Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bholdr_mage 09-15-05, 12:43 PM	Ok, I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes explaining the alignments to a new player is not very effiecient to some. So, I've jotted down a few movie/comic book characters/real life characters/myth characters and so on to represent the different alignments so new players can signify with a character they have seen or heard about to base their alignment off of. Tell me what you think. LG : Yoda from star wars. I think he stands out a little more than King Arthur and Mother Theresa. CG : Robin Hood. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. I honestly can't come up with another representation for CG. NG : Legolas from Lord of the Rings. Definitely has some order to his own kind (elves), but doesn't really seem to be an enforcer. Does protect the innocent from evil though. LN : Batman. Especially from Batman Begins. The part when his is fighting Liam Neeson's character toward the end and says, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you!" and leaves him on a train slamming into a building exploding says the main part of a LN character to me. He also takes the law into his own hands, but abides by it. TN : The Oracle from The Matrix. She fits well I think, as she tries to help in a balanced way to see Neo succeed. She does this by riddles and seems to take fate passively. CN : This is a great fit-Captain Jack Sparrow from the Pirates of the Carribean. Definitely doesn't worry about law, and thinks more about himself than others. Doesn't mind helping others as long as he helps himself. LE : Darth Vader from star wars. A bit different version of law than Yoda (Yoda thinks in Law of the universe, while Darth here thinks of Law as in humanity-funny he has a CE leader in plapatine), but he definitely fits the bill. Throughout the movies he has many changes in his alignment-and I'm mainly talking about the end of episode 3 to the middle of episode six (maybe a little before). NE : Magneto from the X-men movies. This was a hard one. But I think he fits more than most villans in this category. He doesn't really seem to care one way or another about civillians, as long as they (the mutnants)are excepted in everyday society. He's definitly evil-I think every one can agree on that one. Again, could be LE but not CE. He trusts his allies where CE doesn't. Anxious to hear better examples on this one. CE : Probably Saddam Heussein (sp?). Another good fit is Dr. Doom. Saddam may fit better as NE, but he does seem to think about himself more than his comrades. Dr. Doom on the otherhand is VERY paranoid, not trusting anything or anyone unless he contorls them. Which is why he uses Doom Bots to take care of every thing for him-and doesn't have many allies because he's betrayed them at one time or another as a true CE villan does. I like the LE, CE, LG, LN, and CN as true fits. Arguments with opinions are welcome-and additional beliefs of alignment representation are welcome as well. This is a thread to have characters better understand their alignments by relating their character with a character that is portrayed as a known movie/book/myth character in the categories we fit our characters in. This would help new characters especially sense they could relate to something rather than a paragraph of explanation of how their character should ACT.
Puca 09-15-05, 01:06 PM	I like the LE, CE, LG, LN, and CN as true fits. Arguments with opinions are welcome-and additional beliefs of alignment representation are welcome as well. This is a thread to have characters better understand their alignments by relating their character with a character that is portrayed as a known movie/book/myth character in the categories we fit our characters in. This would help new characters especially sense they could relate to something rather than a paragraph of explanation of how their character should ACT.While I like arguing alignment, I think that in practice, they are defined by the DM. The best thing to do in my experience with a new players is to just let them pick one, and then see how they actually play. If the DM thinks that the characters behavior is more consistent with neutral than good, he can just explain it to the player and change the entry on his character sheet. This lets the new player learn what alignment is and how the DM sees it without too many real consequences. As long as he isnt playing a cleric or a paladin, this shouldnt be a real issue, and you can steer new players away from character classes with too many alignment issues for a while, until they learn more about the DMs expectations. I think this is better than offering a model, where you can get bogged down in situational behavior and other complications.
CzarGarrett 09-15-05, 01:10 PM	I'd say that's a fairly accurate set of examples. But remember, with the exception of Paladins and Vile/Exalted characters, alignment isn't all that important. LG characters can occasionally lie, cheat, steal, and do harm. CE characters can sometimes follow plans, heal, and nurture. Alignment is more of a general tendency rather than commandments written in stone.
Mirikon 09-15-05, 01:42 PM	For the CE one, I'd probably go with Sabertooth or Mojo instead of Doom. Doom I'd put as either NE or LE. he is a facist, afterall. He is trying to create order in the world. He goes around fighting the Fantastic Four because they work to undermine his order. Sabertooth is a good CE, because he is only out for himself, and he doesn't give a rat's ass about the law. Mojo also fits because anyone who steals people away into an alternate dimension so they can star in his deadly TV shows has to be more than a little chaotic.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-15-05, 02:11 PM	CE : Probably Saddam Heussein (sp?). Don't diss the Saddam. I don't believe in evil. For me there is sanity and insanity. He's definitely sane. ;)
Rulebook 09-15-05, 02:31 PM	few things... Saddam is most certianly LE. he maintained a structure of laws and regulations to benifit himself and his side. the killing wholesale of people still fits his lawful evil role. Batman is CG. He doesnt kill if he can help it, and goes after the badguy without regard for societies laws. Sabretooth is CE. have you ever READ anything with him in it. (unless you're using the Age of Apocalypse sabertooth, in which case he's NG) Venom is as well. Doom is the epitome of Lawful Evil. Mojo is Neutral Evil. He's out only for himself and his entertainment, but he abides by a few regulations and whatnot. Captian America is Lawful Good. So is Superman. no brainers there. Wolverine is Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral (with Good tendancies) Jamie Madrox (Multiple Man... ahh the old days) was Neutral Good. he just liked helping people, without regard to law or chaos. Spider-man fits this alignment as well. The Punisher, is LE. he brutally murders anybody he percives as a villian. he might be LN if you're a hardcore punisher fanboy, but seriously here... Adam Warlock is LN, pure and simple. the man went as far as to expel the good and evil from his soul to remain balanced!
Mirikon 09-15-05, 03:15 PM	I would disagree with Batman being CG. The same reasons why Punisher is Lawful are the same ones that make Batman lawful. The thing that seperates the two is that Batman brutally beats the villians and hands them to the police, and Punisher just shoots them.
Mercurius 09-15-05, 03:33 PM	I would say batman is definitely lawful, or possibly neutral on the law-chaos axis. He's not chaotic. However, I'd like to ask that you remove the MASSIVE SPOILER from your Batman Begins write-up. Sure, any self-respecting human being has seen the movie already, but it's still not polite to just go around airing twists like that.
bholdr_mage 09-15-05, 03:34 PM	I'm talking about maybe a few more characters individuals like females joining a group would relate with. While most people have heard of superman, spiderman, batman and the like, they may not know mojo or even sabretooth. Heck, even I'm not sure about Mojo's character. I know what he looks like, but not his whole character composition. While most of us (i'm married, so i have to) don't volunteer to see chick flicks, a female that is not into the fantasy setting as much might relate to say-Jane Fonda from monster in law, or some other vengeful character in a chick flick or drama. Maybe Braveheart or Gladiator? Perhaps Julius Ceasar or Brutus? Generally every one of the main characters in most well-known movies can fit into an alignment category. I'm looking for a few different examples that fit well in each category-so a new player can base it off of and have an idea how to start playing the way the alignment is supposed to be played. While the idea of playing it and assigning later seems logical to us, we shouldn't or at least I don't want to punish a new player because they aren't playing chaotic enough for their bard or barbarian. Nor would I want to have a character lose paladin-hood or become an ex-druid or an ex-monk because they outstepped their boundaries of the class alignments. I hope some agree that a new player doesn't seem to grasp Lawful Good. Instead of subduing and making an evildoer see justice...they kill. Which could be considered as bad if not worse than the evil one. A Neutral Good character wouldn't have a problem offing Mr. Bad Spellcaster guy, but a Paladin Lawful Goodie two-shoes pants would want to redeem the man, possibly underline the direct problem. A character like Yoda, or King Arthur sets the standard of how to act. Does this mean the character has to be green and walk around with a cane saying, "Try? Try not? There is no try. There is Do or Do Not." or however he talks? No, but it gives those boundaries alignment is supposed to set on the characters actions.
bholdr_mage 09-15-05, 03:42 PM	 Like I said, Batman as portrayed in batman begins, during the final fight. Most heroes at least make some kind of alignment shift at some point. Villans rarely do. Or at least when they do, they stick with it only possible getting more stuck in that specific alignment. But, Batman Chaotic? He has always abided by the law-he might not stop when a police officer turns on his sirens chasing the batmobile, but batman realizes his repretoire of stuff is going to do alot better than the plice officer's megaphone, nightstick, and handgun.
Maraxus 09-15-05, 03:42 PM	Robin Hood is so absolutely lawful, it seeps from his funny hat! 1: He is souverein (sp?) leader of his gang. 2: He has a code of behavior. 3: Most important: He believes in the rightful leadership of King Richard. Badman isn't chaotic good, too. I don't have seen Badman begins but what I heard he is not that good as previous. The old spandex Badman was lawful or neutral good. I think neutral good fits it overall. Examples for chaotic good characters could be: Han Solo (chaotic neutral at the beginning of Episode 4) Maverick Axel Foley (He is the absolute archetype) ...Shrek
Vestigial_Thumb 09-15-05, 03:52 PM	Robin Hood is so absolutely lawful, it seeps from his funny hat! 1: He is souverein (sp?) leader of his gang. 2: He has a code of behavior. 3: Most important: He believes in the rightful leadership of King Richard. If that makes him lawful, then my urge to beat the living daylights enforcers-of-their-own-ideals makes me a psycholocically healthy 17-year-old kid (I am actually 17 yrs old) Badman isn't chaotic good, too. I don't have seen Badman begins but what I heard he is not that good as previous. The old spandex Badman was lawful or neutral good. I think neutral good fits it overall. I think neutral fits him better.
Thorak 09-15-05, 03:55 PM	LN : Batman. Especially from Batman Begins. The part when his is fighting Liam Neeson's character toward the end and says, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you!" and leaves him on a train slamming into a building exploding says the main part of a LN character to me. He also takes the law into his own hands, but abides by it. I disagree. Batman is, if anything, CN. He wiffles all over the alignment scheme depending on which portrayal you mean, even to Lawful Moron in the 1960s TV show and Schumacker movies. But the core character is insane. There's a reason all the Bat's archnemeses are insane and go to an asylum. It is intended to reflect Batman's insanity. Combine with his burning need for vengeance, his complete disregard for due process, and his contempt for pretty much all of Gotham law enforcement except the Commisioner, and you've got an ideal template for chaoticness. And I feel he's too dark and brutal to really qualify as Good, though admittedly it's a balance between two personalities, Bruce and The Bat, one being Good and the other relatively Evil. LE : Darth Vader from star wars. A bit different version of law than Yoda (Yoda thinks in Law of the universe, while Darth here thinks of Law as in humanity-funny he has a CE leader in plapatine), but he definitely fits the bill. Throughout the movies he has many changes in his alignment-and I'm mainly talking about the end of episode 3 to the middle of episode six (maybe a little before). I'd almost say NE instead. He followed laws, but tended to walk his own path if the laws didn't do what he wanted. He saw their purpose, but didn't feel they necessarily applied to him personally. CE : Probably Saddam Heussein (sp?). Another good fit is Dr. Doom. Saddam may fit better as NE, but he does seem to think about himself more than his comrades. Dr. Doom on the otherhand is VERY paranoid, not trusting anything or anyone unless he contorls them. Which is why he uses Doom Bots to take care of every thing for him-and doesn't have many allies because he's betrayed them at one time or another as a true CE villan does. I gotta agree with earlier posters, LE or NE for both, at least. Saddam, especially, was all about using law and order to control others. He used the system. Chaotics break the system.
Maraxus 09-15-05, 04:21 PM	Vestigial_Thumb: I don't really understand what you want to say with the first sentence. About badman: Okay, let's agree, that there are to many badmans to say something about him. Darth Vader ... Remember a philosophy: "I rule because I have the force to do so" ;) is not lawful. Overall, Sith as the general bunch are very chaotic evil (Yes, it is paradox, when an organisation is chaotic but somehow they get it.) I think this very famos scene in with he force-chokes one of his underlings (or whatever they represent), this is a very chaotic evil trait. Probably NE is good.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-15-05, 04:38 PM	Vestigial_Thumb: I don't really understand what you want to say with the first sentence. I think that by the enforcers-yadda-yadda-yadda remark I meant bullies. I become insatiably bloodthirsty when I see someone get beaten up because he wouldn't obey him. I have done nasty things to bullies (my old school was crawling with them), and because I never fight fair (it just doesn't win you the fight) I nearly always subdue them and then they just wish they'd never gotten out of bed that morning. Nipple twisting, rope-binding and other body part maiming gives me a sort of a spiritual fulfilment. This mostly comes from 4th grade when I was a target and suddenly fought back with a vengeance and sent two *******s to the ER (nothing serious mostly cuts and bruises, caused by rock hurling and stick thrusting). I was never touched again :) .
wrecan 09-15-05, 04:45 PM	The problem with picking comic book characters (and Robin Hood) as examples of alignment is that the character's moral structure changes with every change of writer or developer. Sometimes Batman is LG and sometimes he's downright CN or even NE. I also disagree with the Matrix's Oracle being true Neutral. She wanted to save humanity and preserve it and worked, as best she could for that aim before the Architect could figure out what she was doing. She was cryptic because she was manipulative, which doesn't make her non-good. She's NG, I figure. I like using Star Wars characters as examples for newbies because they are archetypal and easily accessible. I do not use the novels -- only the movies. LG: Luke Skywalker. (Respect for authority, desire to risk self for others) NG: Obi Wan Kenobi. (Indifference -- even bemusement -- at authority, desire to risk self for others) CG: Han Solo, after A New Hope. (Disrespect for authority, from princesses to crime lords, desire to risk self for others) LN: Anikin Skywalker, pre-Darth. Respects authority (almost slavishly) and duty and honor, but wants to use his power selfishly over helping others. Doesn't go out of his way to hurt people who don't hurt him or those he loves. TN: Jango and/or Boba Fett. Will work on his own or for authority. Doesn't go out of his way to help or hurt people, but is not adverse to doing so for his own benefit. CN: this is the only one for which I have no good example. Well-drawn CN characters are almost impossible to find. They would be people whose only interest is tearing down restriction and barriers and institutions, who has no respect for tradition or authority, is not willing to sacrifice himself for others and doesn't enjoy inflicting pain on people. The only character I have ever seen that fits this well is Abner Doon from Orson Scott Card's Worthing Saga. LE: Emperor Sidious. Respects institutions and authority and uses them for personal gain. Enjoys inflicting pain on others. NE: Jabba the Hutt. Is an outlaw and has no respect for any institution, even Master Jedi. Works primarily for his own benefit and enjoys inflicting pain on others. CE: Darth Maul. His desire is to tear down authority and to inflict pain on others. He seems to have no desire to install new authority figures of his own and follows orders when it suits his purpose (training, revenge).
mrpopstar 09-15-05, 07:19 PM	bholdr_mage Jane Fonda from monster in law.I am tickled by the fact that I was just enveigled into considering the alignment of Jane Fonda's portrayal of a character in a J. Lo film. :)
Maraxus 09-15-05, 08:40 PM	wrecan: looks good, except for the point: Irg, Mandalorien: Dark side. Jango and Boba Fett may look quite nice next to Count Doku and Darth Vader but still they are quite evil. Boba Fett hunts down people and hands them over to the worst what there is in the galaxie. Just that he does it for money at not for fun does not matter much. I think Lando Calrissian is a good TN character - with chaotic tendencies but I think still on the TN side. Oh right, the droids... C-3PO is lawful to the proton core (lawful neutral?), R2-D2 has strong chaotic tendencies for a machine and also more quite good. Both are not extream, so I would say somewhere between TN and CG.
bholdr_mage 09-16-05, 12:52 AM	Yeah, I'd have to agree with jango and boba fett being evil. They're bounty hunters, which in DND terms, they're assasins and unless your one of those that believes poison use and assasination is neutral, they are just like them. Jabba is a great NE. I like that one much better than Magneto for that alignment. I also agree with TN for Lando-especially in Empire strikes back. But Lando did have a good reason to betray Han-like all of his people living there. I don't think he wanted to be responsible for their deaths. The Ewoks may have to be a really good form of TN-but mostly because they're ignorant of their surroundings. I think we can all agree that Jar-Jar is Extremely Chaotic Stupid. While I agree Star Wars Characters work better in black and white than in comparison to comic book characters, probably because star wars was written by only one individual-there are plenty of movie characters out there. Shrek was already mentioned. How about the cast from toy story, monsters inc, the rest of the matrix (Mr. Smith is definitely CE), Biblical characters, spiderman, his villans (they're pretty one-deminsional when it comes to alignment), other x-men as portrayed in the movies (Pyro would be another sure fire CN)?