Class features, Metamagic, and familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class features, Metamagic, and familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nephelim
07-10-05, 01:05 AM When a Master Transmogrifist uses Polymorph, they can also effect thier familiar, right? Lets assume that the MT is of sufficient level to have at least Manifest Senses.

1) the free Extend Spell metamagic that is a class-feature of the MT would certainly effect the Familiar as well, as it is the SPELL that is being effected.

2) The Manifest Senses and Manifest Qualities class features, it could be argued, also are a kind of Metamagic. The same could also be said of the Combat Mastery class feature.

3) Question: Does a familiar, effected (by virtue of the Share Spells familiar ability) by a Spell which is itself effected by a class feature (in this case, Manifest Senses), gain the advantages of those Class Features? They are not strictly metamagic, but they are certainly effecting the spell which is itself effecting the familar...

Opinions?

A related question (sort of) - has any discussion been made about whether or not a Warforged can polymorph into a Golem or other construct? I haven't done a whole lot of digging yet on that one, so if anyone has a link regarding that, I'd appreciate it.
Torack
07-10-05, 02:08 AM Polymorph is very strict in its capabilities. As such Golems are out of the question no matter what you're standard race might be.

As for the other abilities, I doubt it. The Share Spells ability allows you to share spells, not feats or class abilities.

They are called Metamagic FEATS for a reason.

Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
Vestigial_Thumb
07-10-05, 07:51 AM They are called Metamagic FEATS for a reason.

Yeah, but the FEATS directly affect the spells, hence the META- addition to the word. Since they effectively change the spell, it affects the familiar. Most of the transmogrifist's class features also directly affect the transmutation spells he casts, they should also affect his familiar. As a house rule, don't let the player polymorph his familiar into a dragon. The familiar should at best be able to polymorph into something with half its master's HD and at least two size categories smaller (maybe even three).
Darkness_of_Undeath
07-10-05, 10:15 PM Technically, the MT is a spellcasting based PrC, right? This stands to reason that his Class Features would also be magically based, right? Therefor, the MT's class features are either designed to mimic spells, or are specifically crafted spells usable only by the MT, due to training, expertise, ect. So really, it is a spell, and any spell with a personal range effects the familiar so long as the caster and the familiar maintain contact during the casting. Though they are a form of metamagic, to some extent, only in the context that they are spells manipulated through mastery of the spell or spellcasting proficiency to the level that would allow it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nephelim 07-10-05, 01:05 AM	When a Master Transmogrifist uses Polymorph, they can also effect thier familiar, right? Lets assume that the MT is of sufficient level to have at least Manifest Senses. 1) the free Extend Spell metamagic that is a class-feature of the MT would certainly effect the Familiar as well, as it is the SPELL that is being effected. 2) The Manifest Senses and Manifest Qualities class features, it could be argued, also are a kind of Metamagic. The same could also be said of the Combat Mastery class feature. 3) Question: Does a familiar, effected (by virtue of the Share Spells familiar ability) by a Spell which is itself effected by a class feature (in this case, Manifest Senses), gain the advantages of those Class Features? They are not strictly metamagic, but they are certainly effecting the spell which is itself effecting the familar... Opinions? A related question (sort of) - has any discussion been made about whether or not a Warforged can polymorph into a Golem or other construct? I haven't done a whole lot of digging yet on that one, so if anyone has a link regarding that, I'd appreciate it.
Torack 07-10-05, 02:08 AM	Polymorph is very strict in its capabilities. As such Golems are out of the question no matter what you're standard race might be. As for the other abilities, I doubt it. The Share Spells ability allows you to share spells, not feats or class abilities. They are called Metamagic FEATS for a reason. Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
Vestigial_Thumb 07-10-05, 07:51 AM	They are called Metamagic FEATS for a reason. Yeah, but the FEATS directly affect the spells, hence the META- addition to the word. Since they effectively change the spell, it affects the familiar. Most of the transmogrifist's class features also directly affect the transmutation spells he casts, they should also affect his familiar. As a house rule, don't let the player polymorph his familiar into a dragon. The familiar should at best be able to polymorph into something with half its master's HD and at least two size categories smaller (maybe even three).
Darkness_of_Undeath 07-10-05, 10:15 PM	Technically, the MT is a spellcasting based PrC, right? This stands to reason that his Class Features would also be magically based, right? Therefor, the MT's class features are either designed to mimic spells, or are specifically crafted spells usable only by the MT, due to training, expertise, ect. So really, it is a spell, and any spell with a personal range effects the familiar so long as the caster and the familiar maintain contact during the casting. Though they are a form of metamagic, to some extent, only in the context that they are spells manipulated through mastery of the spell or spellcasting proficiency to the level that would allow it.