Charisma Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charisma Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MonkMachine
03-27-06, 01:30 PM I am starting a new campaign in which i am looking to play a charisma rogue. When i say this i mean taking things like gather information, bluff, forgery, diplomacy, that kinda thing. What i am looking for is something prestige that will allow me to continue on this route. I want to get away from the only rogue i have ever played with (i.e. hide in shadows and backstab sneaker kinda thing) . I do not want to go spymaster either, i do not like that prestige. Any help or ideas would be really appreciated. Thanks.
Dench
03-27-06, 01:37 PM The Disciple of Baalzebul PrC in the book of Vile Darkness can help you, it gets bonuses to skills based on its charisma (it applies its Int bonus as well as his Cha bonus to all Cha-based checks and skills) gives you sneack attack and even suggestion as spell like ability. At level 10th it gains +4 Cha, and many more things.
MonkMachine
03-27-06, 05:25 PM Ok thanks for the suggestion. Open to other suggestions as well, thanks everyone.
legowarrior
03-27-06, 05:33 PM try a spellthief to get more out of your charisma.
Xaxor
03-27-06, 06:44 PM What about the Evangelist out of Complete Divine?
BlaineTog
03-27-06, 06:49 PM Mebe try the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)?
Dench
03-27-06, 09:23 PM What about the Evangelist out of Complete Divine?

A good choice too, but it works better if you are a Bard :)
meatrace
03-27-06, 09:36 PM why don't you just make a monster class for being a Doppleganger :)
whats a better information gatherer than someone who can read minds at will?
otherwise be a Changeling from Ebberon.
or be a Psion(telepath). they get all those cha skills, plus read thoughts and all that sort of fun.
Pandaemoni
03-27-06, 10:20 PM If you play a human and take the Able Learner feat (from Races of Destiny), you can take any high skill point PrC and continue to buy ranks in the Charisma skills on a 1:1 basis whether or not they are "class skills" for the PrC.
ramzafft1
03-27-06, 10:25 PM I personally think Bard is the way to go if you want a CHA-based spy-type.
Jaxgaret
03-27-06, 10:46 PM I personally think Bard is the way to go if you want a CHA-based spy-type.

I second that. Rogue1/BardX with Able Learner.

And then go into the World Speaker PrC. That'll let you communicate with anything. It can be found in Dragon 311.
MonkMachine
03-27-06, 10:49 PM ok, thanks everyone, keep em coming.
Ruhl-Than Sage
03-27-06, 10:59 PM Dread Pirate and Exemplar could both be done pretty well, with a more Charisma based rouge.
Quietus_Silivren
03-28-06, 02:05 AM I am starting a new campaign in which i am looking to play a charisma rogue. When i say this i mean taking things like gather information, bluff, forgery, diplomacy, that kinda thing. What i am looking for is something prestige that will allow me to continue on this route. I want to get away from the only rogue i have ever played with (i.e. hide in shadows and backstab sneaker kinda thing) . I do not want to go spymaster either, i do not like that prestige. Any help or ideas would be really appreciated. Thanks.
So, you want a charisma-based skill-monger/trickster who doesn't hide, sneak, or backstab? I think ramzafft1 nailed this one. It's called the bard. Honestly, all of the skills and functions within a party that you named are right up a bard's alley. Diplomacy is a no-brainer, and the same pretty much goes for bluff, forgery, and gather info. This is why a bard exists. It's what they're actually good at, on top of being a jack(jane)-of-all-trades. You don't have to carry around a lute or harp to be a bard, either. If I recall, there are plenty of non-musical perform skills (oratory?) you can use.
Rulebook
03-28-06, 07:41 AM i like Charisma Rogues. ignore everybody that says a bard does it better, this is a boldfaced lie or misinformed ignorance.

the Charisma Rogue can do all the skill-based checks as well as anybody (and get like -all- of them), and if somethign like diplomacy and the like fails, has a halfway decent ability to dish out damage and run away.

if you ride the class out to lvl 9 at least, you can skill mastery your charisma based skills, and do them on the fly, which is quite interesting sometimes.

i'd reccomend the Exemplar, Evangelist, or even the Divine Champion if you're in Faerun. the skills part suffers, but you get a great roleplaying type and lay on hands! of course i'd personally take the Spymaster though. all the good trickery, plus undetectiable alignment and cover identies!
Osiris Memnoch
03-28-06, 10:45 AM You might also consider the Rogue Varient from Unearthed Arcana that gets bonus feats in place of Sneak Attack if you don't to be a back-stabby kinda rogue. Those bonus feats could be used to amplify skills and the like and just make you more skillful in general (not more skill points per say but more skillful in the non-dnd sense)
MonkMachine
03-28-06, 06:20 PM Sorry, I should clarify things. I want the sneak attack. Basically, im taking improved feint so I would like to keep sneak attack instead of going the bard route. I do not like the idea of coming up behind someone and sneaking them, i would rather do it to there face. I want to portray a somewhat physically weak character who surprises people in melee with his feint/sneak combo. Thanks for all the replies.
Vaalingrade Ashland
03-28-06, 07:25 PM If you're building a silver tongue, you would do best to stay rogue. Take Improved Feint to represent your use of witty reporte in combat and be sure to get a circlet of persuasion as soon as possible.

Bards may be the best tricksters/silver tongues, but a rogue is, appropriately, the best character to use to play the dashing rogue who is an able light combatant who takes on all tasks with an expert eye and a fopish flourish.
Blu Death
03-29-06, 01:28 AM Invisible blade all the way. He makes use of your charisma with his feint skills. He gets sneak attack progression with the dagger only but gains abilities such as feint as a free action (3.0 so maybe it is swift now or whatever you call it) and the ability to take 10 on all bluff rolls when feinting so that, if your score is high enough, you never have to worry about rolling that pesky one and you can still beat most peoples sense motive score!
arjomanes
03-29-06, 01:55 AM Flick of the wrist feat sounds appropriate here.

Also, Force of Personality feat allows you to use charisma modifier instead of wisdom on will saves.
gorfnad the shiznit
03-29-06, 07:43 AM Spymaster and Chameleon might be viable options as well, you would need able learner as well.
MonkMachine
03-29-06, 11:21 AM Ok, umm, where and what is chameleon? Also, I dont really wanna go invisible blade because he loses a lot of skills that i want with this rogue like forgery, sense motive, diplomacy, gather info, that kinda thing. Anyway, thanks for the insights.
CaoSlayer
03-29-06, 11:25 AM free online: (Races of Fate)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
ManTimeForgot
03-29-06, 11:41 AM i like Charisma Rogues. ignore everybody that says a bard does it better, this is a boldfaced lie or misinformed ignorance.

the Charisma Rogue can do all the skill-based checks as well as anybody (and get like -all- of them), and if somethign like diplomacy and the like fails, has a halfway decent ability to dish out damage and run away.

if you ride the class out to lvl 9 at least, you can skill mastery your charisma based skills, and do them on the fly, which is quite interesting sometimes.

i'd reccomend the Exemplar, Evangelist, or even the Divine Champion if you're in Faerun. the skills part suffers, but you get a great roleplaying type and lay on hands! of course i'd personally take the Spymaster though. all the good trickery, plus undetectiable alignment and cover identies!

Charisma rogues are good. Charisma bards are better. This is a simple fact of life. Exactly what does the rogue have that lets him beat out the glibness spell? Oh that's right... Nothing. Bard 1 Rogue 0.

Right so when the rogue fails his diplomacy he resorts to back alley brawler. When a bard fails his diplomacy he resorts to charming/fascinating someone. In short the bard has secondary diplomatic options. Bard 2 Rogue 0.

Exaclty when do you use your charisma based skills in combat? Skill mastery lets you take 10 despite distraction. Have you looked at how long diplomacy takes to accomplish? If you were willing to always take the -10 penalty you could try this tactic in combat, but if things have already degenerated to the point that combat is taking place then its usually time to bust out something more powerful than spending a full round to make someone go from hostile to unfriendly. Still Bard 2 Rogue 0.

And if you are going to focus on skill usage its better to ride out Bard or Rogue straight out. Exemplar and a couple other skill using classes are ok for unique builds but if you are looking for a pure diplomat (Bard) or dashing rogue/light fighter (Rogue), then you are better off staying in the class of your choice. FYI people: Able learner lets you purchase cross class skills at the same cost as class skills, but it does NOT make them class skills. You will still have the cross class limit to the number of ranks you can put into them. Bard 3 Rogue 1 PrCs 0.

MTF
Zetakya
03-29-06, 11:42 AM Take Improved Feint to represent your use of witty reporte in combat and be sure to get a circlet of persuasion as soon as possible.

There are no words for how disgusting you are

Yes there are. You just never learned them.

:bounce:
CaoSlayer
03-29-06, 11:50 AM Another good example of why bards beats anyone else at social interaction are the combination of alter self and speak language as a class skill (or tongues spells).

Any elf rogue would be attacked on sight by a drow group before he can open this mouth while a bard can perefectly turn himself into a drow and ever speak undercommon with lesser troubles.
Votan
03-29-06, 08:21 PM FYI people: Able learner lets you purchase cross class skills at the same cost as class skills, but it does NOT make them class skills. You will still have the cross class limit to the number of ranks you can put into them. Bard 3 Rogue 1 PrCs 0.

From PHB version 3.5 page 59 under "Multiclass characters":

"Skills:If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characters classes then character level determines a skill's maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is character level + 3).
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one half the maximum for a class skill."

So Able Learner changes the cost and having it on any class' class list makes the maximum level +3. So having the feat is massively useful for multi-class characters and it most definitely allows a rogue/invisible blade (for example) to keep diplomacy as high as a single class rogue. Heck, they could do it before the feat but the cost was enormous to buy up the ranks at double cost.
Dench
03-29-06, 09:15 PM And unlike Bards, Rogues don't have the Speak Language skill. Another point of why choose a Cha Bard instead of a Cha Rogue.
ManTimeForgot
03-29-06, 09:34 PM From PHB version 3.5 page 59 under "Multiclass characters":

"Skills:If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characters classes then character level determines a skill's maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is character level + 3).
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one half the maximum for a class skill."

So Able Learner changes the cost and having it on any class' class list makes the maximum level +3. So having the feat is massively useful for multi-class characters and it most definitely allows a rogue/invisible blade (for example) to keep diplomacy as high as a single class rogue. Heck, they could do it before the feat but the cost was enormous to buy up the ranks at double cost.

Wow. I have to say then whoever came up with the Able Learner feat REALLY screwed the pooch. That is insanely powerful. That makes the versatile, education, and cosmopolitan feats look absolutely assinine in comparison. Want your rogue character to have the benefit of education? Take one level of bard and able learner feat. And taking a level of bard as a rogue doesn't hurt much at all... Ridiculous.

I had assumed that the limitations on class skills remained the same between 3.0 and 3.5. Now you don't even have to bother returning to the class you dipped into in order to progress your skills. God if you don't care about higher level bardic music just dip bard and then go off into whatever class you feel like and you can still raise your perform skill...

The able learner feat might as well state you get EVERY skill as a class skill since all you need to do is take a level of rogue or bard depending on which you want, and then you never have to worry about which skills you want to take ever again.

Ridiculous.

MTF
Votan
03-29-06, 10:18 PM Wow. I have to say then whoever came up with the Able Learner feat REALLY screwed the pooch. That is insanely powerful. That makes the versatile, education, and cosmopolitan feats look absolutely assinine in comparison. Want your rogue character to have the benefit of education? Take one level of bard and able learner feat. And taking a level of bard as a rogue doesn't hurt much at all... Ridiculous.

I had assumed that the limitations on class skills remained the same between 3.0 and 3.5. Now you don't even have to bother returning to the class you dipped into in order to progress your skills. God if you don't care about higher level bardic music just dip bard and then go off into whatever class you feel like and you can still raise your perform skill...

The able learner feat might as well state you get EVERY skill as a class skill since all you need to do is take a level of rogue or bard depending on which you want, and then you never have to worry about which skills you want to take ever again.

Ridiculous.

MTF

Able Learner is not perfect -- the need to multiclass to exploit it is a minor penalty. However, it does AMAZING things for making classes work better. In particular, think of how one level of rogue or ranger can make the class skills of a fighter work better. Since you need to be a human (basically) to take it, it makes human better as well as making things like:

Ranger 1/Fighter 18/Barbarian 1
Rogue 4/Fighter 16

work exceptionally well.

But it was the feat in the book Races of Destiny that every member of my gaming group independently looked at and said "Wow, just wow!".

The Human paragon ability was a lot more like what I'd have expected as being a reasonable feat -- payu one feat for 1 or 2 clas skills was an option that I alwasy wanted in core as it made a lot of character concepts work much better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MonkMachine 03-27-06, 01:30 PM	I am starting a new campaign in which i am looking to play a charisma rogue. When i say this i mean taking things like gather information, bluff, forgery, diplomacy, that kinda thing. What i am looking for is something prestige that will allow me to continue on this route. I want to get away from the only rogue i have ever played with (i.e. hide in shadows and backstab sneaker kinda thing) . I do not want to go spymaster either, i do not like that prestige. Any help or ideas would be really appreciated. Thanks.
Dench 03-27-06, 01:37 PM	The Disciple of Baalzebul PrC in the book of Vile Darkness can help you, it gets bonuses to skills based on its charisma (it applies its Int bonus as well as his Cha bonus to all Cha-based checks and skills) gives you sneack attack and even suggestion as spell like ability. At level 10th it gains +4 Cha, and many more things.
MonkMachine 03-27-06, 05:25 PM	Ok thanks for the suggestion. Open to other suggestions as well, thanks everyone.
legowarrior 03-27-06, 05:33 PM	try a spellthief to get more out of your charisma.
Xaxor 03-27-06, 06:44 PM	What about the Evangelist out of Complete Divine?
BlaineTog 03-27-06, 06:49 PM	Mebe try the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)?
Dench 03-27-06, 09:23 PM	What about the Evangelist out of Complete Divine? A good choice too, but it works better if you are a Bard :)
meatrace 03-27-06, 09:36 PM	why don't you just make a monster class for being a Doppleganger :) whats a better information gatherer than someone who can read minds at will? otherwise be a Changeling from Ebberon. or be a Psion(telepath). they get all those cha skills, plus read thoughts and all that sort of fun.
Pandaemoni 03-27-06, 10:20 PM	If you play a human and take the Able Learner feat (from Races of Destiny), you can take any high skill point PrC and continue to buy ranks in the Charisma skills on a 1:1 basis whether or not they are "class skills" for the PrC.
ramzafft1 03-27-06, 10:25 PM	I personally think Bard is the way to go if you want a CHA-based spy-type.
Jaxgaret 03-27-06, 10:46 PM	I personally think Bard is the way to go if you want a CHA-based spy-type. I second that. Rogue1/BardX with Able Learner. And then go into the World Speaker PrC. That'll let you communicate with anything. It can be found in Dragon 311.
MonkMachine 03-27-06, 10:49 PM	ok, thanks everyone, keep em coming.
Ruhl-Than Sage 03-27-06, 10:59 PM	Dread Pirate and Exemplar could both be done pretty well, with a more Charisma based rouge.
Quietus_Silivren 03-28-06, 02:05 AM	I am starting a new campaign in which i am looking to play a charisma rogue. When i say this i mean taking things like gather information, bluff, forgery, diplomacy, that kinda thing. What i am looking for is something prestige that will allow me to continue on this route. I want to get away from the only rogue i have ever played with (i.e. hide in shadows and backstab sneaker kinda thing) . I do not want to go spymaster either, i do not like that prestige. Any help or ideas would be really appreciated. Thanks. So, you want a charisma-based skill-monger/trickster who doesn't hide, sneak, or backstab? I think ramzafft1 nailed this one. It's called the bard. Honestly, all of the skills and functions within a party that you named are right up a bard's alley. Diplomacy is a no-brainer, and the same pretty much goes for bluff, forgery, and gather info. This is why a bard exists. It's what they're actually good at, on top of being a jack(jane)-of-all-trades. You don't have to carry around a lute or harp to be a bard, either. If I recall, there are plenty of non-musical perform skills (oratory?) you can use.
Rulebook 03-28-06, 07:41 AM	i like Charisma Rogues. ignore everybody that says a bard does it better, this is a boldfaced lie or misinformed ignorance. the Charisma Rogue can do all the skill-based checks as well as anybody (and get like -all- of them), and if somethign like diplomacy and the like fails, has a halfway decent ability to dish out damage and run away. if you ride the class out to lvl 9 at least, you can skill mastery your charisma based skills, and do them on the fly, which is quite interesting sometimes. i'd reccomend the Exemplar, Evangelist, or even the Divine Champion if you're in Faerun. the skills part suffers, but you get a great roleplaying type and lay on hands! of course i'd personally take the Spymaster though. all the good trickery, plus undetectiable alignment and cover identies!
Osiris Memnoch 03-28-06, 10:45 AM	You might also consider the Rogue Varient from Unearthed Arcana that gets bonus feats in place of Sneak Attack if you don't to be a back-stabby kinda rogue. Those bonus feats could be used to amplify skills and the like and just make you more skillful in general (not more skill points per say but more skillful in the non-dnd sense)
MonkMachine 03-28-06, 06:20 PM	Sorry, I should clarify things. I want the sneak attack. Basically, im taking improved feint so I would like to keep sneak attack instead of going the bard route. I do not like the idea of coming up behind someone and sneaking them, i would rather do it to there face. I want to portray a somewhat physically weak character who surprises people in melee with his feint/sneak combo. Thanks for all the replies.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-28-06, 07:25 PM	If you're building a silver tongue, you would do best to stay rogue. Take Improved Feint to represent your use of witty reporte in combat and be sure to get a circlet of persuasion as soon as possible. Bards may be the best tricksters/silver tongues, but a rogue is, appropriately, the best character to use to play the dashing rogue who is an able light combatant who takes on all tasks with an expert eye and a fopish flourish.
Blu Death 03-29-06, 01:28 AM	Invisible blade all the way. He makes use of your charisma with his feint skills. He gets sneak attack progression with the dagger only but gains abilities such as feint as a free action (3.0 so maybe it is swift now or whatever you call it) and the ability to take 10 on all bluff rolls when feinting so that, if your score is high enough, you never have to worry about rolling that pesky one and you can still beat most peoples sense motive score!
arjomanes 03-29-06, 01:55 AM	Flick of the wrist feat sounds appropriate here. Also, Force of Personality feat allows you to use charisma modifier instead of wisdom on will saves.
gorfnad the shiznit 03-29-06, 07:43 AM	Spymaster and Chameleon might be viable options as well, you would need able learner as well.
MonkMachine 03-29-06, 11:21 AM	Ok, umm, where and what is chameleon? Also, I dont really wanna go invisible blade because he loses a lot of skills that i want with this rogue like forgery, sense motive, diplomacy, gather info, that kinda thing. Anyway, thanks for the insights.
CaoSlayer 03-29-06, 11:25 AM	free online: (Races of Fate) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
ManTimeForgot 03-29-06, 11:41 AM	i like Charisma Rogues. ignore everybody that says a bard does it better, this is a boldfaced lie or misinformed ignorance. the Charisma Rogue can do all the skill-based checks as well as anybody (and get like -all- of them), and if somethign like diplomacy and the like fails, has a halfway decent ability to dish out damage and run away. if you ride the class out to lvl 9 at least, you can skill mastery your charisma based skills, and do them on the fly, which is quite interesting sometimes. i'd reccomend the Exemplar, Evangelist, or even the Divine Champion if you're in Faerun. the skills part suffers, but you get a great roleplaying type and lay on hands! of course i'd personally take the Spymaster though. all the good trickery, plus undetectiable alignment and cover identies! Charisma rogues are good. Charisma bards are better. This is a simple fact of life. Exactly what does the rogue have that lets him beat out the glibness spell? Oh that's right... Nothing. Bard 1 Rogue 0. Right so when the rogue fails his diplomacy he resorts to back alley brawler. When a bard fails his diplomacy he resorts to charming/fascinating someone. In short the bard has secondary diplomatic options. Bard 2 Rogue 0. Exaclty when do you use your charisma based skills in combat? Skill mastery lets you take 10 despite distraction. Have you looked at how long diplomacy takes to accomplish? If you were willing to always take the -10 penalty you could try this tactic in combat, but if things have already degenerated to the point that combat is taking place then its usually time to bust out something more powerful than spending a full round to make someone go from hostile to unfriendly. Still Bard 2 Rogue 0. And if you are going to focus on skill usage its better to ride out Bard or Rogue straight out. Exemplar and a couple other skill using classes are ok for unique builds but if you are looking for a pure diplomat (Bard) or dashing rogue/light fighter (Rogue), then you are better off staying in the class of your choice. FYI people: Able learner lets you purchase cross class skills at the same cost as class skills, but it does NOT make them class skills. You will still have the cross class limit to the number of ranks you can put into them. Bard 3 Rogue 1 PrCs 0. MTF
Zetakya 03-29-06, 11:42 AM	Take Improved Feint to represent your use of witty reporte in combat and be sure to get a circlet of persuasion as soon as possible. There are no words for how disgusting you are Yes there are. You just never learned them. :bounce:
CaoSlayer 03-29-06, 11:50 AM	Another good example of why bards beats anyone else at social interaction are the combination of alter self and speak language as a class skill (or tongues spells). Any elf rogue would be attacked on sight by a drow group before he can open this mouth while a bard can perefectly turn himself into a drow and ever speak undercommon with lesser troubles.
Votan 03-29-06, 08:21 PM	FYI people: Able learner lets you purchase cross class skills at the same cost as class skills, but it does NOT make them class skills. You will still have the cross class limit to the number of ranks you can put into them. Bard 3 Rogue 1 PrCs 0. From PHB version 3.5 page 59 under "Multiclass characters": "Skills:If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characters classes then character level determines a skill's maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is character level + 3). If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one half the maximum for a class skill." So Able Learner changes the cost and having it on any class' class list makes the maximum level +3. So having the feat is massively useful for multi-class characters and it most definitely allows a rogue/invisible blade (for example) to keep diplomacy as high as a single class rogue. Heck, they could do it before the feat but the cost was enormous to buy up the ranks at double cost.
Dench 03-29-06, 09:15 PM	And unlike Bards, Rogues don't have the Speak Language skill. Another point of why choose a Cha Bard instead of a Cha Rogue.
ManTimeForgot 03-29-06, 09:34 PM	From PHB version 3.5 page 59 under "Multiclass characters": "Skills:If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characters classes then character level determines a skill's maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is character level + 3). If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one half the maximum for a class skill." So Able Learner changes the cost and having it on any class' class list makes the maximum level +3. So having the feat is massively useful for multi-class characters and it most definitely allows a rogue/invisible blade (for example) to keep diplomacy as high as a single class rogue. Heck, they could do it before the feat but the cost was enormous to buy up the ranks at double cost. Wow. I have to say then whoever came up with the Able Learner feat REALLY screwed the pooch. That is insanely powerful. That makes the versatile, education, and cosmopolitan feats look absolutely assinine in comparison. Want your rogue character to have the benefit of education? Take one level of bard and able learner feat. And taking a level of bard as a rogue doesn't hurt much at all... Ridiculous. I had assumed that the limitations on class skills remained the same between 3.0 and 3.5. Now you don't even have to bother returning to the class you dipped into in order to progress your skills. God if you don't care about higher level bardic music just dip bard and then go off into whatever class you feel like and you can still raise your perform skill... The able learner feat might as well state you get EVERY skill as a class skill since all you need to do is take a level of rogue or bard depending on which you want, and then you never have to worry about which skills you want to take ever again. Ridiculous. MTF
Votan 03-29-06, 10:18 PM	Wow. I have to say then whoever came up with the Able Learner feat REALLY screwed the pooch. That is insanely powerful. That makes the versatile, education, and cosmopolitan feats look absolutely assinine in comparison. Want your rogue character to have the benefit of education? Take one level of bard and able learner feat. And taking a level of bard as a rogue doesn't hurt much at all... Ridiculous. I had assumed that the limitations on class skills remained the same between 3.0 and 3.5. Now you don't even have to bother returning to the class you dipped into in order to progress your skills. God if you don't care about higher level bardic music just dip bard and then go off into whatever class you feel like and you can still raise your perform skill... The able learner feat might as well state you get EVERY skill as a class skill since all you need to do is take a level of rogue or bard depending on which you want, and then you never have to worry about which skills you want to take ever again. Ridiculous. MTF Able Learner is not perfect -- the need to multiclass to exploit it is a minor penalty. However, it does AMAZING things for making classes work better. In particular, think of how one level of rogue or ranger can make the class skills of a fighter work better. Since you need to be a human (basically) to take it, it makes human better as well as making things like: Ranger 1/Fighter 18/Barbarian 1 Rogue 4/Fighter 16 work exceptionally well. But it was the feat in the book Races of Destiny that every member of my gaming group independently looked at and said "Wow, just wow!". The Human paragon ability was a lot more like what I'd have expected as being a reasonable feat -- payu one feat for 1 or 2 clas skills was an option that I alwasy wanted in core as it made a lot of character concepts work much better.