Post/Author/DateTime	Post
2y1y1z2 02-01-06, 12:49 PM	I wasn't sure whether to put this thread in the feats section or the classes section, so I'm posting it in both. The mods can move it where they want. I'm trying to convert all the class abilities into feats. I need help with prerequisites. I'm trying to put prerequisites so that they can be selected between 1 level before to 1 level after they would normally be obtained by the class, to give a little leeway. So far, this is what I have. Bardic Knowledge Pre: any four Knowledge skills 1 rank Bardic Music Pre: Perform (any) 4 ranks Wild Empathy Pre: Handle Animal 4 ranks Evasion Pre: base Ref save +3 Improved Evasion Pre: Evasion, Base Ref save +6 Lay on Hands Pre: Heal 5 ranks Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane) Pre: Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Arcane Caster Level 3rd Fast Movement Pre-requisites: BAB +1 Time BAB REF Save Max Max Max Taken Prereq Prereq Armor Load Shield --------------------------------------------------------------------- 1st +1 +0 Medium Medium Large 2nd +4 +2 Light Medium Large 3rd +7 +5 Light Light Small 4th +10 +7 None Light Small 5th +13 +10 None Light None Rage Pre-requisites: BAB +1, non-lawful, base Fortitude save +2, Constitution 13+ Greater Rage Pre-requisites: BAB +11, non-lawful, Rage, base Fortitude save +7, Constitution 15+ Tireless Rage Pre-requisites: BAB +17, non-lawful, Rage, Greater Rage, base Fortitude save +10, Constitution 17+ Mighty Rage Pre-requisites: BAB +20, non-lawful, Rage, Greater Rage, Tireless Rage, base Fortitude save +12, Constitution 19+ Damage Reduction Pre-requisites: BAB +9, base Fortitude save +6, Constitution 13+ (this is intentionally setting it at a higher level than when a normal Barb gets it) Indomitable Will Pre-requisites: BAB +14, non-lawful, Rage Turn Undead Pre-requisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, base Will save +2, ability to cast 1st level spells, Good or Neutral alignment, cannot be able to rebuke undead Rebuke Undead Pre-requisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, base Will save +2, ability to cast 1st level spells, Evil or Neutral alignment, cannot be able to turn undead Domains Pre-requisites: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, ability to cast 1st level divine spells Special: Can be taken more than once. Must select a different domain each time. Spontaneous Cure Pre-requisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, base Will save +2, ability to cast 1st level spells, Good or Neutral alignment, cannot be able to rebuke undead, Turn Undead Spontaneous Inflict Pre-requisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, base Will save +2, ability to cast 1st level spells, Evil or Neutral alignment, cannot be able to turn undead, Rebuke Undead Evasion (Dex 13, Lightning Reflexes) Improved Evasion (Dex 15, Evasion, Base Reflex Save +6) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge, Improved Initiative) Improved Uncanny Dodge (Uncanny Dodge, Lightning Reflexes) Mettle (Con 13, Wis 13, Great Fortitude, Iron Will) Improved Mettle (Con 15, Wis 15, Mettle, Base Fort Save +6, Base Will Save +6) Slippery Mind (Wis 13, Iron Will, Base Will Save +6) Opportunist (BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist (from CA)) Sneak Attack (Alertness, 3 ranks in Spot) - 1d6 sneak attack dmg Improved Sneak Attack (6 ranks in Spot, Sneak Attack) - improves Sneak Attack by +1d6. Can be taken multiple times. Each additional time requires 2 more ranks in Spot. Crippling Strike (5d6 or more Sneak Attack dmg) Defensive Roll (Evasion, Acrobatic, 8 ranks in Tumble, Base Reflex Save +6) Skill Mastery (10 ranks and Skill Focus in skill to be mastered) You get one skill mastery every time you take this feat. Acrobatic Charge (Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatic, 3 ranks in Tumble) Trapfinding (1 rank in Search, 1 rank in Spot) Trap Sense (Trapfinding, Alertness) Animal Companion (Animal Affinity, 3 ranks in Handle Animal) Improved/Additional Animal Companion (Animal Companion, 6 ranks in Handle Animal) Advances your current animal companion on the Animal Companion chart. This feat can be taken multiple times. Each additional time requires 3 more ranks in Handle Animal) So this is where you guys come in. I need help with the rest. Abilities in bold are going to require steep prerequisites. Code: Armored Spellcasting Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally Nature Sense Woodland Stride Trackless Step Resist Nature's Lure Wild Shape Large Wild Shape Venom Immunity Tiny Wild Shape Plant Wild Shape Thousand Faces Huge Wild Shape Timeless Body Elemental Shape Huge Elemental Shape Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike Monk AC Bonuses Still Mind Ki Strike Slow Fall Purity of Body Wholeness of Body Diamond Body Abundant Step Diamond Soul Quivering Palm Tongue of Sun and Moon Empty Body Perfect Self Detect (Alignment) Smite (Alignment) Divine Grace Aura of Courage Divine Health Special Mount Remove Disease Favored enemy Swift Tracker Camouflage Hide in Plain Sight Psionic Discipline Mind Blade Throw Mind Blade Psychic Strike Free Draw Shape Mind Blade Mind Blade Enhancement Bladewind Knife to the Soul Multiple Throw Wild Surge Elude Touch Surging Euphoria Volatile Mind I know that there are already feats that cover some of these abilities. If you could point me to them I'd be grateful. Also, I don't have my Complete books with me, but I'll be adding in the abilities from those as well.
2y1y1z2 02-02-06, 12:25 PM	No one's interested?
Nephew of Istvan 02-02-06, 12:36 PM	The only class ability i'd really like to see be a feat is Poison Use (See Assasin and (I belive) Blackguard in the DMG). Obtain Familiar is already a feat in Complete Arcane. Requiers Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks and Arcane Spellcaster level 3rd, plus the standard cost of obtaining a familiar (24 hours and 100gp)
babysamurai 02-02-06, 12:41 PM	Class abilities are usually too powerful to be converted into feats.
2y1y1z2 02-02-06, 01:48 PM	It doesn't really matter how powerful the ability is. It just increases the prerequisites for learning the feat. I'm trying to run a generic campaign, and making the class abilities as feats is neccessary for my progress.
Xabre 02-02-06, 01:54 PM	Most of the Soulknife abilities are already listed as feats in the Pisonic board. Some of your abilities are very hard to consider... for instance you have 'Cleric Domains' as a strict requirement... but a 1st level cleric has these. Seriously, any class ability should probably just have a skill requirement. The requirement should be one skill that the class normally gets, at a rank that could only be accomplished for the level it first shows up. For instance, if a Paladin gets Lay on Hands at 4th level, then Heal: 7 ranks makes perfect sense. Divine Grace could be Diplomacy: 5 ranks, since a Paladin gets it at level 2. A Monk's Stunning Fist could be Concentration: 4 ranks, since that's when he gets it (though in 3.5 it's a feat, too).
MaverickWolf 02-02-06, 01:59 PM	The vast majority of class features would have to be feat chains, not feats. To have them single feats would allow players to take too many combinations of features, and would be exceedingly unbalanced.
Esponer 02-02-06, 02:04 PM	Interesting idea, but you'll have to consider how this will influence this the game. For instance, a paladin now needs ranks in Heal to maintain the same class abilities, and such. Due to this, you may need to raise the skill points per level fairly significantly for your 'generic class', or however you're doing it.
2y1y1z2 02-02-06, 02:16 PM	The vast majority of class features would have to be feat chains, not feats. To have them single feats would allow players to take too many combinations of features, and would be exceedingly unbalanced. I don't have a problem with feat chains. Anything you could contribute to make it work is fine by me.
Molot 02-02-06, 02:50 PM	The worst thing is that it would break all PrCs requirements. So if you would implement this approach in your campaign, you would have to remove PrCs, or agree on the situation in wich character with PrCs are more powerfull than straight characters with the same level.
TsuDhoNimh 02-02-06, 05:12 PM	What are prestige classes except new collections of class abilities? So, if you buy a new book and it has some new class abilities, just make up feat chains for them. Don't forget to add stat requirements to some feats. I'd suggest making Evasion tougher to pick up. Maybe something like this: Evasion (Dex 13, Dodge, 5 ranks in Tumble) While I'm at it, here's a bunch of other class abilities converted to feats off the top of my head: Evasion (Dex 13, Dodge, 5 ranks in Tumble) Improved Evasion (Dex 15, Evasion, 10 ranks in Tumble, Base Reflex Save +6) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge, Improved Initiative) Improved Uncanny Dodge (Uncanny Dodge, Lightning Reflexes) Mettle (Con 13, Toughness, Great Fortitude) Slippery Mind (Wis 13, Iron Will, Base Will Save +6) Opportunist (BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist (from CA)) Sneak Attack (Alertness, 3 ranks in Spot) - 1d6 sneak attack dmg Improved Sneak Attack (6 ranks in Spot, Sneak Attack) - improves Sneak Attack by +1d6. Can be taken multiple times. Each additional time requires 2 more ranks in Spot. Crippling Strike (5d6 or more Sneak Attack dmg) Defensive Roll (Evasion, Acrobatic, 8 ranks in Tumble, Base Reflex Save +6) Skill Mastery (10 ranks and Skill Focus in skill to be mastered) You get one skill mastery every time you take this feat. Acrobatic Charge (Dodge, Mobility, Acrobatic, 3 ranks in Tumble) Trapfinding (1 rank in Search, 1 rank in Spot) Trap Sense (Trapfinding, Alertness) Animal Companion (Animal Affinity, 3 ranks in Handle Animal) Improved/Additional Animal Companion (Animal Companion, 6 ranks in Handle Animal) Advances your current animal companion on the Animal Companion chart. This feat can be taken multiple times. Each additional time requires 3 more ranks in Handle Animal) The spellcasting feats need some work. Arcane Spellcasting (Int 13 or Cha 13, Magical Aptitude, 4 ranks in Spellcraft and Concentration) Gives the ability to cast arcane spells as a level 1 Sorcerer. Your Intelligence affects the number of spells you have per day and your Charisma affects the DC of your spells. You select your spells known from the Sorcerer spell list. Improved Arcane Spellcasting (Arcane Spellcasting, 5 ranks in Spellcraft) Advances your arcane caster level, spell slots, and spells known as if you had gained one level in Sorcerer. This feat may be taken multiple times. Each subsequent time you take the feat, you need one more rank in Spellcraft to qualify. Divine Spellcasting (Int 13 or Wis 13, Magical Aptitude, 4 ranks in Knowledge:Religion and Concentration) Gives the ability to cast arcane spells as a level 1 Cleric. Your Intelligence affects the number of spells you have per day and your Wisdom affects the DC of your spells. You select your spells known from the Cleric spell list. Improved Divine Spellcasting (Divine Spellcasting, 5 ranks in Knowledge:Religion) Advances your divine caster level, spell slots, and spells known as if you had gained one level in Cleric. This feat may be taken multiple times. Each subsequent time you take the feat, you need one more rank in Knowledge:Religion to qualify.
2y1y1z2 02-06-06, 11:37 AM	Thanks TsuDhoNimh. I posted your stuff, and toyed with the prereqs a bit. Mettle works for Fortitude and Will Saves, So I added Iron Will and stuff. Any other ideas?
TekknoMancer 02-06-06, 12:58 PM	I have mixed thoughts on this. Featifying certain abilities makes good sense, but other abilities do not. Specifically, I would not try and make spellcasting into feats. Abilities like rage, evasion, etc. are example of abilites that could (and should IMHO) be made into feats since they seem to follow they same type of mechanics that feats do. As for the power of class abilities vs. feats, I think feats could use a boost anyhow. However, for the really powerful class abilities, making them into feat chains and/or smart use of prerequisites can help alleviate these problems. You shouldn't be able to take a feat of a class ability before the class that has the ability gets it (ie: no evasion before a rogue gets it as part of level progression). This can be accomplished by enforcing BAB prereqs, base save prereqs (this can be broken due to multiclassing!), or simply level requirements. Although feats don't normally have explicit level prerequisites, there are certainly implied ones. I must ask, what is "Improved Mettle?" If it follows the pattern of "Improved Evasion," you would only take partial effects on a failed save. It makes sense for straight damage from Ref saves, but would seem broken considering the types of effects that Will and Fort saves are tied to.
2y1y1z2 02-06-06, 01:35 PM	I have mixed thoughts on this. Featifying certain abilities makes good sense, but other abilities do not. Specifically, I would not try and make spellcasting into feats. Abilities like rage, evasion, etc. are example of abilites that could (and should IMHO) be made into feats since they seem to follow they same type of mechanics that feats do. I'll be using the Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana, with some changes, so spellcasting will be built in.
TsuDhoNimh 02-07-06, 09:27 AM	D20 Modern has a nice take on generic classes too. No built-in magic of course, so that would be a pain to adapt. Improved Mettle was supposed to be just like improved evasion - half damage on a failed save. Now that I think about it though, this doesn't make sense, since many fort saves are save or die. So this feat should bite the dust. What do you think of the requirements for the feats? I tried to give them requirements in line with when most classes get them, but this is tough for abilities like Uncanny dodge and Evasion, which some classes get very early and others don't get until several levels later. Another thing I was trying to do was to make many of the underutilized skill feats important (like Acrobatic, Magical Aptitude). It would be great to be able to do spells as feats, but to do it correctly you really have to redesign the magic system because a feat-based magic system grafted onto the level-based system is tough to balance. It also tends to weaken hybrid magic classes a lot -- no more 18th caster-level Gish characters running around. After all, if you have to take a feat for every caster level, that's most of your feats right there. Not much room for Metamagic or other feats... How many feats do the generic classes get? The pre-reqs might be a little steep for some of the feats if you get less than 20 total for 20 levels. The "generic class" I had in mind would get between 20 and 30 feats including the feat everyone gets every 3 levels.
TekknoMancer 02-07-06, 01:21 PM	I actually did find improved mettle with the Void Incarnate. I think it could be crazy-powerful, since you become immune to the save-or-dies that have a partial effect on a successful save. Anyhow, a bigger question is how you would handle BAB, skills/level, HD, and saves in this sort of system? It would almost make more sense to grant points/lvl that can be spent on BAB, skills, HD, saves, feats/"class abilities", and spellcasting. This allows spellcasting to be a different entity than feats and thus avoids the problem of fitting spellcasting into a feat system. Additionally, it accounts for the other defining attributes of the various classes.
TsuDhoNimh 02-07-06, 03:11 PM	That was about what I was thinking too, Tekkno. My friend and I were discussing a generic class that started with 12 skill points a level, d4 hp, and no save bonuses or BAB. You spend your points to increase your HD, saves, BAB, or to buy skills and feats. So it would be 1 point to increase your HD to the next die, 1 point to increase each save (max +2 to each save), 2 points for BAB (max +1), 2 points for a feat (max 1) and the rest are left over for skills. To me, the best way to fit spellcasting into a Generic class system is to base it off skill activation rolls rather than spell levels. So you have a casting skill for each school (Divine and Arcane magic would use different skills and stats) and each spell has a DC. Metamagic adds a fixed amount to each cast DC, and Metamagic feats give an appropriate bonus to your roll when you use that particular effect (enlarge, extend, etc.). This is pretty difficult to do in practice since you basically do away with the current system and make it more like building "Hero system" or GURPS powers, but it could work if done properly. What I would love is to be able to have the player describe the effect they want, (I drench the goblins with burning acid!) and then the DM could easily calculate the DC for the desired spell effect, doing away with endless supplements with spells that are just slight variants of each other or are unbalanced at their spell level. The key challenge to de-feat (pun intended of course) is making it possible to approximate the archetypes people like to play (mage/cleric, fighter/mage, thief/mage, etc) without making them too weak due to the huge number of feats you'd need to support spellcasting.
2y1y1z2 02-08-06, 11:28 AM	To me, the best way to fit spellcasting into a Generic class system is to base it off skill activation rolls rather than spell levels. So you have a casting skill for each school (Divine and Arcane magic would use different skills and stats) and each spell has a DC. Metamagic adds a fixed amount to each cast DC, and Metamagic feats give an appropriate bonus to your roll when you use that particular effect (enlarge, extend, etc.) I had been attempting something like this for some time, but things, as they always do, kind of fell by the wayside. I was basing it off of the epic spell seeds, using the Spellcraft DC stuff. I'll see if I can drag it out of wherever it is, but this is something that I really, really like the idea of. A more freeform magic system.