane failure chance. Maybe something like the Fighters Armor Specilization, except for arcane spell failure chance.

I also remember reading somewhere about an armor special ability/enhancement that reduces the arcane spell failure chance, I'll have to go look around and see if I can find it. All I really want is leather armor.

~
Edit/add-on:

Couldn't find the armor special ability anywhere, however it did give me the idea of maybe making one. A few of the "Specific" armors have reduced spellcasting failure chances (Celestial Armor, for example) Since Leather only has a 10% failure chance, I'd say it'd be a +2 equivalant ability to reduce the chance to 0%

Of course, there's always the option of enchanting my clothes with "mage armor" as well, but it just doesn't give the same look/flavor as I'd like.
StruckingFuggle
09-09-06, 03:54 PM I also remember reading somewhere about an armor special ability/enhancement that reduces the arcane spell failure chance, I'll have to go look around and see if I can find it. All I really want is leather armor.

I listed a couple of those, actually. There's several materials in the Arms and Equiptment Guide that allow you to make armor with a reduced spell failure chance. There's a flat-cost addition to armor, Thistledown Padding, that does the same, from Races of the Wild, and finally, the 'Twilight' enchantment from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Between which you could get some light armor down into the 0% asf range. :)
DeathXI
09-09-06, 04:43 PM Ahh, so it does. I would have liked Entropium, but that brings it down to only 5%. So Blended Quartz it is. Although I may have to shift to Chain Shirt since it sounds like it's metal only (although it doesn't say that). Still, it works out rather well. It seems I've achieved all my objectives -- albeit one with a specific armor type that I'll have to work on getting, but it's better than nothing. Twilight enchantment is essentially what I wanted as well, and only a +1 enhancement. Thanks everyone, especially StruckingFuggle for that last tip on Arms and Equipment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathXI 09-08-06, 04:59 PM	Ok, I'm looking at making a gestalt character,and would like some assistance. 3.0 or 3.5 classes are fine, and so are Self-made ones from this board (if they're not overly unbalanced) and you have a link. I'm looking at something that is a combination of Sorceror/Rogue/Fighter. (I'd make my own class to compliment the sorceror or another arcane caster, but every class I make is always imbalanced and sucks.) Goals are as follows: Twin Katana (or Scimitar) Fighting. Class skills including Perform, Bluff, and Listen. 4+ skills per level (Without int) No arcane spell failure chance in Light (and only light) armor. Proficiencies don't matter -- only ones i'd use would be light armor and the weapon I end up wit (Preferably Katana) ~~~ Preferably a d8 or d10 HD. I would like Evasion, but it's not really necessary. Now, the best way I can see to do this is to take the "Generic classes" from Unearthed Arcana -- But the Expert is kind of low HD wise for me, and the warrior is kind of low skill wise for me. ~~~~ The general character idea is a Pirate-esque Mage. So, any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-08-06, 05:10 PM	Duh. Fighter/Bard. As a bard, you get to both buff yourself and your allies. Inspire Courage can be shot off as a standard action and last for five rounds. Since you're focusing on your sword, offensive magic isn't a big deal. You can also heal yourself. Fighter is self-explanatory. Stick bonus feats wherever you need them.
Yak of Darkness 09-08-06, 05:15 PM	Ok, I'm looking at making a gestalt character,and would like some assistance.When you say "gestalt," do you mean "unified whole combining these concepts" or do you mean "the Unearthed Arcana variant where you take two classes at the same time?" If you mean the latter, then you could pretty well do that with bard on one side and ranger on the other. You'd get Perform, Bluff, and Listen on your skill list (among many other things); you could pull off two-weapon fighting, easily (using the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat so you can dual-wield scimitars or katana); 6+Int skill points/level; Evasion; the ability to cast freely in light armor; and a d8 hit die. If you mean the former, then multiclassing might be your best bet. Bard, warlock, and hexblade (among others, I'm sure) can all do arcane spellcasting in light armor--and a psion or divine caster never worries about spell failure. Ranger's still a good idea for lots of skill points and a full BAB, although if you want some extra feats (such as Oversized TWF or EWP: Katana), you can mix in a level or two of fighter). Dervish would make a nice PrC if you like the scimitars . . . but if you'd rather advance your spellcasting and fighting at the same time, something like Eldritch Knight would do you better.
DeathXI 09-08-06, 06:11 PM	The Arcana Unearthed where you take two classes at the same time (Or rather, the best parts of each) And while a bard WOULD work, I was looking for the sorceror/wizard esque class -- with the evocation spells and such. (How can you beat a guy who cuts you to pieces, then when you run away he shoots you with a fireball?) While the bard is good, i have no desire for the bards general abilitites (bardic music and such) and would vastly prefer a sorc/wizard (or similiar) spell list.
frasmage 09-08-06, 06:31 PM	yes, it looks like you are asking for a bard/[fighter-type]. If you want another idea ( I realize you said you wanted board ideas too) is the one in my sig - The Gemini Dancer - Not to toot my own horn or anything, but the class it quite well balanced, really cool, is a combat specialist and can fill just about any niche you give it. We made a feat system that can allow you to personalize what the purposes of your dances are. Check it out if you feel this might be up your alley :) PS: This class is well balanced, but there are ways to go beyond breaking it with gestalt
Yak of Darkness 09-08-06, 06:45 PM	While the bard is good, i have no desire for the bards general abilitites (bardic music and such) and would vastly prefer a sorc/wizard (or similiar) spell list.Psion. Similar power list, no worries about armor. You'd want to specialize as a Kineticist if it's the evocation school that interests you (although the Shaper and Telepath both get Bluff on their skill list). Maybe mix in a level or three of rogue (as the first couple of levels in the build--work that ×4 skill bonus with the rogue's high skill points) if you want to keep the skills you lose out on by dropping bard. I say "a level or three" since taking the third level will get you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage--something that will synergize very well with your two-weapon fighting.
scienceman47 09-08-06, 07:40 PM	You cant do everything. You have to give up something somewhere. But my recommendation is either battle sorceror(UA variant)/rogue, or warmage/rogue.
StruckingFuggle 09-08-06, 09:03 PM	If it weren't for the skill point stipulation, I'd say go for swasbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / rogue or whatever X // wizard / spellsword* / incantitrix at LEAST 3 / whatever ... and dual-wield scimitars, definitely (depending on your feats, either pick up Dervish 1, or Oversized TWF, of course) ... and by the way, stagger your spellsword levels, either (spellsword / bab class) or (spellsword / wizard) so you don't give up caster level progression. Feats of note would be Extend Spell and Arcane Strike. And then whatever.
periscope 09-08-06, 09:34 PM	Duskblade would take care of the fighter and wizard part somewhat + rogue. Though I would personally recommend the Warblade from the Tome of Battle and a beguiler. Beguiler gives you the rogue part plus the use magic device skill as a class skill. This will do for when someone runs away and you whip out a wand of fireball + you can use the spells in light armor. Warblade gives you total bad###ery especially if you take the two weapon fighting style + oversized two weapon fighting+ Improved Critical+ Tiger claw maneuvers.
DwarvinJedi 09-08-06, 10:17 PM	You know what, Duskblade//Beguiler might be kind of cool, maybe sacrifice one of them later on for Dervish, if you want 2 scimitars
DeathXI 09-08-06, 11:16 PM	well, after looking at Unearthed Arcana some more, and reading a post on this board, I noticed that the "Rogue Variant" class loses sneak attack (not that important to me) but gains the Fighter Bonus Feat progression. Using the bonus feats I can easily gain all two-weapon fighting abilities, assuming I meet the requirements (also easy in this campaign) So, Variant Rogue takes care of that. a little weak on HD then i'd have liked, but i'll take it. Now i just have to find some feats to lower my arcane spell failure chance in light (or one specific) armor, and I'll be quite happy. ~~~~ The gemini dancer looked good, in fact I saved it for possible later use but not what i'm looking for right now. Good class though. Psionic's are not something i've ever played or seen played, but I will look into it to see how well it matches up with sorceror/wizard (or some other arcane class I may end up taking)
Rerecros 09-09-06, 12:45 AM	Gestalt Ranger/Battle-Sorcerer. Ranger/Sorcerer would make better use of gestalt rules, but if you just have cast arcane spells in light armor...
SageBahamut 09-09-06, 01:11 AM	Warmage is the perfect class for the spellcasting side. it does everything you're talking about, including casting in light armor. for the other side, I would reccomend either Fighter, because you can never go wrong with that many feats, or Scout, simply because they make tasty, tasty Dervishes later on. (skirmish + dervish dance + two-weapon pounce = droooool ) If you're really sadistic, you meet the prereq's and gestalt Dervish/Tempest later.
Yak of Darkness 09-09-06, 03:06 AM	If you're really sadistic, you meet the prereq's and gestalt Dervish/Tempest later.Can't gestalt two PrCs at the same time . . . pretty much so stuff like this doesn't happen. ;)
StruckingFuggle 09-09-06, 02:58 PM	Can't gestalt two PrCs at the same time . . . pretty much so stuff like this doesn't happen. Nope. :( But since Dervish only has a +5 BAB / 4 feat req, you can still fit Derivsh 10 / Tempest 5 into a build anyway, legitlike. Just need to be Human and a Fighter. Wouldn't wouldn't really work for this build, but for another (now, man, if only you could fit CoCL into the same build. Dual-wield thinblades at no penalty with int, str, and dex to the damage. Sick. Just sick. :D) So, Variant Rogue takes care of that. a little weak on HD then i'd have liked, but i'll take it. Now i just have to find some feats to lower my arcane spell failure chance in light (or one specific) armor, and I'll be quite happy. If you take Battle Sorceror, you can do that just fine in all light armor as a class feature. If you don't, you'd have to take either Duskblade, Bard, or something with a limited spell list, like Warmage or one of its derivitives (Dread Necro, Beguiler)... or use some sort of Thistledown Padded (RotW) Special Material (AEG) Twilight-enchanted (BoED) armor ... or take Spellsword (or one of the other rare prcs that reduce asf ... I know there's at least one more but it doesn't occur to me). There's no feat to reduce asf in any sort of armor. There is, however, a feat in Complete Arcane (I think that's where it is) called something like "Armored Caster", that would bump any class' class feature "cast free in light armor" to "cast free in medium armor" (thus making mithril fullplate possible. :P)
DeathXI 09-09-06, 03:27 PM	Well, I'm actually looking at Variant Rogue/Generic Arcane(or Divine) spellcaster. The generic spellcaster, from Unearthed Arcana as well, is a slightly less powerful sorceror in that you get less spells per day, however, you can take ANY spell from the cleric, druid, and sorc/wizard spell lists making it extremely versatile. While this does not give me the Light armor, like I would have liked, I'm considering trading the 5 bonus feats that class gets for that ability -- or finding (or making since you said there's none you know of) a feat that eliminates/reduces the arcane failure chance. Maybe something like the Fighters Armor Specilization, except for arcane spell failure chance. I also remember reading somewhere about an armor special ability/enhancement that reduces the arcane spell failure chance, I'll have to go look around and see if I can find it. All I really want is leather armor. ~ Edit/add-on: Couldn't find the armor special ability anywhere, however it did give me the idea of maybe making one. A few of the "Specific" armors have reduced spellcasting failure chances (Celestial Armor, for example) Since Leather only has a 10% failure chance, I'd say it'd be a +2 equivalant ability to reduce the chance to 0% Of course, there's always the option of enchanting my clothes with "mage armor" as well, but it just doesn't give the same look/flavor as I'd like.
StruckingFuggle 09-09-06, 03:54 PM	I also remember reading somewhere about an armor special ability/enhancement that reduces the arcane spell failure chance, I'll have to go look around and see if I can find it. All I really want is leather armor. I listed a couple of those, actually. There's several materials in the Arms and Equiptment Guide that allow you to make armor with a reduced spell failure chance. There's a flat-cost addition to armor, Thistledown Padding, that does the same, from Races of the Wild, and finally, the 'Twilight' enchantment from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Between which you could get some light armor down into the 0% asf range. :)
DeathXI 09-09-06, 04:43 PM	Ahh, so it does. I would have liked Entropium, but that brings it down to only 5%. So Blended Quartz it is. Although I may have to shift to Chain Shirt since it sounds like it's metal only (although it doesn't say that). Still, it works out rather well. It seems I've achieved all my objectives -- albeit one with a specific armor type that I'll have to work on getting, but it's better than nothing. Twilight enchantment is essentially what I wanted as well, and only a +1 enhancement. Thanks everyone, especially StruckingFuggle for that last tip on Arms and Equipment.