Class Balancing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Balancing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
benstundze
12-12-06, 05:02 PM What is class balance, and how do you know if your class is balanced?
ben
Chie
12-12-06, 05:13 PM Class Balance is a determination of whether or not one class excels another because of the abilities that it gets.If a new character using one class can kick the ass of every other character,or makes an existing class useless because it gets better abilities and there is no reason not to take it,then that class is unbalanced.
As to the second question there is no one measure,a lot of people have different views,but there are some fairly common views.Most people agree that fighters and sorcerers are under-powered compared to a lot of others,while clerics and druids can slaughter almost everything they come across if they really want to.It's hard to really decide on,that's why we talk about it so much on the boards.
teshen
12-12-06, 09:36 PM Yes. Chie has put it well enough.

To me, balance means a level 4 is a level 4. It means that a character of a level, regardless of the class or class combinations he possesses should be able to defeat something of a challenge rating equal to or less than his level.

Of course, this is rarely really the case. A Ftr 4/ Wiz 4 isn't usually as strong as a Ftr 8 or a Wiz 8, nor is it on par with say most Ftr 1/Wiz 4/PrC 3 builds. And some feats and spells work better than other feats and spells.

Balance is also impacted by setting and circumstance. I'm currently playing a social rogue in an Eberron game. I didn't know we were going into the Mournlands before hand... he's about as effective as a fart in a whirlwind at this point. He has great skills which are useless on undead, like bluff. He has good damage with sneak attack... also usless... and as a changeling rogue, he can't even find traps. :mad:

Balance is an idea... like utopia.
benstundze
12-12-06, 09:57 PM Is there any set rules to class balancing?
ben
Tempest Stormwind
12-12-06, 10:04 PM Is there any set rules to class balancing?
ben

No. Just guidelines.

As a general thought, if something is so strong / at such a low cost that you'd have to be a moron to NOT take it, or so weak / at such a great cost that only a moron WOULD take it, it's imbalanced.

If choices (even simply "do I take that or do I ignore it?") aren't clear-cut, if you have to THINK before making such decisions, I'd say you're close.

Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there.

(Note that this is DIFFERENT from the Overpowered/Underpowered debates, since those look STRICTLY at power level, and set an arbitrary benchmark to compare to. To me, balance is independent from power level -- you can have a perfectly balanced game of superheroes, or an unbalanced farmer-fest. For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage. Meanwhile, there's no clear "best" or "worst" maneuvers of any given level in most of the Nine Swords disciplines, meaning that no matter what you think of their power level, those maneuvers are balanced with respect to each other.)

The general rule with balance is that no single element should be clearly better than other elements of its type -- in other words, no PC should be clearly better than another PC, no spell of a given level / school should be clearly better than similar spells, and so on and so forth.
Lotus Crane
12-12-06, 10:45 PM For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage.
Of course, the situation is even more complex than that. While it's true that practically any specialist wizard is going to want to take Master Specialist, before the existence of Master Specialist, many would argue that no wizard would want to be a Master Specialist in the first place; specialist benefits generally don't outweigh the loss of two spell schools. Therefore, you can't just compare Master Specialist to a straight specialist wizard; you need compare a specialist wizard/Master Specialist against a generalist wizard (possibly with comparable levels in some other arcane PrC).
Votan
12-12-06, 11:22 PM Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there.

I like this quote alot everytime that I see it.

(Note that this is DIFFERENT from the Overpowered/Underpowered debates, since those look STRICTLY at power level, and set an arbitrary benchmark to compare to. To me, balance is independent from power level -- you can have a perfectly balanced game of superheroes, or an unbalanced farmer-fest. For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage. Meanwhile, there's no clear "best" or "worst" maneuvers of any given level in most of the Nine Swords disciplines, meaning that no matter what you think of their power level, those maneuvers are balanced with respect to each other.)

If you make this distinction then I'd tend to be okay with some things that are unbalanced if they were not also overpowered. I don't consider the idea that a particular class is the best option for a specific subtype of character to be necessarily a bad thing.
Belgian Waffle
12-12-06, 11:44 PM No. Just guidelines.

As a general thought, if something is so strong / at such a low cost that you'd have to be a moron to NOT take it, or so weak / at such a great cost that only a moron WOULD take it, it's imbalanced.

If choices (even simply "do I take that or do I ignore it?") aren't clear-cut, if you have to THINK before making such decisions, I'd say you're close.

Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there.
I like this.

It is like... Natural Spell? Or Toughness? Which should I pick? :confused:
When someone can say something like that, we will be good.

+rep, dude. +rep.
benstundze
12-13-06, 12:29 PM how can a class be overpowerd but a PrC that gets it in 5 lvls be just right?
Tempest Stormwind
12-13-06, 12:34 PM how can a class be overpowerd but a PrC that gets it in 5 lvls be just right?

Your question:
1) Says nothing.
2) Is off topic (power level is independent from balance)
3) See 1.
benstundze
12-13-06, 11:10 PM Your question:
1) Says nothing.
2) Is off topic (power level is independent from balance)
3) See 1.
ok let me rephrase it: you know when those people say it's overpowered for a base class but isn’t in 5 levels here’s a quote:

I likr the Idea, but I think it's better suited for a prestige class. If you can shrink it to a 10/15 level class. It would work much better. As a base class, it just seems overpowered. But it's a great idea in concept, and could lead to great RP!

how is that possible?
ben
Seerow
12-13-06, 11:29 PM To be perfectly honest, class balancing isn't all that hard....

Take the Fighter for example. Make him a Dwarf, give him Skill Focus: Balance and whatever that feat is that gives a class skill, and 18 dex.

+15 balance checks. That's a pretty balanced class TBQH.
Lotus Crane
12-13-06, 11:35 PM ok let me rephrase it: you know when those people say it's overpowered for a base class but isn’t in 5 levels
Well, prestige classes usually (and should) have difficult prerequisites, including one or two "throwaway" feats that otherwise aren't useful to the character; thus a little extra power per level is considered a fair trade.
Belgian Waffle
12-13-06, 11:36 PM Base classes and Prestige classes work off of different rules.
The most obvious is that base classes don't require anything (except maybe having or not having a certain alignment) while Prestige classes can be stacked with ridiculous prerequisites that could take you forever to achieve without some ridiculous multiclassing.

My most current example of ridiculous prerequisites is Master of Nine. It takes five feats to get to with massive skill requirements. And one of the feats makes no sense at all as to why it's a requirement other than one sentence tacked onto the end of the class description that says, "You prefer the personal nature of hand-to-hand combat."
I don't know why they felt the need to throw that in there, but it really ****** me off.

... Anyhow, tangent over... Prestige Classes have prereqs which may force you into some suboptimal choices in building your character for you to take the class...
In theory.
In practice... it works for some classes and some not so much.

-e-
Argh, nano'd so bad

Also, Seerow, I will find where you live and take out your eyeballs with a spoon and eat them with Neapolitan Ice cream while watching sponge bob. Oh, Spongebob... you have such zany adventures underneath the sea. :D
Seerow
12-13-06, 11:45 PM Why are my eyeballs being eaten now? @_@
Edea
12-14-06, 12:29 AM To be perfectly honest, class balancing isn't all that hard....

Take the Fighter for example. Make him a Dwarf, give him Skill Focus: Balance and whatever that feat is that gives a class skill, and 18 dex.

+15 balance checks. That's a pretty balanced class TBQH.

Or you could make a Dwarf...Monk (*cringes in agony*)
Seerow
12-14-06, 12:59 AM But being a Dwarf Monk doesn't show the balance of the Fighter, does it?
Archangel62
12-14-06, 01:06 AM I beleive that balance is more about other classes being able to shine. Balance is tricky because you need some standards of comparison, but I believe that balance really comes purely down to making sure that each person can contribute without direct DM intervention.
Marcotic
12-14-06, 03:59 AM well, the thing about the fighter is that you can, (and maybe it was designed around the idea of) using your normal feats to fill in the gaps of your skills, but hey, this is from the guy who thinks humans came from orcs and elves.
Belgian Waffle
12-14-06, 07:55 AM Why are my eyeballs being eaten now? @_@
With Neapolitan ice cream. Because you made a horrible joke and you deserve worse. :mad:
Seerow
12-14-06, 12:19 PM I didn't think the joke was all that terrible. =(
Tempest Stormwind
12-14-06, 12:23 PM I beleive that balance is more about other classes being able to shine. Balance is tricky because you need some standards of comparison, but I believe that balance really comes purely down to making sure that each person can contribute without direct DM intervention.

Incorrect. Balance needs no standards of comparison, just something to compare with.

As I stress above, balance is independent from power level. You need two points to compare in balance discussions. You need two points, one of which is defined as "the proper power level" in power level discussion.

You could throw six ton weights on a tipscale and it'd balance just as easily as if you put a quarter on each side (provided the scale was tough enough).
RadicalTaoist
12-14-06, 01:52 PM What I think Tempest means by power level is balance relative to monsters and encounters of equivalent CR - the challenges that PCs are expected to face.
Tony Vargas
12-14-06, 02:01 PM Ultimately, the test of balance among classes is in how often a given class gets played - it's not just the mechanics of the class, but also it's apeal to players. If all classes were perfectly balanced, you'd see them played in nearly-equal proportions (there also needs to be a balance of the 4 basic roles in a party, so, if just evaluating core classes, for instance, you'd see more Rogues - near 1 in 4 characters - since nothing else really substitutes for them adequately, and fewer, say, barbarians, since there's three or four classes that adequately fill the frontliner role).

If a class is truely imbalanced, it will see a lot less play: either due to power - because it's so worthless that no one bothers with it or dies right away if they do try it), or because it's such obvious munchkin bait that most players have too much self-respect to abuse it - or complete lack of apeal (too silly or too narrowly defined or heavily RP-restricted to fit any desireable character concept).
benstundze
12-15-06, 11:12 PM Ok thanks all, and finally:
What are the guidelines for class balance?
ben
Tempest Stormwind
12-15-06, 11:28 PM Ok thanks all, and finally:
What are the guidelines for class balance?
ben

Nothing hard and fast. We've said it already. Don't be too strong or to weak for the cost involved to gain the ability/level/whatever. Don't outclass others at their own game, nor should you be so bad in *your* own domain that you're outclassed.

Look at the choices involved at that point. If you have to ponder, or choose strictly based on "coolness factor", you've got a balanced situation.

As I said above, "Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
benstundze 12-12-06, 05:02 PM	What is class balance, and how do you know if your class is balanced? ben
Chie 12-12-06, 05:13 PM	Class Balance is a determination of whether or not one class excels another because of the abilities that it gets.If a new character using one class can kick the ass of every other character,or makes an existing class useless because it gets better abilities and there is no reason not to take it,then that class is unbalanced. As to the second question there is no one measure,a lot of people have different views,but there are some fairly common views.Most people agree that fighters and sorcerers are under-powered compared to a lot of others,while clerics and druids can slaughter almost everything they come across if they really want to.It's hard to really decide on,that's why we talk about it so much on the boards.
teshen 12-12-06, 09:36 PM	Yes. Chie has put it well enough. To me, balance means a level 4 is a level 4. It means that a character of a level, regardless of the class or class combinations he possesses should be able to defeat something of a challenge rating equal to or less than his level. Of course, this is rarely really the case. A Ftr 4/ Wiz 4 isn't usually as strong as a Ftr 8 or a Wiz 8, nor is it on par with say most Ftr 1/Wiz 4/PrC 3 builds. And some feats and spells work better than other feats and spells. Balance is also impacted by setting and circumstance. I'm currently playing a social rogue in an Eberron game. I didn't know we were going into the Mournlands before hand... he's about as effective as a fart in a whirlwind at this point. He has great skills which are useless on undead, like bluff. He has good damage with sneak attack... also usless... and as a changeling rogue, he can't even find traps. :mad: Balance is an idea... like utopia.
benstundze 12-12-06, 09:57 PM	Is there any set rules to class balancing? ben
Tempest Stormwind 12-12-06, 10:04 PM	Is there any set rules to class balancing? ben No. Just guidelines. As a general thought, if something is so strong / at such a low cost that you'd have to be a moron to NOT take it, or so weak / at such a great cost that only a moron WOULD take it, it's imbalanced. If choices (even simply "do I take that or do I ignore it?") aren't clear-cut, if you have to THINK before making such decisions, I'd say you're close. Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there. (Note that this is DIFFERENT from the Overpowered/Underpowered debates, since those look STRICTLY at power level, and set an arbitrary benchmark to compare to. To me, balance is independent from power level -- you can have a perfectly balanced game of superheroes, or an unbalanced farmer-fest. For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage. Meanwhile, there's no clear "best" or "worst" maneuvers of any given level in most of the Nine Swords disciplines, meaning that no matter what you think of their power level, those maneuvers are balanced with respect to each other.) The general rule with balance is that no single element should be clearly better than other elements of its type -- in other words, no PC should be clearly better than another PC, no spell of a given level / school should be clearly better than similar spells, and so on and so forth.
Lotus Crane 12-12-06, 10:45 PM	For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage. Of course, the situation is even more complex than that. While it's true that practically any specialist wizard is going to want to take Master Specialist, before the existence of Master Specialist, many would argue that no wizard would want to be a Master Specialist in the first place; specialist benefits generally don't outweigh the loss of two spell schools. Therefore, you can't just compare Master Specialist to a straight specialist wizard; you need compare a specialist wizard/Master Specialist against a generalist wizard (possibly with comparable levels in some other arcane PrC).
Votan 12-12-06, 11:22 PM	Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there. I like this quote alot everytime that I see it. (Note that this is DIFFERENT from the Overpowered/Underpowered debates, since those look STRICTLY at power level, and set an arbitrary benchmark to compare to. To me, balance is independent from power level -- you can have a perfectly balanced game of superheroes, or an unbalanced farmer-fest. For instance, while I don't consider the Master Specialist an overpowered prestige class, I do consider it unbalanced, since there's no reason to NOT take it as a specialist mage. Meanwhile, there's no clear "best" or "worst" maneuvers of any given level in most of the Nine Swords disciplines, meaning that no matter what you think of their power level, those maneuvers are balanced with respect to each other.) If you make this distinction then I'd tend to be okay with some things that are unbalanced if they were not also overpowered. I don't consider the idea that a particular class is the best option for a specific subtype of character to be necessarily a bad thing.
Belgian Waffle 12-12-06, 11:44 PM	No. Just guidelines. As a general thought, if something is so strong / at such a low cost that you'd have to be a moron to NOT take it, or so weak / at such a great cost that only a moron WOULD take it, it's imbalanced. If choices (even simply "do I take that or do I ignore it?") aren't clear-cut, if you have to THINK before making such decisions, I'd say you're close. Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there. I like this. It is like... Natural Spell? Or Toughness? Which should I pick? :confused: When someone can say something like that, we will be good. +rep, dude. +rep.
benstundze 12-13-06, 12:29 PM	how can a class be overpowerd but a PrC that gets it in 5 lvls be just right?
Tempest Stormwind 12-13-06, 12:34 PM	how can a class be overpowerd but a PrC that gets it in 5 lvls be just right? Your question: 1) Says nothing. 2) Is off topic (power level is independent from balance) 3) See 1.
benstundze 12-13-06, 11:10 PM	Your question: 1) Says nothing. 2) Is off topic (power level is independent from balance) 3) See 1. ok let me rephrase it: you know when those people say it's overpowered for a base class but isn’t in 5 levels here’s a quote: I likr the Idea, but I think it's better suited for a prestige class. If you can shrink it to a 10/15 level class. It would work much better. As a base class, it just seems overpowered. But it's a great idea in concept, and could lead to great RP! how is that possible? ben
Seerow 12-13-06, 11:29 PM	To be perfectly honest, class balancing isn't all that hard.... Take the Fighter for example. Make him a Dwarf, give him Skill Focus: Balance and whatever that feat is that gives a class skill, and 18 dex. +15 balance checks. That's a pretty balanced class TBQH.
Lotus Crane 12-13-06, 11:35 PM	ok let me rephrase it: you know when those people say it's overpowered for a base class but isn’t in 5 levels Well, prestige classes usually (and should) have difficult prerequisites, including one or two "throwaway" feats that otherwise aren't useful to the character; thus a little extra power per level is considered a fair trade.
Belgian Waffle 12-13-06, 11:36 PM	Base classes and Prestige classes work off of different rules. The most obvious is that base classes don't require anything (except maybe having or not having a certain alignment) while Prestige classes can be stacked with ridiculous prerequisites that could take you forever to achieve without some ridiculous multiclassing. My most current example of ridiculous prerequisites is Master of Nine. It takes five feats to get to with massive skill requirements. And one of the feats makes no sense at all as to why it's a requirement other than one sentence tacked onto the end of the class description that says, "You prefer the personal nature of hand-to-hand combat." I don't know why they felt the need to throw that in there, but it really ****** me off. ... Anyhow, tangent over... Prestige Classes have prereqs which may force you into some suboptimal choices in building your character for you to take the class... In theory. In practice... it works for some classes and some not so much. -e- Argh, nano'd so bad Also, Seerow, I will find where you live and take out your eyeballs with a spoon and eat them with Neapolitan Ice cream while watching sponge bob. Oh, Spongebob... you have such zany adventures underneath the sea. :D
Seerow 12-13-06, 11:45 PM	Why are my eyeballs being eaten now? @_@
Edea 12-14-06, 12:29 AM	To be perfectly honest, class balancing isn't all that hard.... Take the Fighter for example. Make him a Dwarf, give him Skill Focus: Balance and whatever that feat is that gives a class skill, and 18 dex. +15 balance checks. That's a pretty balanced class TBQH. Or you could make a Dwarf...Monk (cringes in agony)
Seerow 12-14-06, 12:59 AM	But being a Dwarf Monk doesn't show the balance of the Fighter, does it?
Archangel62 12-14-06, 01:06 AM	I beleive that balance is more about other classes being able to shine. Balance is tricky because you need some standards of comparison, but I believe that balance really comes purely down to making sure that each person can contribute without direct DM intervention.
Marcotic 12-14-06, 03:59 AM	well, the thing about the fighter is that you can, (and maybe it was designed around the idea of) using your normal feats to fill in the gaps of your skills, but hey, this is from the guy who thinks humans came from orcs and elves.
Belgian Waffle 12-14-06, 07:55 AM	Why are my eyeballs being eaten now? @_@ With Neapolitan ice cream. Because you made a horrible joke and you deserve worse. :mad:
Seerow 12-14-06, 12:19 PM	I didn't think the joke was all that terrible. =(
Tempest Stormwind 12-14-06, 12:23 PM	I beleive that balance is more about other classes being able to shine. Balance is tricky because you need some standards of comparison, but I believe that balance really comes purely down to making sure that each person can contribute without direct DM intervention. Incorrect. Balance needs no standards of comparison, just something to compare with. As I stress above, balance is independent from power level. You need two points to compare in balance discussions. You need two points, one of which is defined as "the proper power level" in power level discussion. You could throw six ton weights on a tipscale and it'd balance just as easily as if you put a quarter on each side (provided the scale was tough enough).
RadicalTaoist 12-14-06, 01:52 PM	What I think Tempest means by power level is balance relative to monsters and encounters of equivalent CR - the challenges that PCs are expected to face.
Tony Vargas 12-14-06, 02:01 PM	Ultimately, the test of balance among classes is in how often a given class gets played - it's not just the mechanics of the class, but also it's apeal to players. If all classes were perfectly balanced, you'd see them played in nearly-equal proportions (there also needs to be a balance of the 4 basic roles in a party, so, if just evaluating core classes, for instance, you'd see more Rogues - near 1 in 4 characters - since nothing else really substitutes for them adequately, and fewer, say, barbarians, since there's three or four classes that adequately fill the frontliner role). If a class is truely imbalanced, it will see a lot less play: either due to power - because it's so worthless that no one bothers with it or dies right away if they do try it), or because it's such obvious munchkin bait that most players have too much self-respect to abuse it - or complete lack of apeal (too silly or too narrowly defined or heavily RP-restricted to fit any desireable character concept).
benstundze 12-15-06, 11:12 PM	Ok thanks all, and finally: What are the guidelines for class balance? ben
Tempest Stormwind 12-15-06, 11:28 PM	Ok thanks all, and finally: What are the guidelines for class balance? ben Nothing hard and fast. We've said it already. Don't be too strong or to weak for the cost involved to gain the ability/level/whatever. Don't outclass others at their own game, nor should you be so bad in your own domain that you're outclassed. Look at the choices involved at that point. If you have to ponder, or choose strictly based on "coolness factor", you've got a balanced situation. As I said above, "Taste the indecision? That's balance, right there."