Class Adjustment Experimentation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Adjustment Experimentation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
allencon
07-27-06, 11:50 AM Much debate has occurred concerning the relative efficacy of martial/ warrior classes against those that have spell casting abilities. What are presented are hypothetical adjustments to the classes that help augment marital prowress while reducing competition from spellcasters. Ideally these classes would be better fit for a low magic campaign setting. Unless otherwise noted, a class's features remain the same as presented in the PHB 3.5.

Barbarian

Gain: Bonus feat (from the fighter list) at 1rst, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels. Increase reflex save to highest progression.

Bard

Gain: increase hit die to d8
Change: Bards must keep music/song/poetry book with them that contains all of their known spells. To cast a spell the book must be referenced, but it does not add to the casting time of a spell. The songbook functions in all other ways to a wizard's spell book.

Cleric

Change: loose all armor proficientcies. Lose all weapon proficientcies except for simple weapons. Reduce hit die to a d4. Reduce all saves to the lowest progression. Clerics would incur a "divine" spell casting failure chance equal to what the arcane failure rates are for casting while in armor. Reduce base attack progression to the lowest rate. Clerics must also keep a prayer book that contains all their prayers they know. They must use it to prepare these spells and the book functions otherwise as a spell book.

A cleric's would not automatically "know" every spell but rather know only a limitted number which must be recorded in his spell book. A cleric would gain spells per day as a wizard and have a number of spells known as the sorcerer. A cleric's domains spells are gained automatically when he reaches the appropriate level and do not count against his allotment of spells known.
Scribing new spells gained at new levels into a prayer book follows the same procedure as a wizard does.

A cleric would no longer enjoy the ability to spontaneously swap a prepared spell for a cure or inflict wounds spell.

Druid

Change: Reduce hit die to a d6. Lose all spell casting abilities. A druid would only have a limitted number of "known" forms it could wildshape into. The creatures must be of a type the druid is high enough level to assume the form of, and (except for the elemental forms) be creatures native the druid's habitat. In addition a druid may starting at 8th level and every even numbered level afterwards "unlearn" one wild shape form for another suitable form. A druid can only remain in wildshape for a number of rounds equal to 3 + their CON modifier. A druid ending their wild shape form is also fatigued for a number of rounds the same as a barbarian being fatigued after ending his rage.

Character level number of forms known
5 1
6 1
7 1
8 2
9 2
10 2
11 3
12 3
13 3
14 4
15 4
16 4
17 5
18 5
19 5
20 5

Fighter

Gain: bonus feat every level. Increase all saves to highest progression. Increase hit die to d12.

Monk

Gain: Increase hit die to d10. Gain highest progression for BAB. Gain bonus feats at 1rst, 2nd and ever even numbered level. Feats must be selected from the fighter or monk bonus feat list.

Paladin

Change: Lose all spell casting abilities. Increase all saves to the highest progression.

Ranger: Lose all spell casting abilities. Gain bonus feats at 2nd and ever even numbered level. Feats must be from the fighter list. These feats are in addition to the normal combat style feats a ranger gets.

Rogue:

Change: Increase hit die to a d8. Increase all saves to highest progression. Increase BAB to highest progression. Starting at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter, gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat.

Sorcerer and Wizard would be remade into a synergized new "mage" class.

Changes: Retain all features of a wizard except a "mage" only knows a certain number of spells he must prepare from his spell book. A mage gains spells known per level as a sorcerer does. A mage at 1rst level must also select a school of magic. With the exception of his cantrips, and spells with the "universal descriptor" all the spells a mage learns must come from that particular school of magic. A mage cannot cast spells from scrolls or other items that he does not know. A mage of 4th level and higher may "learn" a spell that is not on his chosen school list, but it occupies a known spell slot one higher than it normally would. For instance a 13th level mage wishes who specialized in abjuration wants to learn fireball. It would then take up a "known" 4th level spell slot for him to learn it.

Learning a new spell gained per level follows the same procedures and checks a wizard must make for writing a new spell into a spell book. A Mage casts as often as a wizard does per day. The spells must be prepared from his book of known spells.

Hopefully these changes help balance out the power of spell casting with more martial abilities.
Wolfman1987
07-27-06, 12:14 PM Unfortunately, you can nerf the casters as much as you want (you have some vendetta against clerics?), and you can give the fighters as much power as you want and you just are not going to fix the fundamental problem. It has nothing to do with the strength of the classes, it has to do with the machanics of the game. The caster's strength relies on the fact that spells are more versatile than feats, period. You can give the fighter a huge amount of feats, you can give the spellcasters almost no spells. It doesn't change the fact that a fighter can't turn invisible, or fly, or affect incorporeal foes while a spellcaster can. The warrior classes are not even fundamentally weak. Against foes that their attacks are effective aginst (ie visible, corporeal foes on the ground) a fighter can definitely hold his own. It just happens that spellcasters can defeat all kinds of foes while fighters are forced into a limited scope. IMHO, any revision without completely reworking 3.5 is just going to make the fighters extremly overpowered in some areas and leave them underpowered in others, which doesn't really solve the balance problem.
LordPendragon
07-27-06, 12:50 PM If you really want to help your melee characters out, give them a few extra bonus feats (like 3 or 4) and let them have access to The List (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9692875#post9692875).

Those feats have been in design for a while now, and they should be able to fix a lot of your problems.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
allencon 07-27-06, 11:50 AM	Much debate has occurred concerning the relative efficacy of martial/ warrior classes against those that have spell casting abilities. What are presented are hypothetical adjustments to the classes that help augment marital prowress while reducing competition from spellcasters. Ideally these classes would be better fit for a low magic campaign setting. Unless otherwise noted, a class's features remain the same as presented in the PHB 3.5. Barbarian Gain: Bonus feat (from the fighter list) at 1rst, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels. Increase reflex save to highest progression. Bard Gain: increase hit die to d8 Change: Bards must keep music/song/poetry book with them that contains all of their known spells. To cast a spell the book must be referenced, but it does not add to the casting time of a spell. The songbook functions in all other ways to a wizard's spell book. Cleric Change: loose all armor proficientcies. Lose all weapon proficientcies except for simple weapons. Reduce hit die to a d4. Reduce all saves to the lowest progression. Clerics would incur a "divine" spell casting failure chance equal to what the arcane failure rates are for casting while in armor. Reduce base attack progression to the lowest rate. Clerics must also keep a prayer book that contains all their prayers they know. They must use it to prepare these spells and the book functions otherwise as a spell book. A cleric's would not automatically "know" every spell but rather know only a limitted number which must be recorded in his spell book. A cleric would gain spells per day as a wizard and have a number of spells known as the sorcerer. A cleric's domains spells are gained automatically when he reaches the appropriate level and do not count against his allotment of spells known. Scribing new spells gained at new levels into a prayer book follows the same procedure as a wizard does. A cleric would no longer enjoy the ability to spontaneously swap a prepared spell for a cure or inflict wounds spell. Druid Change: Reduce hit die to a d6. Lose all spell casting abilities. A druid would only have a limitted number of "known" forms it could wildshape into. The creatures must be of a type the druid is high enough level to assume the form of, and (except for the elemental forms) be creatures native the druid's habitat. In addition a druid may starting at 8th level and every even numbered level afterwards "unlearn" one wild shape form for another suitable form. A druid can only remain in wildshape for a number of rounds equal to 3 + their CON modifier. A druid ending their wild shape form is also fatigued for a number of rounds the same as a barbarian being fatigued after ending his rage. Character level number of forms known 5 1 6 1 7 1 8 2 9 2 10 2 11 3 12 3 13 3 14 4 15 4 16 4 17 5 18 5 19 5 20 5 Fighter Gain: bonus feat every level. Increase all saves to highest progression. Increase hit die to d12. Monk Gain: Increase hit die to d10. Gain highest progression for BAB. Gain bonus feats at 1rst, 2nd and ever even numbered level. Feats must be selected from the fighter or monk bonus feat list. Paladin Change: Lose all spell casting abilities. Increase all saves to the highest progression. Ranger: Lose all spell casting abilities. Gain bonus feats at 2nd and ever even numbered level. Feats must be from the fighter list. These feats are in addition to the normal combat style feats a ranger gets. Rogue: Change: Increase hit die to a d8. Increase all saves to highest progression. Increase BAB to highest progression. Starting at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter, gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat. Sorcerer and Wizard would be remade into a synergized new "mage" class. Changes: Retain all features of a wizard except a "mage" only knows a certain number of spells he must prepare from his spell book. A mage gains spells known per level as a sorcerer does. A mage at 1rst level must also select a school of magic. With the exception of his cantrips, and spells with the "universal descriptor" all the spells a mage learns must come from that particular school of magic. A mage cannot cast spells from scrolls or other items that he does not know. A mage of 4th level and higher may "learn" a spell that is not on his chosen school list, but it occupies a known spell slot one higher than it normally would. For instance a 13th level mage wishes who specialized in abjuration wants to learn fireball. It would then take up a "known" 4th level spell slot for him to learn it. Learning a new spell gained per level follows the same procedures and checks a wizard must make for writing a new spell into a spell book. A Mage casts as often as a wizard does per day. The spells must be prepared from his book of known spells. Hopefully these changes help balance out the power of spell casting with more martial abilities.
Wolfman1987 07-27-06, 12:14 PM	Unfortunately, you can nerf the casters as much as you want (you have some vendetta against clerics?), and you can give the fighters as much power as you want and you just are not going to fix the fundamental problem. It has nothing to do with the strength of the classes, it has to do with the machanics of the game. The caster's strength relies on the fact that spells are more versatile than feats, period. You can give the fighter a huge amount of feats, you can give the spellcasters almost no spells. It doesn't change the fact that a fighter can't turn invisible, or fly, or affect incorporeal foes while a spellcaster can. The warrior classes are not even fundamentally weak. Against foes that their attacks are effective aginst (ie visible, corporeal foes on the ground) a fighter can definitely hold his own. It just happens that spellcasters can defeat all kinds of foes while fighters are forced into a limited scope. IMHO, any revision without completely reworking 3.5 is just going to make the fighters extremly overpowered in some areas and leave them underpowered in others, which doesn't really solve the balance problem.
LordPendragon 07-27-06, 12:50 PM	If you really want to help your melee characters out, give them a few extra bonus feats (like 3 or 4) and let them have access to The List (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9692875#post9692875). Those feats have been in design for a while now, and they should be able to fix a lot of your problems.