Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tygreen101 09-11-07, 09:18 PM	cleric vs. wizard game stats and role play considered cleric gets average BAB where wizard gets poor. ok, the wizard is cloistered cleric gets d8 where wizard get d4 ok, the wizard is cloistered cleric casts spells in any armor wizard no armor ok the wizard is cloistered. cleric gets to cast as many spells per day as a specialist wizard .... WHAT?!?!? cleric gets to cast offensive spells wizard casts offensive spells cleric casts defensive spells. wizard casts defensive spells cleric can heal wizards can't can some one explain to me why ANYONE would think these two core classes are balanced with each other?
tombowings 09-11-07, 09:31 PM	First of all, they aren't balanced to one another, the cleric is superior to the wizard. I'll just list a few of the trade off you haven't mentioned below: Wizards have more powerful and flashier spells. They have spells for just about every purpose (exept healing), while the cleric's spell list is based around buffing, healing, and being about to preform spells that manipulate divine power. In addition, wizards usually have more skill points, as their spellcasting stat is Intelligence. Clerics on the other hand have better class skills. One thing that most DM's forget is that clerics are tied to their gods have to rely on the for spells. Gods can send their clerics on mission and command them to follow certain codes of conduct.
Spikes01k 09-11-07, 09:39 PM	Wizards have more powerful and flashier spells. They have spells for just about every purpose (exept healing), while the cleric's spell list is based around buffing, healing, and being about to preform spells that manipulate divine power. In addition, wizards usually have more skill points, as their spellcasting stat is Intelligence. Clerics on the other hand have better class skills. Instint death spells anyone??? Clerics can top any damage spells with that one. One thing that most DM's forget is that clerics are tied to their gods have to rely on the for spells. Gods can send their clerics on mission and command them to follow certain codes of conduct. No their not, they don't have to be tied to any alignment via standard core rules.
tombowings 09-11-07, 10:17 PM	Instint death spells anyone??? Clerics can top any damage spells with that one. I wouldn't call those "flashy spells." Be flashy I mean spells like Disjunction, Crushing Hand, or Clone. I haven't had much experience outside of core, so that may have something to do with it. To each his own, I guess. No their not, they don't have to be tied to any alignment via standard core rules. I never said anything about being tied to alignment. I said being tied to a god. If they gain spells from a god, that god has every right to stop sending them divine spells. From Page 33 of the PHB " A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god looses all spells and class features, est."
Crimson_Concerto 09-11-07, 11:00 PM	Simple answer? Wizard Spell List > Cleric Spell List
Spikes01k 09-11-07, 11:01 PM	I never said anything about being tied to alignment. I said being tied to a god. If they gain spells from a god, that god has every right to stop sending them divine spells. From Page 33 of the PHB " A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god looses all spells and class features, est." Sorry I meant deity. It also says in the PHB that they do not need to worship a deity to be a cleric.
tombowings 09-11-07, 11:26 PM	Sorry I meant deity. It also says in the PHB that they do not need to worship a deity to be a cleric. In that case you should keep them very true to their alignment - about the same, if not more so, than a Paladin.
tombowings 09-11-07, 11:29 PM	Two more points: A) A cleric will end up using some of their spell slots for healing. Which, in most cases, takes away from the cleric's raw power in battle, but shows how valuable of a party member the cleric is. B) Clerics benefit much more than wizards from supplements. Since they know every spell on their list, they know all spells in any supplement you may be lugging around. More options to prepare = more flexibility = more power. Therefore, once many supplements are added, cleric's spell list > wizard's spell list.
Kazuhiro 09-12-07, 12:04 AM	Simple answer? Wizard Spell List > Cleric Spell ListSee, this is not only grossly insufficient-- it's not always true. To start, cleric spells may not be very good for blowing stuff up, but a well-chosen divine spell can be much more destructive than an average or low-level arcane spell. For example, Inflict Wounds works just fine as an attack spell, and buffing up with Bull's Strength, the Strength domain, or the War domain will make your Wizard cry. Magic Circle, in the right situation, can work wonders, and you should never underestimate a Contagion or Bestow Curse. And then there's the fact that Clerics actually do get attack spells, eventually. I mentioned Inflict Wounds, but it's not really a reliable attack. FLAME STRIKE, anyone? And this is nothing compared to when your party's Evil-aligned Cleric gets his hands on a copy of Libris Mortis. My cleric can use two turn attempts to fire what he affectionately calls a "death ray," which blasts everything in a 30-foot cone for 1d6 and then actually HEALS him for all the damage dealt. That 1d6 doesn't increase with level, but, well... he's level 3. Blasting all the kobolds in a 30-foot cone for 1d6 basically means he can wipe out an encounter, three times a day, as a standard action. And then... and THEN he starts raising undead, and using Corpsecrafter on them. ..although, imho, Druids are even worse. I hate Clerics. I truly hate Clerics.
tombowings 09-12-07, 12:39 AM	I hate Clerics. I truly hate Clerics. Glad I'm not the only one.
navar100 09-12-07, 01:08 AM	I hate Clerics. I truly hate Clerics. Glad I'm not the only one. I smite thee, heathens! Clerics rule!
ManTimeForgot 09-12-07, 03:45 AM	Wizards also have to deal with protecting their spell books like its the hope diamond, whereas clerics can practically spraypaint their holy symbol on their shields and call it a day. But in all seriousness if the game is worked correctly the cleric is dependent on DM fiat, much more so than perhaps most actually play at. A cleric requests his spells; this means a DM has an absolute right to refuse to grant certain spells and/or replace them with different spells (this can work to a player's advantage since ostensibly his god is looking out for him, so if a cleric is in a place teeming with undead and the cleric forgets the undeath to death spell the deity can have his back and make sure he picks it up). Another thing which tends to be glossed over (at least in my experience) is religious practice. How many D&D clerics when they are in town go around doing the work of their deities? How many cleric players consider whether or not their adventuring is indeed the will of their deity? How does this adventuring foster the religion of the deity or advance the deity's interests? If you go completely by the mechanical advantages afforded to each class, then the clerical class definitely beats out the wizard, and since the flavor text for the cleric is rather vague about his duties and relationship with the divine this allows for way too much leeway. MTF
goawayugh 09-12-07, 07:27 AM	Shadowcraft Mage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556) anyone? Although, if we are talking Cleric 20 vs. Wizard 20, than a Cleric is, by FAR, more superior!
gullas 09-12-07, 11:59 AM	I smite thee, heathens! Clerics rule! thou shall be executed if thou survive the smiting;)
Nightshade 09-12-07, 12:05 PM	Wizards also have to deal with protecting their spell books like its the hope diamond, whereas clerics can practically spraypaint their holy symbol on their shields and call it a day. But in all seriousness if the game is worked correctly the cleric is dependent on DM fiat, much more so than perhaps most actually play at. A cleric requests his spells; this means a DM has an absolute right to refuse to grant certain spells and/or replace them with different spells (this can work to a player's advantage since ostensibly his god is looking out for him, so if a cleric is in a place teeming with undead and the cleric forgets the undeath to death spell the deity can have his back and make sure he picks it up). Another thing which tends to be glossed over (at least in my experience) is religious practice. How many D&D clerics when they are in town go around doing the work of their deities? How many cleric players consider whether or not their adventuring is indeed the will of their deity? How does this adventuring foster the religion of the deity or advance the deity's interests? If you go completely by the mechanical advantages afforded to each class, then the clerical class definitely beats out the wizard, and since the flavor text for the cleric is rather vague about his duties and relationship with the divine this allows for way too much leeway. MTF I agree with what is said here. Obviously, this is campaign and DM dependent. The problem is... it should not be campaign and DM dependent. It should be written into the rules because it needs a mechanical aspect. For example: (1) All clerics must Tithe their faiths. (Now wizards would have a 10% advantage in gp). (2) All clerics must visit a church or holy site, if it is nearby, unless doing so would violate other aspects of their faith (such as a good cleric in a situation where lives are endangered). [Insert new rule here]
BW0222 09-12-07, 02:15 PM	tygreen101, cleric vs. wizard game stats and role play considered You forgot a few. Wizard has vastly more powerful offensive spells. Magic missile, scorching ray, lightning bolt, etc. Wizard has the best area control spells. Grease, web, stinking cloud, solid fog, etc. Clerics can't dream of these. Wizard has vastly more powerful miscellaneous spells. Identify, alarm, invisibility, rope trick, etc. Wizard has vastly more powerful defensive spells. Mage armor, mirror image, displacement, etc. Wizard has a familiar. Scouting, spying, assisting, delivering messages, etc. Wizard has vastly more skill points and skills. This makes them far more useful in research, planning, and indentifying monsters. Wizard has more feats. Scribe scroll is free and bonus metamagic and item creation are also possible. In many cases, the clerics abilities are conflicting. Combat in D&D favors specialists. A fighter or barbarian can barely go toe-to-toe against most higher APL creatures - say a hill giant at APL 7. Baring a really specialized build, a cleric can't do this any better than a wizard. He has the same goal as the wizard -- get out of melee where he can do some good (healing in his case). Honestly, at mid APLs, the clerics role is do heal round after round. He needs so much buffing to equal the fighter that he typically doesn't get a chance. Would the cleric be a better solo campaign (or small party) choice over the wizard? Sure, although the druid would likely be the best. However, when adventuring with a party, the cleric doesn't dominate the game more than the wizard. The wizard is still extremely useful in combat -- area control spells, blasting folks from a distance, getting through nasty DR, etc. Hit points and AC aren't really an issue because someone else is up front. Out of combat the wizard is extremely useful from all those knowledge checks to having his familiar scout, to all those useful miscellaneous spells. Classes are balanced enough in the context of the four person party.
navar100 09-12-07, 04:39 PM	I agree with what is said here. Obviously, this is campaign and DM dependent. The problem is... it should not be campaign and DM dependent. It should be written into the rules because it needs a mechanical aspect. For example: (1) All clerics must Tithe their faiths. (Now wizards would have a 10% advantage in gp). (2) All clerics must visit a church or holy site, if it is nearby, unless doing so would violate other aspects of their faith (such as a good cleric in a situation where lives are endangered). [Insert new rule here] Those are roleplaying "fixes", which the game should not impose. People already have a hard time with paladin and monk multiclassing restrictions and what the paladin code actually means. Even for prestige classes, roleplaying restriction to balance out the power are ill advised. Any which class is better debate is really a matter of one's personal preference. I'd never play a bard; others cheer them on the rooftops. Clerics are fine. Wizards are fine.
Spikes01k 09-12-07, 07:45 PM	In that case you should keep them very true to their alignment - about the same, if not more so, than a Paladin. They are allowed to be one off from their deity, so why wouldn't they be allowed the same with the no deity method?
HamHam 09-12-07, 07:53 PM	But in all seriousness if the game is worked correctly the cleric is dependent on DM fiat, much more so than perhaps most actually play at. A cleric requests his spells; this means a DM has an absolute right to refuse to grant certain spells and/or replace them with different spells (this can work to a player's advantage since ostensibly his god is looking out for him, so if a cleric is in a place teeming with undead and the cleric forgets the undeath to death spell the deity can have his back and make sure he picks it up). That is not RAW.
tombowings 09-12-07, 07:55 PM	They are allowed to be one off from their deity, so why wouldn't they be allowed the same with the no deity method? If the deity worships an alignment, it makes NO sense at all if they differ from that alignment.
Crimson_Concerto 09-12-07, 08:06 PM	See, this is not only grossly insufficient-- it's not always true.I didn't say it was the correct answer*. I said it was the simple answer, and I do believe it was what was intended to balance the two classes when they were being designed. ;) *Though, I'm not saying it's the incorrect answer. I believe it to be correct, but I don't feel I'm completely qualified to make such a claim and assert it as absolute truth, let alone try to credibly justify it, without some good research first.
Kazuhiro 09-12-07, 11:06 PM	I agree- that's obviously exactly the way they tried to balance Clerics. It didn't work! Now, I'm no expert either, and I wouldn't dare argue with someone more knowledgable-- but at a glance, "A better spell list" is no way to excuse how powerful the Cleric is, especially compared to the Wizard. I grant you, there's no Cleric spell to equal a Fireball, but a Cleric with a good enough build can fight alongside the Fighter, then heal and throw around Bull's Strength afterward (or before, or during.) I've never done the numbers on this (is that even possible?) but it just feels wrong. Especially since my party's Cleric can use two turn attempts to drain 1d6 HP from a 30-foot cone. Yes, drain-- meaning he heals that much damage.
ManTimeForgot 09-13-07, 02:39 AM	That is not RAW. The way I read it, the sections on divine spells say nothing about a cleric getting his spells granted 100% of the time. It merely says he "prepares spells through meditation and prayer." Now maybe I'm reading into this, but last time I checked prayers had to get answered. And the DM has absolute control over all deities and divine agents. So yes, the rules do support the DM having absolute authority over whether or not a cleric gets spells per day. As a matter of roleplaying the DM should cut players slack by allowing the deity to trust player decisions, but ultimately the decision rests with the DM. You are right to point out that a DM does not explicitly have the right to substitute spells, but that's quite frankly persnickety. If the DM has the right to refuse spells, then it should also hold that the DM has the right to grant spells of his choosing, since afterall the DM has total control over god-figures. Just because a cleric prepares spells like a wizard, does not follow that all aspects of wizard preparation hold true. Like a wizard, except there is no spellbook to act as quality assurance. Quite simply if the deity doesn't like you (alignment clash?), then you don't get spells. You can sit there and pray all you want, but you won't get spells. Note that clerics whose alignments become two steps removed from their deities can no longer be clerics of that particular deity. Maybe if you go by some ultra-literal interpretation of the rules you can net a clerical casting system where everything is player-centric, but that is in all honesty and obtuse viewpoint. Just what precisely do you think deities do in D&D? Just sit around up there on their butts casting level 15 spells, scrying on people 15 miles away, and predicting the next event in their portfolio 10 minutes in advance? Either the cleric is beholden unto deities or he isn't. You can't have it both ways. MTF