Post/Author/DateTime	Post
James_Nostack 09-18-06, 11:44 PM	I'm planning a campaign that will stop around Character Level 12, and I wondered how that affects class balance if you never get to the higher levels. For example: I haven't played D&D 3.5 before, but I've heard that wizards are unusually weak at low levels, but become extremely powerful at high levels. I'm worried that if the game stops at Level 12, the wizard will never reach the "pay-off," and thus would be sub-optimal choice. 1. Is this true? 2. How should it be addressed? Ideally, I'd like a solution that's OGL. PS. To save people the trouble of comparing every class vs. every other class, the classes I'm using for the game are: * Bard * Cleric * Fighter * Ranger * Rogue * Wizard and... * Assassin * Blackguard * Dragon Disciple * Eldritch Knight * Horizon Walker * Mystic Theurge
Generic Poster 09-19-06, 12:16 AM	wizards can get quite powerful by level 12, and even at early levels there are some good spells that can turn the tables in combat as well. Even at the earliest levels you have sleep and color spray for examples of good 1st level spells, which can knock out several opponents at the time, while the rest of the party is hacking away one opponent at time (unless they get in a lucky cleave). As long as the wizard stays far away from melee (the rest of the party should be helping in this regard), then the wizard is fine even at low levels. If he does run out of spells early, he can invest in a missle weapon or later on a wand of magic missles so he still has something to do. With a little extra money, he can also scribe scrolls for both utility situations and for emergency fire power. A mixed party with mages, divine spell casters, warriors and roguish characters is just going to be stronger then if every one takes similar characters at all levels of the game, that's where the real payoff lies, that is in the cooperative nature of the game and way synergistic strategies allow parties to become alot stronger then the sum of the individual members. So to answer your question, even a low level wizard will become fairly strong if the party sits down a works out a strategy for combat, then you'll be surprised at how useful even a low level wizard can become. If your still bothered by the wizard being a little weaker in early levels then other party members, just give them plenty of time to rest between combat at early levels to regain spells, and make sure that there clues for the observant lying around since having some idea of what's coming will help the wizard prepare the right spells for the occassion. As the wizard advances in level and becomes powerful, you'll probably want to take these advantages away at least occassionally so other classes with more endurance get a chance to shine.
tiercel 09-19-06, 02:25 AM	I'd actually argue that the Core classes are in general much better balanced against each other over levels 1-12 than levels 1-20. Much above level 12, it is often taken as canonical truth that Full Spellcasting Wins. You could probably come up with special cases, certainly "gish" characters which have near-full spellcasting and better-than-nonspellcaster melee prowess when buffed up, but in general the more spellcasting you have at high levels, the harder you win. At levels 1-4, pure spellcasters will feel a bit of the crunch just from limited spells per day. That doesn't mean they are *weak* per se, but that they are support for nonspellcasters and/or strong for a few rounds per day. Even at low levels spellcasting is important -- sleep and color spray can nuke a low-level battle, bless and enlarge person can swing the odds toward your hitters, and cure light wounds is a combat healing spell. At levels 5-8, pure spellcasters start feeling more of their full power -- not only are they slinging around 3rd-4th level spells, getting some real oomph, but there are increasingly fewer instances where they just run out of spells. In terms of "raw power" they are drawing even in terms of regular combat output, or ahead for short periods of time. At levels 9-12, pure spellcasters start going through a transition heading toward dominance. Game-changers like teleport and heal enter the game, and spellcasters at these levels have magic to get through the day and to spare; buffing, utility, divination spells can be used more often. This latter effect can keep nonspellcasters still highly relevant in a party of this level, but by level 12 nonspellcasting (or very little spellcasting, like the ranger) characters will be more in a support role. Beyond level 12, nonspellcasting characters need excellent builds, equipment, and/or lots of help from spellcasting buddies to stay competitive. At the highest levels nonspellcasters can often be almost irrelevant compared to a well-built spellcasting character. I wouldn't worry about class imbalance -- if you get to level 12 or so, and that's about it, spellcasters will be plenty strong, they are just a lot less likely to have reached the point of making nonspellcasters nigh-obsolescent. (Besides, sometimes campaigns have a way of sneaking into higher levels than you first imagined -- and high level play can be interesting. Just expect lots of spellcasting characters at some point; PC death will result in fewer nonspellcaster replacement PCs than casters.)
WayneTheGame 09-19-06, 07:17 AM	If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the game only playtested until around 12th level, which would mean that 1-12 is the most balanced?
babysamurai 09-19-06, 08:54 AM	If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the game only playtested until around 12th level, which would mean that 1-12 is the most balanced? If that’s true, that’s incredibly lame.
Puca 09-19-06, 09:45 AM	In my experience, around level 12 is where casters really take off and can become far more powerful, relative to non-casters, than they were at lower levels. But even at level-one, a wizard can hold his own for at least 2 encounters and has a lot to offer out of combat. Once they have the gold and a few xp to scribe scrolls, they are never weak again.
Karn_Maradis 09-19-06, 09:52 AM	When you feel there is an amount of imbalance in favor of the spellcaster, try using monsters with spell-resistance, high saves, immunities and globe of invulnerability.. I have the idea this is often missed in analysis' about high level (not denying that spellcasters are too strong or fightertypes are too weak at low level tough). Think of golems, dragons, undead and the like. I agree with Tiercel about lvl3-4 to lvl8 being the most balanced levels. Spells don't get too strong (drastical immunities, teleport, save-or-die spells). Beware of the impact certain spells can have. I think of dimension door, improved invisibility and fly.
Echodork 09-19-06, 10:30 AM	At level 2, you will probably notice the Fighter and Ranger performing extremely well. These classes get off to a very good start, with several free bonus feats in the first levels. They come out of the gate with strong melee ability, even with nonmagical weapons. The Cleric will also do well, as he starts with some melee ability to augment his early spells. The Wizard would do well to pick up a light crossbow or other ranged weapon, as he won't have much to contribute after the first couple battles if he casts all of his spells. Your Bard starts off with good saving throws, and he gets one of his best songs (inspire courage) right away. Many Rogues struggle with combat at the very low levels, because they can't take Weapon Finesse until level 3 (requires a +1 BAB). At level 7, things are starting to level out. The Fighter is still getting feats, and the Ranger is probably starting to spread his non-combat skills out a bit. The Cleric has plenty of healing, and has enough spells per day that he can contribute some buffing and utility as well. Your Wizard can throw Fireballs, or he can use Enchantment and Illusion to affect both combat and diplomacy. The Bard has grown into an effective frontman, charismatic and convincing, though his combat skill is (and will remain) somewhat mediocre. The Rogue is a trap-finding machine, and he is able to use his stealth to aid the party in combat with well-placed sneak attacks. At level 12, the spellcasters begin to dominate. The Fighter is still getting feats, but unless you're including a lot of non-core rulebooks, he's probably running out of useful feats to take. The Ranger has all of his combat style feats, but unless he's regularly fighting his Favored Enemies, he may find himself outmatched in combat. The Cleric is a regular battle platform now, capable of buffing, healing, or destroying foes with spells like Slay Living. The Wizard can deal incredible damage, affect his foes' minds, create powerful illusions, raise undead followers, craft powerful items, and move around the world instantly. The Bard makes an excellent diplomat and party face, though his role in combat is now decidedly support. The Rogue continues to ensure the party's safety from traps, and he is finding more ways to flex his combat muscles with skills like Opportunist or Crippling Strike.
solbergb 09-19-06, 01:36 PM	wizards and sorcs are only weak in low levels if they use a crossbow instead of scrolls purchased or (in the case of wizards) scribed. They're so cheap at those levels there isn't any excuse not to be casting spells every round. You won't hit with the crossbow. You really won't. So you aren't contributing when you use it. The other observations are pretty sound. Each spell tier ramps the caster's ability to transform the game, where the melee types just get a steady increase in ability to hit and damage things. All is well if the casters hang their best buffs on the melees and help them get into position or block counterattacks. Things are not so good if the casters decide they want to be melees and step on the role. Casters as artillery also works less well than cooperative play, since even the best blaster spells can't keep up with physical damage output...unless the fighter types are unsupported and incapable of getting to where they can do damage. If everyone plays solo, the balance breakdown is much like everyone else described. I have seen some quite amazing things though in APL16 play when the focus was on buffing the party scout for stealth, party archer for attack power, party tank for defense and offense....and then using the top tier spells for controlling what enemies were capable of doing to respond. It usually worked a lot better than the "every man for himself" approach. As for SR - SR is nothing more than a nuisance. It's similar to a high AC monster for a warrior type. Some casters can just punch through it, just like the best attacking warriors hit the AC anyway. Some casters though, just work around it, using either SR=no spells or even more effectively, especially from a spell slot standpoint, dividing up the battlefield with SR=no blocking spells and letting the fighters blenderize the enemies one at a time, possibly with supporting buffs. Teamwork works better than everyone going solo, at all levels. But if everyone DOES go solo at high levels, primary casters are self-sufficient, and the fighter types aren't so much.
Puca 09-19-06, 02:52 PM	wizards and sorcs are only weak in low levels if they use a crossbow instead of scrolls purchased or (in the case of wizards) scribed. They're so cheap at those levels there isn't any excuse not to be casting spells every round. You won't hit with the crossbow. You really won't. So you aren't contributing when you use it.I usually agree with most of what solbergb says about casters, and I agree with the rest of his post except for the above. At low levels, and I mean levels 1 and 2 not 7, a wizard or a sorcerer can be one of the best archers in the party. At those levels, hes only one point of BAB behind the fighter or ranger, and equal to the rogue. The caster likely has an above-average DEX as well. Rangers and, likely, rogues will hit at range a little more often, but thats about it. Now, if he can hit with a crossbow hes doubly likely to hit with a ranged-touch attack, but this is the point where they have so few spell options, especially the wizard, and additionally, the crossbow probably has better range. Knowing this, a caster can use those spell slots or spells-known for something else. A caveat is that loading a crossbow is a move action, and casters have to be careful not to get caught in melee.
Tony Vargas 09-19-06, 03:10 PM	I'm planning a campaign that will stop around Character Level 12, and I wondered how that affects class balance if you never get to the higher levels.The game is balanced pretty well from levels 1-10. You should see few problems, in fact, you'll probably avoid some. I'm worried that if the game stops at Level 12, the wizard will never reach the "pay-off," and thus would be sub-optimal choice.The effect isn't nearly as pronounced as it was in earlier versions of the game, the Wizard is now basically viable even at 1st level (fragile, and needs to be creative to contribute - but still viable), and from 3rd on should have no issues. Depending on the style of the wizard, the 'pay off' will start as early as 5th. * Cleric * Fighter * Ranger * RogueAll perfectly fine from level 1-10. * Bard * WizardMay need some creativity to contribute at very low level. The Bard also works best the more people there are making attack rolls in the party - a caster heavy party benefits less than a melee and archery heavy one. * Assassin * BlackguardStrictly for the baddies, I hope. Since PrCs require you to meet preqs first, you can't ever start as one, so the lower the top level of the campaign, the less time you'll spend in the PrC. If playing the PrC class /is/ the character concept, that could be frustrating - more so the higher the preqs. * Eldritch Knight * Horizon WalkerI believe these'd be OK. The EK is still primarily a caster, just one with a better BAB and some martial options, and it only lags one level behind. The player will be an 'EK to be' longer than he'll be an EK, though, and might even want to take whatever class he plans to get Martial Weapon Proficiency from early, in spite of the CL hit, if he wants the character to feel like an EK at all early on. * Mystic TheurgeYou can't even become a Mystic Theurge (barring sneaky tricks) until your 7th character level. While one can start as a Cleric to be more effective at low level, once he switches to wizard, he'll be hurting. The MT also needs two caster stats, so if you're using a low-point buy, that hurts. I suppose you could tweak the MT, maybe allow a character to qualify with 3rd level Divine and First level Arcane spells, or vice-versa? Then again, a well-played MT can contribute even through it's difficult levels, it just has to focus on a 'support' role. * Dragon DiscipleQuestionable. To really feel the potential of this class, you'd want to take all 10 levels, and that's not really an option. You may want to reduce the preqs so a character could jump to DD at his 3rd character level, and thus have a shot at getting all 10 levels.
OneWinged4ngel 09-19-06, 03:23 PM	I'm planning a campaign that will stop around Character Level 12, and I wondered how that affects class balance if you never get to the higher levels. For example: I haven't played D&D 3.5 before, but I've heard that wizards are unusually weak at low levels, but become extremely powerful at high levels. I'm worried that if the game stops at Level 12, the wizard will never reach the "pay-off," and thus would be sub-optimal choice. 1. Is this true? 2. How should it be addressed? Ideally, I'd like a solution that's OGL. PS. To save people the trouble of comparing every class vs. every other class, the classes I'm using for the game are: * Bard * Cleric * Fighter * Ranger * Rogue * Wizard and... * Assassin * Blackguard * Dragon Disciple * Eldritch Knight * Horizon Walker * Mystic Theurge Wizards are not unusually weak at low levels, they just take some intelligence to play well and are vulnerable. From level 1, they can clear a room of bad guys with Color Spray... and have various utilities. Never underestimate how useful cantrips can be... such as Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation. A wizard is NEVER a suboptimal choice; he always fills a role in the party. Fighters are useful at lower levels by virtue of a martial weapon proficiency and a decent hit die in itself being a dangerous thing. Bards, Rangers, Rogues, Clerics, and Wizards are all useful, but the Ranger and Fighter fall off some as you approach 12.. though the Ranger can do better if he has access to some of the cooler spells from supplements. Dragon Disciple sucks, Eldritch Knight is replaceable by a midlevel spell and really is only used to progress gish builds with other PrCs, Assassin just doesn't work out, Blackguard's alright for the paladin, and Mystic Theurge will get a great deal of versatility and can be pretty handy. If the Wizard knows what he's doing, he can start owning the field of battle from level 5 or 6. Never underestimate wizards.
solbergb 09-19-06, 03:32 PM	At low levels, and I mean levels 1 and 2 not 7, a wizard or a sorcerer can be one of the best archers in the party. . Ok here's the deal. A real archer in levels 1-2 has these: High strength and javelin plus precise shot or rapid shot and strength bow (level 2 only) He'll do twice the damage wizard would do with a crossbow. Furthermore if the wizard didn't invest two feats into precise shot, he'll hit a hell of a lot more often. The typical situation with ranged combat is you take a -4 or -8 to hit. (either cover or in melee or both). A "real" archer takes only a 0 or -4 and can usually also in the level 1-2 range just switch to a strong melee attack if he doesn't want to take the -4 for cover. A typical enemy has an AC of, say 14. The wiz will hit him maybe half the time if he's in the open. If he's in either of the -4 situations, that drops to one in four. If it is in both, he's now hitting 1 in 10 or 1 in 20. That isn't worth an action, when a 25gp scroll will hit 100% of the time and do the same damage. Carry four scrolls of magic missile around, and use them to finish off wounded targets and your party will LOVE you (instead of having the fighters whiff for several rounds while you ineffectually plink and miss with xbow). Use spell slots for better things, and have scrolls of other good stuff (obscure mist, ray enfeeble, truestrike for disarms, enlarge person) for when the enemy isn't hurt. Try to work in tanglefoot bags...those are about as good as a second level spell, and touch AC's are a couple lower than normal AC's even in the baby levels. In both scenarios assume the wiz is out of spells Caster #1 (the solbergb way) R1. Owlbear is in the open. Throw tanglefoot bag, dropping its attack and AC by 2. R2. Fighters and owlbear are now battling away. Ready grease scroll to counter grapple attempt on a fighter that is hit. R3 or 4...owlbear is now badly wounded. Shoot it with magic missile scroll and finish it off. Caster #2 (the crossbow way) R1: Owlbear is in the open. 50% chance of doing d8 damage R2: Owlbear is in melee and under cover. Either shoot and miss on anything but a 20 or try to move to where the fighters are not in the way R3-4: Hit 1 in 4 on the owlbear. The crossbow contribution is 1-2 hits, 4.5-9 points of damage. The solbergb approach greatly reduces the risk to the party fighters (imparing mobility/taking away 5' steps, impariing to-hit rolls, protecting against the improved grapple) and does 3.5 damage...but at the time when it is most helpful. I know which approach I'd prefer as a fighter on that team. My approach costs 100gp...but that's only for fights when I'm out of spell slots. My more typical burn rate was about 25gp a combat. I've never seen an arcanist or even a cleric contribute anything meaningful with a crossbow at any level. I have seen very effective low level arcanists and clerics who cast spells every round of combat in the baby levels, using scrolls when their slots run out. Total cost before level 3 (when you have a lot more spell slots) is under 1000gp, and worth every penny. Nothing else you can buy in that level range has anywhere near the same impact, plus you'll keep the best of those scrolls the rest of your career, having learne which ones have the most impact. Part of making an arcanist work at the baby levels is also making use of your cantrips. Daze is very effective if your DC's are normal or better, and the various detect and utility spells can also save the party resources down the line.
Keenath 09-19-06, 03:46 PM	If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the game only playtested until around 12th level, which would mean that 1-12 is the most balanced? As I understand it, this was true of 3.0; Some of the 3.5 changes were intended to address some of the problems they'd discovered in further testing. The PHB2 includes a ton of high-end feats for fighters and other non-spellcasters -- while they may not allow you to stay relevant all the way to 20, you can stay useful a lot longer, especially as a fighter. The nature of spellcasting is to advance geometrically, while normal combat advances mostly-linearly (it has breakpoints when you gain an extra attack, but each additional attack tends to be a smaller jump than the previous one), so the 8th (to some extent) and the all-powerful 9th level spells are the worst in terms of making everyone else irrelevant.
tiercel 09-19-06, 07:12 PM	Re: mages and crossbows. The thing about the earliest levels is that from experience I find that the gold and amount of downtime available are sporadic -- eventually they level out at what you'd expect, but you don't have a smooth flow of incoming money from every fight which can be instantly processed into scrolls and alchemical items. During those "lean times," you want an extra avenue of contributing, and a crossbow gives you a way to do so. Yeah, you're not a great shot, but as has been pointed out, you're not a lousy shot compared to just about anyone else in the party besides a dedicated archer. Don't get me wrong -- I definitely agree that at levels 1-2 you should be leveraging cantrips for combat utility, and when you do have time and money you should be building a small reserve of scrolls and alchemy items against lean times ahead. Having a crossbow is a viable fallback option, though. ----- As for PrCs -- I'd agree that "multiclassing" PrCs are probably less worth it in a campaign that caps at 12. Almost by definition, multiclass builds take longer to "pay off" than single class ones; someone who goes Eldritch Knight or especially Mystic Theurge will spend much of the game in a suboptimal position and only just start to get "to the good stuff" about the time the game is wrapping up. If you're interested in allowing Eldritch Knight into a level 1-12 game, I would suggest looking at Duskblade from PHB II instead. It's sort of like a single-class EK from level 1. It never achieves the same spellcasting breadth, ability, power that an EK does, but is a viable, ready-to-go class from the beginning without the intervening "awkward levels," and has a few nifty tricks of its own. Of course, that opens up the can of worms of adding extra books, which you may be avoiding for this campaign, which is fair enough -- just a thought.
James_Nostack 09-19-06, 10:17 PM	Thank you for all of these thoughtful, insightful responses. I appreciate it very much. One thing I was thinking about was using the 3x a day "Spontaneous Metamagic" option from Unearthed Arcana, to allow casters a little bit more power (and to spare my players some bookkeeping), but it doesn't really address the low-level power balance. So, I'm glad to hear that it's not as big an issue as I thought. Regarding the Prestige Classes - I'm aware that they're not perfect and that PrC's work better once you get a chance to "top out." I'm mainly including them for role-playing and setting considerations, rather than power-gaming, so balance bothers me a little less--there would be compensating "soft" factors for the interested players. Thanks a lot!
Votan 09-20-06, 12:41 AM	I've never seen an arcanist or even a cleric contribute anything meaningful with a crossbow at any level. I have seen very effective low level arcanists and clerics who cast spells every round of combat in the baby levels, using scrolls when their slots run out. Total cost before level 3 (when you have a lot more spell slots) is under 1000gp, and worth every penny. Nothing else you can buy in that level range has anywhere near the same impact, plus you'll keep the best of those scrolls the rest of your career, having learne which ones have the most impact. Part of making an arcanist work at the baby levels is also making use of your cantrips. Daze is very effective if your DC's are normal or better, and the various detect and utility spells can also save the party resources down the line. This assumes an environment where these items are easily made or purchased. While true of many campaign settings, I am not sure that it generalizes. I do, however, think that the cantrip list is an important and often overlooked resources. Highlighting Daze is good -- for a low level spell it has been surprisingly effective at denying dangerous foes actions in my games.
IbanezNinja 09-20-06, 01:45 AM	This assumes an environment where these items are easily made or purchased. While true of many campaign settings, I am not sure that it generalizes. Wizards get scribe scroll at first level. :)
tiercel 09-20-06, 06:25 AM	Wizards get scribe scroll at first level. :)Having Scribe Scroll and actually being able to scribe scrolls are not the same thing, as with all crafting feats. Yes, generally at some point(s) there will be the opportunity to do so, but you can't just assume that loot will be steadily gained and instantly transfigured into useful scroll resources in the field. During those times, having a crossbow fallback is a handy thing.
solbergb 09-20-06, 02:55 PM	This assumes an environment where these items are easily made or purchased. While true of many campaign settings, I am not sure that it generalizes. It's true of the default setting. 25gp stuff can be bought just about anywhere. If it's not true, there is a significant crimp put in an arcane caster's power, and to a lesser extent divine casters (divine casters can sub as "bad fighters" better than arcane can sub as "bad archers). That however, is a campaign consideration, similar to those "low magic" campaigns that don't restrict casters but prevent the fighters from getting the equipment they need (which adds an artificial weakness past level 4 or so on noncasters) I'll point out that wizards really have no advantage vs sorcerers here. Scribe scroll lets you effectively have more spell slots, but you're stuck with the same spells you leveled up with. Both wiz and sorc *must* have a fairly broad access to 1st level scrolls at low levels to perform at the expected levels. The fact that some dont probably contributes to the "Arcane are weak at low levels" myth. They aren't...if they have expected access to consumables and expected cash for their level. At least they aren't after the very first adventure, when they'll have some cash to buy such things. I don't think a crossbow is a bad investment for a situation that takes you away from home base for extended periods...but most low level parties aren't capable of that for other reasons too. If you can manage the extra weight it's cool...just reach for it as your LAST option and not your first. (my sorceress carried a crossbow for about 6 levels just in case. She fired it exactly once..and missed.) I do, however, think that the cantrip list is an important and often overlooked resources. Highlighting Daze is good -- for a low level spell it has been surprisingly effective at denying dangerous foes actions in my games. Yeah. Not enough people think through cantrip selection in low levels. Most use them strictly for utility, the way they do at higher levels. IMHO, that's taking away 3-5 combat actions that are potentially superior to usually missing with a crossbow :)
tiercel 09-21-06, 07:35 PM	It's true of the default setting. 25gp stuff can be bought just about anywhere.Theoretically, you can find items worth *up to* 25gp just about anywhere. That does not mean that you can plausibly find exactly the item you want in any little one-horse town, as long as it is worth 40gp (thorp gp limit) or less. It's pretty generally agreed that there is no real viable D&D model of economics given by the rules alone. However, most DMs in my experience will, unless they want a deliberately high-magic feel to their world, NOT have a Advent-Ur-Mart in every thorp which stocks a scroll of every single 1st level spell (at least without particularly costly M component) allowed in that campaign world on the off chance that when Main Characters come through, they will be able to purchase any scroll they'd like. Yes, I can read DMG p.137 too, but I think that many DMs would, barring special circumstances, have a little bit of a problem with a hamlet of 90 people that happened to have 30 longswords lying around for sale. (I'd imagine that if there were even 30 longswords in the hamlet, they would be the personal weaponry of the hamlet's highly mobilized and well-trained militia, at best.) You might be able to commission swords, using the usual Craft rules, from the Com3 blacksmith or whoever in town, but come on.... In a world with a certain degree of verisimilitude, DMs aren't just going to have magical scrolls lying around little six-family towns without a good reason. Of course, if you have the PC's home base be a little bigger than this, you can avoid this problem (base them in a large town with a modest wizards' enclave, for example). Even so, you can't count on a smooth steady flow of wealth into scrolls. First of all, income is typically sporadic in nature. You may have several combats which yield little or no gold (e.g. animals, vermin), and then others which "catch you up" (successfully routing and looting the bandit camp). Second of all, your chance to spend income is also often sporadic in nature. You may not necessarily have a chance to return directly to Town (or take downtime to scribe scrolls, assuming you've already invested in the special materials you'll need) after every adventure, much less after every adventuring day. Eventually, yes, as things smooth out you shouldn't have a problem making scrolls to tide you through, but you can't expect to obtain exactly 75gp for every EL 1 fight, which instantly converts into six 1st-level self-scribed scrolls (and -6 XP). Finally, a crossbow gives you something useful to do when a fight is in "mop-up" phases. When you have a limited number of spells per day, and limited resources for scrolls, you don't want to be burning spells when your party, still in good shape, has whittled the 6 enemy goblins down to 2 and is about the charge the survivors. Save your spells and items for the next significant encounter and just take potshots if reasonably practical. To be a valuable addition to the party, a wizard does not have to try and outperform his nonspellcasting party members *every round*. (That will happen naturally enough at higher levels.) He just needs to make a significant contribution to each fight. In some fights, a single successful spell (e.g. color spray, grease, sleep, enlarge person) may be enough to swing the battle -- so let your partymates win the rest of the battle, and don't worry about setting your moneypouch on fire to try and win it single-handedly.
solbergb 09-21-06, 08:52 PM	Those are all good points, and as I said, you don't need to eschew the crossbow...things happen. But most towns actually do have a level 1 wizard. He'll make money selling the spells he DOES know on scrolls. You could commission more, so when you come back from your adventure, a fresh set is waiting for you. It might not be every spell you want, but a stack of enlarge, or magic missile, or whatever scrolls give you a bigger contribution than your crossbow. you can also visit the town alchemist, or put in an order with the travelling merchant who DOES go to the big city and ask for bigger supplies. It isn't a matter of outcontributing the others (the flashy spells in the low levels only work well out of your head anyway, scroll DC's are too low) but a matter of pulling your weight and not being a commoner-with-a-crossbow for 3000xp of work. At other levels, casters are expected to actually cast spells most rounds of a fight, until the fight is already won. (then they can indulge in mop-up activities which aren't expected to work meaningfully but might possibly help if you get lucky such as shooting a crossbow...) I don't see why level 1-2 should be any different. Once you're in an area and making money, you can to some extent dictate the supply by providing the demand. As long as there *is* a source of production anywhere in the area. You may be limited in exactly what you can have (perhaps acid vials are easy to find, but alch fire isn't) but you can probably find something if you aren't in the howling wilderness. I've played in an environment where scrolls weighed 3 lbs each and where civilization had pretty much collapsed. But the existance of a few wizards (whom I promptly made friends with and swapped spells with) - one in a small town, several in the big city) meant that some things could in fact just be purchased, or at least purchased a week from now after putting in an order. Likewise the big city had one and only one "magic shop". It was usually empty, it was not so much a magic-mart as a guy who knew all the producers in a week's ride and could tell you what was available and ask around if you had something you wanted made. He also provided a market for most nonweapon stuff that was magic whihc we didn't want. He then presumably found buyers in other places via his counterparts. So yeah, it isn't always as simple as getting it the second you show up, and the very early days will mean you won't have those consumables. But it isn't actually hard, even with a "real" economy to start commissioning the stuff you want made, even if the economy is still half-barter....you're adventurers, you'll either find magic or in the case of wizards, even make magic to trade if cash alone won't do it. That's also not taking a few other things into account. If there is a viable military, that includes spellcasters, then there will be folks who do nothing but make cure potions/wands/scrolls and the most common spells of other sorts that the military might want. Those same items will be commonly available to PC's for the right price, either as surplus, or grey/black market or because some stupid military type goes bandit and attacks them, and has that kind of equipment. It's easier to make a first level scroll than to make a dagger, in terms of crafting time. Barring a shortage in spell ink (which my aforementioned campaign also had) or similar resource, it's a 1 day job, with a 12.5gp profit. Better than most trades. Presumably the level 1 wizards occasionally go into the sewers to keep the dire rat population down or something to cover the xp aspect.