Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 07:37 PM	Whenever I roll characters, I'm always pretty sketchy on where to put the high rolls and where to put the low rolls. I decided to make a table that told me all of the best choices, based upon NPC stats. Text that is blue is recently added. Green is switched. They are subject to alteration and/or deletion if not liked by people. If you don't like changes, PM me. From most important to least important, by class: Barbarian Constitution Strength Dexterity Wisdom Charisma Intelligence Bard (Spellcasting / Performing) Charisma Intelligence Dexterity Constitution Strength Wisdom Melee Bard Consitution Charisma Strength Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Bard (Skilled) Intelligence Charisma Dexterity Constitution Strength Wisdom Cleric Wisdom Constitution Strength Charisma Intelligence Dexterity Non-Turning Cleric Wisdom Constitution Strength Intelligence Dexterity Charisma Druid Wisdom Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Strength Charisma Fighter (Melee) Strength Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Charisma Fighter (Dexterious / Ranged) Dexterity Constitution Strength Wisdom Intelligence Charisma Monk Wisdom Dexterity Strength Constitution Intelligence Charisma Paladin Charisma Strength Wisdom Constitution Intelligence Dexterity Ranger--Ranged Dexterity Constitution Wisdom Intelligence Strength Charisma Ranger--TWF Strength Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Charisma Rogue Dexterity Intelligence Constitution Strength Wisdom Charisma Sorcerer Charisma Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Strength Wizard Intelligence Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Charisma Strength I hope that I am of some help! Do you think that the lists should be different? Post. Things that many people agree with will be changed.
Sunrider 04-10-04, 07:45 PM	For rogues I'd put Strength and Constitution right at the bottom - most of your damage is Sneak Attack damage using a finesse or ranged weapon, or via poison. Dex, Int and Cha should all be top priorities for a rogue - Int for all rogues, Dex and Cha depending on what kind of character you envisage.
Koga:The ninja trick 04-10-04, 07:50 PM	[/Edit.]
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 07:57 PM	It's how the creators of 3.5 wrote it. But, then again, I've heard some better stuff from people on these forums than sometimes what I get from the 3.5 books (in comparison to the 3.0 books). So just letting you know....
BlaineTog 04-10-04, 08:03 PM	[list already "taken into consideration"]
Haldrik 04-10-04, 08:39 PM	stephenKingMinion, Maybe keep reediting and updating the first post at the top of the thread. I wouldn't mind referring to this thread every now and again. It would be easier for me to find the current consensus if it's always in the first post.
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 09:14 PM	I'll see what I can do. For now, I don't think I need to update ANYTHING except for putting in the optional classes like non-turning Clerics and also the fact that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WANTS BARBARIANS TO HAVE CONSTITUTION FIRST. One moment while I update that post. From now on, it would be OK to just PM me what you want changed and if enough people ask I will change it.
Haldrik 04-10-04, 09:41 PM	Thanks, StephenKM. :) In my experience, when it comes to Wizard and Sorcerer, their HD are simply too low. For this reason, Constitution is always much more important than Dexterity. I have never played (and never would play) a Wizard or Sorcerer without Con as the second highest attribute. Cha, Con, Dex, for Sorcerer. Int, Con, Dex, for Wizard.
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 09:47 PM	:bump: Yes, I was thinking that as well. And know many people who would agree.
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by Sunrider For rogues I'd put Strength and Constitution right at the bottom - most of your damage is Sneak Attack damage using a finesse or ranged weapon, or via poison. Dex, Int and Cha should all be top priorities for a rogue - Int for all rogues, Dex and Cha depending on what kind of character you envisage. Constitution, although not entirely necessary because of Move Silently, is definitely necessary for any rogue I'VE ever known of (Thugs, for example). Dungeon Rogues still fight monsters, and even with Sneak Attacks in big battles will get damaged. Con stays high until further notified.
BlaineTog 04-10-04, 09:58 PM	Yes, I agree. Rogues need a really good con, unless they are smart and do archery (which only works well at levels 7+ and you have a wizard/sorcerer who can cast Greater Invis). Although they still need it, it isn't *wuite* so important.
stephenKingMinion 04-10-04, 11:23 PM	I think that this post is important to more people than just ME, so :bump: bump. Whoops! Oh - and about the Rogue. What do other people have to say about having the Strength (if not Con) put down at the bottom?
n-butyl lithium 04-11-04, 01:46 PM	The rangers I play usually are TWF but use light weapons, so I usually do something like this: Dex Con Wis Str Int Cha Give or take, depending on my ability rolls or points. Dex is the most important because I do have ranged ability as well as melee, and Weapon Finesse is one of my first feats (depending on my Str/Dex scores). I like to have plenty of skill points, but I also like the bonuses to the Wisdom-based skills such as Spot, Listen, and Survival and I don't want to have to put ability points into Wisdom to get spells. Hit points are always necessary (especially since the hit die decrease) though Strength is important for melee combat as well. Charisma is usually the dump, but that's obvious.
stephenKingMinion 04-11-04, 03:07 PM	If you ARE going to use two weapons you WOULD want the to be light... who agrees?
SpellMaster 04-11-04, 09:28 PM	Ok, one thing I want clarified. Are we determining the most important stats for min-max properties, or from a role-playing perspective? I always prefer the RP perspective, so here is my recommendations for the sorcerer and wizard. These are fairly stereotypical of course. Sorcerer: Charisma (naturally charismatic) Intelligence (good for witty comments) Wisdom (ditto) Dexterity (able to move aside quickly and make a fool of the person rushing at you) Constitution (this could change with strength) Strength (ditto) Wizard: Intelligence (really, really smart people) Wisdom (usually pretty wise too) Charisma (charming people who are respected by many) Dexterity (must manipulate objects and components) Strength (lugging around books all day can be a lot of work) Constitution (they just don't have the powerful bodies fighters do) That's usually how I play my characters.
BlaineTog 04-11-04, 09:34 PM	Originally posted by SpellMaster Ok, one thing I want clarified. Are we determining the most important stats for min-max properties, or from a role-playing perspective?Min/maxing perspective. RP varies from person to person and isn't objective.
Haldrik 04-11-04, 10:23 PM	Spellmaster: Sorcerer: Charisma (naturally charismatic) Intelligence (good for witty comments) Wisdom (ditto) Dexterity (able to move aside quickly and make a fool of the person rushing at you) Constitution (this could change with strength) Strength (ditto) I admire your quest for flavor, but the flavor shouldn't be cyanide! :D
Zilred 04-11-04, 10:24 PM	Originally posted by stephenKingMinion Fighter (Melee) Strength Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Intelligence Charisma Fighter (Dexterious / Ranged) Dexterity Constitution Strength Wisdom Intelligence Charisma I don't think WIS rates that high with most fighters. They gain so many feats that taking Iron Will isn't that big a deal, and having a higher INT opens up more feats (namely Combat Expertise) and a much-needed skill point boost. Also, fighters can be more than just melee and ranged based. It really depends on the style of combat they choose. Sword and Shield: STR - With a single weapon, you need to hit harder CON - Shield use = Defender, bulk up on HP INT - Combat Expertise is a must have for defensive fighting DEX - Full Plate = not agile; Shield+Bow = Troublesome, just use the low-feat requirements for this style to get some Focus in Ranged WIS - Take Iron Will, you have scouts for spotting CHA - You follow orders, not give them Two-Weapon: DEX - You have no shield, and it doesn't pay to be overly defensive STR - Finesse nothing! You still need to do damage CON - With no defense, you need some endurance [swap with INT for Duelist] INT - Backup defense and good for ranks in tumble [swap with CON for Duelist] WIS - Again with the Iron Will CHA - You show off enough as is Two-Handed: STR - Kill them quickly, stack with Power Attack DEX - You're no Barbarian, avoid the hits instead of raging through, also makes archery easier as you only have one weapon at a time CON - You need the HP WIS - Don't be fooled by illusions, look for the right target INT - [can be swapped with CHA depending on preference] CHA - [can be swapped with INT depending on preference] Archer: DEX - Kind of obvious as to why STR - Compound Bows work well WIS - Dragons fly, so the archer better not get scared, also for Spotting CON - You still need HP [may swap with WIS if you prefer more HP] INT - Skills aren't critical, but making your own arrows can be CHA - Let your sniping speak for you I don't mention mounted fighters as they aren't so ability-score intensive (need some DEX or INT, so most other styles can mix into that fairly well). Just my thoughts on the matter.
SpellMaster 04-11-04, 10:45 PM	Originally posted by Haldrik Spellmaster: I admire your quest for flavor, but the flavor shouldn't be cyanide! :D Actually, I find this makes a very fun character to play. You just have to be a bit more tactical and careful to avoid taking too much damage. Even with a Con of only 12, my 9th level wizard has 41 hitpoints (mind you, my d4 rolls awesome, and our DM has a rule where you can't get less than half you hitdie on your roll), and I havn't died yet. I just prepare some defensive spells and make some defensive magic items. But yes, by a min-max standpoint, Con is important. I didn't realize this was for min-max.
Wolfhart 04-12-04, 01:58 AM	Doesent matter what I am rolling up. I almost allways set up a new character in the followin Charisma Constitution Strength Dexterity Depending on if I want the Character to be book smart of have alot of common sense Wisdom or Intelligence generally though Int or Dex are my dump stats. Then again almost all my characters have alot of "trade" skills.
Haldrik 04-12-04, 02:15 AM	almost all my characters have alot of "trade" skills. Good point: A "skill monger" class needs statting too. I see: Bard (Skilled). Maybe: Rogue (Skilled)?
Haldrik 04-12-04, 02:30 AM	Format the names the same way? Ex. Bard (Spellcasting/Preforming), Bard (Melee), Bard (Skilled), Cleric (Non-Turning), Ranger (Two-Handed Fighting), Ranger (Ranged), ...
Haldrik 04-12-04, 02:43 AM	Rogue (Melee) Elsewhere Wizo-Catoblepas suggested how to make a Rogue melee able. Well, in my last adventure group, the rogue was our main melee fighter. What you want to do is boost up your tumble, spot, escape artist, move silently, and hide skils and don't take the lock/trap skills. Then tumble to flank and start whacking away at the monster. Also, you play a race that have a constitution bonus (like a dwarf) to boost your hit points and take exotic weapon proficiency (great axe) to max out your damage. It's just that to go this way, you're really hoping to have strong ability scores (the only thing you can dump is charisma and wisdom). Totally cool! Dex? Str? Con? Int? Wis? Cha?
UMCorian 04-12-04, 09:42 AM	Wizard Intelligence Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Charisma Strength I've always thought it should be Intellegence, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma, Strength. The leading cause for deaths I've seen in Wizards and Sorcerers have been failed saves, not a lack of hit points. At low level (1-5), you gain more benefit from +2 to AC (assuming the two stats in question are 2 apart... 16 and 12, let's say.) than 2-10 hit points. At higher levels, when Scorching Ray comes into its own, and some of their best spells become Ranged Touch, that extra +2 is insurence against that dreaded 3 or 4 roll that wastes a level 6+ spell. At that point, when you have spells like Protection from Energy, Displacement, Stoneskin, Globes of Invulnerabilty and Fly readily availible, it'll be a rare fight that you cannot somehow distance yourself from the enemy, therefore, your hit points really doesn't matter as much. But, I can see the counter arguements for Con - a higher Fortitude Save gives insurence against those dreaded 'Fort Negates' spells, which either do nothing or cripple/kill you... but with a higher dex, you get higher reflex saves which yield you that little bit of insurence that might save you 35ish hit points if you get shanked with a 20d6 Reflex/Half spell without the proper defenses, or may very well save the whole 70 if you have a Ring of Evasion or are multiclass.
BlaineTog 04-12-04, 01:20 PM	If the wizard has a high con, then he can soak up the 35/70 points of damage. And if he's getting hit, he's doing something wrong. Plus, I can get a wizard's AC up in the low 40s at 20th, and thats even without an insane dex (although I admit: I use Stat boosters to raise it a little). Here is the *real* wizard stats: Intelligence Constitution Dexterity Wisdom Strength Charisma There is literally no mechanical benefit for a wizard that has a high Cha. *Nothing* unless you are enchanter who makes use of Charm Person (which is a special case). Low-Str hurts. Carrying around more than a day or two's rations slows you down.
Aluroon 04-16-04, 07:09 PM	For the ranged ranger you might wana bump str up, as most ranged rangers (lol) will use a mightly bow of some sort
UMCorian 05-06-04, 05:31 AM	There is literally no mechanical benefit for a wizard that has a high Cha. *Nothing* unless you are enchanter who makes use of Charm Person (which is a special case). Low-Str hurts. Carrying around more than a day or two's rations slows you down. Mr. Bag of Holding disagrees. :)
Kiri Sittori 08-22-04, 01:11 PM	I'd just like to comment on Charisma being the "dump stat" for both rangers and druids: Due to wild empathy and animal handling, players of both classes might want to play more of an animal handler type of character, and tame/raise animals, beasts, and certain magical beasts as semi-cohorts. Such a build would suggest: Dex Con Cha Wis Int Str for an Archer ranger, or Str Con Dex Cha Wis Int for a TWF'er. Just a thought. (Rangers get six or seven skills minimum, of which Survival (tracking) and Handle Animal will be obvious in these builds. So Int can be a passable dump stat.) As for Druids, Wis Cha Dex Con Int / Str Str / Int, depending on taste. (I also noticed that the DMG prefers Cha as a dump stat for both classes. But that weakens this unusual aspect of the two classes, not to mention that more intelligent magical beasts must be handled with Diplomacy, a bit of a problem (cc) for rangers.)