Charm-proof fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm-proof fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JeanValJean
09-27-04, 03:35 AM How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed?

I've GMed three campaigns and played in 4 [These don't count the short ones, these are only the 10 * 4 hour session plus games] and every time my magic users charm all the fighters in sight, or my fighters get charmed in turn.

How do you manage to prevent this aside from relying on casters who may be, you know, busy at the time trying not to die?
Thermanshs (backup ed.)
09-27-04, 04:48 AM I think you haven't noticed that charming an enemy while in combat gives him a further +5 to his save against the charm.Despites,charm person is too low a spell to be much of a trouble to you.If you want more resistance to charm just pick a dwarf or elf (the first gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and the latter the same bonus for enchantments) Do you still keep getting charmed? Then a fighter has many feat slots to pick an iron will! when a raging barbarian gains a further +2 bonus on will saves (+3 at 11th lvl and +4 at 20th)
Moreover you can always buy a cape of resistance, their costs being relatively cheap compared to flashy swords and stuff... ;)
Not that bad huh?
Zelphi
09-27-04, 06:21 AM Well if the mages were intelligent they'd cast protection from spells, protection from <alignment> that benefit the entire party. In the same way they'd protect themselves from effects like death or fort saves, they can protect others from their own weaknesses.
CzarGarrett
09-27-04, 08:51 AM Iron Will
higher Wis
Cloak/Brooches of Resistance
That Owl spell (the plus 1d4 + X to Wis)
Dwarf or Elf
Get a wizard to make a Helm of Charm Protection or something like that
ninjarabbit
09-27-04, 09:19 AM 3 levels of Holy Liberator.
Elspooky
09-27-04, 12:50 PM How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed?

Might not help you out overmuch, but I play a fighter in our current campaign who's virtually charm- and dominate-proof.

If you're in a Forgotten Realms setting, half-outsiders become available [such as Genesai, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc.] -- as a part-outsider, they are immune to "person" spells such as Hold Person, Charm Person, and Dominate Person.

My Air Genesai fighter [who doesn't need to breathe and can levitate as a spell-like ability, which has saved his bacon a couple of times] has gone up against vampires a couple of times with relative impunity since he can't be dominated. However, the LA+1 is hard for most folks to stomach. I did it mostly for flavor.

This also means that beautiful spells like Enlarge Person aren't workable, though, but you've gotta take the bad with the good ;)

As Thermanshs said, a Cloak of Resistance can also be a fighter's best friend...
Tony Vargas
09-27-04, 03:47 PM You can cover the fighter's relative weakness in will saves in a number of ways:

Race: a few give you save bonuses.

Decent WIS: at least, don't accept a penalty here.

Iron Will: A +2 Will save is the same as a 'good' save at 1st level, and you're only 4 behind at 20th.

Multi-classing: One level of a good-WILL-save class gives you a +2.

Items: Cloak of Resistance isn't the most expensive thing out there by a long shot.

Allies: There are a number of spells and abilities that can be used to give the whole party, or the fighter specifically, boosts to saves in general, or will saves, in particular. Protection from Evil trumps /Dominate/ for instance, and higher level spells offer greater and broader protection.
ElvenEnigma
09-27-04, 05:32 PM You might want to buy a Ring of Counterspelling. Have a wizard/sorc friend cast Charm/Dominate/Hold in the ring for you. It won't protect you repeatedly, but it will let you last longer of your own free will. If you have more money though why not buy a pale lavender ioun stone? That'll protect you for quite sometime even if you aren't aware of it.

Peace
TheEnforcer
09-27-04, 06:07 PM Or how about a ring of spell turning?
amoeba
09-27-04, 06:41 PM Or how about a ring of spell turning?

Too many versions of enchantments.

I found that levels in occult slayer does the trick.
JeanValJean
09-27-04, 08:04 PM To everyone in General:

NO SPELLS FOR FIGHTER DEFENSE PLEASE

Thermanshs
I think that a lot of this stuff covers, but the problem is that the enchanters that are smart always take Combat Charm (The modifiers are gone) and the really smart ones get the charm off before combat.

Zelphi
Also: I'm talking about busy mages that can't always keep protection spells up. They STILL only last 1 round or 1 minute per level so it's not feasible in a combat where the charms go up within 2 rounds, or later on in the combat. A high init gets rid of all that.

Anyway: I don't always have mages in my party, and I'm trying to find a way for a fighter to resist charm without a wizard help, so no spells, please.

To Everyone in General Again
Even on a good day, the fighter, who has to get stuff into Str, Dex, Con, can't afford more than a 10 in wisdom especially if he wants skill points. So that's not really reasonable.

Also, even at first the DCs for a non-Echantment spell focus enchanter is anywhere from 14 to 16, depending on the class and race. With spell focus and enchanter it's 15 to 18.

I don't know PrCs and fighter feats, but with Iron will, your fighter still only has a +2 to +4 even until 6th level. Which means that you have to roll a 15 or better on average. That's a 25% chance of saving against a 1st level spell when you're on your own against a mage.

Even at higher level, it seems like fighters are utterly dependent on magic users to protect them against even lower level spells, especially with heighten. Charm person becomes a 5th level spell which ups the DCS to 18 to 24 depending on how tought the guy is, even with a fighter being maxxed out, he still has to roll 10 to 15 on average. 50 to 25%.

I don't like those odds.

To Elspooky:
The outsider is good, it's something I've seen used to great advantage in low levels. Thanks for reminding me, it's one I'll pick up again. :-p

There is a question though: Once you get Charm Monster it tends to be game over all over again, do you have any experience with dealing with this?

Also: Does the Dominate work as only Dominate Person? I don't have my book anymore (see below), so could use some specifics on how well the outsider thing works (I played an Imaskar with the Otherwordly feat, so I know how it works per se, but don't know about what exact spells he manages to defy).

Ninjarabbit and amoeba
I don't know Occult Slayer or Holy Liberator anymore (Haven't gmed in 6 months and so I gave my brother all my books), how do those work?

Elvenenigma
I'm not familiar with the Blue Ioun, what exactly does it grant? I'm more a traditionalist in items [Nothing but staves, books, rods, etc], none of even my highest level mages had the little beasties hovering around their brows.

To Everyone in General Again

And, most importantly:

I'm looking for a way a fighter, pure fighter, on his lonesome in an uncaring world, can resist charms the way that a mage or cleric or paladin can. Especially since all of these classes have either high will or wis as a target stat.

Even in good situations, the mages I play with prefer to cast on themselves (Look out for #1!) before me, and on good days they tend to get surprised in combat and so can't cast Prot from evil until combat begins, so endgame can be in the first 3 rounds of an encounter.

Please more, this is already very helpful.
Tony Vargas
09-27-04, 08:20 PM To a certain extent, wanting a pure-class fighter to succeed on WILL saves without ever being dependent on casters, is a bit like wanting your 1st level wiz to stand up to melee without the help of some fighters. Fighters have poor will saves, wizards have d4 HD... you gotta rely on eachother to an extent.

If you're using point buy, it sometimes pays to eschew higher stats (18's particularly) in favor of having more stats at 12 or 14 instead of 8 or 10... it /does/ depend on the character, but, if you want to shore up your weaknesses, you may have to skimp on your strengths a bit, too. So, avoid 8 WIS, get a 12 if you can...

I think you're overestimating DCs slightly. A 15 save on a 1st level spell would require an 18 caster stat. A magic item of a 1st level spell has a DC of 11. You're more likely to face DCs closer to the later at 1st level. Obviously, every couple of levels, DCs'll go up 1, as higher level spells come into play.
Elspooky
09-27-04, 09:39 PM To Elspooky:
The outsider is good, it's something I've seen used to great advantage in low levels. Thanks for reminding me, it's one I'll pick up again. :-p

There is a question though: Once you get Charm Monster it tends to be game over all over again, do you have any experience with dealing with this?

Also: Does the Dominate work as only Dominate Person? I don't have my book anymore (see below), so could use some specifics on how well the outsider thing works (I played an Imaskar with the Otherwordly feat, so I know how it works per se, but don't know about what exact spells he manages to defy).
but staves, books, rods, etc], none of even my highest level mages had the little beasties hovering around their brows.

Both Charm and Dominate have their "Monster" flavors...

In the case of Dominate Monster, though, it's a 9th level spell (and let's face it, I'd rather a 17th level enemy caster pulled out one of those than something else) ;)

Charm Monster is 4th level, so yep, that'll come up from time-to-time. How do I handle it? Hope my Cloak of Resistance is up to the task ;) The one time it's come up I was able to make my save.

An outsider archetype (Genesai especially) is very nice at low levels, I couldn't agree more. Not needing to breathe as an Air Genesai means inhaled poisons and spores (as well as the occasional water-filled-trap) are irrelevant, and with levitate once per day means that rickety bridges are a snap. All of these have come up from time-to-time. I like to think of is as a "bat utility belt".

I'm not familiar with the race/feat you mentioned, sorry 'bout that. With an outsider, you're essentially not a valid target for a "person" spell (i.e., Charm Person, Dominate Person, Hold Person, etc. requires a humanoid target, and you're a outsider not a humanoid). In other words, any spell with "person" in the title, essentially. This has been rump-saving more than a few times, especially when the Hold Person spells are flying around the battlefield.
The Club
09-27-04, 10:41 PM How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed?

I've GMed three campaigns and played in 4 [These don't count the short ones, these are only the 10 * 4 hour session plus games] and every time my magic users charm all the fighters in sight, or my fighters get charmed in turn.

How do you manage to prevent this aside from relying on casters who may be, you know, busy at the time trying not to die?

The vastly underrated Protection from Evil spell. Per spell description, "...blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchanment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

If the spell casters are too busy to protect and buff the meat shields, the party's in for some trouble, anyway. That said, I'm not aware of any reason an amulet or other magic item couldn't be made with a permanent Protection from Evil effect. It's only a first level spell. Wouldn't that mean it costs about 4000 gp to make (and I'm out on a limb guessing here)? Anyway, an ongoing Protection from Evil would at least shut down enchantment spells with ongoing mental influence effects.

The Club
IceFractal
09-28-04, 12:19 AM Yes, an amulet of protection from evil would cost 4,000 gp (or 2,000 gp in 3.0), furthermore, if you just wanted the possession blocking effect and not the AC or save benefit you could probably get it for half price. Its quite a good buy for those low will save juggernaughts.
the Horc
09-28-04, 12:23 AM Get an item that grants continuous protection from Alignment. Although they are not standard issue... I have to ask why not? I'd see a fairly large market for those things, and cheap too (as far as magic items go)
JeanValJean
09-28-04, 12:38 AM To a certain extent, wanting a pure-class fighter to succeed on WILL saves without ever being dependent on casters, is a bit like wanting your 1st level wiz to stand up to melee without the help of some fighters. Fighters have poor will saves, wizards have d4 HD... you gotta rely on eachother to an extent.

You see I don't want the wizard to stand up in melee, he can stand up in combat already (Sleep + Charm usually will give a caster anything he needs except against undead) and has a wide variety of extra-combat skills to support himself.

This is a first level spell, isn't a fighter NOT supposed to be afraid of it?
RIPlicator
09-28-04, 06:10 AM No more than a mage is afraid of taking a critical. Pure fighters can not stand Will saves alone for high spells. But as mentioned above, the items can. Additionally there is Iron Will, and never forget Luck Feat (+1 Luck on all Saves and AC) which in my oppinion is very important for Fighters.
Zelphi
09-28-04, 06:19 AM Or strong soul.

Why are charms such a problem for you? You seem to be overplaying their effectiveness, especially in battle.

They aren't domination effects and they can be easily broken. Other than that you are simply stuck with the standard methods.
RIPlicator
09-28-04, 06:39 AM Double Post
angryman
09-28-04, 09:32 AM Fine, I see what you want...
-Play a dex-based fighter, (or better, ranger) take improved initiative and use a bow. Win initiative, hold your action to attack the mage as he's casting. No tricksy "magic" here...
- Or play a stealthy character. You can't charm what you can't see.
- Close to melee range quickly and grapple. Wear armour spikes.
- When you see a tricksy mage, tell him you want to parlay. You don't need diplomacy or bluff, you just need to buy some time. When he's within charging distance...
- Accept that Will saves are a weakness inherent in fighters and suck it up. It's better to capitalise on strengths than try to offset weaknesses.
Tony Vargas
09-28-04, 12:53 PM This is a first level spell, isn't a fighter NOT supposed to be afraid of it?

At 1st level, a 1st level spell should have a darn good chance of defeating a 1st level fighter, afterall, a single arrow has a darn good chance of defeating a 1st level wizard - and you can have a lot more arrows than spells...
thinkhard
09-28-04, 01:34 PM Yeah i kind of think this is a min-maxing question more than it is an issue of class builds.

It's like...i want a guy with HP and BAB too kill stuff, and also be unaffected by charm!

Say goodbie to the paper-rock-scissors effect of combat. Effectively, every character is supposed to have his weakness. And if your DM constnantly prays on the weaknesses of a party just cuz he can, then he's not a very nice DM.

The game is supposed to be fun.
JeanValJean
09-29-04, 09:19 PM I'm not even going there with sleep. The trick is that with mage armor, sleep, shield, and charm a 1st level wizard can kill a 1st level fighter (who has comparable AC at first level, since the fighter and the mage's secondary skill is always Dex, they theoretically should be exactly the same), and that's not counting the additional functionality at later levels (Don't get me started about true strike [+20 insight bonus] and expeditious retreat [Faster than a fighter on a horse]).

I mean: I want a fighter who can rule the battlefield (Like he's supposed to do) at lower levels, I'm not even asking about higher level spells, just charm since it's the most annoying thing possible to do, and since modern Charm allows you to turn a fighter against his compatriots (Thus the additional +5 save).

Oh, and isn't using weaknesses against the party and party using weaknesses against monsters called "tactics"? Is it suddenly against the rules for the NPCs and monsters to be intelligent?

All things considered it seems to be an issue of the fighter having to take imp-init, blooded and every other init thing that stacks and hoping that he gets a good roll and kills the wizard in one hit, because even with iron will a competent mage charms him or puts him to sleep, especially if the mage is an enchanter(Since wizards are supposed to prepare for encounters).

Please show me how I'm wrong, this is one of my biggest frustrations: Out of my 3 paladins 2 have been charmed and forced to violate their alignments (1 in old 2nd ed, the one in 3rd was convinced that someone was "evil" and so killed an innocent: The last was designed to never fail a saving throw ever). The old saw of "the mages should help" doesn't help the fighter when he gets charmed because they forget to renew a protection spell or don't get one off fast enough.

The permanent "aura of protection against evil" sounds really like cheese, like the quickened True Strike, so explain to me how they're not similar or I'm sorry but I'm not going to bite.

I got so tired of being charmed that I created an "otherworldly" Deep Imaskari (He gets the Outsider Template, but his home plane is Faerun) Diviner Mage who always readied a spell of "protection from evil" for his halfling rogue counterpart (Because I, unlike many of the people I've played with, am a team player). Even still, I always lived in fear that one spell would get through.

The thing is that I often adventure with selfish casters and would like a fighter who could survive just charm greater than a 50% chance when the casters decide that they need the protection a little bit more than I do (Which, in the case where evil fighters attack the mages first, is OFTEN).

Note: FYI, I tend to live in wilderness and dungeon crawling campaigns with a lot of random encounters capped by a few preparable "boss battles." This may help with the context.

Please post.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JeanValJean 09-27-04, 03:35 AM	How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed? I've GMed three campaigns and played in 4 [These don't count the short ones, these are only the 10 * 4 hour session plus games] and every time my magic users charm all the fighters in sight, or my fighters get charmed in turn. How do you manage to prevent this aside from relying on casters who may be, you know, busy at the time trying not to die?
Thermanshs (backup ed.) 09-27-04, 04:48 AM	I think you haven't noticed that charming an enemy while in combat gives him a further +5 to his save against the charm.Despites,charm person is too low a spell to be much of a trouble to you.If you want more resistance to charm just pick a dwarf or elf (the first gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and the latter the same bonus for enchantments) Do you still keep getting charmed? Then a fighter has many feat slots to pick an iron will! when a raging barbarian gains a further +2 bonus on will saves (+3 at 11th lvl and +4 at 20th) Moreover you can always buy a cape of resistance, their costs being relatively cheap compared to flashy swords and stuff... ;) Not that bad huh?
Zelphi 09-27-04, 06:21 AM	Well if the mages were intelligent they'd cast protection from spells, protection from <alignment> that benefit the entire party. In the same way they'd protect themselves from effects like death or fort saves, they can protect others from their own weaknesses.
CzarGarrett 09-27-04, 08:51 AM	Iron Will higher Wis Cloak/Brooches of Resistance That Owl spell (the plus 1d4 + X to Wis) Dwarf or Elf Get a wizard to make a Helm of Charm Protection or something like that
ninjarabbit 09-27-04, 09:19 AM	3 levels of Holy Liberator.
Elspooky 09-27-04, 12:50 PM	How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed? Might not help you out overmuch, but I play a fighter in our current campaign who's virtually charm- and dominate-proof. If you're in a Forgotten Realms setting, half-outsiders become available [such as Genesai, Tieflings, Aasimar, etc.] -- as a part-outsider, they are immune to "person" spells such as Hold Person, Charm Person, and Dominate Person. My Air Genesai fighter [who doesn't need to breathe and can levitate as a spell-like ability, which has saved his bacon a couple of times] has gone up against vampires a couple of times with relative impunity since he can't be dominated. However, the LA+1 is hard for most folks to stomach. I did it mostly for flavor. This also means that beautiful spells like Enlarge Person aren't workable, though, but you've gotta take the bad with the good ;) As Thermanshs said, a Cloak of Resistance can also be a fighter's best friend...
Tony Vargas 09-27-04, 03:47 PM	You can cover the fighter's relative weakness in will saves in a number of ways: Race: a few give you save bonuses. Decent WIS: at least, don't accept a penalty here. Iron Will: A +2 Will save is the same as a 'good' save at 1st level, and you're only 4 behind at 20th. Multi-classing: One level of a good-WILL-save class gives you a +2. Items: Cloak of Resistance isn't the most expensive thing out there by a long shot. Allies: There are a number of spells and abilities that can be used to give the whole party, or the fighter specifically, boosts to saves in general, or will saves, in particular. Protection from Evil trumps /Dominate/ for instance, and higher level spells offer greater and broader protection.
ElvenEnigma 09-27-04, 05:32 PM	You might want to buy a Ring of Counterspelling. Have a wizard/sorc friend cast Charm/Dominate/Hold in the ring for you. It won't protect you repeatedly, but it will let you last longer of your own free will. If you have more money though why not buy a pale lavender ioun stone? That'll protect you for quite sometime even if you aren't aware of it. Peace
TheEnforcer 09-27-04, 06:07 PM	Or how about a ring of spell turning?
amoeba 09-27-04, 06:41 PM	Or how about a ring of spell turning? Too many versions of enchantments. I found that levels in occult slayer does the trick.
JeanValJean 09-27-04, 08:04 PM	To everyone in General: NO SPELLS FOR FIGHTER DEFENSE PLEASE Thermanshs I think that a lot of this stuff covers, but the problem is that the enchanters that are smart always take Combat Charm (The modifiers are gone) and the really smart ones get the charm off before combat. Zelphi Also: I'm talking about busy mages that can't always keep protection spells up. They STILL only last 1 round or 1 minute per level so it's not feasible in a combat where the charms go up within 2 rounds, or later on in the combat. A high init gets rid of all that. Anyway: I don't always have mages in my party, and I'm trying to find a way for a fighter to resist charm without a wizard help, so no spells, please. To Everyone in General Again Even on a good day, the fighter, who has to get stuff into Str, Dex, Con, can't afford more than a 10 in wisdom especially if he wants skill points. So that's not really reasonable. Also, even at first the DCs for a non-Echantment spell focus enchanter is anywhere from 14 to 16, depending on the class and race. With spell focus and enchanter it's 15 to 18. I don't know PrCs and fighter feats, but with Iron will, your fighter still only has a +2 to +4 even until 6th level. Which means that you have to roll a 15 or better on average. That's a 25% chance of saving against a 1st level spell when you're on your own against a mage. Even at higher level, it seems like fighters are utterly dependent on magic users to protect them against even lower level spells, especially with heighten. Charm person becomes a 5th level spell which ups the DCS to 18 to 24 depending on how tought the guy is, even with a fighter being maxxed out, he still has to roll 10 to 15 on average. 50 to 25%. I don't like those odds. To Elspooky: The outsider is good, it's something I've seen used to great advantage in low levels. Thanks for reminding me, it's one I'll pick up again. :-p There is a question though: Once you get Charm Monster it tends to be game over all over again, do you have any experience with dealing with this? Also: Does the Dominate work as only Dominate Person? I don't have my book anymore (see below), so could use some specifics on how well the outsider thing works (I played an Imaskar with the Otherwordly feat, so I know how it works per se, but don't know about what exact spells he manages to defy). Ninjarabbit and amoeba I don't know Occult Slayer or Holy Liberator anymore (Haven't gmed in 6 months and so I gave my brother all my books), how do those work? Elvenenigma I'm not familiar with the Blue Ioun, what exactly does it grant? I'm more a traditionalist in items [Nothing but staves, books, rods, etc], none of even my highest level mages had the little beasties hovering around their brows. To Everyone in General Again And, most importantly: I'm looking for a way a fighter, pure fighter, on his lonesome in an uncaring world, can resist charms the way that a mage or cleric or paladin can. Especially since all of these classes have either high will or wis as a target stat. Even in good situations, the mages I play with prefer to cast on themselves (Look out for #1!) before me, and on good days they tend to get surprised in combat and so can't cast Prot from evil until combat begins, so endgame can be in the first 3 rounds of an encounter. Please more, this is already very helpful.
Tony Vargas 09-27-04, 08:20 PM	To a certain extent, wanting a pure-class fighter to succeed on WILL saves without ever being dependent on casters, is a bit like wanting your 1st level wiz to stand up to melee without the help of some fighters. Fighters have poor will saves, wizards have d4 HD... you gotta rely on eachother to an extent. If you're using point buy, it sometimes pays to eschew higher stats (18's particularly) in favor of having more stats at 12 or 14 instead of 8 or 10... it /does/ depend on the character, but, if you want to shore up your weaknesses, you may have to skimp on your strengths a bit, too. So, avoid 8 WIS, get a 12 if you can... I think you're overestimating DCs slightly. A 15 save on a 1st level spell would require an 18 caster stat. A magic item of a 1st level spell has a DC of 11. You're more likely to face DCs closer to the later at 1st level. Obviously, every couple of levels, DCs'll go up 1, as higher level spells come into play.
Elspooky 09-27-04, 09:39 PM	To Elspooky: The outsider is good, it's something I've seen used to great advantage in low levels. Thanks for reminding me, it's one I'll pick up again. :-p There is a question though: Once you get Charm Monster it tends to be game over all over again, do you have any experience with dealing with this? Also: Does the Dominate work as only Dominate Person? I don't have my book anymore (see below), so could use some specifics on how well the outsider thing works (I played an Imaskar with the Otherwordly feat, so I know how it works per se, but don't know about what exact spells he manages to defy). but staves, books, rods, etc], none of even my highest level mages had the little beasties hovering around their brows. Both Charm and Dominate have their "Monster" flavors... In the case of Dominate Monster, though, it's a 9th level spell (and let's face it, I'd rather a 17th level enemy caster pulled out one of those than something else) ;) Charm Monster is 4th level, so yep, that'll come up from time-to-time. How do I handle it? Hope my Cloak of Resistance is up to the task ;) The one time it's come up I was able to make my save. An outsider archetype (Genesai especially) is very nice at low levels, I couldn't agree more. Not needing to breathe as an Air Genesai means inhaled poisons and spores (as well as the occasional water-filled-trap) are irrelevant, and with levitate once per day means that rickety bridges are a snap. All of these have come up from time-to-time. I like to think of is as a "bat utility belt". I'm not familiar with the race/feat you mentioned, sorry 'bout that. With an outsider, you're essentially not a valid target for a "person" spell (i.e., Charm Person, Dominate Person, Hold Person, etc. requires a humanoid target, and you're a outsider not a humanoid). In other words, any spell with "person" in the title, essentially. This has been rump-saving more than a few times, especially when the Hold Person spells are flying around the battlefield.
The Club 09-27-04, 10:41 PM	How do you manage to keep your fighters and barbs from being charmed? I've GMed three campaigns and played in 4 [These don't count the short ones, these are only the 10 * 4 hour session plus games] and every time my magic users charm all the fighters in sight, or my fighters get charmed in turn. How do you manage to prevent this aside from relying on casters who may be, you know, busy at the time trying not to die? The vastly underrated Protection from Evil spell. Per spell description, "...blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchanment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)." If the spell casters are too busy to protect and buff the meat shields, the party's in for some trouble, anyway. That said, I'm not aware of any reason an amulet or other magic item couldn't be made with a permanent Protection from Evil effect. It's only a first level spell. Wouldn't that mean it costs about 4000 gp to make (and I'm out on a limb guessing here)? Anyway, an ongoing Protection from Evil would at least shut down enchantment spells with ongoing mental influence effects. The Club
IceFractal 09-28-04, 12:19 AM	Yes, an amulet of protection from evil would cost 4,000 gp (or 2,000 gp in 3.0), furthermore, if you just wanted the possession blocking effect and not the AC or save benefit you could probably get it for half price. Its quite a good buy for those low will save juggernaughts.
the Horc 09-28-04, 12:23 AM	Get an item that grants continuous protection from Alignment. Although they are not standard issue... I have to ask why not? I'd see a fairly large market for those things, and cheap too (as far as magic items go)
JeanValJean 09-28-04, 12:38 AM	To a certain extent, wanting a pure-class fighter to succeed on WILL saves without ever being dependent on casters, is a bit like wanting your 1st level wiz to stand up to melee without the help of some fighters. Fighters have poor will saves, wizards have d4 HD... you gotta rely on eachother to an extent. You see I don't want the wizard to stand up in melee, he can stand up in combat already (Sleep + Charm usually will give a caster anything he needs except against undead) and has a wide variety of extra-combat skills to support himself. This is a first level spell, isn't a fighter NOT supposed to be afraid of it?
RIPlicator 09-28-04, 06:10 AM	No more than a mage is afraid of taking a critical. Pure fighters can not stand Will saves alone for high spells. But as mentioned above, the items can. Additionally there is Iron Will, and never forget Luck Feat (+1 Luck on all Saves and AC) which in my oppinion is very important for Fighters.
Zelphi 09-28-04, 06:19 AM	Or strong soul. Why are charms such a problem for you? You seem to be overplaying their effectiveness, especially in battle. They aren't domination effects and they can be easily broken. Other than that you are simply stuck with the standard methods.
RIPlicator 09-28-04, 06:39 AM	Double Post
angryman 09-28-04, 09:32 AM	Fine, I see what you want... -Play a dex-based fighter, (or better, ranger) take improved initiative and use a bow. Win initiative, hold your action to attack the mage as he's casting. No tricksy "magic" here... - Or play a stealthy character. You can't charm what you can't see. - Close to melee range quickly and grapple. Wear armour spikes. - When you see a tricksy mage, tell him you want to parlay. You don't need diplomacy or bluff, you just need to buy some time. When he's within charging distance... - Accept that Will saves are a weakness inherent in fighters and suck it up. It's better to capitalise on strengths than try to offset weaknesses.
Tony Vargas 09-28-04, 12:53 PM	This is a first level spell, isn't a fighter NOT supposed to be afraid of it? At 1st level, a 1st level spell should have a darn good chance of defeating a 1st level fighter, afterall, a single arrow has a darn good chance of defeating a 1st level wizard - and you can have a lot more arrows than spells...
thinkhard 09-28-04, 01:34 PM	Yeah i kind of think this is a min-maxing question more than it is an issue of class builds. It's like...i want a guy with HP and BAB too kill stuff, and also be unaffected by charm! Say goodbie to the paper-rock-scissors effect of combat. Effectively, every character is supposed to have his weakness. And if your DM constnantly prays on the weaknesses of a party just cuz he can, then he's not a very nice DM. The game is supposed to be fun.
JeanValJean 09-29-04, 09:19 PM	I'm not even going there with sleep. The trick is that with mage armor, sleep, shield, and charm a 1st level wizard can kill a 1st level fighter (who has comparable AC at first level, since the fighter and the mage's secondary skill is always Dex, they theoretically should be exactly the same), and that's not counting the additional functionality at later levels (Don't get me started about true strike [+20 insight bonus] and expeditious retreat [Faster than a fighter on a horse]). I mean: I want a fighter who can rule the battlefield (Like he's supposed to do) at lower levels, I'm not even asking about higher level spells, just charm since it's the most annoying thing possible to do, and since modern Charm allows you to turn a fighter against his compatriots (Thus the additional +5 save). Oh, and isn't using weaknesses against the party and party using weaknesses against monsters called "tactics"? Is it suddenly against the rules for the NPCs and monsters to be intelligent? All things considered it seems to be an issue of the fighter having to take imp-init, blooded and every other init thing that stacks and hoping that he gets a good roll and kills the wizard in one hit, because even with iron will a competent mage charms him or puts him to sleep, especially if the mage is an enchanter(Since wizards are supposed to prepare for encounters). Please show me how I'm wrong, this is one of my biggest frustrations: Out of my 3 paladins 2 have been charmed and forced to violate their alignments (1 in old 2nd ed, the one in 3rd was convinced that someone was "evil" and so killed an innocent: The last was designed to never fail a saving throw ever). The old saw of "the mages should help" doesn't help the fighter when he gets charmed because they forget to renew a protection spell or don't get one off fast enough. The permanent "aura of protection against evil" sounds really like cheese, like the quickened True Strike, so explain to me how they're not similar or I'm sorry but I'm not going to bite. I got so tired of being charmed that I created an "otherworldly" Deep Imaskari (He gets the Outsider Template, but his home plane is Faerun) Diviner Mage who always readied a spell of "protection from evil" for his halfling rogue counterpart (Because I, unlike many of the people I've played with, am a team player). Even still, I always lived in fear that one spell would get through. The thing is that I often adventure with selfish casters and would like a fighter who could survive just charm greater than a 50% chance when the casters decide that they need the protection a little bit more than I do (Which, in the case where evil fighters attack the mages first, is OFTEN). Note: FYI, I tend to live in wilderness and dungeon crawling campaigns with a lot of random encounters capped by a few preparable "boss battles." This may help with the context. Please post.