Character HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character HP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vonklaude
05-20-07, 05:23 AM After seeing yet another Fighter gain a disappointing 3HP on levelling, and prompted by a new player joining who wants to take average HP per the DMG variant, I'm considering implementing an alternate HP table. (Maven alert: this is a strictly game mechanical thread without regard to, nor challenge to offer, RP.)

Over on http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/home I see the following proposed: d4 becomes d3+2, d6 becomes d4+2, d8 becomes d6+2, d10 becomes d6+4 and d12 becomes d6+6.

To me that seems a little uneven, partly because it gives arcanists an extra point for no particular reason. Those scale as 3-5 (4), 3-6 (4.5), 3-8 (5.5), 5-10 (7.5), and 7-12 (9.5).

I was considering d3+1, d4+2, d5+3, d6+4, and 2d4+4. 1-4 (3), 3-6 (4.5), 4-8 (6), 5-10 (7.5), and 6-12 (9).

Has anyone else tinkered with this? What were your findings? Is it better just to go with the variant in the DMG (where players can either roll or take averages). And what do you think of rounding up and down at alternate levels? Does that ever cause problems?

-vk
Majick
05-20-07, 05:31 AM There's nothing wrong with taking the averages (for a fighter that would be 6 of course + CON) but for me it's only really fair if EVERY player does it that way
runestar
05-20-07, 06:20 AM We roll for hp as per normal, but our result can never go lower than the average hp (7 for barbs, 6 for fighters etc - since there are no decimals in dnd).:)
Kalarus
05-20-07, 06:35 AM I think the issue is fairly well addressed in a WotC published book (I think it was either DMG or DMGII, I forgot) where it suggests players be allowed to take the average hit points each level (rounding down and up alternatively to actually keep it average), because low rolls can be disappointing.

If you're going to roll, well lowing roll just sucks, but unless it happens consistently and you end up with hitpoints below average, suck it up and live with it. You don't see your DM toning your hp down when you roll high for the xth time.

If you allow hp to be high every diceroll, don't bother and just fill in a high average (3/4th of max hp will probably do nicely, probably nets about the same result as what Runestar does) but your characters will end up being tougher than the game assumes.

Playing experiences with dicerolls:
In one of my groups, I calculated what the L6 knight had rolled per die given his total hitpoints. Turns out he rolled 11.5 hp per d12 on average. We roll hp at the table in presence of the rest of the group, nobody ever just noticed but it did explain why the guy really never went down against CRs appropriate to our L6 party. He had nearly 4x the hp of the party rogue. It isn't a problem, since the knight tends to get hit more than the rogue.

In another group, the DM occasionally rerolls for a player if he hears them cursing after getting a disappointing roll. Since the bast.. erm, I mean, nice DM has a tendency to be too lucky for our good, it usually ends up with a max or near max roll. He doesn't mind, it just means he can hurt us more, so we play a campaign that is more appropriate for our high-stat characters.

You only get a problem if you create a tough campaign, but don't do anything about low dicerolls because that's just the fluke of the roll. That's just asking for PC deaths or even TPKs ;)
Qube
05-20-07, 06:43 AM we can choose to lower the die, to gain bonus hp
| . d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12
---+--------------------------
d4 | 2 +1 +0 - - - -
d6 | 3 +2 +1 +0 - - -
d8 | 4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - -
d10| 5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 -
d12| 6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0
same average, but you can choose to lower the risk factor
runestar
05-20-07, 06:45 AM True, but it at least allows us the thrill of rolling for our hp, without the dismay of rolling crap. Closest thing we can come to that enjoys the best of both worlds...:P

Yes, I know we are cheating ourselves, but hey, we are willing to be cheated...:D
vonklaude
05-20-07, 07:07 AM we can choose to lower the die, to gain bonus hp
| . d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12
---+--------------------------
d4 | 2 +1 +0 - - - -
d6 | 3 +2 +1 +0 - - -
d8 | 4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - -
d10| 5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 -
d12| 6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0
same average, but you can choose to lower the risk factor

I like your table! I was considering d4, d5+1, d6+2, 2d4+2, and d8+4, which looks odd but scales up the minimums while keeping the roll as flat as possible. Shame there are no d7s ;)

I'll run it by our group. Use the table above, use the DMG variant, or use different dice. It's nice to get some helpful views of this. Thank you.
LordPendragon
05-20-07, 11:48 AM In my playgroup, I always take average HP (and no, the rounding up/down every 2nd level isn't a problem). Everyone else usually rolls their HP, and we've had no issues with balance because of it.

If you have trouble remembering which levels to round up or round down on, just think of this... Round down on even character levels, round up on odd character levels.
Garonak
05-20-07, 12:42 PM Different HP calculations used in my groups:
Average: Example: 2d10=11
Average+: Ex: 1d10=6
Weirdo system: 1/2 die + half: Eaxmple: d8 becomes d4+4, d10 becomes d5+5
Average-: Ex: 1d10=5
Roll normal, rerolls on 1
All work out quite nicely.
Jenrock
05-20-07, 01:33 PM I wholly support the way Iron Heroes handeled this. You gain a set number of hit points per level, plus 1d4 (see the following table).

Old Die New Die
d12 d4+8
d10 d4+6
d8 d4+4
d6 d4+2
d4 d4

This way, everyone is guarenteed to have a good number of hit points.
Jaxgaret
05-20-07, 03:56 PM I wholly support the way Iron Heroes handeled this. You gain a set number of hit points per level, plus 1d4 (see the following table).

Old Die New Die
d12 d4+8
d10 d4+6
d8 d4+4
d6 d4+2
d4 d4

This way, everyone is guarenteed to have a good number of hit points.

That variant also provides an additional bonus to a PC's HP depending on how large their HD is; the higher-HD classes get a larger boost.

This is good for balancing the melee classes to the squishies, but it also has the effect of making Clerics and Druids even more powerful, comparatively.
Illithid_Tentacles
05-20-07, 05:09 PM I'd say if you roll under a third your potential maximum (UNDER a third, not precisely 1/3), then you should be allowed to roll again, meaning anyone with a d12 or d10 HD rerolls 1s, 2s, and 3s, characters with a d8 HD reroll 1s and 2s, and characters with d6 or d4 HD reroll 1's. It saves frustration, especially for fighters and barbarians, but it doesn't upset game balance much (it at all, really). I don't think I've ever met a DM who wouldn't allow someone with a d10 or d12 HD to reroll 1's and 2's for HP.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vonklaude 05-20-07, 05:23 AM	After seeing yet another Fighter gain a disappointing 3HP on levelling, and prompted by a new player joining who wants to take average HP per the DMG variant, I'm considering implementing an alternate HP table. (Maven alert: this is a strictly game mechanical thread without regard to, nor challenge to offer, RP.) Over on http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/home I see the following proposed: d4 becomes d3+2, d6 becomes d4+2, d8 becomes d6+2, d10 becomes d6+4 and d12 becomes d6+6. To me that seems a little uneven, partly because it gives arcanists an extra point for no particular reason. Those scale as 3-5 (4), 3-6 (4.5), 3-8 (5.5), 5-10 (7.5), and 7-12 (9.5). I was considering d3+1, d4+2, d5+3, d6+4, and 2d4+4. 1-4 (3), 3-6 (4.5), 4-8 (6), 5-10 (7.5), and 6-12 (9). Has anyone else tinkered with this? What were your findings? Is it better just to go with the variant in the DMG (where players can either roll or take averages). And what do you think of rounding up and down at alternate levels? Does that ever cause problems? -vk
Majick 05-20-07, 05:31 AM	There's nothing wrong with taking the averages (for a fighter that would be 6 of course + CON) but for me it's only really fair if EVERY player does it that way
runestar 05-20-07, 06:20 AM	We roll for hp as per normal, but our result can never go lower than the average hp (7 for barbs, 6 for fighters etc - since there are no decimals in dnd).:)
Kalarus 05-20-07, 06:35 AM	I think the issue is fairly well addressed in a WotC published book (I think it was either DMG or DMGII, I forgot) where it suggests players be allowed to take the average hit points each level (rounding down and up alternatively to actually keep it average), because low rolls can be disappointing. If you're going to roll, well lowing roll just sucks, but unless it happens consistently and you end up with hitpoints below average, suck it up and live with it. You don't see your DM toning your hp down when you roll high for the xth time. If you allow hp to be high every diceroll, don't bother and just fill in a high average (3/4th of max hp will probably do nicely, probably nets about the same result as what Runestar does) but your characters will end up being tougher than the game assumes. Playing experiences with dicerolls: In one of my groups, I calculated what the L6 knight had rolled per die given his total hitpoints. Turns out he rolled 11.5 hp per d12 on average. We roll hp at the table in presence of the rest of the group, nobody ever just noticed but it did explain why the guy really never went down against CRs appropriate to our L6 party. He had nearly 4x the hp of the party rogue. It isn't a problem, since the knight tends to get hit more than the rogue. In another group, the DM occasionally rerolls for a player if he hears them cursing after getting a disappointing roll. Since the bast.. erm, I mean, nice DM has a tendency to be too lucky for our good, it usually ends up with a max or near max roll. He doesn't mind, it just means he can hurt us more, so we play a campaign that is more appropriate for our high-stat characters. You only get a problem if you create a tough campaign, but don't do anything about low dicerolls because that's just the fluke of the roll. That's just asking for PC deaths or even TPKs ;)
Qube 05-20-07, 06:43 AM	we can choose to lower the die, to gain bonus hp \| . d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12 ---+-------------------------- d4 \| 2 +1 +0 - - - - d6 \| 3 +2 +1 +0 - - - d8 \| 4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - - d10\| 5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - d12\| 6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 same average, but you can choose to lower the risk factor
runestar 05-20-07, 06:45 AM	True, but it at least allows us the thrill of rolling for our hp, without the dismay of rolling crap. Closest thing we can come to that enjoys the best of both worlds...:P Yes, I know we are cheating ourselves, but hey, we are willing to be cheated...:D
vonklaude 05-20-07, 07:07 AM	we can choose to lower the die, to gain bonus hp \| . d2 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12 ---+-------------------------- d4 \| 2 +1 +0 - - - - d6 \| 3 +2 +1 +0 - - - d8 \| 4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - - d10\| 5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 - d12\| 6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 same average, but you can choose to lower the risk factor I like your table! I was considering d4, d5+1, d6+2, 2d4+2, and d8+4, which looks odd but scales up the minimums while keeping the roll as flat as possible. Shame there are no d7s ;) I'll run it by our group. Use the table above, use the DMG variant, or use different dice. It's nice to get some helpful views of this. Thank you.
LordPendragon 05-20-07, 11:48 AM	In my playgroup, I always take average HP (and no, the rounding up/down every 2nd level isn't a problem). Everyone else usually rolls their HP, and we've had no issues with balance because of it. If you have trouble remembering which levels to round up or round down on, just think of this... Round down on even character levels, round up on odd character levels.
Garonak 05-20-07, 12:42 PM	Different HP calculations used in my groups: Average: Example: 2d10=11 Average+: Ex: 1d10=6 Weirdo system: 1/2 die + half: Eaxmple: d8 becomes d4+4, d10 becomes d5+5 Average-: Ex: 1d10=5 Roll normal, rerolls on 1 All work out quite nicely.
Jenrock 05-20-07, 01:33 PM	I wholly support the way Iron Heroes handeled this. You gain a set number of hit points per level, plus 1d4 (see the following table). Old Die New Die d12 d4+8 d10 d4+6 d8 d4+4 d6 d4+2 d4 d4 This way, everyone is guarenteed to have a good number of hit points.
Jaxgaret 05-20-07, 03:56 PM	I wholly support the way Iron Heroes handeled this. You gain a set number of hit points per level, plus 1d4 (see the following table). Old Die New Die d12 d4+8 d10 d4+6 d8 d4+4 d6 d4+2 d4 d4 This way, everyone is guarenteed to have a good number of hit points. That variant also provides an additional bonus to a PC's HP depending on how large their HD is; the higher-HD classes get a larger boost. This is good for balancing the melee classes to the squishies, but it also has the effect of making Clerics and Druids even more powerful, comparatively.
Illithid_Tentacles 05-20-07, 05:09 PM	I'd say if you roll under a third your potential maximum (UNDER a third, not precisely 1/3), then you should be allowed to roll again, meaning anyone with a d12 or d10 HD rerolls 1s, 2s, and 3s, characters with a d8 HD reroll 1s and 2s, and characters with d6 or d4 HD reroll 1's. It saves frustration, especially for fighters and barbarians, but it doesn't upset game balance much (it at all, really). I don't think I've ever met a DM who wouldn't allow someone with a d10 or d12 HD to reroll 1's and 2's for HP.