Class selection for party effectiveness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class selection for party effectiveness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Direwolf141
05-23-05, 01:50 AM Ok, Ive hit a dillema and the guys here seem cool and willing to help. Heres my problem, Im joining a large group (Ill make 6 players) but they seem to have everything but a rogue, its not that I dont like rogues they are just too fragile for close combat in this game.

Heres what Im looking at in the party:
A level 14 Elf Ranger/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer (not sure on other levels)
A level 12 Half-elf Ranger/Wizard/ Eldritch Knight (This is the primary arcane caster and an archer as well)
A level 7ish Vanaran (Oriental Adventures) Shaman (Divine caster also OA)
A level 8ish Human Fighter
A level 8-10ish Elf Fighter/Kensai
A level 6 Human Cleric

As you can see level difference is a big problem, so these low level guys have been fighting these massive monsters and characters are killed frequently. Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha

Ive thought about a Druid and a True Necromancer in particular and Ive looked through almost every Wizards D&D book and a few others in my library, and I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well.

I would be most grateful if I could get some help, Im just running out of ideas here. Thanks in advance!

edit: party level correction
OpheliaWhispers
05-23-05, 03:14 AM Ever think of a Rouge/Fighter?

ALL the skills, ALL the feats.

I have a Rogue/Fighter that I have been playing for a while now and I must say, it ROCKS! I do HAVE to concede that the ROLEPLAYING comes first for me, but that combo is fun and tough to beat!

Thats just my two big fat coppers though :D
Acirema
05-23-05, 03:26 AM Catfolk (LA +1. 40ft move, +4 DEX, +2 CHA, +1 Natural AC. RoW) Scout/Ranger. With Expeditious Dodge (+2 to AC after 40ft. or more move until the begining of your next turn) and Catfolk Pounce (Full attack after a charge) work together beautifully. Add Wpn Finesse and the 2 Wpn Fighting tree with Dervish to cap it off and you have a mean combat machine and one hell of a tracker/Rogueish char. :ayyyy!:
TheMagister
05-23-05, 04:09 AM I played a Fighter 1/Rogue 5 dwarf that was just totally kick ass in a battle.

I upped his bluff skill, took power attack, and wielded a two-handed weapon and wore the heaviest armor I could find.

Add in the Improved Feint feat and my enemies were facing a tank that could dish out pretty massive amounts of damage every round in only one strike.

Unfortunately, our DM screwed up (he admitted it) and we got TPK'd in a roleplaying fiasco.

You can focus your rogue skills into the non-physical skills like search, spot, listen, open locks, disable device, etc.; and stay away from the more traditional tumble, climb, jump stuff.

Also, invest in the hp increasing feats that you can get. They help with your durability.

You're a dirty-fighting fighter. That's all. You also happen to be handy in a dungeon as you can take a hit AND find the traps and such.

It's a neat character concept. I'm going to do it again someday.

TM
slade_caizer
05-23-05, 04:12 AM Ok, Ive hit a dillema and the guys here seem cool and willing to help. Heres my problem, Im joining a large group (Ill make 6 players) but they seem to have everything but a rogue, its not that I dont like rogues they are just too fragile for close combat in this game.

Heres what Im looking at in the party:
A level 14 Elf Ranger/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer (not sure on other levels)
A level 12 Half-elf Ranger/Wizard/ Eldritch Knight (This is the primary arcane caster and an archer as well)
A level 7ish Vanaran (Oriental Adventures) Shaman (Divine caster also OA)
A level 8ish Human Fighter
A level 8-10ish Elf Fighter/Kensai
A level 6 Human Cleric

As you can see level difference is a big problem, so these low level guys have been fighting these massive monsters and characters are killed frequently. Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha

Ive thought about a Druid and a True Necromancer in particular and Ive looked through almost every Wizards D&D book and a few others in my library, and I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well.

I would be most grateful if I could get some help, Im just running out of ideas here. Thanks in advance!

edit: party level correction

Hmm...I'm seeing something like CN [Probably Tiefling] with Str 14, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 8.

Go with something like Rogue4/Swashbuckler3/Warlock6/TelflammarShadowlord6.

Since you're starting at 9th I'd suggest either going down that line with a Rog3/Swash3/Wlk3 or starting with Rog3/Wlk6 and jumping into shadowlord next level. Your feat selection could look somthing like this

1st-Dodge
3rd-Mobility
6th-Spring Attack
9th-Blind-Fight
12th-Combat Expertise
15th-Improved Trip
16th-Weapon Finesse (Bonus)
18th-Combat Reflexes

But play with it as you like.
Particle_Man
05-23-05, 09:41 AM try a scout or rogue, but stick to archery stuff. This works better for the scout.
prototype00
05-24-05, 07:58 AM Okay I was wondering what books your DM was using, but considering that one of the characters is a kensai, then Complete Warrior is not out of the question.

Ever considered being a rogue(3)/swashbuckler(3)/invisible blade(3)? Max out the int and dex from the start, (I'd reccomend 18 for int and 16 for dex), and put a 13 in Cha because your going to be bluffing the heck out of people and probably don't want a penalty.

With the rogue(3) you get the grounding in skills that you need and 2d6 sneak attack and evasion, always nice.
With swashbuckler (3) you get grace (+1), eh, but I guess with evasion its okay. Weapon finesse for free, and this is the important one, insightful strike, add your int to damage (aren't you glad you maxed your int?)
Now onto invisible blade. Now the this might seem like hamstringing yourself, because they can't wear armour, but they get to add int to AC and if you get all 5 levels in it(just two more levels), you can sneak attack with every attack just by bluffing them. Plus they get an increase in sneak attack damage at a decent rate, so thats nice too.

For equipment, pick up a pair of decent daggers (the barbed daggers in complete adventurer are nasty), every dex boosting item you can find. (Gloves of Dex, mostly) and something to boost your int (probably headband of intellect) Now admittedly swashbuckler and invblade aren't the most skilled of classes, but with your superior intelligence, you have enough extra skill points to keep investing in the important stuff.

Pros:Not a bad melee thief, can keep up with skills
Cons:Not ever going to make a will save, AC might lag behind if you don't keep the dex and int up, no armor either (get the bracers of armor I guess)

But then again, these cons are probably the same cons you get playing a pure thief.

Trust me, when you finish invblade, the enemies are never going to see the shards of sneaky death snaking for their hearts. Who puts points in sense motive these days anyway, heh.
Dracspero
05-24-05, 11:41 AM Or don't worry about melee. You've got a pretty martial party already, so why not focus on classic rogue skills...stealth, traps, and locks. Take enough Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight, but otherwise just be a rogue who hides at the first sign of trouble and only comes out when he sees a good opening, or when the fight's over. Chaotic Neutral? Perfect for that kind of behaviour. Why should you risk yourself in a fight when you have companions who have trained specifically for those situations?

Edit: Of course, there's the UA rogue variant that removes the rogue's sneak attack and gives him fighter feat progression instead. Throw in two levels of fighter, and that's a lot of feats. (Human Fighter 2/Rogue Variant 2 would have 7 feats, 4 from the fighter list)
Tony Vargas
05-24-05, 01:16 PM Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha I think your DM is going to have to kill you. :smirk:

I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well. A tougher rogue is easy, just combine rogue with a stronger class like fighter or barbarian. It sounds like you'll have a good INT, and won't be called upon to be a master of every last traditional rogue skill, so it should be quite workable. If you want to be mostly rogue, barbarian is a good option, as even a single level gives you Rage, which can make you much more melee-capable in those situations where you can't actually avoid melee...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Direwolf141 05-23-05, 01:50 AM	Ok, Ive hit a dillema and the guys here seem cool and willing to help. Heres my problem, Im joining a large group (Ill make 6 players) but they seem to have everything but a rogue, its not that I dont like rogues they are just too fragile for close combat in this game. Heres what Im looking at in the party: A level 14 Elf Ranger/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer (not sure on other levels) A level 12 Half-elf Ranger/Wizard/ Eldritch Knight (This is the primary arcane caster and an archer as well) A level 7ish Vanaran (Oriental Adventures) Shaman (Divine caster also OA) A level 8ish Human Fighter A level 8-10ish Elf Fighter/Kensai A level 6 Human Cleric As you can see level difference is a big problem, so these low level guys have been fighting these massive monsters and characters are killed frequently. Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha Ive thought about a Druid and a True Necromancer in particular and Ive looked through almost every Wizards D&D book and a few others in my library, and I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well. I would be most grateful if I could get some help, Im just running out of ideas here. Thanks in advance! edit: party level correction
OpheliaWhispers 05-23-05, 03:14 AM	Ever think of a Rouge/Fighter? ALL the skills, ALL the feats. I have a Rogue/Fighter that I have been playing for a while now and I must say, it ROCKS! I do HAVE to concede that the ROLEPLAYING comes first for me, but that combo is fun and tough to beat! Thats just my two big fat coppers though :D
Acirema 05-23-05, 03:26 AM	Catfolk (LA +1. 40ft move, +4 DEX, +2 CHA, +1 Natural AC. RoW) Scout/Ranger. With Expeditious Dodge (+2 to AC after 40ft. or more move until the begining of your next turn) and Catfolk Pounce (Full attack after a charge) work together beautifully. Add Wpn Finesse and the 2 Wpn Fighting tree with Dervish to cap it off and you have a mean combat machine and one hell of a tracker/Rogueish char. :ayyyy!:
TheMagister 05-23-05, 04:09 AM	I played a Fighter 1/Rogue 5 dwarf that was just totally kick ass in a battle. I upped his bluff skill, took power attack, and wielded a two-handed weapon and wore the heaviest armor I could find. Add in the Improved Feint feat and my enemies were facing a tank that could dish out pretty massive amounts of damage every round in only one strike. Unfortunately, our DM screwed up (he admitted it) and we got TPK'd in a roleplaying fiasco. You can focus your rogue skills into the non-physical skills like search, spot, listen, open locks, disable device, etc.; and stay away from the more traditional tumble, climb, jump stuff. Also, invest in the hp increasing feats that you can get. They help with your durability. You're a dirty-fighting fighter. That's all. You also happen to be handy in a dungeon as you can take a hit AND find the traps and such. It's a neat character concept. I'm going to do it again someday. TM
slade_caizer 05-23-05, 04:12 AM	Ok, Ive hit a dillema and the guys here seem cool and willing to help. Heres my problem, Im joining a large group (Ill make 6 players) but they seem to have everything but a rogue, its not that I dont like rogues they are just too fragile for close combat in this game. Heres what Im looking at in the party: A level 14 Elf Ranger/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer (not sure on other levels) A level 12 Half-elf Ranger/Wizard/ Eldritch Knight (This is the primary arcane caster and an archer as well) A level 7ish Vanaran (Oriental Adventures) Shaman (Divine caster also OA) A level 8ish Human Fighter A level 8-10ish Elf Fighter/Kensai A level 6 Human Cleric As you can see level difference is a big problem, so these low level guys have been fighting these massive monsters and characters are killed frequently. Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha Ive thought about a Druid and a True Necromancer in particular and Ive looked through almost every Wizards D&D book and a few others in my library, and I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well. I would be most grateful if I could get some help, Im just running out of ideas here. Thanks in advance! edit: party level correction Hmm...I'm seeing something like CN [Probably Tiefling] with Str 14, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 8. Go with something like Rogue4/Swashbuckler3/Warlock6/TelflammarShadowlord6. Since you're starting at 9th I'd suggest either going down that line with a Rog3/Swash3/Wlk3 or starting with Rog3/Wlk6 and jumping into shadowlord next level. Your feat selection could look somthing like this 1st-Dodge 3rd-Mobility 6th-Spring Attack 9th-Blind-Fight 12th-Combat Expertise 15th-Improved Trip 16th-Weapon Finesse (Bonus) 18th-Combat Reflexes But play with it as you like.
Particle_Man 05-23-05, 09:41 AM	try a scout or rogue, but stick to archery stuff. This works better for the scout.
prototype00 05-24-05, 07:58 AM	Okay I was wondering what books your DM was using, but considering that one of the characters is a kensai, then Complete Warrior is not out of the question. Ever considered being a rogue(3)/swashbuckler(3)/invisible blade(3)? Max out the int and dex from the start, (I'd reccomend 18 for int and 16 for dex), and put a 13 in Cha because your going to be bluffing the heck out of people and probably don't want a penalty. With the rogue(3) you get the grounding in skills that you need and 2d6 sneak attack and evasion, always nice. With swashbuckler (3) you get grace (+1), eh, but I guess with evasion its okay. Weapon finesse for free, and this is the important one, insightful strike, add your int to damage (aren't you glad you maxed your int?) Now onto invisible blade. Now the this might seem like hamstringing yourself, because they can't wear armour, but they get to add int to AC and if you get all 5 levels in it(just two more levels), you can sneak attack with every attack just by bluffing them. Plus they get an increase in sneak attack damage at a decent rate, so thats nice too. For equipment, pick up a pair of decent daggers (the barbed daggers in complete adventurer are nasty), every dex boosting item you can find. (Gloves of Dex, mostly) and something to boost your int (probably headband of intellect) Now admittedly swashbuckler and invblade aren't the most skilled of classes, but with your superior intelligence, you have enough extra skill points to keep investing in the important stuff. Pros:Not a bad melee thief, can keep up with skills Cons:Not ever going to make a will save, AC might lag behind if you don't keep the dex and int up, no armor either (get the bracers of armor I guess) But then again, these cons are probably the same cons you get playing a pure thief. Trust me, when you finish invblade, the enemies are never going to see the shards of sneaky death snaking for their hearts. Who puts points in sense motive these days anyway, heh.
Dracspero 05-24-05, 11:41 AM	Or don't worry about melee. You've got a pretty martial party already, so why not focus on classic rogue skills...stealth, traps, and locks. Take enough Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight, but otherwise just be a rogue who hides at the first sign of trouble and only comes out when he sees a good opening, or when the fight's over. Chaotic Neutral? Perfect for that kind of behaviour. Why should you risk yourself in a fight when you have companions who have trained specifically for those situations? Edit: Of course, there's the UA rogue variant that removes the rogue's sneak attack and gives him fighter feat progression instead. Throw in two levels of fighter, and that's a lot of feats. (Human Fighter 2/Rogue Variant 2 would have 7 feats, 4 from the fighter list)
Tony Vargas 05-24-05, 01:16 PM	Thus the rogue problem. Ive been given a lvl 9 NPC thats easy to work in. Problem is I must be CN and I have the following numbers that I can place for stats: 18, 10, 11, 16, 13, 14 I also have the following racial adjustments (sorry I cant post the race my DM would kill me if I did as it gives away a big story line) +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha I think your DM is going to have to kill you. :smirk: I still just cant find a class that fits or a tougher rogue. I need the open locks skill as well. A tougher rogue is easy, just combine rogue with a stronger class like fighter or barbarian. It sounds like you'll have a good INT, and won't be called upon to be a master of every last traditional rogue skill, so it should be quite workable. If you want to be mostly rogue, barbarian is a good option, as even a single level gives you Rage, which can make you much more melee-capable in those situations where you can't actually avoid melee...