Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jradd777 03-08-08, 03:47 AM	This class remake is still under construction, but mostly done... Go ahead and PEACH I was interested in the original version of the Gladiator, at first, but then realized that many of their class abilities were the same things over and over again and way too many were just feats. I decided to try to give them more and more useful abilities and hopefully make the experience of playing one enjoyable for the player. PEACH, I hope to enter this into the cookie contest as a remake. Gladiator http://images.epilogue.net/users/abi/Victory-copy.jpg image by Abrar Jamal, from http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=69803 "Hear the crowd...outside the arena, I am only a man... but within those bloodstained walls... I am... a legacy!" -- Kravius, a human Gladiator after single-handedly defeating a Greathorn Minotaur. General description... Making a Gladiator Abilities: . Races: . Alignment: Any. Gladiators run the gamut of personalities and principles. Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (150 gp) Starting Age: As fighter. Hit Dice: d12 This was the original table for the Gladiator: Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Mercy, Exotic Weapon Proficiency 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Unarmed Strike, Arena Guile +1 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Improved Feint 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Uncanny Dodge, Arena Guile +2 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Armor Optimization, Exotic Weapon 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 No Mercy, Arena Guile +3 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Insightful Feint +2 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Arena Guile +4 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Exotic Weapon 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Armor Optimization, Arena Guile +5 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Insightful Feint +4 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Arena Guile +6 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Exotic Weapon 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Parry, Arena Guile +7 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor Optimization, Superior Feint 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Arena Guile +8 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Exotic Weapon 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Arena Guile +9 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Improved Parry 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Armor Optimization, Arena Guile +10 To find the Original version (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://athas.org/products/ds3) in Dark Sun. This is my version: Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special Maneuvers: Known Readied Stances 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Mercy, Exotic Weapon,“Are You Not Entertained?” +2 3 2 (1) 1 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Unarmed Strike, Arena Guile +1 4 2 (1) 1 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Uncanny Dodge 5 2 (1) 1 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 “Are You Not Entertained?” +3 5 3 (1) 2 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Armor Optimization, Improved Feint 6 2 (2) 2 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Arena Guile +2 6 2 (2) 2 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 No Mercy, “Are You Not Entertained?” +4 7 2 (2) 2 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 7 2 (2) 2 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Insightful Feint +2 8 2 (2) 2 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Arena Guile +3, “Are You Not Entertained?” +5 8 3 (2) 3 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 9 3 (2) 3 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Improved Armor Optimization 9 3 (2) 3 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Insightful Feint +4, “Are You Not Entertained?” +6 10 3 (2) 3 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Parry, Arena Guile +4 10 3 (2) 3 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 11 3 (3) 3 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 “Are You Not Entertained?” +7 11 3 (3) 4 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Superior Feint 12 3 (3) 4 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Arena Guile +5 12 3 (3) 4 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Improved Parry, “Are You Not Entertained?” +8 13 3 (3) 4 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Maneuver Mastery 13 4 (3) 4 Class Skill The Gladiator class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features All of the following are class features of the Gladiator Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Gladiator is proficient with simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields). Maneuvers: Gladiators begin their careers with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. The disciplines available are Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, Setting Sun. Once the Gladiator knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by a Gladiator is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise mentioned. Gladiator maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance and do not provoke attacks of opportunity to initiate. Gladiators learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown in the table. A Gladiator must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it (also, ToB, Table 3-1, page 39, for highest level maneuver available for each level). Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Gladiator level after that, the Gladiator can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one that he already knows, forgetting the old maneuver in favor of learning a brand a new one. The Gladiator can choose a maneuver of any level that is within his restrictions. For example, upon reaching 10th level, a Gladiator could trade in any single 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th level or lower, as long as he meets the prerequisites. Only one maneuver can be traded at any given level. Maneuvers Readied: Gladiators can ready all three maneuvers that they know at first level, but as they advance in level and learn more maneuvers, they must strategize and use their battle prowess to select their maneuvers more carefully. Gladiators ready maneuvers by planning out their battle tactics for 5 minutes. The maneuvers chosen remain readied unless the Gladiator takes the rime to change his tactics to a new strategy. There is no need to sleep or rest to ready maneuvers; any time 5 minutes is spent in planning for his next battle, the Gladiator can change readied maneuvers. The Gladiator begins each encounter with all his readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times they have been used since originally chosen. Initiating a maneuver expends it for the current encounter, so each maneuver can be used once per round (unless the Gladiator recovers them, as described below). Gladiators are unique among martial adepts, often relying on their adaptability and arena experience to use their maneuvers. Gladiators have some limited control over the order in which their maneuvers play out. Gladiators learn quickly that they must attempt to anticipate anything that their opponent may try to throw at them and therefore are able to choose the first maneuver available to be initiated, of those readied, before their first action. The rest of the maneuvers are momentarily withheld and inaccessible. At the end of each turn, one previously withheld maneuver (randomly determined) is granted to the Gladiator, and thus becomes accessible for his next turn and subsequent turns. A Gladiator can freely choose to initiate any maneuver that is currently granted when his turn begins, but cannot initiate those that are withheld. If he chooses not to employ a maneuver in a given round, his currently granted maneuvers remain available, and a previously withheld maneuver becomes available, in the manner previously described. In other words, if the Gladiator uses a maneuver or does not use a maneuver, at the end of his turn, one previously withheld maneuver from those readied will be granted to him. Over the course of a few rounds, all the Gladiator’s maneuvers will eventually be granted. If, at the end of the Gladiator’s turn, he cannot be granted a maneuver because no withheld maneuvers are remaining and he used his final available maneuver, the Gladiator recovers all expended maneuvers, and his original chosen maneuver is made available, starting the whole process over again. Gladiators’ practice in battle increases their foresight into how to enter into combat. At 5th level, he can choose his first two maneuvers that will be available and his remaining withheld maneuvers are randomly selected from the rest, as described above. In the same way, at 15th level, the Gladiator can choose his first three maneuvers to be available. Stances Known: A Gladiator begins play with knowledge of one 1st level stance from the Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, or Setting Sun discipline. At 4th, 10th and 16th level, a Gladiator can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know. Mercy: At 1st Level the Gladiator suffers no penalty to attack rolls when attacking with a weapon to inflict non-lethal damage. Exotic Weapon: The Gladiator receives a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat at 1st level. “Are you not entertained?”: At 1st level, the Gladiator gains a special use of his Perform skill. Once per day, the Gladiator can attempt to influence a large crowd of people, as though he is using the Diplomacy skill, with a +2 bonus to this check. This bonus increases by +1 at each third level after first. Unarmed Strike: A Gladiator of 2nd level or higher gains the benefit of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Arena Guile: At second level, the Gladiator adds a +1 bonus to all Bluff and Sense Motive checks that relate directly to combat. This bonus increases to +2 at 6th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 14th, and +5 at 18th levels. Uncanny Dodge: At 4th level, a Gladiator retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Gladiator already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Armor Optimization: At 5th level choose any one type of armor that you are proficient in (e.g. scale mail or breastplate). When wearing that armor type, your armor check penalty is reduced by one and maximum dexterity bonus increased by one. Improved Feint: The Gladiator is adept and getting the upper hand on his opponents. At 5th level, he gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat. No mercy: At 6th level Gladiator can perform a coup de grace as a standard action rather than a full-round action. Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 8th level and higher, a Gladiator can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the gladiator by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Gladiator levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the levels from all classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Insightful Feint: At 9th level, the penalties for feinting against non-humanoids and intelligent creatures are reduced by 2. At 13th level the penalties are reduced by an additional 2. Improved Armor Optimization: At 12th level choose any one type of armor that you are proficient in (e.g. scale mail or breastplate). If that armor would normally reduce your speed, a Gladiator ignores this reduction. Plus, when wearing that armor the Gladiator receives DR 2/--. Parry: A Gladiator of 14th level gains a +2 bonus to opposed rolls to avoid being tripped or disarmed. Superior Feint: At 17th level the Gladiator can use Improved Feint as a free action, but only once per round. Improved Parry: The bonus from parry increases by 2 at 19th level, to a total bonus of +4. Maneuver Mastery: At 20th level, the Gladiator has perfected his art of combat. If he drops an opponent that he previously targeted with a maneuver, he may choose to copy that maneuver and use it again to make another attack against an opponent he threatens in the same turn. This ability can only be used to make such a copy once per turn. More to come, under construction... PLAYING A CLASS NAME Brief description on how to play the class you are designing. Religion: A brief description of the different religions that the class commonly follows. It's best to state your sources if you are using non-core gods. Other Classes: An in detail section on how your class interacts with other classes. Best to state your sources if your going to refer to non-core classes. Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat. Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power. CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD A quote of somebody else talking about your class! A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world. Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class. Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class). Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards. NPC Reaction This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class. CLASS NAME IN THE GAME This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically. Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting. Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class.
Otto the Bugbear 03-08-08, 07:23 AM	I like it. At first blush it appears to fit exactly in the sweet spot power wise, though I haven't gone over it in minute detail looking to nit pick. It will work just fine in a game the way you have it. That said, I'll take the time to make a few comments... Mercy: I really like this one. Important to keep. :cool: Exotic Weapon: Too early. Move this one to 4th level, which frees up a different suggestion I'm going to make below. Unarmed Strike: I'm not crazy about this one. A simple gauntlet, or better yet a spiked gauntlet, accomplishes this, and just seems to fit the theme better. Leaving it isn't a big deal. Arena Guile: Good fluff. :cool: Uncanny Dodge: Improved Uncanny Dodge: I'm not sure this fits a gladiator either. Typically, they'd both start out aware of each other, so this is mostly just a concession toward his non-gladiatorial life; a.k.a. adventuring. 'Can't be flanked' may be argued for big gladiator melees, but then you can just put in that he cannot be flanked or that foes' flanking bonus against him decreases by 2. Armor Optimization: :cool: Improved Feint: :cool: No mercy: Ok. It's a pretty nice ability, but not too worrisome most of the time. Insightful Feint: :cool: Improved Armor Optimization: Should this perhaps be tied to the first ability? As is, you could have a character choose a different armor here than the regular Armor Optimization. Parry: :cool: “Are you not entertained?”: I'd move this to 1st level to replace Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Then, I'd change it so the bonus is +1 for each odd class level. 15th level just seems a little late to actually be influencing a crowd. With a scaling bonus, they start out with a crude knowledge of this skill, and they hone that to perfection as the continue to gain class levels. Superior Feint: :cool: Improved Parry: :cool: Maneuver Mastery: This really nice. A great capstone ability. Perhaps a minor change to the wording. "At 20th level, the Gladiator has perfected his art of combat. If he drops an opponent that he previously targeted with a maneuver that round, he may choose to copy that maneuver and use it again to make another attack against an opponent he threatens in the same turn. This ability can only be used to make such a copy once per turn." I know you copied the Cleave text, but it never hurts to be more clear. Overall, you get a :ayyyy!: for this class.
jradd777 03-09-08, 12:50 AM	I like it. At first blush it appears to fit exactly in the sweet spot power wise, though I haven't gone over it in minute detail looking to nit pick. It will work just fine in a game the way you have it. First of all, thanks for responding and thanks for critiquing in a constructive way and fairly thoroughly. Mercy: I really like this one. Important to keep. :cool: Arena Guile: Good fluff. :cool: Armor Optimization: :cool: Improved Feint: :cool: Insightful Feint: :cool: Parry: :cool: Superior Feint: :cool: Improved Parry: :cool: Overall, you get a :ayyyy!: for this class. Wow! Thanks for all this purely positive feedback. I can't take credit for all of it however. I tried to make it clear that this is a remake of a class that is already out there. I can take credit for leaving these in from the original rather than letting them go, or for moving them around in ways that helped balance the levels or whatever. It's encouraging to have my first response be mostly good. I hope I can answer the rest of your concerns and comments in a way as to keep the vote of confidence. Exotic Weapon: Too early. Move this one to 4th level, which frees up a different suggestion I'm going to make below. Again, this is a remake and the original gave them this at this level. I left this here because I don't see a justifiable reason to move it, and in the original they received four more of these at every fourth level after this one. Flavor-wise, a friend of mine said it fairly well, so I'll paraphrase: Gladiators are thrown into an arena and if they aren't great fighters from the beginning they die, they don't go on. They have to start with a good amount of battle prowess, often picking up whatever weapon the arena master throws at them. Unarmed Strike: I'm not crazy about this one. A simple gauntlet, or better yet a spiked gauntlet, accomplishes this, and just seems to fit the theme better. Leaving it isn't a big deal. Here's another of the same type of issue. This is the level and ability they got in the original. I left it because it's not game breaking for them to have this and I think it does make sense that they should have the ability to deal lethal damage with their bare fists. A Gladiator should not be unable to harm his opponent if he is disarmed; he would learn to kill his opponent even without weapons. Uncanny Dodge: Improved Uncanny Dodge: I'm not sure this fits a gladiator either. Typically, they'd both start out aware of each other, so this is mostly just a concession toward his non-gladiatorial life; a.k.a. adventuring. 'Can't be flanked' may be argued for big gladiator melees, but then you can just put in that he cannot be flanked or that foes' flanking bonus against him decreases by 2. Again, these were in the original so I was mostly just leaving them in. It's not even so much that this is saying that they'd actually do it in an arena, but that they are able to; they are adept enough in battle that their tactics anticipate enemies' strategies, as well. Also, I sort of based this remake partially on a ToB class that also receives these abilities so I figured they'd be appropriate. No mercy: Ok. It's a pretty nice ability, but not too worrisome most of the time. Very true, again, it was in the original. I liked it a lot, for flavor, and the fact that this is more the knowing of their ability to do, not necessarily any necessity. Improved Armor Optimization: Should this perhaps be tied to the first ability? As is, you could have a character choose a different armor here than the regular Armor Optimization. You're right, a person could choose a different armor... I don't know why they would do that... but I suppose they could... Personally, I'd choose the same one that I chose before and that's what I meant for the ability to do. Now that you've pointed that out however, I'd hate to limit any player from being able to make a choice that they like better... I'll think about this one... but I'm leaning toward leaving it as written to respect player choice. “Are you not entertained?”: I'd move this to 1st level to replace Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Then, I'd change it so the bonus is +1 for each odd class level. 15th level just seems a little late to actually be influencing a crowd. With a scaling bonus, they start out with a crude knowledge of this skill, and they hone that to perfection as the continue to gain class levels. This is one that a friend of mine developed. We decided that it needed to be a really high ability for two reasons. First, flavor-wise, a Gladiator won't be famous enough to really do something like this until he's earned a great amount of reknown; when his actions are completely unquestioned... or he will be able to slaughter anyone who openly defies them. Secondly, mechanic-wise, diplomacy is a broken skill. This ability is ridiculously powerful if used in certain ways. To give this early at all could potentially be horribly overpowered. Maneuver Mastery: This really nice. A great capstone ability. Perhaps a minor change to the wording. "At 20th level, the Gladiator has perfected his art of combat. If he drops an opponent that he previously targeted with a maneuver that round, he may choose to copy that maneuver and use it again to make another attack against an opponent he threatens in the same turn. This ability can only be used to make such a copy once per turn." I know you copied the Cleave text, but it never hurts to be more clear. Thanks... actually, I made that up off the top of my head in like 2 seconds, I didn't copy the cleave wording... so I'm doubly impressed with myself and take that as a high compliment. I do like your wording better than my own, so I'll probably snag it and replace mine with yours. I'm actually very proud of this ability because I've been told that others have tried to make a maneuver mastery (since the only martial mastery in the book is stance mastery) but all the ones my friend knows of are either horribly overpowered or much to weak to be half-decent capstones. He thinks that mine is much more balanced and viable. If you're interested, check back. I hope to add all the flavor info and finish this guy out completely polished as a contender for the Cookie Contest! Again, thanks for all the great feedback, if you can, spread the word suggest for others to check it out, critique, etc. Just to post the info, my friend is actually play-testing one of these right now and it's going great! He's got plenty to do, having fun, not overpowered... however, the player is not utilizing his feint at all, which I'm not that happy about, since it gives me less of a gauge on the class, but that's the choices they can make.
Otto the Bugbear 03-09-08, 09:44 AM	Again, this is a remake and the original gave them this at this level. I left this here because I don't see a justifiable reason to move it, and in the original they received four more of these at every fourth level after this one. Flavor-wise, a friend of mine said it fairly well, so I'll paraphrase: Gladiators are thrown into an arena and if they aren't great fighters from the beginning they die, they don't go on. They have to start with a good amount of battle prowess, often picking up whatever weapon the arena master throws at them. The reason to move it is to make room for "Are you not entertained!". That's plus it's less likely that a newbie gladiator would have mastered, or been given the training in an exotic weapon. Here's another of the same type of issue. This is the level and ability they got in the original. I left it because it's not game breaking for them to have this and I think it does make sense that they should have the ability to deal lethal damage with their bare fists. A Gladiator should not be unable to harm his opponent if he is disarmed; he would learn to kill his opponent even without weapons. I'm not convinced, but it's not my class. Again, these were in the original so I was mostly just leaving them in. It's not even so much that this is saying that they'd actually do it in an arena, but that they are able to; they are adept enough in battle that their tactics anticipate enemies' strategies, as well. Also, I sort of based this remake partially on a ToB class that also receives these abilities so I figured they'd be appropriate. It breaks from the theme, as you've admitted by saying "it's not even so much that ... they'd actually do it in an arena", which is why I objected to it. And still do. I'd remove this if it were me. You're right, a person could choose a different armor... I don't know why they would do that... but I suppose they could... Personally, I'd choose the same one that I chose before and that's what I meant for the ability to do. Now that you've pointed that out however, I'd hate to limit any player from being able to make a choice that they like better... I'll think about this one... but I'm leaning toward leaving it as written to respect player choice. Then allow them to change the first one when they get the second one. Perhaps with some training time. This is one that a friend of mine developed. We decided that it needed to be a really high ability for two reasons. First, flavor-wise, a Gladiator won't be famous enough to really do something like this until he's earned a great amount of reknown; when his actions are completely unquestioned... or he will be able to slaughter anyone who openly defies them. Secondly, mechanic-wise, diplomacy is a broken skill. This ability is ridiculously powerful if used in certain ways. To give this early at all could potentially be horribly overpowered. That's why I limited it to +1 for every odd class level. Waiting until high level means that he has no influence over the crowd, then BAM!, big bonus. With the suggested change, he builds upon his ability to influence the crowd over the course of his career. And, in fact, the changed version has only a +8 bonus at 15th level. As far as being broken, don't give him a bonus to Diplomacy at all if you're afraid of someone breaking the game with it, or if you're unaware of how to head off a player intent on breaking Diplomacy. Thanks... actually, I made that up off the top of my head in like 2 seconds, I didn't copy the cleave wording... so I'm doubly impressed with myself and take that as a high compliment. I do like your wording better than my own, so I'll probably snag it and replace mine with yours. I'm actually very proud of this ability because I've been told that others have tried to make a maneuver mastery (since the only martial mastery in the book is stance mastery) but all the ones my friend knows of are either horribly overpowered or much to weak to be half-decent capstones. He thinks that mine is much more balanced and viable. In general I think the concept of capstone abilities are highly overrated, but if you insist on one, at least this one isn't terribly broken (at either the too powerful or too weak end of the spectrum).
jradd777 03-09-08, 03:36 PM	The reason to move it is to make room for "Are you not entertained!". That's plus it's less likely that a newbie gladiator would have mastered, or been given the training in an exotic weapon. Yeah, in our campaigns, we always play that people have trained partially to be whatever class they take before they actually get into it, because most classes only make sense if you think about it that way. Proficiency with an exotic weapon doesn't mean that he's mastered it's use, just that he can simply use it without taking a huge penalty; it's not as though he gets weapon focus and specialization at first level, which do imply mastery with a weapon. And again, I like the idea of them all of a sudden being able to influence a crowd. They way I see it, no one even knows who they are until they've lasted so long that everyone knows who they are. I don't see a 1st level Gladiator being able to command the attention of a group of people, much less sway any opinion. We are looking back at Gladiators through the romanticized point of view that has been handed to us from generations past. Gladiators were dirt, people sent into a coliseum to be killed, many of them thieves and criminals, in real life, real history. Maximus from the movie Gladiator is either completely unique or made up from later concepts of a fairy tale version of the grisly truth of the coliseum. So if a Gladiator is ever to be able to influence a crowd, it's far enough into their career and training that people know their name and only go to the arena to see them fight; there's no way that he could come from behind those iron bars and even be more than a speck in a huge circle of dirt to all those spectators. They wouldn't be there to listen to anything he has to say, if he talked, they'd ignore him because they came there to see him die, not live. That's probably the best argument I can give in final defense of leaving "Are you not entertained?" where it is. I could say a lot more on the same train of thought but that's the gist of why it doesn't make sense to me. It breaks from the theme, as you've admitted by saying "it's not even so much that ... they'd actually do it in an arena", which is why I objected to it. And still do. I'd remove this if it were me. That's not me admitting that it breaks from the theme of Gladiator. It breaks from the realm of the arena, true. However, I do want these characters to be used by players for D&D campaigns so it makes sense that they have this from their experience in fighting and that when in other situations they have it's application. I talk more on this later, but I'm not literally making a Gladiator to fight only in an arena, I'm trying to make the one that is already out there more effective and attractive as a class. Then allow them to change the first one when they get the second one. Perhaps with some training time. There's no precedent for an ability that does that... I don't think, if you can find one, I might do it. But I don't want to create any completely new mechanics, or set new precedents, this is just a remake. Plus, does that really make sense in character... "I've mastered this type of armor, been using it for years... Oop, I've trained in here a little while and mastered a different armor better than the one that I had before and I'm no longer good with that old one... weird." I'd rather either let the person get two completely different uses of two armors or a really, really good use with one. If there's some sort of precedent for an ability that loses an older one to make a newly granted one better, I might also offer your suggestion as a third option. That's why I limited it to +1 for every odd class level. Waiting until high level means that he has no influence over the crowd, then BAM!, big bonus. With the suggested change, he builds upon his ability to influence the crowd over the course of his career. And, in fact, the changed version has only a +8 bonus at 15th level. As far as being broken, don't give him a bonus to Diplomacy at all if you're afraid of someone breaking the game with it, or if you're unaware of how to head off a player intent on breaking Diplomacy. Like I said before, my concept of a Gladiator must be different from yours. Overall, yeah, I'd say we just have a difference of opinion. The only thing I can think to explain it is that I fell in love the concept of the class and liked it's mixture of abilities but noticed that it got a few too many of somethings and not enough oomhp somewhere else. It seems to me that you are starting with what your concept of a Gladiator is and building from that. I'm starting with a class that is already out there and simply trying to better the design and make it more effective and attractive to play. If I were making an entirely new Gladiator class, I'd probably go with a lot more of your ideas... but that's not what I'm trying to do. I don't want to overhaul the Gladiator just tweak him up to speed. My original love for the class (and as a sort of tribute) is another big part of why I can't let too many of these things go. It wouldn't be enough the same class if I cut some of these things and moved others around. I'm going to try to put in a link to the original version somehow and I've put in the old table. Again, I don't want to break too far from that original concept, so I probably won't be making all the changes you're talking about. In general I think the concept of capstone abilities are highly overrated, but if you insist on one, at least this one isn't terribly broken (at either the too powerful or too weak end of the spectrum). Thanks, again, I am really proud of it. I do insist on capstones normally but more as a signification of what the person has attained, so... yeah. Anyway, also, I'm running through some new ideas with some friend of mine, possibly giving the Gladiator an ability to take fighter only feats as a fighter of two levels lower, possibly an ability which later improves their ability to fight with weapons similar to the exotic weapon that they chose, similar to melee weapon mastery mixed with weapon group mastery. Thinking about moving No Mercy up to fourth and giving something at 7th level, since the usefulness of No Mercy makes 7th similar to a dead level.... I don't know, I'm thinking on some minor changes, keeping anyone who is interested posted!
Konor 03-09-08, 06:40 PM	Just tell me where I can find the orginal class and in a couple of days, I will say my thoughts. Good deal, eh? :rolleyes:
jradd777 03-09-08, 09:52 PM	Just tell me where I can find the orginal class and in a couple of days, I will say my thoughts. Good deal, eh? :rolleyes: That is a good deal. I searched and searched and I think this (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://athas.org/products/ds3) is the link that I originally followed to find it. Thanks for the interest! Let me know what you think!
Flamewarrior 03-10-08, 10:56 AM	jradd: great maneuver mechanic - possibly the one that all ToB classes should've used. On the old class abilities, while I certainly agree with you that representing other aspects of the gladiator's life's a good idea, uncanny dodge isn't any aspect of it - it doesn't even protect against feints! But I don't think they should be immune to feint, either; if they were, the value of learning how to use them would plummet. "Are you not entertained?": I agree with Otto on it having a scaling bonus nearly from the start for 2 reasons - first, with gladiators being a separate social class, there were people that reacted favorably to even the beginners, and the small starting bonus could represent that. Second: a 15th-level character is a living myth, that probably goes on epic (the game meaning of "epic" be damned, that system's broken) quests only instead of fighting for show, so it's too late. Otto: EWP should stay for other reason too - you gonna tell me retiarii are 4th level, or just massively ineficient?
Otto the Bugbear 03-10-08, 12:01 PM	Otto: EWP should stay for other reason too - you gonna tell me retiarii are 4th level, or just massively ineficient? I wasn't thinking of the net (even weighted) or trident as exotic weapons. Obviously someone at WotC thought of the net as exotic, which I never notice before this.
jradd777 03-10-08, 02:26 PM	Hmm... I'll have to think on the uncanny dodge thing. I really think that it fits simply by the extreme skill in battle and tactics that they would have (plus, as I said, this gladiator is partially modeled after warblade, who also gets it, or for the Tiger Claw focusing Gladiator, similar to Barbarian, etc [although, perhaps I could grant an ability at that level based on a discipline of the Gladiator's choosing and give uncanny dodge as the Tiger Claw one? I don't know] also, in the original Dark Sun, they had it, so it's not like I gave it to them, I just didn't take it out, because I didn't see a significant reason against them keeping it). With just one person thinking it didn't fit, I wasn't that shaken, I'll see what others say, too, since you guys are the only two to really respond so far. One more defense for Uncanny dodge, I'm not using it to represent an aspect of them, but to make a statement about how good they are at fighting against any enemies. Besides, I rescind my statement from before. I think that a Gladiator would learn to do this from fighting in the arena. Good Gladiators were consistently pitted against more than one foe or put in ambush situations. Like I said, Gladiators were meant to be killed, not survive. The near impossible situations would teach them to overcome the things that uncanny dodge would represent. Why does it make sense for a Gladiator to be able to be sneak attacked by a rogue that's not significantly more experienced than him? Why would it make sense for him to be at a disadvantage to fighting against enemies positioned around him strategically? All he does in life (for money, fame, and to keep his own life) is fight. He's used to fighting to the death; the slightest slip in his defense means it's all over, he knows he can never allow that to happen. Without uncanny dodge even a level 1 rogue could sneak attack a higher level Gladiator. Does that really make sense? Honestly? Why would he ever lose his Dex to AC, unless he's immobilized? He's totally used to fighting in all kinds of crazy situations (spike pits to avoid while fighting lions, other Gladiators using all sorts of crazy fighting styles and weapons, etc). I just think his ability to fight in general grants him this ability because otherwise... he would be more of a weapon expert, or something... than a fighting expert, like I mean for him to be. Flamewarrior: Thanks overall for the support and response. I'm very proud of my application of the ToB material to this concept, so double thanks for that. Also, good point with the exotic weapon comment. I still don't buy the idea of Gladiators having an effective enough following to warrant an early cha-based ability. It'd be like stretching the dwarves +2 craft bonus to encompass them being able to cut the craft time of any item related to stone or metal by 3/4... or something. In other words, just because there's a small chance of some favor from a select crowd, a Gladiator would start refining an ability to talk/influence the audience from first level? No. The Gladiator would not be aware than anyone in the crowd would ever listen to him, until they are already all chanting his name. No, I just don't see why he would try to develop the skill over time... it would just kind of happen to him as a result of status gained, not a conscious effort, which is what I think the gradual increase implies... especially from first level. Now, I might move it to an earlier spot, since you may be right about him going to do different things... but still I think any true Gladiator could never get the thrill of the arena out of his heart and his head... he'd have to go back for more. I don't know... you guys may be slowly changing my mind... but for the moment, I just can't imagine a good enough reason to change those couple of things... if I do decide to put some of those other new things in that I was thinking about, maybe I'll shift stuff around because of that, to make more room and balance... but as is, I think it's almost perfect... especially since I've play-tested it already over a few levels and it played out GREAT! Well-balanced, interesting decisions to make, enough abilities not to be bored or be doing the same thing over and over again. It was amazing. Anyway, busy, busy, keep posting opinions. I may be shooting them down initially but I do mull them over in my head in between my posts and I've talked on your side of the argument to myself a few times, just haven't beaten my own argument in my head, especially when I look at the original Gladiator and how this one is the same but more effective and fun with just a tiny bit extra. Again, thanks guys for posting... if I ever come across as just a complete jerk, I don't intend it that way, and just politely let me know if I sound rude or brash, okay.
Flamewarrior 03-10-08, 07:03 PM	First: maybe something that was optional per discipline might be a good idea indeed. On uncanny dodge, I actually forgot to take the improved one into consideration: you see how those 2 abilities aren't really related (except for someone at WotC mixing the 2) in terms of a fighting style? Well, I didn't even remember the immunity to flanking (with which I agree) because I was supporting Otto on disagreeing with the immunity to surprise; so, the ideal situation for me would be you giving one without the other. Also, "partially modelled on the warblade" seems sort of a non-argument - this class, however similar to the warblade it might be, is its own beast and should have what fits in its concept. Why would the gladiator be vulnerable to flat-footedness? IMO, because they have no more reason not to be than anyone else; in fact, even a bit less, because their bread-and-butter kind of fight never involves surprise rounds. Social stuff: I was going for a small bonus at the start (much like the +2 you just considered), because their different social standing attracts some people (not necessarily of a specific social class themselves, so it's not the same as a larger bonus with regards to a fixed set of people). And, while a 15th-level gladiator might come back sometimes, they're certainly not staying there, so yes, it's too late. No problem whatsoever with your attitude, and see Otto's reply: he forgot/didn't know nets are exotic ... well, that sorta leaves us having to have it at 1st. But, moreover, Otto: forgetting specific analogy to real Rome, I still think the entertainment warriors would train in bizarre stuff, such as the spiked chain and Eastern weapons in a Rome-like setting; isn't that "more cool" to most people than shortsword fighting?
bkdubs123 03-10-08, 08:44 PM	Just a crazed thought. What about an ability that allows them to make some sort of charisma checks on people/crowds based on dealing a lot of damage? The idea being that the Gladiator does something awesome and the crowd/person sees it and thinks, "Man, that was awesome." I also would like to see this class get some reason to have at least a medium charisma score. Maybe they can do cool things with intimidate (they can already do cool things with bluff). Maybe after scoring a critical hit they gain a bonus to AC equal to their charisma score for a few rounds or something (foes are just afraid to commit to attacks against him). Thinking in terms of 4e development and the tank role, perhaps he has abilities that draw enemies to him, but then after seeing what a serious contender the Gladiator is the enemies are afraid to fight him. Then, to further the enemies dilemna perhaps the Gladiator can punish them even more severly for not attacking him.
jradd777 03-10-08, 08:50 PM	First: maybe something that was optional per discipline might be a good idea indeed. On uncanny dodge, I actually forgot to take the improved one into consideration: you see how those 2 abilities aren't really related (except for someone at WotC mixing the 2) in terms of a fighting style? Well, I didn't even remember the immunity to flanking (with which I agree) because I was supporting Otto on disagreeing with the immunity to surprise; so, the ideal situation for me would be you giving one without the other. Also, "partially modelled on the warblade" seems sort of a non-argument - this class, however similar to the warblade it might be, is its own beast and should have what fits in its concept. First of all, it's only a non-argument in the sense of flavor-wise fit. It's a good argument for the fact that I am trying to keep the class balanced. I'm modeling it after a working class. Since you weren't here looking over my shoulder, you don't know the balancing and rebalancing I did and how much the Warblade played into when I gave certain abilities, etc, when coming from the Original Gladiator, who I felt was leaning more toward needing to be like Warblade than any other class. Especially since they already shared a key ability that I was using to determine it's balance (which was... uncanny dodge and improved). But, I can't fault you for that... I can point out that because of it's importance during the design process, the note that Warblade also has this ability was extremely relevant since I decided on keeping it from the beginning... and I have to go back to the drawing board on balance if I want to take Uncanny and Improved away because it is an effective and useful ability that they originally had, that I would be taking away, even though another very similar has that ability, because that is a big reason not to take it away, when thinking in terms of roles within the adventuring party. However, speaking solely from flavor fit, you're absolutely right... it has nothing to do with that. Basically, also, though, it's a comparison of... why should the Warblade have it and the Gladiator not? What's the Warblade got flavorfully that makes it appropriate there and not here? In comparing the two in terms of flavor, I do think a good analysis could be drawn, though, now that I am thinking of it that way. I may even rescind my previous comment... perhaps it's not a non-argument at all, in any sense. Because... the way in which the two are similar is exactly the reason they both should have it. The reason that Warblade has it... is the same reason that the Gladiator should. The ways in which he "is [his] own beast" are unrelated to Uncanny Dodge and therefore, do not invalidate it's flavor for Gladiator. But they ways in which they are the same are the reasons which validate my argument. I also didn't want to give the benefit of Improved Uncanny without Uncanny, unless I knew there was a precedent somewhere, which I don't think there is, so I won't. And Improved Uncanny, you agree, does absolutely fit. However, after all that, I do think that more choices to the player may need to be in order. Perhaps, I will replace the Uncanny Dodge and/or improved Uncanny Dodge, with an option for each discipline, where uncanny and/or improved represent Tiger Claw... while three others would represent a choice to focus on one of the other three. Because... if it's a completely new ability like that... maybe I wouldn't feel so bound by tradition and break precedent and simply give them Improved Uncanny Dodge as a benefit without the benefit of Uncanny... I still have to think about that... but maybe. OH! Wow! I just realized, now that you explained it the way you did about the argument against Uncanny Dodge, alone, without regard to Improved! I was wondering why he was talking about Gladiators gaining immunity to feint and stuff like that... Ok, I do see what you meant, now... Man! Did I just completely miss the point or what, ha ha... sorry about that.... But again... I'm uncomfortable breaking precedent too much in a home-brew remake of a class... I like to stick as much as possible to standards already in place. Again, though... if I can grant it as something extremely special (like other things that have precedent of doing that [e.g. monk feats, that don't need pre-reqs]), maybe I will, I'll have to rethink this whole thing again. Why would the gladiator be vulnerable to flat-footedness? IMO, because they have no more reason not to be than anyone else; in fact, even a bit less, because their bread-and-butter kind of fight never involves surprise rounds. But... wait... just because he "doesn't lose his Dex to AC" doesn't mean he can't be caught flat-footed, or am I wrong?... it just simply means he still gets his Dex, right? So, then he can still be surprised... and sneak attacked, even, I think, just can't lose his Dex to AC when it happens... because it even says... "even when he is caught flat-footed..." so he can be, he's not immune... Am I completely wrong? I don't think so... let me know, though, I'm actually going to spend a couple hours probably researching that... but still let me know what you come up with... Social stuff: I was going for a small bonus at the start (much like the +2 you just considered), because their different social standing attracts some people (not necessarily of a specific social class themselves, so it's not the same as a larger bonus with regards to a fixed set of people). And, while a 15th-level gladiator might come back sometimes, they're certainly not staying there, so yes, it's too late. I'm almost thinking about getting rid of the ability entirely... I only added it for a bit of a non-combat ability at later levels that would only come into play once in a blue moon, but might be fun and fit the flavor. I never meant for it to really be a big deal. I didn't even think of it, my friend did, and at first I didn't even like it. Now, I'm liking it less and less. It has less to do with anything than even the discussion about flat-footedness... because that at least describes how good they are at battle... In the original Dark Sun most Gladiators are slaves, no one would care what they have to say... I barely know why I even put it in at all... I think my friend just talked me into it... I might just drop it... I certainly don't think it should apply in low levels and now I am becoming convinced it's so inconsequential and ridiculous at high levels that maybe it's just overly superfluous fluff... If I do get rid of it, I can put in an entirely fighting/martial based ability I've been thinking about adding anyway... I might just cut it... maybe I'll put them both in the write up and just ask for which is a better fit... or something... ugh, I'm so undecided on that point now... No problem whatsoever with your attitude, and see Otto's reply: he forgot/didn't know nets are exotic ... well, that sorta leaves us having to have it at 1st. Thanks... I just like to make sure. People have told me that I often come across as arrogant, sometimes to the point of rudeness, and I hate that because I honestly try to respect everyone's opinions and thoughts, etc. So, I just want to emphasize that I appreciate the input, even if somehow, sometime, I might come across as hostile or something. Normally, it's just be being emphatic about my own ideas.
jradd777 03-10-08, 09:02 PM	Ahh, bkdubs123... of course, you come in and throw even more on my plate, ha ha, this is all your fault anyway with the "Are you not entertained?" (It was his idea) Just a crazed thought. What about an ability that allows them to make some sort of charisma checks on people/crowds based on dealing a lot of damage? The idea being that the Gladiator does something awesome and the crowd/person sees it and thinks, "Man, that was awesome." I also would like to see this class get some reason to have at least a medium charisma score. Maybe they can do cool things with intimidate (they can already do cool things with bluff). Maybe after scoring a critical hit they gain a bonus to AC equal to their charisma score for a few rounds or something (foes are just afraid to commit to attacks against him). Thinking in terms of 4e development and the tank role, perhaps he has abilities that draw enemies to him, but then after seeing what a serious contender the Gladiator is the enemies are afraid to fight him. Then, to further the enemies dilemna perhaps the Gladiator can punish them even more severly for not attacking him. Interesting idea... it'll take some work, though, we might discuss it, like I said though, I almost want to get away from trying to add more Cha-based stuff anyway... and let them just take a purely Striker role (to use your 4e terms). I feel like if I start adding more Cha-based abilities, I'll need to lessen the amount of fighting abilities they get to offset that counterbalance... I'm not really ready to lose too much else... I cut most of what they got in half to give them the minimal maneuvers they have because in the end they come out with a lot more good than they had, even doing that... I don't want to start in with a whole new slew of abilities... Of course, I have already begun talking about some sort of path system... so I'll log this away as a possibility for one of those... possibly... Basically, maybe I'll add one more discipline (unless one of them already has some of this) that does focus on Cha-based stuff, for those who do want a Gladiator who would work primarily from his Cha.
jradd777 03-19-08, 08:00 PM	I hate to :bump: my own work but I need some more opinions. Page 7 is a horrible place to be fishing for ideas.
Flamewarrior 03-20-08, 12:49 PM	[Nevermind, I misposted for now. Will whip something else up later.]
Otto the Bugbear 03-20-08, 01:05 PM	But, moreover, Otto: forgetting specific analogy to real Rome, I still think the entertainment warriors would train in bizarre stuff, such as the spiked chain and Eastern weapons in a Rome-like setting; isn't that "more cool" to most people than shortsword fighting? Yeah. Honestly, it's not too big a deal. Moving it just evens out the progression of powers gained. Leaving it at first, and putting "Are you not entertained?" also at 1st level isn't an issue. Most exotic weapons aren't that super-powered compared to mundane weapons. Also, I find most of them downright stupid in concept.
Flamewarrior 03-22-08, 12:41 AM	[Whips up something else.] Also, I find most of them downright stupid in concept.I SO agree. bkdubs123: I'm thinking more a victory shout that you may let off when you hit people by a lot of points (Why not criticals? Because I don't want to benefit frequent-critical weapons across the board.), that gives bonuses to nearby allies. Path system: I'm actually not a fan of it - I did mostly like the old class as it was, except of course that it was weak. But a new discipline, OTOH, should be great stuff. First of all, it's only a non-argument in the sense of flavor-wise fit. It's a good argument for the fact that I am trying to keep the class balanced. I'm modeling it after a working class. Since you weren't here looking over my shoulder, you don't know the balancing and rebalancing I did and how much the Warblade played into when I gave certain abilities, etc, when coming from the Original Gladiator, who I felt was leaning more toward needing to be like Warblade than any other class. Especially since they already shared a key ability that I was using to determine it's balance (which was... uncanny dodge and improved). I also didn't want to give the benefit of Improved Uncanny without Uncanny, unless I knew there was a precedent somewhere, which I don't think there is, so I won't. And Improved Uncanny, you agree, does absolutely fit.I don't need to follow you over the process to have an opinion - seeing the result should be enough. What about an ability that just gave immunity to flanking, an improved flanking bonus, and perhaps the ability to negate flanking immunity as a rogue? Basically, also, though, it's a comparison of... why should the Warblade have it and the Gladiator not?I'll just say my warblade doesn't (I rewrote a bunch of classes; not otherwise relevant). But... wait... just because he "doesn't lose his Dex to AC" doesn't mean he can't be caught flat-footed, or am I wrong?... it just simply means he still gets his Dex, right? So, then he can still be surprised... and sneak attacked, even, I think, just can't lose his Dex to AC when it happens... because it even says... "even when he is caught flat-footed..." so he can be, he's not immune... Am I completely wrong? I don't think so... let me know, though, I'm actually going to spend a couple hours probably researching that... but still let me know what you come up with...We both were wrong to some extent: really, it doesn't mean it doesn't become flat-footed, but "becoming flat-footed" without "losing Dex to AC" has basically no effect whatsoever; sneak attack triggers on "denied Dex to AC", not "flat-footed". I'm almost thinking about getting rid of the ability entirely... I only added it for a bit of a non-combat ability at later levels that would only come into play once in a blue moon, but might be fun and fit the flavor. I never meant for it to really be a big deal. I didn't even think of it, my friend did, and at first I didn't even like it. Now, I'm liking it less and less. It has less to do with anything than even the discussion about flat-footedness... because that at least describes how good they are at battle... In the original Dark Sun most Gladiators are slaves, no one would care what they have to say... I barely know why I even put it in at all... I think my friend just talked me into it... I might just drop it... I certainly don't think it should apply in low levels and now I am becoming convinced it's so inconsequential and ridiculous at high levels that maybe it's just overly superfluous fluff... If I do get rid of it, I can put in an entirely fighting/martial based ability I've been thinking about adding anyway... I might just cut it... maybe I'll put them both in the write up and just ask for which is a better fit... or something... ugh, I'm so undecided on that point now...Each class really should have something noteworthy to do to influence non-combat stuff. You already found one - why let it go? On how it might break Diplomacy, how about you import your Rich Burlew fix link from the apologetic? Thanks... I just like to make sure. People have told me that I often come across as arrogant, sometimes to the point of rudeness, and I hate that because I honestly try to respect everyone's opinions and thoughts, etc. So, I just want to emphasize that I appreciate the input, even if somehow, sometime, I might come across as hostile or something. Normally, it's just be being emphatic about my own ideas.Not a problem. You likely already saw I absolutely don't care about "politeness".
jradd777 03-22-08, 01:57 AM	Path system: I'm actually not a fan of it - I did mostly like the old class as it was, except of course that it was weak. But a new discipline, OTOH, should be great stuff. Okay. That's understandable... I'm actually not that sure that I'd want to do that anyway... Maybe I could write up a proposal version and see if it actually looks good and if not scrap it... I don't need to follow you over the process to have an opinion - seeing the result should be enough. What about an ability that just gave immunity to flanking, an improved flanking bonus, and perhaps the ability to negate flanking immunity as a rogue? No, you don't have to follow the process to have an opinion... but being aware of the process always gives you a better and more informed opinion of the final result, which holds a much higher regard, in my opinion. I don't think that rogues should be able to sneak attack the gladiator unless the gladiator is enough lower level than the rogue to imply that the rogue is better at sneak attacking than the gladiator is at quickly adapting to a previously unforeseen attack. Period. I think that the Uncanny Dodge abilities reflect that perfectly. He's trained hard and mastered combat to the level that unless another person has also trained heavily in combat only (not skills and all those other things that rogues are supposedly training with as well as their ability to fight/sneak attack) that other person should not be able to catch him off guard enough to strike one of his vital areas/place a precise blow. He deserves the benefits of both the abilities for the mere respect of the amount of rigorous physical training in martial ability that he has undergone to do what he does. Now, if Rogues lose their massive amounts of skills that they should be keeping up and working on and gain full BAB... or something to denote that they should be able to catch a heavily trained fighter off guard. I'll see a good reason to remove the abilities completely. My final decision is that both abilities will stay or Improved Uncanny Dodge might be omitted but only if I need to make room for some new ability. We both were wrong to some extent: really, it doesn't mean it doesn't become flat-footed, but "becoming flat-footed" without "losing Dex to AC" has basically no effect whatsoever; sneak attack triggers on "denied Dex to AC", not "flat-footed". Thanks for clearing that up. I haven't played a character with sneak attack before so I wasn't 100% on precisely how it worked. I knew the wording was important in specific situations but that's all I was sure about. Each class really should have something noteworthy to do to influence non-combat stuff. You already found one - why let it go? On how it might break Diplomacy, how about you import your Rich Burlew fix link from the apologetic? That's true and a good point. However... on one hand, I don't like to let that "meta-game" type thinking move so far into my class creation that I put in abilities that don't really make sense for a class. In a way, I added the ToB maneuvers to stress the intensive nature of the Gladiator's training. I'm making them very martially oriented, which should detract from their ability to use "skill-type" and "non-combat" features. Basically, just because I know as a gamer that it'd be cool if I could do fighting and non-combat stuff, doesn't mean that it's balanced or makes any sense. I don't want to be arbitrarily adding a non-combat ability just because each class "should" have one... I would have to flavor the Gladiator by the overly romanticized version (that I hate), to really make it viable in my opinion... so I'm balancing my own respect for the correct Gladiator against a need for a non-combat ability, in a way. On the other hand... the Rich Burlew fix did seem okay... (although, I really mean to do my own fix at some point... so I really try to avoid that sort of thing). That was just a patch/quick-fix because the use of Diplomacy by Apologetic was being so heavily criticized. If I decide to leave it, I probably will include the link to help it remain balanced. If, for some reason, I move it to 1st level and let it be a Gladiator "career-long" ability, I'll definitely include it. All that said... I decided right before posting this that I'm going to go ahead and switch "Are You Not Entertained?" to some much earlier level and see how I like it. I'll deal with him not being completely true to what I think a gladiator should really be for the sake of one non-combat ability... for now. If it doesn't fit, I may end up scrapping it completely, though, or going back to the drawing board armed with the gist of bkdubs123's basic concept or your most recent one (I agree about the criticals, for sure, it should be off something else).
Flamewarrior 03-23-08, 08:12 PM	I don't think that rogues should be able to sneak attack the gladiator unless the gladiator is enough lower level than the rogue to imply that the rogue is better at sneak attacking than the gladiator is at quickly adapting to a previously unforeseen attack. Period. I think that the Uncanny Dodge abilities reflect that perfectly. He's trained hard and mastered combat to the level that unless another person has also trained heavily in combat only (not skills and all those other things that rogues are supposedly training with as well as their ability to fight/sneak attack) that other person should not be able to catch him off guard enough to strike one of his vital areas/place a precise blow. He deserves the benefits of both the abilities for the mere respect of the amount of rigorous physical training in martial ability that he has undergone to do what he does.Please read again. I just suggested an ability that would give advantages for and versus flanking, which's what the concept seems good at. Ambushes, OTOH, just don't exist in gladiatorial combat AFAICT. And whatever you do, improved uncanny dodge's definitely the one to stay; if you leave only the first ability, you'll be doing it exactly backwards. However... on one hand, I don't like to let that "meta-game" type thinking move so far into my class creation that I put in abilities that don't really make sense for a class. In a way, I added the ToB maneuvers to stress the intensive nature of the Gladiator's training. I'm making them very martially oriented, which should detract from their ability to use "skill-type" and "non-combat" features. Basically, just because I know as a gamer that it'd be cool if I could do fighting and non-combat stuff, doesn't mean that it's balanced or makes any sense. I don't want to be arbitrarily adding a non-combat ability just because each class "should" have one... I would have to flavor the Gladiator by the overly romanticized version (that I hate), to really make it viable in my opinion... so I'm balancing my own respect for the correct Gladiator against a need for a non-combat ability, in a way.Metagaming is part of making a game element anyway; but for a less pithy response, the reason I suggest an earlier influence ability isn't the belief in a romanticized gladiator, it's just that we know there were people who really liked the matches - for those, just the fact that you won should be enough. Also, in Rome (Athas' another story), gladiators were trained not to kill (at least until getting asked to by the public); thus, being more entertaining literally meant living longer. And, don't ever think combat and non-combat abilities are interchangeable - each class should have contributions in both fronts. BTW, the "martial class" myth exists only for the fighter; do the cleric, rogue and wizard have any deficiency in either area? And the fact that the fighter's deficient in both should show the hilarity of this belief ... As for my suggestion, include it or not at leisure, but don't think it's interchangeable for a social ability in any meaningful way, they're separate things.
jradd777 03-23-08, 09:59 PM	Please read again. I just suggested an ability that would give advantages for and versus flanking, which's what the concept seems good at. Ambushes, OTOH, just don't exist in gladiatorial combat AFAICT. And whatever you do, improved uncanny dodge's definitely the one to stay; if you leave only the first ability, you'll be doing it exactly backwards. Yeah, I read the suggestion, I just still think that he should get the dodges. Well, right, I realize that, but I feel that both are justified, either way. Just because within his realm he doesn't have to worry about surprise rounds doesn't mean that he isn't highly trained enough to still be successful in utilizing his dexterity to defend himself if he is ambushed. That's my point. He is such a good fighter in general that even if he were surprise attacked, he could react quickly enough not to lose his Dex to AC; he's trained so much. Just like martial arts, you train until the muscle memory is so good, it simply becomes instinct to react in the correct way to defend yourself, adapting in fractions of a second. I feel that the Gladiator is that well trained and deserves even uncanny dodge, not just the things that have to do with flanking. I feel that he could "uncannily dodge" just because he is that skilled at defending himself, it's muscle memory and instinct; he wouldn't have to think to act, he simply would and therefore, surprise would have a non-significant effect on him, even if he doesn't normally encounter it, he could handle it if he did. Metagaming is part of making a game element anyway [...] I kinda realize that but I don't like doing mine that way... I'm not sure why... maybe it is a flaw in the way that I do it... I feel like that's how classes become too powerful and so I'm very slow to power things up based on that part of designing, I feel like I shouldn't be adding something simply because I'm "meta-designing" but if I can justify them in other ways as well, then it should definitely happen, you know? [...] but for a less pithy response, the reason I suggest an earlier influence ability isn't the belief in a romanticized gladiator, it's just that we know there were people who really liked the matches - for those, just the fact that you won should be enough. Also, in Rome (Athas' another story), gladiators were trained not to kill (at least until getting asked to by the public); thus, being more entertaining literally meant living longer. And, don't ever think combat and non-combat abilities are interchangeable - each class should have contributions in both fronts. BTW, the "martial class" myth exists only for the fighter; do the cleric, rogue and wizard have any deficiency in either area? And the fact that the fighter's deficient in both should show the hilarity of this belief ... As for my suggestion, include it or not at leisure, but don't think it's interchangeable for a social ability in any meaningful way, they're separate things. Yeah, I'm going to try it out. I've been being a little too stubborn on the issue. Those classes do have some deficiencies when directly compared because of the poorer BAB, HD, some of them armor selection, etc or in non-combat cleric and wizard have low skills or restricted selections, etc. So, yes... maybe not marked deficiencies but some inherent deficiencies nonetheless. The fighter's deficiency is a screwed up situation, but I think that this Gladiator is MUCH better than the fighter anyway. The fighter is so bad/deficient because there aren't enough real solely "martial" things for him to do but I think that the ToB system really helps that out a TON. I think that there can be a decent and much less deficient "martial class" and that's sort of what this remake is supposed to help give rise to/get people thinking about, in some ways. How to open up the possibility of a good class that is purely a "martial class," I hope. What do you think of the change to "Are You Not Entertained?", BTW? Again, thanks for the interest...
Flamewarrior 03-25-08, 03:54 PM	Uncanny dodge: that argument could be valid for a crapload of classes either ... "Are you not entertained?" - I think it should be available every time people saw the gladiator win a fight.
jradd777 03-25-08, 04:56 PM	Uncanny dodge: that argument could be valid for a crapload of classes either ... I would think not a crapload but yes, it would open it up for a few classes... that might be justified in having it, IMO. I mean... if a class if focused heavily on mastering martial combat, they should have things like that that would be second nature for them. "Are you not entertained?" - I think it should be available every time people saw the gladiator win a fight. I'll look into it. It's a decent concept that needs polishing for details, which I'm sure you left open on purpose for me. Thanks. Perhaps, I'll meld it with bkdubs123's suggestion somehow or to a degree.