Class abilities useless in a group??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class abilities useless in a group??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bubba333
05-23-05, 02:04 AM I made a Scout in a military campaign and soon realized that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are useless when moving with a group. Aside from everyone being Scouts, what's a decent idea? I find it odd that (IMO) the best scout is the one from the Star Wars RPG.
Yak of Darkness
05-23-05, 02:26 AM Woodland Stride can still be useful in a group--say you get in a fight in a wooded (or other similarly ill-terrained area), which, let's face it, happens, you'll have a tactical advantage over everyone else in the fight, as you'll be able to move normally.

Trackless Step, not so much. But a scout is assumed to spend at least a bit of his time . . . well, scouting, which is not always going to be with the rest of the party. If you get discovered while doing this, Trackless Step makes sure you're not followed by your enemies (with Woodland Stride keeping you well ahead of them along the way).
Bubba333
05-23-05, 03:04 AM I agree with Woodland Stride; I can just roll around in briars and still kick butt! As far as Trackless Step goes, I guess we'll have to agree to play all Scouts to take advantage of the ability. No biggie as we're a covert ops group.
OpheliaWhispers
05-23-05, 03:06 AM Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are important to a woodland campaign scout. You have the advantage of moving EASILY (like normal) over dense terrain, and when scouting for your party your trackless step will not lead your enemies back to your party. I think in a woodland setting the two are ESSENTIAL to a scout. IMHO :D
HappyDragon
05-23-05, 03:15 AM Well I'm not familiar with the Scout from Star Wars Rpg, but I am currently playing a scout where I am the only one that has skills along those lines and I am having no problems with it.

The whole point of being a scout is to be AHEAD of the rest of the group and check around for the safety of your group following....without letting any enemies know you are there, (Trackless Step) Your party should know what your job is, and if they're smart, wont go jumping the gun and get to far past a certain agreed on point. Good party communication, both in game and out will help your case alot. You have skills like the Fast Movement and Woodland Stride to get between the area you're scouting and your group quicker to give them the information they need to do their jobs easier and safer. Also if I remember correctly you have the option of leaving a trail with the Trackless Step....might be wrong on that one though.

Sure having a bunch of other Scouts would be great for following along, but in the stereotypical group the whole point is to stay ahead of the group. The group can have an idea of which way you've gone, but ideally they should be waiting for you to come back from your Recon so all of the party can better plan and prepare for what is awaiting them ahead.

As for the military aspect, Ideally you have Recon units move ahead of normal Infantry, or whatever type of units you want to deal with, to bring back good Intel for them. Information that will help many other parts of the military unit. You don't send the Heavy Artllery ahead to see what they should be shooting at....That's the Scouts job.

Same premise in a DnD group.
A wizard will be alot more effect if they know what spells they should be preparing, or the Fighter will be alot better prepared for combat if they know what type of arms and equipment they should be using.

Hope this helps a bit and have fun :)

Oh, and on a side note some magical effects could be usefull as well...One in paricular that comes to mind is from the Eberron Sourcebook, (don't quote me on that source though, might be wrong), Magical rings that are intune with eachother to keep in contact within a certain area.....kinda like magical walkie-talkies.
Bubba333
05-23-05, 03:26 AM One of things is that we're a close-quarters team of covert specialists. Two of don't care if we're all the same class as we feel it's the characters that matter, however we tried it with a Fighter the player was miserable. He had to be left behind a lot, was a quiet as an ox and was generally useless to our missions. Now, I can see it being "the DM's fault", but he told us what we'd be doing and the playre insisted on not getting on-board. Sad fact is that the player rocks and can RP his ass off, so it was as shock that he'd poo-poo Fighter?(Scout, Ranger, Rogue) PCs as "power-gaming". In a three-man team, the DM felt we needed more lethality and survivability.

Anyhoo, if you were going to make gestalt commandos in a war campaign, would you make Fighter/Scout or Fighter/Rogue? I personally feel for the Fighter/Scout variation as it makes the group nigh-invisible, has mad-cool skills and abilities and skirmish kicks butt! Plus we'd be grabbing levels in Dread Commando* (dropping Fighter from 7th to 11th then picking it back up). Add in that we're taking the Inflitrator Team bonuses* and I think a group of Fighter/Scout/Dread Commandos would ROCK!!!

*Both of these are from Heroes of Battle.
Bubba333
05-23-05, 03:37 AM As for the military aspect, Ideally you have Recon units move ahead of normal Infantry, or whatever type of units you want to deal with, to bring back good Intel for them. Information that will help many other parts of the military unit. You don't send the Heavy Artllery ahead to see what they should be shooting at....That's the Scouts job.

Problem is that we are the recon unit! :)
HappyDragon
05-23-05, 04:02 AM Heh, I was about to suggest the Dread Commando but see you've beat me too it. An excellent choice from the sounds of your group by the way. Dread Commandos are AMAZING :D

Since you are using Heroes of Battle, maybe Feats like Guerrila Scout and Guerilla Warrior would be able to help your Fighter, if he does not have them already. Bit late for it now, but there is also the Able Learner Feat from Races of Destiny if the fighter is human. He still wont be as good as Rogues or Scouts but at least he may be able to keep pace a bit more and be more usefull within the party and your missions.
Bubba333
05-23-05, 07:24 AM Sadly, he does have both Guerilla feats, but he's just not a good addition. The player's miserable and that sucks.

Perhaps it'll just be me and the other player...*sigh*

Anyhoo, do you agree with the Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue? Just a poll of sorts.
MadBlue
05-23-05, 08:22 AM I made a Scout in a military campaign and soon realized that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are useless when moving with a group. Aside from everyone being Scouts, what's a decent idea? I find it odd that (IMO) the best scout is the one from the Star Wars RPG.The SWRPG Scout's Trailblazing ability is a function of the Survival skill in D&D (CV p103), so you can use Survival checks to increase your group's overland speed through difficult terrain. It doesn't help with tactical movement, but it'll help the party catch up with or overtake the enemy and set up ambushes. :cool:

MadBlue
CzarGarrett
05-23-05, 08:46 AM Class abilities only become useless in a group when the group does not work together.

If you're a scout, you should be ahead/to the side of the group looking for enemies and traps. I wouldn't expect a fully armored Paladin to be in that position. Just like I wouldn't expect a Wizard to be singing to up the morale of his comrades.

Sometime you need to play with your role in a group if its not obvious.
HappyDragon
05-23-05, 10:29 AM Sadly, he does have both Guerilla feats, but he's just not a good addition. The player's miserable and that sucks.

Perhaps it'll just be me and the other player...*sigh*

Anyhoo, do you agree with the Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue? Just a poll of sorts.

If you guys are sticking to a strictly military campaign that will stay out in the wilds, I would definietly go Fighter/Scout.
However if your party ever intends to have more social circumstances like that in a city go Fighter/Rogue.

It also partly depend on what the rest of you are....If there are already 2 Fighter/Scouts, a Fighter/Rogue could be a nice addition just to round out your groups overall skills more, especially with things like the Disable Device and Use Magic Item stuff. Of course that's only if there are traps to be disabled....If your going straight Strike team I would have to say Fighter/Scout.

There is always the option of going Fighter/Ranger as well....looses the Skirmish but the Tracking abilities and Spells could come in handy down the line, not to mention the full BAB they would have.

But in general, from the sounds of your group IMO Fighter/Scout would be the best bet.
Bubba333
05-23-05, 11:12 AM Class abilities only become useless in a group when the group does not work together.

If you're a scout, you should be ahead/to the side of the group looking for enemies and traps. I wouldn't expect a fully armored Paladin to be in that position. Just like I wouldn't expect a Wizard to be singing to up the morale of his comrades.

Sometime you need to play with your role in a group if its not obvious.

*sigh* I guess I'm not being clear in that we all move as a covert unit, so Paladins and Wizards don't fit too well. We have three gestalt PCs that have Fighter and then one each Scout, Ranger and Rogue. We all work well together except my Scout's kinda screwed when they move with him. THAT'S the issue, you know?

Anyhoo, I agree with Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue or Ranger as we'll be urban and wilderness, but not so much as we'll be smooth-talking the locals (much, if at all). For tracking, one of us will take the feat Track. Now, what do you all think of Endurance? Is it worth it if we all have Easy Traveling Mithral medium armor?

BTW, I really do appreciate all of your ideas and advice.
HappyDragon
05-24-05, 11:58 PM Since your group is moving as a team, Endurance will only work well if all of you take it...otherwise some will get left behind. The other thing to keep in mind is the type of missions you'll usually be doing. If they are all quick in and out things, endurance wont really be needed that much. However if your group is looking to be away from their HQ or whoever it is they're Scouting for, Endurance will be much more helpful if you know you'll be on the road for long periods of time without relief.

I would personally take it, but then again I'm a bit biased as Endurance is one of my all time favourite feats :D

Hope the Dread Commando Strike Force goes well :)
Bubba333
05-25-05, 03:49 AM Sadly, as of this moment the whole D&D game's on hold. But, we did come an agreement on what to play and will be taking Endurance. We're using +1 mithral full plate, so Endurance will rock. Also, we're almost all the way cohesive with two Fighter/Rogue/Dread Commando characters, a Fighter/Ranger/Weretouched Master and a soon-to-be (hopefully) Fighter/Ninja. All-in-all a well-rounded group. What would be best is of we were all the first type, especially with the Team Bonus for flanking.
Crispy_Spellthief
05-25-05, 04:36 AM One more comment on the "Trackless Step" thing...

While it may at first seem useless, look at it this way.. even if your friends can be tracked, you cant.. allowing you to lie in wait and ambush them before they ambush you! Even more fun if you got a druid with the same ability also in your group. :evillaugh

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 05-23-05, 02:04 AM	I made a Scout in a military campaign and soon realized that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are useless when moving with a group. Aside from everyone being Scouts, what's a decent idea? I find it odd that (IMO) the best scout is the one from the Star Wars RPG.
Yak of Darkness 05-23-05, 02:26 AM	Woodland Stride can still be useful in a group--say you get in a fight in a wooded (or other similarly ill-terrained area), which, let's face it, happens, you'll have a tactical advantage over everyone else in the fight, as you'll be able to move normally. Trackless Step, not so much. But a scout is assumed to spend at least a bit of his time . . . well, scouting, which is not always going to be with the rest of the party. If you get discovered while doing this, Trackless Step makes sure you're not followed by your enemies (with Woodland Stride keeping you well ahead of them along the way).
Bubba333 05-23-05, 03:04 AM	I agree with Woodland Stride; I can just roll around in briars and still kick butt! As far as Trackless Step goes, I guess we'll have to agree to play all Scouts to take advantage of the ability. No biggie as we're a covert ops group.
OpheliaWhispers 05-23-05, 03:06 AM	Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are important to a woodland campaign scout. You have the advantage of moving EASILY (like normal) over dense terrain, and when scouting for your party your trackless step will not lead your enemies back to your party. I think in a woodland setting the two are ESSENTIAL to a scout. IMHO :D
HappyDragon 05-23-05, 03:15 AM	Well I'm not familiar with the Scout from Star Wars Rpg, but I am currently playing a scout where I am the only one that has skills along those lines and I am having no problems with it. The whole point of being a scout is to be AHEAD of the rest of the group and check around for the safety of your group following....without letting any enemies know you are there, (Trackless Step) Your party should know what your job is, and if they're smart, wont go jumping the gun and get to far past a certain agreed on point. Good party communication, both in game and out will help your case alot. You have skills like the Fast Movement and Woodland Stride to get between the area you're scouting and your group quicker to give them the information they need to do their jobs easier and safer. Also if I remember correctly you have the option of leaving a trail with the Trackless Step....might be wrong on that one though. Sure having a bunch of other Scouts would be great for following along, but in the stereotypical group the whole point is to stay ahead of the group. The group can have an idea of which way you've gone, but ideally they should be waiting for you to come back from your Recon so all of the party can better plan and prepare for what is awaiting them ahead. As for the military aspect, Ideally you have Recon units move ahead of normal Infantry, or whatever type of units you want to deal with, to bring back good Intel for them. Information that will help many other parts of the military unit. You don't send the Heavy Artllery ahead to see what they should be shooting at....That's the Scouts job. Same premise in a DnD group. A wizard will be alot more effect if they know what spells they should be preparing, or the Fighter will be alot better prepared for combat if they know what type of arms and equipment they should be using. Hope this helps a bit and have fun :) Oh, and on a side note some magical effects could be usefull as well...One in paricular that comes to mind is from the Eberron Sourcebook, (don't quote me on that source though, might be wrong), Magical rings that are intune with eachother to keep in contact within a certain area.....kinda like magical walkie-talkies.
Bubba333 05-23-05, 03:26 AM	One of things is that we're a close-quarters team of covert specialists. Two of don't care if we're all the same class as we feel it's the characters that matter, however we tried it with a Fighter the player was miserable. He had to be left behind a lot, was a quiet as an ox and was generally useless to our missions. Now, I can see it being "the DM's fault", but he told us what we'd be doing and the playre insisted on not getting on-board. Sad fact is that the player rocks and can RP his ass off, so it was as shock that he'd poo-poo Fighter?(Scout, Ranger, Rogue) PCs as "power-gaming". In a three-man team, the DM felt we needed more lethality and survivability. Anyhoo, if you were going to make gestalt commandos in a war campaign, would you make Fighter/Scout or Fighter/Rogue? I personally feel for the Fighter/Scout variation as it makes the group nigh-invisible, has mad-cool skills and abilities and skirmish kicks butt! Plus we'd be grabbing levels in Dread Commando* (dropping Fighter from 7th to 11th then picking it back up). Add in that we're taking the Inflitrator Team bonuses* and I think a group of Fighter/Scout/Dread Commandos would ROCK!!! *Both of these are from Heroes of Battle.
Bubba333 05-23-05, 03:37 AM	As for the military aspect, Ideally you have Recon units move ahead of normal Infantry, or whatever type of units you want to deal with, to bring back good Intel for them. Information that will help many other parts of the military unit. You don't send the Heavy Artllery ahead to see what they should be shooting at....That's the Scouts job. Problem is that we are the recon unit! :)
HappyDragon 05-23-05, 04:02 AM	Heh, I was about to suggest the Dread Commando but see you've beat me too it. An excellent choice from the sounds of your group by the way. Dread Commandos are AMAZING :D Since you are using Heroes of Battle, maybe Feats like Guerrila Scout and Guerilla Warrior would be able to help your Fighter, if he does not have them already. Bit late for it now, but there is also the Able Learner Feat from Races of Destiny if the fighter is human. He still wont be as good as Rogues or Scouts but at least he may be able to keep pace a bit more and be more usefull within the party and your missions.
Bubba333 05-23-05, 07:24 AM	Sadly, he does have both Guerilla feats, but he's just not a good addition. The player's miserable and that sucks. Perhaps it'll just be me and the other player...sigh Anyhoo, do you agree with the Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue? Just a poll of sorts.
MadBlue 05-23-05, 08:22 AM	I made a Scout in a military campaign and soon realized that Woodland Stride and Trackless Step are useless when moving with a group. Aside from everyone being Scouts, what's a decent idea? I find it odd that (IMO) the best scout is the one from the Star Wars RPG.The SWRPG Scout's Trailblazing ability is a function of the Survival skill in D&D (CV p103), so you can use Survival checks to increase your group's overland speed through difficult terrain. It doesn't help with tactical movement, but it'll help the party catch up with or overtake the enemy and set up ambushes. :cool: MadBlue
CzarGarrett 05-23-05, 08:46 AM	Class abilities only become useless in a group when the group does not work together. If you're a scout, you should be ahead/to the side of the group looking for enemies and traps. I wouldn't expect a fully armored Paladin to be in that position. Just like I wouldn't expect a Wizard to be singing to up the morale of his comrades. Sometime you need to play with your role in a group if its not obvious.
HappyDragon 05-23-05, 10:29 AM	Sadly, he does have both Guerilla feats, but he's just not a good addition. The player's miserable and that sucks. Perhaps it'll just be me and the other player...sigh Anyhoo, do you agree with the Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue? Just a poll of sorts. If you guys are sticking to a strictly military campaign that will stay out in the wilds, I would definietly go Fighter/Scout. However if your party ever intends to have more social circumstances like that in a city go Fighter/Rogue. It also partly depend on what the rest of you are....If there are already 2 Fighter/Scouts, a Fighter/Rogue could be a nice addition just to round out your groups overall skills more, especially with things like the Disable Device and Use Magic Item stuff. Of course that's only if there are traps to be disabled....If your going straight Strike team I would have to say Fighter/Scout. There is always the option of going Fighter/Ranger as well....looses the Skirmish but the Tracking abilities and Spells could come in handy down the line, not to mention the full BAB they would have. But in general, from the sounds of your group IMO Fighter/Scout would be the best bet.
Bubba333 05-23-05, 11:12 AM	Class abilities only become useless in a group when the group does not work together. If you're a scout, you should be ahead/to the side of the group looking for enemies and traps. I wouldn't expect a fully armored Paladin to be in that position. Just like I wouldn't expect a Wizard to be singing to up the morale of his comrades. Sometime you need to play with your role in a group if its not obvious. sigh I guess I'm not being clear in that we all move as a covert unit, so Paladins and Wizards don't fit too well. We have three gestalt PCs that have Fighter and then one each Scout, Ranger and Rogue. We all work well together except my Scout's kinda screwed when they move with him. THAT'S the issue, you know? Anyhoo, I agree with Fighter/Scout more than Fighter/Rogue or Ranger as we'll be urban and wilderness, but not so much as we'll be smooth-talking the locals (much, if at all). For tracking, one of us will take the feat Track. Now, what do you all think of Endurance? Is it worth it if we all have Easy Traveling Mithral medium armor? BTW, I really do appreciate all of your ideas and advice.
HappyDragon 05-24-05, 11:58 PM	Since your group is moving as a team, Endurance will only work well if all of you take it...otherwise some will get left behind. The other thing to keep in mind is the type of missions you'll usually be doing. If they are all quick in and out things, endurance wont really be needed that much. However if your group is looking to be away from their HQ or whoever it is they're Scouting for, Endurance will be much more helpful if you know you'll be on the road for long periods of time without relief. I would personally take it, but then again I'm a bit biased as Endurance is one of my all time favourite feats :D Hope the Dread Commando Strike Force goes well :)
Bubba333 05-25-05, 03:49 AM	Sadly, as of this moment the whole D&D game's on hold. But, we did come an agreement on what to play and will be taking Endurance. We're using +1 mithral full plate, so Endurance will rock. Also, we're almost all the way cohesive with two Fighter/Rogue/Dread Commando characters, a Fighter/Ranger/Weretouched Master and a soon-to-be (hopefully) Fighter/Ninja. All-in-all a well-rounded group. What would be best is of we were all the first type, especially with the Team Bonus for flanking.
Crispy_Spellthief 05-25-05, 04:36 AM	One more comment on the "Trackless Step" thing... While it may at first seem useless, look at it this way.. even if your friends can be tracked, you cant.. allowing you to lie in wait and ambush them before they ambush you! Even more fun if you got a druid with the same ability also in your group. :evillaugh