Class Synergy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Synergy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Weiser_Cain
12-02-04, 09:17 AM One of the things that annoys me about multiclassing is that taking a class in one level feels like you just took a class in that level.
I want to try and make multiclassing a bit more attractive(to me at least) without Prc's. All I've come up with is adding feats that let you blend spellcasting and combat and a seedling of an Idea about blending arcane and divine magic(No spell failure in armor tough I wanted to make that what you get for some fighter classes, and I can't think of what arcane magic would bring to the mix to make divine magic better).
Any ideas of other(better) ways to make the classes work better together? The overall idea is that everything a character does is influenced by every class he has equally.
Mirikon
12-02-04, 09:56 AM Hmm. Interesting idea, but honestly it sounds like a lot more work than most players and DMs would be willing to go through. The current system is nice and easy like that. No sense in overcomplicating things that aren't broken.
Thorak
12-02-04, 10:56 AM Something that might work would be to allow character level to affect spellcasting, independently of caster levels. Say, any levels in a class with a different magic (divine vs arcane) or non-casting classes increase the DC 1/2 as fast as caster levels would. So a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 casts spells as a 10th level wizard, so his fireball does 10d6, but he's still gotten canny about a few things from his Fighter levels, so his DC is higher than a normal 10th level caster's would be. This would obviously help non-blaster mages more, since their spells' effects tend to not increase with caster level as much, but what the hey.

The only problem is I don't see why this change wouldn't apply to PrCs too, save that generally it's better to be a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Spellsword 10 than a Fighter 10/Wizard 10, anyway.
WihHizwind
12-02-04, 11:05 AM All I've come up with is adding feats that let you blend spellcasting and combat and a seedling of an Idea about blending arcane and divine magic(No spell failure in armor tough

Check out the Mystic Theurge in the DMG (Essentially a class that gives you +1 spellcasting in 1 divine and 1 arcane class, with d4 HD)
Or, check out the Geomancer, in the Complete Divine. VERY ruly PrC. Once again, you need arcane and divine magic (usually a druid/sorcerer), and as you gain levels you can mix and match rules from divine and arcane spellcasting. You also get drift (become closer to nature - grow claws, tail etc). Really nifty stuff.

EDIT: Oh, and Thorak, I know a feat that would help you out. It's from Deities and Demigods from memory, it increases your caster level for one spellcasting class by 4, to the exception that it cannot be higher than your HD...ie a Sorc 3/Fighter 3 would have a CL of a Sorc 6, assuming he has no other HD...
Weiser_Cain
12-02-04, 11:50 AM The only problem is I don't see why this change wouldn't apply to PrCs too, save that generally it's better to be a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Spellsword 10 than a Fighter 10/Wizard 10, anyway.
I'm trying to do away with Prc's to sort of end up with a natural prc...not sure that came out right.
Zelphi
12-02-04, 12:04 PM Then make up some multiclass like PrC's for all the base classes and Multiclass that way.
caeruleus
12-02-04, 12:14 PM Unearthed Arcana has a variant called "magic rating" that replaces caster level. It works kinda like base attack bonus. Every class increases in magic rating (even if very slowly) so multiclassing with a spellcaster isn't as bad as it would otherwise be.

Also, have you thought of making up new core classes that combine current class features?
Mirikon
12-02-04, 02:58 PM EDIT: Oh, and Thorak, I know a feat that would help you out. It's from Deities and Demigods from memory, it increases your caster level for one spellcasting class by 4, to the exception that it cannot be higher than your HD...ie a Sorc 3/Fighter 3 would have a CL of a Sorc 6, assuming he has no other HD...

Actually, it is Practised Spellcaster, and it is in Complete Divine. You can take it multiple times, each time applying it to another spellcasting class.
spamfiltre
12-02-04, 05:15 PM 1) why do you want to do away with PrCs?

There is a PrC for nearly every combination now (mystic theurge, arcane trickster, spellsword, etc.)

They do what you want. It would be easier to reduce the entry requirements than to come up with a new system.

2) Gestalt characters. It ramps up the power level a bit, but gestalt basically gives you what you want, as well.

You can make up your own system, but it's bound to be broken in some capacity. Not that there are no broken core rules, but using published material will help reduce the potential problems.
Zathyr
12-02-04, 09:24 PM I don't think gestalt really gets what the original poster is going for. Seems like Geomancer-type abilities is the goal, without any PrC levels. I'd say take a look at Geomancer for some basic ideas and maybe combine it with that "magic rating" thing, either giving certain abilities automatically at a high enough rating, or allowing the abilities as feats.
BW0222
12-02-04, 09:38 PM >I want to try and make multiclassing a bit more attractive(to me at least)
>without Prc's.

Why? It players don't want to do something why change the rules to make it more attractive? Let them play with what they've got. Is there some reason you need players to take multiple classes?

The other option is in-game.

If players don't have a wide variety of skills and abilities, then it's fair to penalize them at times. Don't meta-game your encounters and try keeping them varied. If folks honestly can't pick a lock, they honestly can't get past a door. If folks don't have survival, they get lost going through the forest. If folks don't have climb, they aren't making it through the mountains. That said, players can often find ways around having to multi-class -- invisibility and knock reduce the need for a rogue, fly gets you over mountains, etc.
Arcane Guyver
12-02-04, 09:49 PM Ahah. I was thinking the other day about this, and actually thought of making a topic about it. Too late, eh? :)

I was thinking of a group of feats that worked like so:

DEVOTED SPELLCASTER [MULTICLASS]
Prerequisites: Three levels in any one spellcasting class.
Benefit: The next three levels of any class you take gain the additional benefit of spellcasting from your initial spellcasting class. Example: A 3rd level wizard takes this feat. As of 4th level, the wizard multiclasses into a fighter, but is treated as a 4th-level wizard for purposes of caster level, spell progression and spells per day. The wizard could gain two more non-wizard levels and be treated as a 6th-level wizard for purposes of casting wizard spells.
Special: This feat only grants spellcasting progression, and does not affect familiar or animal companion advancement, wild shape, turn/rebuke undead, or any other class features.
You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you must take three more levels in one spellcasting class.

Others (keep in mind I'm using variants, so some classes aren't available and others have different styles, like the monk from http://wakinglands.com)
Barbarian (a feat that allows for rage and damage reduction progression)
Druid (wild shape progression)
Fighter (special abilities progression - yes, I'm using a variant)
Monk (AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Strike damage...maybe Ki Strike or Flurry progressions?)
Psions and the like (power manifestation progression)
Ranger (Favored Enemy & Terrain, maybe animal companion too?)
Rogue (Sneak Attack)

Obviously some tweaking is needed, and the players need to be cool and unabusive (you're letting them multiclass better than before). This also assumes that prestige classes are at least very rare and much, much harder to qualify for. Thinking about how some would exploit this is giving me a headache, so I'll just leave it at this for now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Weiser_Cain 12-02-04, 09:17 AM	One of the things that annoys me about multiclassing is that taking a class in one level feels like you just took a class in that level. I want to try and make multiclassing a bit more attractive(to me at least) without Prc's. All I've come up with is adding feats that let you blend spellcasting and combat and a seedling of an Idea about blending arcane and divine magic(No spell failure in armor tough I wanted to make that what you get for some fighter classes, and I can't think of what arcane magic would bring to the mix to make divine magic better). Any ideas of other(better) ways to make the classes work better together? The overall idea is that everything a character does is influenced by every class he has equally.
Mirikon 12-02-04, 09:56 AM	Hmm. Interesting idea, but honestly it sounds like a lot more work than most players and DMs would be willing to go through. The current system is nice and easy like that. No sense in overcomplicating things that aren't broken.
Thorak 12-02-04, 10:56 AM	Something that might work would be to allow character level to affect spellcasting, independently of caster levels. Say, any levels in a class with a different magic (divine vs arcane) or non-casting classes increase the DC 1/2 as fast as caster levels would. So a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 casts spells as a 10th level wizard, so his fireball does 10d6, but he's still gotten canny about a few things from his Fighter levels, so his DC is higher than a normal 10th level caster's would be. This would obviously help non-blaster mages more, since their spells' effects tend to not increase with caster level as much, but what the hey. The only problem is I don't see why this change wouldn't apply to PrCs too, save that generally it's better to be a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Spellsword 10 than a Fighter 10/Wizard 10, anyway.
WihHizwind 12-02-04, 11:05 AM	All I've come up with is adding feats that let you blend spellcasting and combat and a seedling of an Idea about blending arcane and divine magic(No spell failure in armor tough Check out the Mystic Theurge in the DMG (Essentially a class that gives you +1 spellcasting in 1 divine and 1 arcane class, with d4 HD) Or, check out the Geomancer, in the Complete Divine. VERY ruly PrC. Once again, you need arcane and divine magic (usually a druid/sorcerer), and as you gain levels you can mix and match rules from divine and arcane spellcasting. You also get drift (become closer to nature - grow claws, tail etc). Really nifty stuff. EDIT: Oh, and Thorak, I know a feat that would help you out. It's from Deities and Demigods from memory, it increases your caster level for one spellcasting class by 4, to the exception that it cannot be higher than your HD...ie a Sorc 3/Fighter 3 would have a CL of a Sorc 6, assuming he has no other HD...
Weiser_Cain 12-02-04, 11:50 AM	The only problem is I don't see why this change wouldn't apply to PrCs too, save that generally it's better to be a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Spellsword 10 than a Fighter 10/Wizard 10, anyway. I'm trying to do away with Prc's to sort of end up with a natural prc...not sure that came out right.
Zelphi 12-02-04, 12:04 PM	Then make up some multiclass like PrC's for all the base classes and Multiclass that way.
caeruleus 12-02-04, 12:14 PM	Unearthed Arcana has a variant called "magic rating" that replaces caster level. It works kinda like base attack bonus. Every class increases in magic rating (even if very slowly) so multiclassing with a spellcaster isn't as bad as it would otherwise be. Also, have you thought of making up new core classes that combine current class features?
Mirikon 12-02-04, 02:58 PM	EDIT: Oh, and Thorak, I know a feat that would help you out. It's from Deities and Demigods from memory, it increases your caster level for one spellcasting class by 4, to the exception that it cannot be higher than your HD...ie a Sorc 3/Fighter 3 would have a CL of a Sorc 6, assuming he has no other HD... Actually, it is Practised Spellcaster, and it is in Complete Divine. You can take it multiple times, each time applying it to another spellcasting class.
spamfiltre 12-02-04, 05:15 PM	1) why do you want to do away with PrCs? There is a PrC for nearly every combination now (mystic theurge, arcane trickster, spellsword, etc.) They do what you want. It would be easier to reduce the entry requirements than to come up with a new system. 2) Gestalt characters. It ramps up the power level a bit, but gestalt basically gives you what you want, as well. You can make up your own system, but it's bound to be broken in some capacity. Not that there are no broken core rules, but using published material will help reduce the potential problems.
Zathyr 12-02-04, 09:24 PM	I don't think gestalt really gets what the original poster is going for. Seems like Geomancer-type abilities is the goal, without any PrC levels. I'd say take a look at Geomancer for some basic ideas and maybe combine it with that "magic rating" thing, either giving certain abilities automatically at a high enough rating, or allowing the abilities as feats.
BW0222 12-02-04, 09:38 PM	>I want to try and make multiclassing a bit more attractive(to me at least) >without Prc's. Why? It players don't want to do something why change the rules to make it more attractive? Let them play with what they've got. Is there some reason you need players to take multiple classes? The other option is in-game. If players don't have a wide variety of skills and abilities, then it's fair to penalize them at times. Don't meta-game your encounters and try keeping them varied. If folks honestly can't pick a lock, they honestly can't get past a door. If folks don't have survival, they get lost going through the forest. If folks don't have climb, they aren't making it through the mountains. That said, players can often find ways around having to multi-class -- invisibility and knock reduce the need for a rogue, fly gets you over mountains, etc.
Arcane Guyver 12-02-04, 09:49 PM	Ahah. I was thinking the other day about this, and actually thought of making a topic about it. Too late, eh? :) I was thinking of a group of feats that worked like so: DEVOTED SPELLCASTER [MULTICLASS] Prerequisites: Three levels in any one spellcasting class. Benefit: The next three levels of any class you take gain the additional benefit of spellcasting from your initial spellcasting class. Example: A 3rd level wizard takes this feat. As of 4th level, the wizard multiclasses into a fighter, but is treated as a 4th-level wizard for purposes of caster level, spell progression and spells per day. The wizard could gain two more non-wizard levels and be treated as a 6th-level wizard for purposes of casting wizard spells. Special: This feat only grants spellcasting progression, and does not affect familiar or animal companion advancement, wild shape, turn/rebuke undead, or any other class features. You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you must take three more levels in one spellcasting class. Others (keep in mind I'm using variants, so some classes aren't available and others have different styles, like the monk from http://wakinglands.com) Barbarian (a feat that allows for rage and damage reduction progression) Druid (wild shape progression) Fighter (special abilities progression - yes, I'm using a variant) Monk (AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Strike damage...maybe Ki Strike or Flurry progressions?) Psions and the like (power manifestation progression) Ranger (Favored Enemy & Terrain, maybe animal companion too?) Rogue (Sneak Attack) Obviously some tweaking is needed, and the players need to be cool and unabusive (you're letting them multiclass better than before). This also assumes that prestige classes are at least very rare and much, much harder to qualify for. Thinking about how some would exploit this is giving me a headache, so I'll just leave it at this for now.