Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DungeonlessMaster 02-05-04, 02:24 PM	After reading a very large number of posts in which people compare all sorts of classes to each other I would like to say that these arguments are far from reality. Consider that d&d is a terrible system for a "duel" between characters. Although the abstraction is fun for say 4-6 characters taking on a dozen drow, me vs. you with PC's is a fundamentally flawed way of comparing characters. because : A) It does not take into account the DM. Unless you and your buddy are just going to start rolling dice against each other then this OUTSIDE factor is going to be much more important then you give him credit for. If you do decide to just start rolling dice you will meet the same problems as these web boards. Without the moderator/referee it is just two players throughing dice and shouting at each other. B) d&d does not measure challenge that way. A creature with a cr equal to the parties level should be a challenge that takes up about 20% of a party of four PCs daily resources. This means that in d&d abilities are designed to be complimentary. If characters where designed to face off in duels then a party of four would expend 25% of its daily rescources. C) Arms and Equipment, but more than that friends make all the differance in d&d. If a 20th level wizard where to challenge a 20th level fighter then both would probably bring seconds, or more likely the party they adventure with a la the 3 musketeers! Then how the tables are turned. Yet, equipment is a fundamental part of d&d. Case Example: 20th level wizard vs 20th level fighter. All to often all you hear is that if the distance is short and the fighter goes first he wins. But what about squenced spells and auto-teleports? So the wizard should win right? Well remember that the value of all the wizards spells beyond the ones he learns by going up levels come out of his equipment. The fighter can affort a +5 cloak of resistance, a +6 strength Enhancer a +5 shield + 5 armor and a +10 sword. If he knows or adventured with a wizard he likely has a +5 inherent bonus to strength as well. Oh yea, he can also afford to buy a hippogriff and have it trained according to the rules in the dmg. So when the wizard flys away so does the smart fighter. On the other hand spells are very powerfull. A wizard can get to about a 30 reasonably for his high level spell dcs and can afford staves, wands, and all other stuff out the wazoo. It would be a situation where whichever PLAYER new the most about killing characters of the other type would win. So I think it is flawed to argue over individual character power. Instead I would argue that the best that can be done is to argue what is the best GROUP OF 4 PC's a party could take. Anything attempt to further break this down is like arguing about weather protons or electrons are better. So my Uber party would be 1) Paladin 2) Cleric 3) Wizard 4) Rouge/Ranger Why: spontaneous casting, trapfinding, and arcane magic are all to important to give up. Magic is actually best when used to aid more classical forms of combat. A +1 BAB character and .75 BAB characgter can block most hallways: The wizard then lobs fireballs so that the Fireball (or similar effect) hits all those right up to the coridor blockers. Rouge/Ranger has a lot of combat power, especially with 2 weapon fighting wielding 2 short swords. Tumbles around and flanks with either Paladin or Cleric and gets a lot of backstabs. Paladin is just my favorite of the +1 bab characters. He also can act as a diplomat removing the need for the rouge to do that also. These characters can kill any challenge thrown at them that is not way to tough. As an aside I think the only other way to determine which class is best is how many adult male red dragons the class could take on by itself at any level. In this case the paladin would seem to have a slight advantage because he could CHOOSE if he wanted to run away or not becuase he wouldn't be terrified just by the sight of it. Please resopond to all the differnt parts of this post!
BlaineTog 02-05-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by DungeonlessMaster After reading a very large number of posts in which people compare all sorts of classes to each other I would like to say that these arguments are far from reality. Consider that d&d is a terrible system for a "duel" between characters. Although the abstraction is fun for say 4-6 characters taking on a dozen drow, me vs. you with PC's is a fundamentally flawed way of comparing characters. Now, I'll try to to patronize you here, but if I do, it is purely an accident. Yes yes yes, we know this. Wiz 20 vs. Fighter 20, mano eh mano, is totally unrealistic and should never happen in-game and is a bad way to measure class power... but not. It is a good way of measuring the class' combat power since you will very rarely come up agaisnt an opponent as difficult as a PC. If a fighter will always lose to a well-preped wizard w/o becoming a proxy wizard himself, then the fighter class (at higher levels) is underpowered and compensation must be made. When we pit a PC fighter vs a PC wizard, we are doing something known as "willing suspension of disbelife." Basically, we say "we know this is false, but let's do it anyway." It's the same thing you do when you sit down at the table and the DM says "The Dragon looks up." This would obviously never happen, but we are suspending our disbeleife for a few hours to have fun. A) It does not take into account the DM. Unless you and your buddy are just going to start rolling dice against each other then this OUTSIDE factor is going to be much more important then you give him credit for. If you do decide to just start rolling dice you will meet the same problems as these web boards. Without the moderator/referee it is just two players throughing dice and shouting at each other.If both players are following to rules to a tee, then no referre is necessary. In a place where everyone follows the rules and there is no realy plot, the DM is unnecessary. It [i]does[/i[] give a lopsided view of the classes (some only really shine in social situations), but that's fine. All we really care about in combat is, well, combat power. B) d&d does not measure challenge that way. A creature with a cr equal to the parties level should be a challenge that takes up about 20% of a party of four PCs daily resources. This means that in d&d abilities are designed to be complimentary. If characters where designed to face off in duels then a party of four would expend 25% of its daily rescources.Again, we know this. We arn't *stupid.* Realistically, none of this would ever happen, and yet it is still a good way of measuring how good a single combatant the class is. C) Arms and Equipment, but more than that friends make all the differance in d&d. If a 20th level wizard where to challenge a 20th level fighter then both would probably bring seconds, or more likely the party they adventure with a la the 3 musketeers! Then how the tables are turned. Yet, equipment is a fundamental part of d&d.A) You start by talking about equipment, but then start ranting about gettinf friends to help you. ? B) No, because that would not be an accurate test of Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 20 or whatever. Stuff like that is generally specifically disallowed. A wizard 20 with his 200 followers and Cleric 18 cohort will *trump* the Fighter 20 who's all by his lonesome. That would test the Leadership feat (and not even very well, since it would really be a test of a Wizard + Leadership. You have to eliminate all but one of the variables for an accurate experiment!). Case Example: 20th level wizard vs 20th level fighter. All to often all you hear is that if the distance is short and the fighter goes first he wins. But what about squenced spells and auto-teleports? So the wizard should win right? Well remember that the value of all the wizards spells beyond the ones he learns by going up levels come out of his equipment. The fighter can affort a +5 cloak of resistance, a +6 strength Enhancer a +5 shield + 5 armor and a +10 sword. If he knows or adventured with a wizard he likely has a +5 inherent bonus to strength as well. Oh yea, he can also afford to buy a hippogriff and have it trained according to the rules in the dmg. So when the wizard flys away so does the smart fighter. On the other hand spells are very powerfull. A wizard can get to about a 30 reasonably for his high level spell dcs and can afford staves, wands, and all other stuff out the wazoo. It would be a situation where whichever PLAYER new the most about killing characters of the other type would win.Um.. yeah, doy. :rolleyes: If your oppoennt knows how to kill you better than you know how to kill him, then you will *rpobably* lose. But A) a properly prepared wizard (perhaps with that teleport thingey you suggested) will be ver, very, very hard to kill, and the usualy "hit it with my sword" shtick won't necessarily (ie "won't") work. B) In this case, the wizard will probably know more about the fighter than the fighterwill now of the wizard, 'cuz of Divinations. So I think it is flawed to argue over individual character power. Instead I would argue that the best that can be done is to argue what is the best GROUP OF 4 PC's a party could take.:rolleyes: Do this and you introduce numerous varaibles. You can't perform an experiement when you are testing multiple variables at the exact same time. You learn nothing. In any case, each class definatelly has a different power level, and some are significatly more powerful than others (ie wiz is more powerful than fighter). Anything attempt to further break this down is like arguing about weather protons or electrons are better.Intesting anology. it doesn't have any bearing on our PvP fights. Granted, party members were not meant to duel, but we acept this and move on to the fightin'. As an aside I think the only other way to determine which class is best is how many adult male red dragons the class could take on by itself at any level. In this case the paladin would seem to have a slight advantage because he could CHOOSE if he wanted to run away or not becuase he wouldn't be terrified just by the sight of it.Riiiiight. The Cleric, Sorcerer, Monk, Wizard, Druid, and Bard would also probably make their saves and be just peachey (chanes are the ranger wouldn't do too badly either). And all the wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric has to do is case a spell subbed withh the diametrically opposed element of the dragon adn said dragon drops pretty quickly. 'Specially with stuff like Timestop.